White Wolf's World of Darkness

[The Laurent]

I am exceptionally unsympathetic to Hunting Code abuse. Like, massively so.

It is meant for hard-bitten lone vampire hunters who have decided that vampires aren't people, so all their alterations are along the veins of adding "unless they're a vampire" to sins. Use of those rules for "tee hee, I'm an Ashford Abbey serial killing rapist but my Morality is two or higher because I decided such things aren't sins" is stupid. No, you're just a Morality 0-1 monster and you don't get to escape rolling for derangements that way.

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Huh, interesting. It also seems like something that could make an interesting NPC plot point.

Like, imagine some hard-bitten witch-hunter who has, "Witches aren't *really* people, not like you and me" written as part of his code, but then has some sort of incident that changes his mind and suddenly his Morality drops to where it'd actually be and he's horrified and falling apart.

 

[EarthScorpion]

Huh, interesting. It also seems like something that could make an interesting NPC plot point.

Like, imagine some hard-bitten witch-hunter who has, "Witches aren't *really* people, not like you and me" written as part of his code, but then has some sort of incident that changes his mind and suddenly his Morality drops to where it'd actually be and he's horrified and falling apart.

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Oh yeah, if I was GMing a Hunter game, I'd totally independently track a Hunter's actual Morality under the layers of delusion, so when that vampire who's a five days dead neonate pleads for their life and they fail a Resolve + Composure check, their layers of delusion crack and their real Morality reasserts itself.

 

[Wade Garrett]

Ashford Abbey is just...

I like the idea of playing someone who hunts monsters not because "Saving people, hunting things, the family business" but because "Harrumph Great White Hunter most dangerous game is that which hunts back donchaknow", Colonel Zaroff style, but you know...that means you're the Great White Hunter, you give the rotters you're hunting a sporting chance, you toss a few thousand dollars to the families of the natives that got mangled in your hunting, basically a Kipling caricature of a pukka sahib on safari in suburbia instead of 19th century India or Africa.

Which is still all kinds of bad but (IMO) is going to end up in a slightly better part of Hell than a "Teeheehee rape! Murder!" Ashford.

 

[shenron]

I like the idea of playing someone who hunts monsters not because "Saving people, hunting things, the family business" but because "Harrumph Great White Hunter most dangerous game is that which hunts back donchaknow", Colonel Zaroff style, but you know...that means you're the Great White Hunter, you give the rotters you're hunting a sporting chance, you toss a few thousand dollars to the families of the natives that got mangled in your hunting, basically a Kipling caricature of a pukka sahib on safari in suburbia instead of 19th century India or Africa.

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That's more the Bear Lodge than the Ashwood Abbey though.

Not like you couldn't have an Abbey Hunter like that, if you want, I guess.

 

[EarthScorpion]

Honestly, I think one of the ways that Ashford Abbey suffers most is the fact that the game line tries to pretend that Hunters are one class of thing, because it's trying to make them more than a fancy blue-line book.

They're not. They're really not.

There is literally no difference between the Aegis Kai Doru and an OC organisation of mortals who use Reliquary relics to safeguard them. There is no difference between TFV and a military taskforce that gets some of the near-future weapons in Armoury Reloaded. And VASCU could recruit Second Sight psychics and not tell the difference between them and their own psychics. When it gets down to it, that just demonstrates how ridiculous the "we're trying to be special" thing of Hunters is.

And once you've dismissed that properly, then you can go "Wait, so why isn't the Ashford Abbey lousy with ritual magicians and satanists who get powers from carrying out black masses?". Because, really, there is no good reason at all that the Abbey has a moral objection to a whole group of merit-bought powers. No, they should be loading themselves up with Reliquary stuff, practicing ritual magic for lulzs, and worshipping demons for investments. After all, it's all power - and it's all a taboo.

Then they don't have to be as much the sex-murder maniacs, because the taboos they're breaking are much more "player character acceptable". They're the Hunters who are hunting for power, not to kill things. They want to find witches and learn from them. They want to capture vampires and inject themselves with ghoul blood to stay young and beautiful. They want to steal books of magical lore from rare bookshops, and they want to take demonic icons themselves and invoke the demons so they get help with business takeovers.

Make them a splat of "Oh god, that sounds like a PC plan" and suddenly they're much more player-OK.

(And then you can start asking questions like "So, why don't VASCU get to use Advanced Armoury stuff?")

