Lancea Sanctum once again shows White Wolf cannot do Catholicism without being incredibly offensive.

Well... (speaking as a non Catholic) I rather like Lancea. They have a lot of the old Sabbat ideas (you are a vampire now, therefore you are Not Human) but they go off in a very different (and IMO more sympathetic) direction than my experiences with the Sabbat ("You are Not Human, therefore you must become a deranged torture-murder hobo.")

I mean, Lance Henrikson in Near Dark and Kiefer Sutherland in Lost Boys were certainly interesting characters, but a whole Faction of nothing but those two...
 
Well... (speaking as a non Catholic) I rather like Lancea. They have a lot of the old Sabbat ideas (you are a vampire now, therefore you are Not Human) but they go off in a very different (and IMO more sympathetic) direction than my experiences with the Sabbat ("You are Not Human, therefore you must become a deranged torture-murder hobo.")
Just reinforces White Wolf's consistent mishandling of Catholicism.
I am delighted Hunter's Hunted 2 has courtesy to extend write ups to Anglican, Orthodox, and even Jewish inquisitions.
 
Is the current drive towards VR the Technocracy's attempt to bring the Virtual Adepts back into the fold and/or an attempt to break/lock down their paradigm?

Honestly, if we look at IRL, the Virtual Adepts have basically hopelessly split.

Half of them have basically gone corporate and mainstream, and that's where your Googles and your Facebooks come from - the Virtual Adepts were won over by the Syndicate. Hell, the Virtual Adepts might even have reformed as a Convention, so many of them have gone corporate. The Syndicate bought them with public buyouts and "you'll get to work within the system to get space flight commercially available" and "seriously, so much money here, do you want to be a billionaire?". And then other Virtual Adepts got snapped up by the New World Order and joined the NSA as cover placements by the Watchers.

And then of the remaining Traditions half, they're also fractured between the left-wing anti-corporate anti-authoritarian pro-cryptography anti-NSA lot (who might be considered to be the "classic" VAs), and the new wave of the new-right populist trolls (who are the direction action Virtual Adepts who are very, very bitter and angry).

Ironically, in their success it doomed the Virtual Adepts of the 90s. They won to a massive degree unlike any other Tradition, getting their ideas incredibly mainstream - but the cost of winning is that the tensions within the Adepts proved unmanageable. The faction of the Adepts who were like "We've won... shit, we don't want anyone ruining us, not when we know we're so close to getting mind-state uploads" became the Man, who dresses in business casual and wears wacky shirts on Fridays and reads all your emails so they can sell the information. And the anti-authoritarian Adepts who didn't sell out realised that they were hopelessly split between left and right - and neither side liked each other enough to actually fight for them, even if they both hated the Google sell-out corporate VAs.
 
Honestly, if we look at IRL, the Virtual Adepts have basically hopelessly split.

Half of them have basically gone corporate and mainstream, and that's where your Googles and your Facebooks come from - the Virtual Adepts were won over by the Syndicate. Hell, the Virtual Adepts might even have reformed as a Convention, so many of them have gone corporate. The Syndicate bought them with public buyouts and "you'll get to work within the system to get space flight commercially available" and "seriously, so much money here, do you want to be a billionaire?". And then other Virtual Adepts got snapped up by the New World Order and joined the NSA as cover placements by the Watchers.

And then of the remaining Traditions half, they're also fractured between the left-wing anti-corporate anti-authoritarian pro-cryptography anti-NSA lot (who might be considered to be the "classic" VAs), and the new wave of the new-right populist trolls (who are the direction action Virtual Adepts who are very, very bitter and angry).

Ironically, in their success it doomed the Virtual Adepts of the 90s. They won to a massive degree unlike any other Tradition, getting their ideas incredibly mainstream - but the cost of winning is that the tensions within the Adepts proved unmanageable. The faction of the Adepts who were like "We've won... shit, we don't want anyone ruining us, not when we know we're so close to getting mind-state uploads" became the Man, who dresses in business casual and wears wacky shirts on Fridays and reads all your emails so they can sell the information. And the anti-authoritarian Adepts who didn't sell out realised that they were hopelessly split between left and right - and neither side liked each other enough to actually fight for them, even if they both hated the Google sell-out corporate VAs.
I am putting forward alternative view of Virtual Adepts based on IRL events.
They've gone all in corporate mainstream without rejoining Technocracy.
More success promoting their paradigm compared to all other traditions combined.
We're all currently living in that interconnected age of Internet now.
Technocrats actually failing in preventing somebody else shaping mainstream for once.
 
