You just completely ignored everything I said in the last post. Please don't do that. The Hermetic system was a well defined path, but that path lead to the divine, the spiritual, and the mysterious. It left a place for Dynamism. Zeroing in on one part of what I said out of context make your argument weaker, not stronger.

The Technocratic Paradigm denies the spiritual and the divine - and both of them are real distinct things. It focuses on the material denying the mystical. The Hermetic paradigm doesn't do any of those things. It's weakness is elitism to an extent that the Technocracy has only recently managed to close in on, but simply having a system that they work within doesn't make them all the same. You can have a path to the mystical and still have it be a mystical revelation at the end.

Except this doesn't work. At all. The spiritual and the divine are arbitrary terms that mean nothing in Mage because everything is consensus. The Technocracy paradigm has plenty of space for the spiritual and the divine. They're called space aliens. Different window dressing same concept.

Your argument is literally that the Hermetics have different window dressing so their paradigm isn't static. The Technocracy "denial" of the immaterial is because they define material as "everything that exists" rather than having the physical and metaphysical. It denies the mystical in the sense that nothing is mystical, it has clear and understandable causes. In this sense the Hermetics deny the mystical with their rather... similar view of the world. Your argument involves the irrelevant set dressing not the actual core of the statements the paradigms make, which are identical. I don't know what you think saying the Hermetic one allows for "self-discovery" changes things. Technocrats gain Enlightenment too, any paradigm that works requires an allowance for self-discovery otherwise you get stuck at Arete 1.

The lack of the immaterial is actually closer to the truth than the Traditions and their separation. Dragons were perfectly material until they got booted into the Umbra and while in the Umbra you can interact with their solid selves just fine, like almost any other spirit. The only reason the mystics have a claim to the truth is ironically because of the Technocracy strengthening the Gauntlet.
 
The last one: this is how the canon materials says it works. (Possibly mixing stuff from editions here)

MJ: if you apply logic and actual human behavioral sciences, no, it doesn't actually work that way.

they are not working of the same premises, and therefore, their arguments will not sway the other.
 
The last one: this is how the canon materials says it works. (Possibly mixing stuff from editions here)

MJ: if you apply logic and actual human behavioral sciences, no, it doesn't actually work that way.

they are not working of the same premises, and therefore, their arguments will not sway the other.

I've already said that my interpretation is contrarian and heavily based on Death of the Author. But giving authorial fiat no more deference than any other interpretation the Technocracy represents stasis thing looks very weak.

And honestly paternalism versus liberalosm is a more interesting fight.
 
Except this doesn't work. At all. The spiritual and the divine are arbitrary terms that mean nothing in Mage because everything is consensus. The Technocracy paradigm has plenty of space for the spiritual and the divine. They're called space aliens. Different window dressing same concept.

Your argument is literally that the Hermetics have different window dressing so their paradigm isn't static. The Technocracy "denial" of the immaterial is because they define material as "everything that exists" rather than having the physical and metaphysical. It denies the mystical in the sense that nothing is mystical, it has clear and understandable causes. In this sense the Hermetics deny the mystical with their rather... similar view of the world. Your argument involves the irrelevant set dressing not the actual core of the statements the paradigms make, which are identical. I don't know what you think saying the Hermetic one allows for "self-discovery" changes things. Technocrats gain Enlightenment too, any paradigm that works requires an allowance for self-discovery otherwise you get stuck at Arete 1.

The lack of the immaterial is actually closer to the truth than the Traditions and their separation. Dragons were perfectly material until they got booted into the Umbra and while in the Umbra you can interact with their solid selves just fine, like almost any other spirit. The only reason the mystics have a claim to the truth is ironically because of the Technocracy strengthening the Gauntlet.

That not actually true though; it's mentioned several times that the Technocracy higher-up have concluded that the transitions are fundamentally right in how the physical world and the spiritual world of the Umbra are twined, that the relationship is real, and that they're hiding this from their subordinates. The physical/spiritual divide in a nutshell, and at the higher levels the technocracy has infact admitted to themselves that they're wrong.

Likewise dealing with the spiritual is dealing with mystical forces; you can't reduce a forest spirit to a set of tree spirits without losing something fundamental to what a forest is. It deal with abstracts in a way that simple doesn't work with the Technocracies materialistic approach. What the early technocrats argued through their actions, successfully, was that the material approach is not inherently inferior to the spiritual. What they ignore now is that the inverse is also true, and that ignoring one in favor of the other is ultimately an inferior approach. They follow an extreme rather then take a holistic approach.