 

[Wade Garrett]

The vibe I got off Bear Lodge was more...Jim Bridger, Kit Carson, rugged individualist frontiersman wipe out the buffalo and Trail of Tears the locals. American flavored Imperialism instead of the British brand.

And the Abbey strikes me as more of a grimdark Hellfire Club than a gathering of proper pukka sahibs, some things just aren't done, old chap, all that opium and dancing around without your knickers...tsk tsk.

 

[TenfoldShields]

VASCU

psychic serial-killer-hunting fbi agents go go go go

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The vibe I got off Bear Lodge was more...Jim Bridger, Kit Carson, rugged individualist frontiersman wipe out the buffalo and Trail of Tears the locals. American flavored Imperialism instead of the British brand.

And the Abbey strikes me as more of a grimdark Hellfire Club than a gathering of proper pukka sahibs, some things just aren't done, old chap, all that opium and dancing around without your knickers...tsk tsk.

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Nah Ashwood Abbey is more like...they're the Dorian Greys. The Libertine types who are so jaded from conventional indulgences like drugs and sex and whatever darkness they've dabbled in but don't want to stop living it up and hunting the supernatural makes them feel alive.

So they, like, try to hunt Changelings and rape werewolves and shit. 'Cause it's a new sort of thrill.

(It's sorta a bad sign that I'm legitimately not sure if a dude in their stuff tried to rape a Gauru-form or just tried to skin it alive),

Sure there might be some older, more ostensibly dignified types who are like you said. But at their core they're basically sadists who do it 'cause it's fun and they have enough money that they've already done everything else.

Tbh I'm not sure why they aren't Slashers.

 

[The Laurent]

Nah Ashwood Abbey is more like...they're the Dorian Greys. The Libertine types who are so jaded from conventional indulgences like drugs and sex and whatever darkness they've dabbled in but don't want to stop living it up and hunting the supernatural makes them feel alive.

So they, like, try to hunt Changelings and rape werewolves and shit. 'Cause it's a new sort of thrill.

(It's sorta a bad sign that I'm legitimately not sure if a dude in their stuff tried to rape a Gauru-form or just tried to skin it alive),

Sure there might be some older, more ostensibly dignified types who are like you said. But at their core they're basically sadists who do it 'cause it's fun and they have enough money that they've already done everything else.

Tbh I'm not sure why they aren't Slashers.

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...I have no idea how they'd even find Changelings.

 

[TenfoldShields]

...I have no idea how they'd even find Changelings.

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Well it's Hunter so they're like off brand probably copy-right-infringing Fairy Persons.

People-Who-Aren't-Found.

Chongelings

 

[Wade Garrett]

Nah Ashwood Abbey is more like...they're the Dorian Greys. The Libertine types who are so jaded from conventional indulgences like drugs and sex and whatever darkness they've dabbled in but don't want to stop living it up and hunting the supernatural makes them feel alive.

So they, like, try to hunt Changelings and rape werewolves and shit. 'Cause it's a new sort of thrill.

(It's sorta a bad sign that I'm legitimately not sure if a dude in their stuff tried to rape a Gauru-form or just tried to skin it alive),

Sure there might be some older, more ostensibly dignified types who are like you said. But at their core they're basically sadists who do it 'cause it's fun and they have enough money that they've already done everything else.

Tbh I'm not sure why they aren't Slashers.

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So...they're the Hellfire Club (bunch of rich jaded British upper crusters who decided to throw black magic and blasphemy into their orgies because plain old orgies were starting to be passe and bland) and thus a completely different bag of stereotypes than the Stiff Upper Lip Gentleman Big Game Hunter, which is...what I've been saying the whole time.

 

[EarthScorpion]

Well it's Hunter so they're like off brand probably copy-right-infringing Fairy Persons.

People-Who-Aren't-Found.

Chongelings

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This is Hunter. So Transformers Shifters Alterings probably drop the Mask if they touch iron.

... actually, honestly, I'm not sure why holding iron doesn't drop the Mask for Changelings as it stands, considering that what it works against is fairy illusions and defences.

EDIT: Well, obviously I know why at a gameplay level - there's way too much iron in the world for them to remain hidden if accidentally touching a nail reveals that you're a giant blue troll. I just... hmm, kind of feel that Changelings should want to avoid touching iron. Maybe skin contact burns them doing bashing damage.