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I am putting forward alternative view of Virtual Adepts based on IRL events.
They've gone all in corporate mainstream without rejoining Technocracy.
More success promoting their paradigm compared to all other traditions combined.
We're all currently living in that interconnected age of Internet now.
Technocrats actually failing in preventing somebody else shaping mainstream for once.

No, you're not basing it on IRL events. The technology company megagiants are not opposed to the general corporate ecosystem, and neither do they truly oppose governments. We know Google cooperates with China and the US, and we all see how Apple sells people restricted, closed-ecosystem goods that it promotes as being "cool" (but are just overpriced). Hell, look at the way that Facebook uses its algorithms to only show you news you want to see. That is not an act of the anti-authoritarian, counter-mainstream group. That is the Man at work, within the reference frame of oMage.

Tech companies are just another kind of company - one that play nicely in the ballpit with other companies and which usually cooperate with state intelligence agencies. They're mainstream. They're working hand in hand with the Syndicate.
 
Why is Paganism so evil in your book? And how can the Circle in my games denigrate Humanity when I don't have a Humanity meter in my game? The Lancea Sanctum are pseudo-Christian fundamentalist maniacs, and they're supposed to be the "good guys"? Dude, the Lancea Sanctum are like a cross between the Westboro Baptist Church and Crusades-era Catholicism (and that is the canonical portrayal of the LS), and they're good while the Circle are evil?

Plus, in my Rule Zero games, the Circle of the Crone are strictly polytheists and not blood-soaked demon-worshipping witches. Belial's Brood already covers that niche of bloody infernalists.

As for the Ordo Dracul, in my games, they're searching for the cure for vampirism. They may be unethical at times, but for them, the end justifies the means.

1) Getting rid of humanity is a really good idea. Because humanity doesn't do what White Wolf wants it to do. The fact that they had to invent Paths of Enlightenment sort of shows that Humanity was a failed idea right off the bat.


2)That doesn't make the Circle of the Crone the good guys, because they still kill people. The fact that they don't worship demons doesn't change anything, because pretty much every major religion performed human sacrifices back in the day, and they'd be the direct inheritors of those traditions, not dime-store wiccans practicing a watered-down Disney-friendly reconstruction.

...what? Why.

Literally the only link I can see is, "Fighting evil by moonlight" but then vampires can't win love by daylight.

If you want to do Magical Girls or something and don't want to...urgh, I dunno, use the Magical-Girl-Homebrew-Thing...then why wouldn't Mages or Changelings or Prometheans (who save the day and then move on because if they stick around people will hate them) or...honestly literally every other splat be the go-to pick rather than vampires?

Are you saying that that huge Ogre Changeling doesn't look good in a frilly magical girl dress? Aww, now you've made her cry. You monster.

Werewolf is Sailor Moon. oVampire is Neon Genesis Evangellion.
 
1) Getting rid of humanity is a really good idea. Because humanity doesn't do what White Wolf wants it to do. The fact that they had to invent Paths of Enlightenment sort of shows that Humanity was a failed idea right off the bat.

No, Paths of Enlightenment were the failed idea, as shown by how nWoD (rightfully) burned them with fire. Because they were used, for the most part, for the Path of What I Was Going To Do Anyway.
 
No, Paths of Enlightenment were the failed idea, as shown by how nWoD (rightfully) burned them with fire. Because they were used, for the most part, for the Path of What I Was Going To Do Anyway.

Except for the fact that Humanity is such a high and unyielding standard that it doesn't let the game have actual villains, at all. You've either got pacifist monk vampires, or insane wights, with little space in between, if you follow the rules as written.

Paths were created because without them the Sabbat is literally impossible according to the rules. While they were supposed to be insane alien moralities, the fact remains that Humanity does not and cannot work for the vast majority of villain and anti-hero vampires.

Just putting everyone on the Path of Whatever I Wanted to do Anyway is the superior choice for a variety of reasons, the most obvious being that Lestat is actually much more popular than Louis, and got more novels.