Not dealing with the spiritual doesn't make it go away. The Technocracy has worked hard to divorce the physical world from the spiritual, and while they've occulted the relationship, they haven't actually weakened it. The 'two' 'worlds' remain just at tightly tied, and the 'distance' simply means both sicked in different ways. Way that leave room for corruption.

The traditions by contrasts are all over the place, but because they have to compromise with each other, they do take a collectively holistic approach... and that is inherently better. The Traditions are simply in the right here.

Likewise the Divine manifest in such things as recognizing Avatars, souls, the cosmic principles of the triad. It can be a submissive belief in the divine, a holistic tao, or a transcendent gnosis. Whatever form it takes, it give insight into principles of balance, acts as a literal ward agaisnt supernatural evil, and helps bring insight. Out of the Conventions, only the New World Order still recognizes that such principles exist, much less cultivate them.

So again the Traditions are simply better about this, are in the right.

The basis of the Conventions power was that the traditions ignored the material (weaver) in favor of the mystical (wyld) and divine (wyrm). Early on though, they didn't ignore the other two principles. Now they do, and that's why they can't do things like make people believe in the future, eliminate pollution, or self-reflect on where they're going. They're out of balance.

Clarity is the most subtle of the three mage insanities. Compared with the actively poisonous Jhor, or the unreal dreams of Quiet it's easy to miss. That doesn't make it less dangerous or destructive. In fact, in it's subtly, it's by far the scariest of the three.
 
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Are we going to start arguing HAP/HOP/HYP|RBD\PBD next, just to get all the Ascension wars out of the way? :tongue:

Anyway, there is a difference, I feel, between being associated with Stasis (as the Technocracy, given their paradigm's ascendance, is. They -are- the status quo in a lot of ways.) and embodying it, as the Nephandi do Primordialism. Every Nephandi has Primordial Resonance. Every Marauder has Dynamic. Not every Technocrat has a Static Resonance.
 
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Are we going to start arguing HAP/HOP/HYP|RBD\PBD next, just to get all the Ascension wars out of the way? :tongue:

Anyway, there is a difference, I feel, between being associated with Stasis (as the Technocracy, given their paradigm's ascendance, is. They -are- the status quo in a lot of ways.) and embodying it, as the Nephandi do Primordialism. Every Nephandi has Primordial Resonance. Every Marauder has Dynamic. Not every Technocrat has a Static Resonance.

That's true; the Technocracy is still a human organization. Mage naturally tend towards stasis according to the other splats, so it seems they can't jump off that ledge without some kind of extreme measure. Drones really aren't the same as Nephandi or Marauders; they're like Fomori or the Kami (the Gorgons are always non-human in source, which gives them a different flavor). They lack free will or the ability to grow on their own.
 
according to the other splats

I'm trying to think which of the other splats I'd even trust. Most of them are either clueless, Wyld-related and therefore biased to seeing Questing as Static or Entropic, or Wyrm-associated and untrustworthy by default as well as being perfectly willing to feed a line about how the Traditions/Technocracy haven't got and aren't going to get any answers so you should totally step into that Caul over there, c'mon the world's hopeless and you might as well accept it...
 
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New World Order - the conspiracy theory that "Godless communism", in the form of a state atheistic and bureaucratic collectivist world government, is trying to take over America - or is already running it behind the scenes! Often secretly run by the Jews/Illuminati/Freemasons.
Syndicate - global banking elite secretly controlling things behind the scenes. Also usually pretty anti-Semetic as an idea. Is there something you're not telling us, Traditions?
Progenitors - scary godless amoral scientists are playing God with life, showing no respect for nature. Also, they're forcing our children to learn about evolution and telling us that the world is really old. And they're giving your children autism with vaccines!
Iteration X - they're replacing us with machines - and treating people like they're meat components in a machine!
Void Engineers - I'm in spaaaaaaaaaaace (yeah, the Void Engineers are rather less well-rooted in conspiracy theories and fears)

They are, actually. They're rooted in how US aerospace projects are heavily tied to the US conspiracy mythos. They stand out somewhat thematically because they're a general take on a very specific and somewhat less known conspiracy theory, but in the context of 90's conspiracy theories, they're a natural inclusion alongside the secret shadow government, the Gnomes of Zurich, and the evil scientists. The Void Engineers are Majestic 12 conspiring with aliens in secret, the cover-up of the Roswell UFO crash, the NRO Delta wetworks team covering up UFO crashes, the sinister link between cattle mutilation and the US government, leaked alien autopsy videos, the writings of Milton Cooper, and strange lights in the sky.

That's what happens when you build the antagonist group to a large extent out of Right-wing conspiracy theories.