 

[The Laurent]

An interesting alternate rule (don't think I'd want it to be standard, but it'd be good for some games) is that a Changeling injured with true/cold/whatever iron[1], like stabbed, has their mask start to randomly go haywire until they can heal from the injury. Because the wound remembers cold iron and is busy freaking the fuck out.

[1] If you define Iron as 'anything with iron in it' then it really makes Changelings nigh-impossible to play by giving them a bane that makes the worst Mekhet banes look as if they're nothing, and gives it to them from the very start. Thus, the game defines it a bit more narrowly than that.

 

[Brother Mouse]

An interesting alternate rule (don't think I'd want it to be standard, but it'd be good for some games) is that a Changeling injured with true/cold/whatever iron[1], like stabbed, has their mask start to randomly go haywire until they can heal from the injury. Because the wound remembers cold iron and is busy freaking the fuck out.

[1] If you define Iron as 'anything with iron in it' then it really makes Changelings nigh-impossible to play by giving them a bane that makes the worst Mekhet banes look as if they're nothing, and gives it to them from the very start. Thus, the game defines it a bit more narrowly than that.

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Its nit just iron. Its Cold Iron. Which is defined by GMs discretion

 

[cmwatford]

An interesting alternate rule (don't think I'd want it to be standard, but it'd be good for some games) is that a Changeling injured with true/cold/whatever iron[1], like stabbed, has their mask start to randomly go haywire until they can heal from the injury. Because the wound remembers cold iron and is busy freaking the fuck out.

[1] If you define Iron as 'anything with iron in it' then it really makes Changelings nigh-impossible to play by giving them a bane that makes the worst Mekhet banes look as if they're nothing, and gives it to them from the very start. Thus, the game defines it a bit more narrowly than that.

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Yeah, the iron thing is kind of a bitch. There's no good common sense way to rule it either. You can't say it can only be mostly pure iron because steel , ironically, is purer iron than wrought iron. The 'cold iron' thing was meant to make the bane less available but it was inconsistent in what counted as 'cold iron'. I feel like the smart thing is to just limit it to wrought, and maybe cast iron, as that is what most people think of when iron is mentioned.

 

[EarthScorpion]

Its nit just iron. Its Cold Iron. Which is defined by GMs discretion

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"Cold Iron" as a distinct concept is exactly the same thing as "cold steel" and "hot lead" - ie, a thing that people say to make their weapons sound more badass.

It is not a well-defined thing with real mythological anecdotes. Actual mythological fae couldn't cross a threshold where a peasant hung a horseshoe up over the door.

So I have very little time for "oh, no, you need a special kind of iron". That's why I quite like the idea of bashing damage for Changelings touching any kind of iron, rather than super-duper-special iron being a thing. It means it's a widely spread annoyance - and more severe for True Fae - rather than being too much like a reskinned "silver vs werewolves" thing.

(And then steel is weaker, but still effectively gives them a rash with prolonged contact so Changelings will try to avoid touching steel. And instead will get nice fancy pretty wooden handles for their guns and wear gloves when they can't avoid it.)

 

[Chehrazad]

(And then steel is weaker, but still effectively gives them a rash with prolonged contact so Changelings will try to avoid touching steel. And instead will get nice fancy pretty wooden handles for their guns and wear gloves when they can't avoid it.)

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This is also a greater reason to use Bite of The Wooden Fang, so that's great.

 

[hyzmarca]

Honestly, I think one of the ways that Ashford Abbey suffers most is the fact that the game line tries to pretend that Hunters are one class of thing, because it's trying to make them more than a fancy blue-line book.

They're not. They're really not.

There is literally no difference between the Aegis Kai Doru and an OC organisation of mortals who use Reliquary relics to safeguard them. There is no difference between TFV and a military taskforce that gets some of the near-future weapons in Armoury Reloaded. And VASCU could recruit Second Sight psychics and not tell the difference between them and their own psychics. When it gets down to it, that just demonstrates how ridiculous the "we're trying to be special" thing of Hunters is.

And once you've dismissed that properly, then you can go "Wait, so why isn't the Ashford Abbey lousy with ritual magicians and satanists who get powers from carrying out black masses?". Because, really, there is no good reason at all that the Abbey has a moral objection to a whole group of merit-bought powers. No, they should be loading themselves up with Reliquary stuff, practicing ritual magic for lulzs, and worshipping demons for investments. After all, it's all power - and it's all a taboo.

