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White Wolf's World of Darkness

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Speaking of, does anyone have any guesses as far as what 2E is going to do with Changelings?*

*My favorite nWoD splat, though to be fair I've never played nWoD, so I can't judge in that area, rather mostly in terms of how it seems to fit together mechanically in theory and my opinions of the fluff and potential.
 
Mummy: the Curse I believe.

You play as an immortal who is stuck in a perpetual cycle of reanimation and death.

It's apparently backwards in the power progression scheme with the mummies awakening at a high level of power and gradually losing that power until they have to sleep once more.
 
query said:
Mummy: the Curse I believe.

You play as an immortal who is stuck in a perpetual cycle of reanimation and death.

It's apparently backwards in the power progression scheme with the mummies awakening at a high level of power and gradually losing that power until they have to sleep once more.
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Huh, that's interesting, and maybe it's a hidden gem. I might have to check it out. After all, if you read the last three pages of this thread you'd get the impression that the only bit of nWoD that matters is Mages :p, so I shouldn't let lack of commentary stop me from checking it out.
 
Yeah, it's an interesting line and well worth checking out. It and CtL are the only two NWoD games I prefer over their OWoD counterparts.
 
query said:
Is this in a supplement?
I mean the Mysterium has a rote dedicated to extending one's life and Archmages get immortality with their Ascension.

Why would immortality be taboo? The whole point of their organizations is to have the Awakened culture grow and eventually fix the world.
Seems like that would be easier with your group having more four-hundred year old Master's on your side.

Never!
True Humanity Ascend!
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This was something that Dave Brookshaw, the lead dev for M:tA, said on the onyx path forums. I can't get the quote right now as their site seems to be down for maintenance. Essentially, most of the means of arcana based life extension require you to do some horrendous things to people so if you're strongly suspected of having extended your lifespan they'll generally shoot first and ask questions after you're a corpse. Keep in mind that without archmastery it's usually not possible to extend your lifespan indefinitely without somehow taking it from someone or something else. You know, the whole "no indefinite spells on living patterns" thing.
 
cmwatford said:
You know, the whole "no indefinite spells on living patterns" thing.
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Huh didn't know there was a rule for that.
I mean the core book I'm reading right now mentions about how life spells will fade and are not indefinite but it also mentions how it only reverts unnatural changes more normal changes can be permanent.

I don't see why a mage can't use the Life arcana to heal all the natural genetic damage that makes up aging much the same way they can permanent fix a bullet wound.

Seems silly that there is a shoot first policy on mages extending their life, hell there are artifacts that can do that!
Plus for a Death Arcana mage there is plenty of deserved targets that can have their lifeline's drained.

This policy for the Pentacle orders to restrict their oldest members to merely a long lifespan is foolish.

Do the Seers follow this ideal?
Do Banishers?
From a bit of research apparently the Free Council is lax on the subject.

---
"Master Dublin we uh, we need to talk."

"Oh? Well don't just stand in the doorway Michele. Sit, tell me your concerns."
Michele awkwardly sits in the flimsy beany-bag chair.

"Some of the other cabals in the city have been getting restless lately."
"Well that's hardly news at all, when are our associates not restless?"
"Well Master it uh, seems they are talking -gossiping really, about... you."
"Talking about me? Huh, it's been a while since I've done anything worth talking abou- Wait! Have I been sleep casting again?

Michele fidgets uncomfortably.
"No Master its a little more complicated then that."
"Well? Spit it out girl I'm old enough as it is!"
"T-they are beginning to think -it's total nonsense but they are beginning to believe that you are extending your uh, life."

Master Dublin blinks putting on the appearance of confusion.
"Extending my life? I'm 260 years old, of course I'm extending my life!"
Michele reels back shocked.
"You admit it!"

"Of course. I'm no woman, I gain no pleasure from making you younglings guess."
"Sexist Master and they- Master they speak of you extending your life through... illicit means."

Master Dublin frowns and begins stroking his beard in thought.
"Illicit means? Could you be more specific Michele?"
Michele looks down from her mentors piercing gaze.
"Soul Thievery, Bloodbathing, Forbidden Self-Pattern Modification, Pacts with the Abyss. Those sorta things Master."

Master Dublin sighs causing Michele to jump as the aged mage is no longer at his desk but behind her; retrieving his coat.
"I suppose this is what I get for not attending meetings in a couple decades. Life extension illegal hmph! And they wonder why the Seers have so much ground."
"Master?"
"Man the er- I mean Woman the fort Michele, I'm fairly sure we're long overdue for our annual Banisher Cook Off."
"Master Dublin where are you going?!"

The Master mage leans backwards, groaning in relief at the multitude of pops his vertebrae makes before straightening and facing his student with a grin.
"I'm going to remind our friendly neighborhood Order the merits of keeping me around."
 