When you put it that way, there's an obviously missing Convention in the form of the Frankfurt school conspiracy theory, which uses language and thought itself to control minds.
 
When you put it that way, there's an obviously missing Convention in the form of the Frankfurt school conspiracy theory, which uses language and thought itself to control minds.

Ah, that's the Ivory Tower Methodology of the New World Order, which was one of the two Conventions which were fused to make the New World Order (the other was the Operatives). The Ivory Tower are - as given by the name - the ivory tower liberal academics who reinterpret history and spread political correctness and whitewash events and go and lure people off to the cities rather than staying back on the farm and turn other people's cultures into dry dissertations. And like all the NWO, they're really, really, really smug about it.

They're the Scary Liberal Humanities Professors to the Scary Godless Scientists of the Progenitors.

(also, the Ivory Tower traditionally was the dominant Methodology in the New World Order, which means that the liberals with their politically correct ways can in fact send the Men in Black to kick down your door and have you dragged off to be brainwashed)
 
Ah, that's the Ivory Tower Methodology of the New World Order, which was one of the two Conventions which were fused to make the New World Order (the other was the Operatives). The Ivory Tower are - as given by the name - the ivory tower liberal academics who reinterpret history and spread political correctness and whitewash events and go and lure people off to the cities rather than staying back on the farm and turn other people's cultures into dry dissertations. And like all the NWO, they're really, really, really smug about it.

They're the Scary Liberal Humanities Professors to the Scary Godless Scientists of the Progenitors.

(also, the Ivory Tower traditionally was the dominant Methodology in the New World Order, which means that the liberals with their politically correct ways can in fact send the Men in Black to kick down your door and have you dragged off to be brainwashed)
So can I join the Ivory Tower? They sound like a good deal to me! :p
 
So can I join the Ivory Tower? They sound like a good deal to me! :p
Well, most of the higher-ups were offworld when the Dimensional Anomaly hit, so Operatives run the NWO now, but I the Ivory Tower as part of the Order is still around, yeah.
 
I'm trying to think which of the other splats I'd even trust. Most of them are either clueless, Wyld-related and therefore biased to seeing Questing as Static or Entropic, or Wyrm-associated and untrustworthy by default as well as being perfectly willing to feed a line about how the Traditions/Technocracy haven't got and aren't going to get any answers so you should totally step into that Caul over there, c'mon the world's hopeless and you might as well accept it...

Hell, the werewolves are a pretty good example of how when you wipe the crossoveritis from your eyes, their belief in "the Wyld" and Dynamism are actually not really linked at all.

Remember, their most primitivist group which is the most Wyld tribe by general werewolf admission, the Red Talons, wants to return to an idealised past where human society was kept in enforced stasis through the power of genocide and strict population controls, and where things didn't ever change because they had a "perfect" way of running things. They're clearly a group which is a mix of Primordial and Static Resonance-wise. Likewise, the groups which break most from long-held traditions and adapt and change to a changing world, the Bone Gnawers and the Glass Walkers [1], are associated with the Weaver by werewolves, but are clearly more Dynamic than the rest of werewolf society.

Basically, data sources which rely on the opinion of groups which would claim that wanting to return to an unchanging population figure enforced by strict social controls is Dynamic and that adapting to a changing society and changing your culture is Static are... dubious. :V

[1] The Glass Walkers, much like the Technocracy, are also noted for having much more variable internal politics and change in relative importance of camps and fluid power structures than other Tribes/Traditions - a clear sign of Stasis, right?
 
As cool a hook as it is, and as much as I like it, it honestly feels like Mage: The Ascension would adhere more closely to what seems to be the creators' intent if the whole "consensus reality" angle was ditched.

If you ditch it, the squabbling between the Technocrats and Traditionalists becomes less about defining the practical circumstances of the human race and more about personal enlightenment. As a result, the Traditions become much more sympathetic - they're a group that sees the undefinable inner mysteries of the soul as a prism that can and should be viewed from many angles, and accepted in all its aspects.

Conversely, the role of the Technocracy in keeping human beings safe and empowered becomes much less relevant, because the scale of their struggle is narrowed to personal ideology rather than the actual state of reality itself - they're just douchebags who want to steamroll every potential view of the world into a single neat theory-prison, no matter how much of it they have to exterminate to do so.

That's what it currently isn't, because consensus reality raises the stakes to the point where readers are willing to side with the "certain but oppressive" group over the "liberal and accepting" group, because the latter is selfish and insane. It's fine to be a magic user who reached some kind of personal enlightenment through meditation on the nature of dragons, and thereby received dragon magic - but if that literally causes dragons to start living in the New York sewers, then fuck you and your magic powers.