Then they don't have to be as much the sex-murder maniacs, because the taboos they're breaking are much more "player character acceptable". They're the Hunters who are hunting for power, not to kill things. They want to find witches and learn from them. They want to capture vampires and inject themselves with ghoul blood to stay young and beautiful. They want to steal books of magical lore from rare bookshops, and they want to take demonic icons themselves and invoke the demons so they get help with business takeovers.

Make them a splat of "Oh god, that sounds like a PC plan" and suddenly they're much more player-OK.

(And then you can start asking questions like "So, why don't VASCU get to use Advanced Armoury stuff?")

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The Ashwood Abbey is basically just a Hellfire Club. So one way to do it is to treat them like Marvel's Hellfire club. You've got an outer circle of rich muggles who think they rule the world, and are in it just for the kinky sex and drugs, and these people provide funds for the Inner Circle, who know that they don't rule the world, but want to, and have substantial supernatural power.

Its nit just iron. Its Cold Iron. Which is defined by GMs discretion

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Cold iron is just iron. Its not an alternate type of iron. It's just poetic phrasing.

And, really, Iron hurts fey because it is a symbolic representation of man's domination over nature. And faeries are, at their core, a type of nature spirit. Hypothetically, they should also be burned by aluminum and plastic, too, these days. But back when the folklore was written, iron was the big, new mass produced metal that was in everything high-tech.

 

[Kiriel]

"Cold Iron" as a distinct concept is exactly the same thing as "cold steel" and "hot lead" - ie, a thing that people say to make their weapons sound more badass.

It is not a well-defined thing with real mythological anecdotes. Actual mythological fae couldn't cross a threshold where a peasant hung a horseshoe up over the door.

So I have very little time for "oh, no, you need a special kind of iron". That's why I quite like the idea of bashing damage for Changelings touching any kind of iron, rather than super-duper-special iron being a thing. It means it's a widely spread annoyance - and more severe for True Fae - rather than being too much like a reskinned "silver vs werewolves" thing.

(And then steel is weaker, but still effectively gives them a rash with prolonged contact so Changelings will try to avoid touching steel. And instead will get nice fancy pretty wooden handles for their guns and wear gloves when they can't avoid it.)

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Reminds me of the house rule I implemented in an old game. The element iron causes damage by contact, like how sunlight hurts vampires. If the object is 100% Iron, then aggravated damage per second/turn. Anything that was alloyed with Iron tends to have certain reactions. I can't remember the exact specifics, but it did lead to the PCs learning some metallurgy to figure things out. That and filling blunderbusses with iron nails.

 

[GardenerBriareus]

Fuck I love the Null Mysteriis then, scientists who attempt to make sense of the World of Darkness, attempting to unify the alien principles of the supernatural with accepted scientific thought.

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I, on the other hand, hate them with a fiery passion. The impression I got from them was that they aren't actually scientists, they're clueless dipshits who harm everything they touch - if they aren't slicing open innocent Prometheans to try and find proof that they totally run on Luminiferous Ether, they're attempting genocide on Mages because their powers can't be slotted into their moronic personal Theory of Everything, and thus are a cosmic mistake that must be removed from the evidence pool.

Basically, they're Lemurians from Genius: the Transgression, but without the semi-interesting idea of them being localized maelstroms of reality-warping solipsism. They're just assholes.

Really, the only groups I could see myself playing a PC from would be the Loyalists of Thule*, the Lucifuge**, Aegis Kai Doru***, the Union****, and maybe the Ascending Ones*****. I love the weird surgical superpowers that Cheiron operatives get, but the sheer grimdark of the premise there is just a bit too much for me to swallow without near-lethal levels of black comedy to compensate.



* The whole idea of this tangled mess where the elders don't like to talk about the past, yet also have little clear vision of the future to pass on to their successors, creating this problem where the organization has all this stored knowledge and infrastructure just... sitting around for someone to stand up and say "Alright, we'll use it to do this!" is just dripping with narrative possibilities and story hooks for a party.

** Part of it's just that they aren't creepy scumbags like, well, a distressing number of the compacts (looking at you, Ashwood Abbey and Cheiron Corp.), but the probably-corrupting superpowers do a lot to draw my interest. This is the compact I'd use to play Hellblazer-esque games, where everything is fucked forever and you're probably going to Hell... or Blue Exorcist meets demented sentai show.