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query said:
Huh didn't know there was a rule for that.
I mean the core book I'm reading right now mentions about how life spells will fade and are not indefinite but it also mentions how it only reverts unnatural changes more normal changes can be permanent.

I don't see why a mage can't use the Life arcana to heal all the natural genetic damage that makes up aging much the same way they can permanent fix a bullet wound.

Seems silly that there is a shoot first policy on mages extending their life, hell there are artifacts that can do that!
Plus for a Death Arcana mage there is plenty of deserved targets that can have their lifeline's drained.

This policy for the Pentacle orders to restrict their oldest members to merely a long lifespan is foolish.

Do the Seers follow this ideal?
Do Banishers?
From a bit of research apparently the Free Council is lax on the subject.

---
"Master Dublin we uh, we need to talk."

"Oh? Well don't just stand in the doorway Michele. Sit, tell me your concerns."
Michele awkwardly sits in the flimsy beany-bag chair.

"Some of the other cabals in the city have been getting restless lately."
"Well that's hardly news at all, when are our associates not restless?"
"Well Master it uh, seems they are talking -gossiping really, about... you."
"Talking about me? Huh, it's been a while since I've done anything worth talking abou- Wait! Have I been sleep casting again?

Michele fidgets uncomfortably.
"No Master its a little more complicated then that."
"Well? Spit it out girl I'm old enough as it is!"
"T-they are beginning to think -it's total nonsense but they are beginning to believe that you are extending your uh, life."

Master Dublin blinks putting on the appearance of confusion.
"Extending my life? I'm 260 years old, of course I'm extending my life!"
Michele reels back shocked.
"You admit it!"

"Of course. I'm no woman, I gain no pleasure from making you younglings guess."
"Sexist Master and they- Master they speak of you extending your life through... illicit means."

Master Dublin frowns and begins stroking his beard in thought.
"Illicit means? Could you be more specific Michele?"
Michele looks down from her mentors piercing gaze.
"Soul Thievery, Bloodbathing, Forbidden Self-Pattern Modification, Pacts with the Abyss. Those sorta things Master."

Master Dublin sighs causing Michele to jump as the aged mage is no longer at his desk but behind her; retrieving his coat.
"I suppose this is what I get for not attending meetings in a couple decades. Life extension illegal hmph! And they wonder why the Seers have so much ground."
"Master?"
"Man the fort Michele, I'm fairly sure we're long overdue for our annual Banisher Cook Off."
"Master Dublin where are you going?!"

The Master mage leans backwards, groaning in relief at the multitude of pops his vertebrae makes before straightening and facing his student with a grin.
"I'm going to remind our friendly neighborhood Order the merits of keeping me around."
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Death is one of the arcana, the concept that all things must eventually fade is part of the foundation of reality.

Hell, one of the Moros writeups mentions that most of them walk away from their awakenings convinced that death should be embraced instead of feared and according to Dave this is one of the main reasons for the taboo. When the majority of those mages who are closest to the concept of death tell you immortality is bad you tend to belive them.
 
cmwatford said:
Death is one of the arcana, the concept that all things must eventually fade is part of the foundation of reality.

Hell, one of the Moros writeups mentions that most of them walk away from their awakenings convinced that death should be embraced instead of feared and according to Dave this is one of the main reasons for the taboo. When the majority of those mages who are closest to the concept of death tell you immortality is bad you tend to belive them.
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Isn't death in the NWoD cessation of existance (barring certain extraneous circumstances?)
It's not like the OWoD where a mage can remember and recall their past life leaving a form of continuation.

All mages have a profound experience when they meet their Watchtower that has the potential to change their mindset.
Those that walk the realm of the Stygia are no different and I would take their beliefs with the same concern and regard as I would the others.

Biased.

I know that there are horrific ways of extending a mages life but I also know there are non-baby-eating ways to do it.

I can't really see how ethically rendering oneself immortal is a bad thing.
It gives you plenty of time to study the arcana, teach others and ultimately bolsters your groups numbers in the long run.

Plus it's just longevity. There is still plenty of stuff out there that can kill said immortal mage just not disease and age.
(How many mages die to old age anyway?)

This seems like a self imposed handicap for that order that they uphold because the Atlantean mages did the same.
I mean I get it they don't want any soul eaters or blood bathers wandering around. (Because any individual who's that morally bankrupt is bad news.)
So hunt down the Lich's and ban that specific legacy don't just ban/taboo the entire objective of attaining immortality.

Is it just the Adamant Arrow that holds this policy and enforces it?
 
query said:
Isn't death in the NWoD cessation of existance (barring certain extraneous circumstances?)
It's not like the OWoD where a mage can remember and recall their past life leaving a form of continuation.

All mages have a profound experience when they meet their Watchtower that has the potential to change their mindset.
Those that walk the realm of the Stygia are no different and I would take their beliefs with the same concern and regard as I would the others.