Humanity as it is works because pretty much no one actually uses it as written, if they use it at all. Even the most stodgy and hidebound Storytellers will fudge things by outright ignoring acts that should produce degeneration rolls by RAW.
 
Except for the fact that Humanity is such a high and unyielding standard that it doesn't let the game have actual villains, at all. You've either got pacifist monk vampires, or insane wights, with little space in between, if you follow the rules as written.

Paths were created because without them the Sabbat is literally impossible according to the rules. While they were supposed to be insane alien moralities, the fact remains that Humanity does not and cannot work for the vast majority of villain and anti-hero vampires.

Just putting everyone on the Path of Whatever I Wanted to do Anyway is the superior choice for a variety of reasons, the most obvious being that Lestat is actually much more popular than Louis, and got more novels.


Humanity as it is works because pretty much no one actually uses it as written, if they use it at all. Even the most stodgy and hidebound Storytellers will fudge things by outright ignoring acts that should produce degeneration rolls by RAW.

Factually incorrect. Actually, what happens is:

a) Most players drop to a relatively stable Morality of 3-5.
b) It's actually really hard to get down into the low levels. A vampire who periodically accidentally kills people when feeding because they don't take enough care will stabilise around 3-4 or so, because that's the level at which you don't have a problem with manslaughter. To become a draugr, you need to be a thoroughly unpleasant person - doing more than just killing people frequently.
c) Man, fuck the Sabbat. I don't care about enabling their thoroughly juvenile "Tee hee hee, look at me fleshcrafting this person" play. If you cite them as justification for Paths of Enlightenment, that's just further reason that Paths of Enlightenment were terrible.
d) Turns out that, no, if you don't run sessions as dungeon-crawlers, it takes people a while to even drop that low. Turns out murder is a significant step and if you're casually inured to it, that's a sign that you're not exactly mentally healthy. Most vampires do not kill people frequently, because White Wolf vampires are organised crime rather than Alucard and there's a lot more threats and low level violence than out-and-out killing.
e) I have both run and played in Requiem games with RAW Humanity, and my Nosferatu Invictus legbreaker stabilised at Humanity 4 despite being someone who goes out on his boss' orders and hits people's legs with a cricket bat and then hits them with Nightmare as a way to 'warn' them away from messing with the Invictus. He wasn't a very nice person - but he wasn't a draugr.
 
Well, yes, we're assuming we're in an oWoD reference frame and can't just sensibly blame everything on the Pantechnicon Ministry.
...well, actually, I guess it's also sealing off outside intrusion that would pierce a consensus? Avoiding engagement with the greater world, in which contradictory information would be steamrollered by the greater resources and consensus control of the Technocracy?

Experiments in taking an internet-based Local Consensus mainstream, after early successes in tiny subforum communities?

Little pockets of personalized reality, used as batteries to fuel a ritual that could... why, it could even swing an election. :V
 
...well, actually, I guess it's also sealing off outside intrusion that would pierce a consensus? Avoiding engagement with the greater world, in which contradictory information would be steamrollered by the greater resources and consensus control of the Technocracy?

Experiments in taking an internet-based Local Consensus mainstream, after early successes in tiny subforum communities?

Little pockets of personalized reality, used as batteries to fuel a ritual that could... why, it could even swing an election. :V

Or accidentally summon an egyptian god
 
Quick, someone start a Technocracy debate! It's the fastest way to get us away from this stupidity!

The problem is that even my straight up Technocracy-as-protagonists games tend to be about the dark side of western society, the sacrifices made by once-good people who might no longer count as good (or people), and the need for people to both be bound by rules-and to rebel against them.

Well, yes, we're assuming we're in an oWoD reference frame and can't just sensibly blame everything on the Pantechnicon Ministry.

The first oWoD joke I made on November 9th was "how are you guys liking the Traditions victory now" :V
 
Huh. I didn't know that was still a thing. Thought that was wiped out like a thousand years ago. I guess I shouldn't be surprised. Gnosticism is a pretty tempting ideology.

Not quite.

You'd be thinking of the Cathars, which were wiped out in the Albigensian Crusade, whereas what I am describing is a really vague way to say "kind of Christian, who believes that Jesus was simply a wise tutor who tried to show us how to transcend our mortal limitations."

Of course, there are other things, but my religion is kind of a private thing, so I'd prefer to talk about something else.
 
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