*** This is basically how you do Warehouse 13 or The Librarians in WoD, which I'd enjoy. Also there's the zealots in the Sword, who were practically created to rush headlong at some ancient threat and then get splattered all over the walls by it, a few hours before the party arrives to pick over the remains and try to figure out what went wrong and how you're actually supposed to get rid of the thing.

**** Here's your hardcore, no saves, FINAL DESTINATION campaign of Hunter: just you, some crude homemade explosives, a trunk full of questionably-legal firearms, and a bevy of repurposed power tools against the horrors of the night. Make sure to bring spare character sheets, everyone, 'cuz this is gonna get messy.

***** I'm a huge sucker for alchemy and alchemy-flavored mystic nonsense; it's part of why Promethean is my favorite line in the nWoD, aside from it being absolutely incredible. The Ascending Ones are also my chosen "amoral PC" compact, since their habit of running drugs to support all the Gnostic sorcery creates a nice contrast for making morally dubious characters without going full Ashwood Abbey.

So I have very little time for "oh, no, you need a special kind of iron". That's why I quite like the idea of bashing damage for Changelings touching any kind of iron, rather than super-duper-special iron being a thing. It means it's a widely spread annoyance - and more severe for True Fae - rather than being too much like a reskinned "silver vs werewolves" thing.

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I'd say it's going too far. If your players are going to start bruising and losing skin if they touch the wrong railing or sit on the wrong park bench, that's going to fuck up their ability to stay covert for little narrative reason - their lives are already messed up enough without adding an iron allergy.

And, well, the discussion of 'cold iron' in the supplement I read boiled down to "industrial alloys = meh, cast iron = good, lump of iron ore tied to a stick = best". It was fairly straightforward about things, and had some level of internal logic. Similarly, there was a fig leaf offered for explaining why the Lost don't getting jacked up by iron as bad as True Fae: when the fey busted a deal with Iron way back when, a changeling was semi-involved in helping expose the treachery, so they got a small degree of clemency.

And, really, Iron hurts fey because it is a symbolic representation of man's domination over nature. And faeries are, at their core, a type of nature spirit. Hypothetically, they should also be burned by aluminum and plastic, too, these days. But back when the folklore was written, iron was the big, new mass produced metal that was in everything high-tech.

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Wrong setting there, m'boy. C:tL True Fae are basically raksha lords - they don't give a single fuck about nature beyond how they can use it for their own self-glorification, same as literally anything else in our universe.

 

[king208]

So quick question about the Exarchs, why do the they care about the fallen world at all? Like why are they even involved enough to send the Seers visions?

I'm looking to run my first M:Aw game and want to use a Seer pylon as a long term antagonist. But don't have the money to buy the Reign of the Exarchs book yet.

 

[shenron]

Sure there might be some older, more ostensibly dignified types who are like you said. But at their core they're basically sadists who do it 'cause it's fun and they have enough money that they've already done everything else.

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IIRC, those types actually make up a third of the Compact, people with long complicated names and know their family trees back the last few generations and family estates out in the country with drawing rooms filled with taxidermied animals and antiques slung on the walls.

If me memory serves correctly they normally don't take part in the rapey stuff that the younger members of the compact take part in, generally more interested in arranging "fox-hunts" of the supernatural.

The Ashwood Abbey is basically just a Hellfire Club. So one way to do it is to treat them like Marvel's Hellfire club. You've got an outer circle of rich muggles who think they rule the world, and are in it just for the kinky sex and drugs, and these people provide funds for the Inner Circle, who know that they don't rule the world, but want to, and have substantial supernatural power.

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That would actually make a lot of sense, like, it's pointed out that since every Ashwood Lodge pays some money to it's parent lodge, and those lodges also pay to their own parent lodges. The original lodge is making ludicrous amounts of munies. Have that be the inner circle and populate it with mages/vampires/satanists/the flat earth society etc.

 

[Chehrazad]

I, on the other hand, hate them with a fiery passion.

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A challenge? Very well!

Meet me on the field of battle!

The impression I got from them was that they aren't actually scientists, they're clueless dipshits who harm everything they touch

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The fuck did I just read.