Biased.

I know that there are horrific ways of extending a mages life but I also know there are non-baby-eating ways to do it.

I can't really see how ethically rendering oneself immortal is a bad thing.
It gives you plenty of time to study the arcana, teach others and ultimately bolsters your groups numbers in the long run.

Plus it's just longevity. There is still plenty of stuff out there that can kill said immortal mage just not disease and age.
(How many mages die to old age anyway?)

This seems like a self imposed handicap for that order that they uphold because the Atlantean mages did the same.
I mean I get it they don't want any soul eaters or blood bathers wandering around. (Because any individual who's that morally bankrupt is bad news.)
So hunt down the Lich's and ban that specific legacy don't just ban/taboo the entire objective of attaining immortality.

Is it just the Adamant Arrow that holds this policy and enforces it?
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Found that quote
Dave Brookshaw said:
The issue isn't some Catholic analogy. The issue is that the Path of Death is actually the Path of Transformation - Moros specialise in the Supernal resonance of transition between fixed states. The Path has always been portrayed as being curiously not-at-all morbid. Death, to the main researchers into it in Mage's universe, is a spiritual transition which isn't something to fear or put off forever. Delay, sure, but everything dies eventually. In-setting, the fear of death, and the related fear that only an elect few get to the afterlife is one of the Exarchs.

Tremere believe differently, but they've had their spiritual nature dipped into the Abyss as part of their recruitment - they're a corrupted form of the Moros.

Do other mages fear death and seek immortality? A few, but predominantly members of other Paths. The Pentacle takes the majority Moros lead because that's how Pentacle society works. The Silver Ladder know that morbid fear is one of the Enemy, and think that Ascension is preferable to lichdom (and that most lichdom methods corrupt the soul, so preclude Ascension). The further a group gets from the meritocratic "listen to the experts" core of mage society, the more accepting it is of fringe ideas like making your stay in the Fallen World permanent.

Death Archmasters are, thanks to the way Archmastery works, mostly either ex-Moros or mages who had Death as a third Ruling Arcanum through their Legacy. The characters with the greatest ability to seek immortality methods are the ones with the least inclination to do it.

Exceptions exist, and when we're talking about Masters and archmasters everyone's an exceptional individual, but they're on the fringes because a fifth of the Awakened - the important fifth to the subject - mostly reject immortality as a philosophy and decry it as a spiritually poisionous dead-end. That most liches areMad, bad, or dangerous to know just reinforces that societal stereotype.
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Here's the link to the thread. http://forum.theonyxpath.com/forum/...e-the-options-for-mages-not-dying-of-old-age/
Lots of good stuff here on the subject.

Now to answer your questions.

Death is not the end. Your soul goes 'somewhere' when you die and eventually ends up in stygia. Where it goes after that is anyones guess. Also, as long as someone can get ahold of your ghost, which is not your soul by the way, they can ask you all the questions they want.

This taboo is enforced by the four diamond orders. The free council is likely to look the other way if not pressed on it. The seers are the seers.
 
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I feel like I should point out that you can actually become biologically immortal at chargen. Transform Self, Life 3, allows you to "give yourself the features of a base or median life form". We know that while magical buffs don't last forever, non-magical changes they enact do - you can't enchant iron permanently, but you can turn it into a carbon-fibre-diamonoid lattice that's impossible to make with modern manufacturing methods but is still perfectly mundane, and that'll last as long as you like because there's no spell involved in it existing, just in producing it.

With that said, turritopsis nutricula is a small species of jellyfish - a base lifeform - which possesses the curious property of being able to age in reverse; reverting to its polyp stage when exposed to environmental stress or physical assault, or when it simply becomes too sick or too old. As it is a form of base life, you can lift this reverse-aging property from it and age backwards - using a couple of dots of Time to fast-forward the effect - and go from a decrepit nonogenarian to a fresh-faced twenty-something, then drop the Transform Self and be perfectly fine.

Life, Matter, Forces. The Wikipedia Arcanae, which become exponentially more powerful in the hands of anyone with imagination and either a basic understanding of biology/chemistry/physics or an internet connection and some time to spare.

(Presumably Mages get very upset when someone points this out and argue that this is cheating and that it's bad form to go around getting axp and doing things that are impossible with Life 5 as a chargen mage by doing some basic reading on an internet encyclopedia and then taking a fishing trip.)
 
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...and this is why I'm going to try to never have Roza (or Prudence if there's a shift in the votes) meet a Mage if they can at all help it.

/ Knowing that voters are voters, so who knows what they'll decide.
 
Aleph said:
Life, Matter, Forces. The Wikipedia Arcanae, which become exponentially more powerful in the hands of anyone with imagination and either a basic understanding of biology/chemistry/physics or an internet connection and some time to spare.
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You know the old saying "Knowledge is power."

This is a very literal statement for Mages, even without involving mystical lore.
 
Another fun fact for the Wikipedia Arcanae; botulinum toxin is a horrifyingly deadly substance produced by the bacterium clostridium botulinum. It's used in a heavily diluted form in botox, which is fairly common, but the pure toxin has a lethal intravenous dose of about 1 ng/kg. For a 70kg person, 70 ingested micrograms is fatal. If they inhale it, that goes down to less than 1 microgram.

Clostridium botulinum is a form of base life, so you can give yourself the ability to make this stuff at Life 3, or if that seems too limited then with Life 2 you can use Transfer Base Features and Control Base Life to give a mosquito or bee the ability to produce it and then tell them to go sting your target. You can also arguably make at Matter 2 with Transmute Water if it counts as a "common" liquid substance - though the Matter arcana never really says where you can transmute stuff into rare substances, at least in the Awakening corebook. Assuming you can, however, then at Matter 2 you can transmute a bit of your target's drink into the stuff, which will kill them just as easily and again with very little trace.
 
Honestly, now that I think about it...why do Mages get expanded lifespan? I mean, I know there's probably some flavor justification to it, but honestly the 'balance' between the splats would be a lot better if it went like this:

Mage: I'm more powerful than you.
Vampire: It seems so. *flees*
*Spits on the Mage's grave 40 years later when they die of old age, Vampire is still alive and kicking*
 
The Laurent said:
Honestly, now that I think about it...why do Mages get expanded lifespan? I mean, I know there's probably some flavor justification to it, but honestly the 'balance' between the splats would be a lot better if it went like this:

Mage: I'm more powerful than you.
Vampire: It seems so. *flees*
*Spits on the Mage's grave 40 years later when they die of old age, Vampire is still alive and kicking*
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Average vampire lifespan is almost certainly lower than average human. Even if you discount the "suicide in the first year" contributing factor, you will live longer if you don't become an immortal bloodsucking monster, and more happily too. Vampire society is violent, dangerous, and set up for the advantage of the elders. It's a pyramid. Most vampires don't even reach ancilla age, and that's 50-100.

This perfectly supports Vampire's themes and feel and thus shouldn't be changed. Vampires are drug gangs and they're sex offenders, dressed up in metaphor.
 
The Laurent said:
*Stares at the multiple ways for Mages to get immortality for cheap and easy when Vampires and every other splat have to work at it or have horrendous trade offs or literally drink blood not to die*

Mage OP, PLZ NERF.
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cheap and easy implies that people choose to become vampires in order to get immortality. Which I don't think is actually a thing. You become a vampire when some horrible sociopath murders you and makes you a wretched thing of undeath, and calls you childe and orders you around and you can't resist him because he's much more powerful than you, and oh, mod, vampire really just is this terrible extended rape metaphor, isn't it?
 
Chloe Sullivan said:
cheap and easy implies that people choose to become vampires in order to get immortality. Which I don't think is actually a thing. You become a vampire when some horrible sociopath murders you and makes you a wretched thing of undeath, and calls you childe and orders you around and you can't resist him because he's much more powerful than you, and oh, mod, vampire really just is this terrible extended rape metaphor, isn't it?
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And people ask why I don't like Vampire. Well, that and the nihilism.
 
Chloe Sullivan said:
cheap and easy implies that people choose to become vampires in order to get immortality. Which I don't think is actually a thing. You become a vampire when some horrible sociopath murders you and makes you a wretched thing of undeath, and calls you childe and orders you around and you can't resist him because he's much more powerful than you, and oh, mod, vampire really just is this terrible extended rape metaphor, isn't it?
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There's a reason V:tR2e was called Sexmurder during testing.

There's a little less reason Werewolf and Mage were called Sexmauling and Sexmagic.
 
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Eh, fair enough. Makes sense. I assume there's something similar set up with the Mages and their weird I-don't-even longer lifespan, where most Mages get dead before they'd even die of old age?
 
The Laurent said:
Eh, fair enough. Makes sense. I assume there's something similar set up with the Mages and their weird I-don't-even longer lifespan, where most Mages get dead before they'd even die of old age?
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Well, being a Mage is being the kid who sticks a fork in the wall socket, just to see what happens. In the World of Darkness. Also, again, from an in-universe perspective, long lifespan is either the result of a sustained Life spell (thus leaving you one dispel from death), or some seriously unWise juju.
 
The Laurent said:
Eh, fair enough. Makes sense. I assume there's something similar set up with the Mages and their weird I-don't-even longer lifespan, where most Mages get dead before they'd even die of old age?
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The mage dev has stated that most mages that make it to old age generally don't live much lomger than mortals even with life magic to ease the aging process.

Those mages that manage to live much lomger than that are either really lucky or doing some pretty questionable things.
 
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