The entire fucking point of their backstory is that their founder wanted to apply science - actual science to the supernatural, and founded the group to do so. Their central conflict is all about the fact that their leader right now is a staunch rationalist who is trying to suppress the "cranks" from taking over the Compact. Sure they use a lot of weird things, like Kirlian Photography and the like, but here is the thing: He's against that. That's the entire central conflict in the Compact.

And I am willing to bring Weapons of Mass Citation with me to this field of battle:

"The compact comprises a large bulk of rational, science-minded or academic folk: biologists, chemists, physicists, and the like. In recent years, however, the compact has seen a growth of pseudoscientifc efforts amongst its hunters. We'll talk more about that shortly, but for the moment it bears examining how hunters get from science to pseudoscience (and beyond).
Scientists seek rational explanations that are proven through rigorous testing. The scientifc method is everything. Success is inevitable, even in small ways: vampire blood looks a certain way under a microscope, or electricity has reproducible effects on reanimated human tissue.
Problem is, the World of Darkness is home to all manner of unexplainable horrors, and these horrors consistently evade rational explanation. The truly diligent don't take that as a failure, and continue to pursue explanations.
Some, though, aren't truly diligent. It doesn't help that studying the horrors of the World of Darkness means a life besieged by… well, horror. That damages the mind. It winnows one's devotion to reason. Answers are a lot easier if you soften the rigors of one's standards, yes?
And that's what happens. Eventually, science gives way to pseudoscience—proof obtained through less meticulous testing and with reason that crosses over into unreasonable territory."

So it is in fact a Compact made of entirely reasonable scientists, who are attempting not to become what you just described.

- if they aren't slicing open innocent Prometheans to try and find proof that they totally run on Luminiferous Ether, they're attempting genocide on Mages because their powers can't be slotted into their moronic personal Theory of Everything, and thus are a cosmic mistake that must be removed from the evidence pool.

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I won't adress this before you produce some actual quotes.

Basically, they're Lemurians from Genius: the Transgression, but without the semi-interesting idea of them being localized maelstroms of reality-warping solipsism. They're just assholes.

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1): Genius is a joke with no punchline, your sense of humor is impeccable good sir.
2): As my quote has just proved, no they are not.

 

[Generalissimo]

I am exceptionally unsympathetic to Hunting Code abuse. Like, massively so.

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My use of smiley indicated humor.
Abusing the Hunter Code is darn serious business.
Hunter has a Vigil and ought be holding their candle.

The Ashwood Abbey is pretty awful, though, because I can't imagine wanting to play a game with a willing Abbey member in the game. The only sympathetic member of the Abbey is someone who's basically like "Shit, I joined my Dad's secret society because it's just a thing you do, right, and now I found he was a serial-killing rapist hedonist and so are all his friends and they're going to kill me if I leave or tell anyone, but I also like having a Morality greater than 2, what do I do?".

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Ashwood Abby is worst of compacts because you can't run with Ashwood Abby without everything rapidly getting awkward fast.
Also completely unplayable in a mixed gender session.

Tbh I'm not sure why they aren't Slashers.

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Slashers will be playable in 2nd edition Hunter: the Vigil.
Soon the problem will solve itself

 

[hyzmarca]

I am exceptionally unsympathetic to Hunting Code abuse. Like, massively so.

It is meant for hard-bitten lone vampire hunters who have decided that vampires aren't people, so all their alterations are along the veins of adding "unless they're a vampire" to sins. Use of those rules for "tee hee, I'm an Ashford Abbey serial killing rapist but my Morality is two or higher because I decided such things aren't sins" is stupid. No, you're just a Morality 0-1 monster and you don't get to escape rolling for derangements that way.

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I thought that "unless they're a vampire" was pretty much automatically included in sins, otherwise a game in which you're expected to fight vampires at all is a rapid descent to morality 1-0.

Being a serial killer of serial killers does not make you any less of a serial killer.

 

[Omicron]

I thought that "unless they're a vampire" was pretty much automatically included in sins, otherwise a game in which you're expected to fight vampires at all is a rapid descent to morality 1-0.

Being a serial killer of serial killers does not make you any less of a serial killer.

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It's not. Vampires are terrible people, but they're still people. When you kill them, it hurts your Humanity. If you lock them up in a cellar, starve them for blood and torture them with fire for information, it hurts your Humanity even more. The Code protects you from that to an extent, if it is your personal crusade - but only an extent.