(direct links to the other owod properties don't exactly help, really)
 
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Avatars remain real despite Sleepers not believing in them and a significant fraction of mages actively disbelieving in them

Do they? Technomagi say Avatars are not real, that it's simply human Genius. The fact that the Traditions continue to use such terminology is a sign of blind superstition.

Sleepers may not believe in Avatars, but the idea that there are hidden things, that change is possible and humans can have power is one that hasn't been stamped out. Not yet.

Remember, Sleeper apathy is supposed to be restricting magic. One of the endgame scenarios for a Technocratic 'victory' is magic stops working entirely. Reality calcifies. Do people awaken? Do Avatars exist? Maybe. But no one notices. They may as well have ceased to exist. The Consensus has effectively unmade them.

This seems to be a case of unreasonably preferring the Tradition's point of view. They are the people who say Avatars exist. Others disagree.
 
Do they? Technomagi say Avatars are not real, that it's simply human Genius. The fact that the Traditions continue to use such terminology is a sign of blind superstition.

Sleepers may not believe in Avatars, but the idea that there are hidden things, that change is possible and humans can have power is one that hasn't been stamped out. Not yet.

Remember, Sleeper apathy is supposed to be restricting magic. One of the endgame scenarios for a Technocratic 'victory' is magic stops working entirely. Reality calcifies. Do people awaken? Do Avatars exist? Maybe. But no one notices. They may as well have ceased to exist. The Consensus has effectively unmade them.

This seems to be a case of unreasonably preferring the Tradition's point of view. They are the people who say Avatars exist. Others disagree.

Making them not matter by calcifying the universe till no one can awaken doesn't mean they stop being real any more then saying then saying the earth is flat makes it real in our universe. We know that Avatars are Avatars because, among other things, technocrats have advantages like 'My Avatar comes from one of the original Craftmasons, so I maintain that fundamental belief in humanity that has died in the modern nights.'

It's like saying the Umbra doesn't matter and reflect reality. You can occult the relationship, but it remains real. The Technocracy is ideologically driven to deny the underpinning of reality, preferring the superficial aspects that bend to their design, and trying to hide the rest in a corner like a child that's broken it's toys and doesn't want it's parents to find out. Yes, you can raise the Gauntlet till blatant obvious animism disappears, but the Umbra shadow keeps acting as a more subtle voodoo doll to want it's connected to, and their is a host of bad side effect that are part of raising the Guantlet too high.

Lots of those things, in fact, actually ultimately make people more vulnerable to spiritual predators. Dragons are (by)gone, but Fomori have never been so common. A low gauntlet encourages spirit and matter to cross in dangerous ways that can threaten life, yes. But it's also associated with imagination, hope, empathy, and vibrant life. Lots of people living intensity, living full satisfying lives, lowers the gauntlet as a feedback cycle, where raising it causes the reverse. Mages are pretty resistant to that kind of effect, though not immune as that kind of enviroment encourages Clarity just like death encourages Jhor, but they're a minority of the population.

Raise the Gauntlet to high for to long, as the Umbra shadow starts dulling, which reflects itself back into the real world. No one really believes in this, but it remains true.
 
Making them not matter by calcifying the universe till no one can awaken doesn't mean they stop being real any more then saying then saying the earth is flat makes it real in our universe. We know that Avatars are Avatars because, among other things, technocrats have advantages like 'My Avatar comes from one of the original Craftmasons, so I maintain that fundamental belief in humanity that has died in the modern nights.'*

It's like saying the Umbra doesn't matter and reflect reality. You can occult the relationship, but it remains real. The Technocracy is ideologically driven to deny the underpinning of reality, preferring the superficial aspects that bend to their design, and trying to hide the rest in a corner like a child that's broken it's toys and doesn't want it's parents to find out. Yes, you can raise the Gauntlet till blatant obvious animism disappears, but the Umbra shadow keeps acting as a more subtle voodoo doll to want it's connected to, and their is a host of bad side effect that are part of raising the Guantlet too high.

Lots of those things, in fact, actually ultimately make people more vulnerable to spiritual predators. Dragons are (by)gone, but Fomori have never been so common. A low gauntlet encourages spirit and matter to cross in dangerous ways that can threaten life, yes. But it's also associated with imagination, hope, empathy, and vibrant life. Lots of people living intensity, living full satisfying lives, lowers the gauntlet as a feedback cycle, where raising it causes the reverse. Mages are pretty resistant to that kind of effect, though not immune as that kind of enviroment encourages Clarity just like death encourages Jhor, but they're a minority of the population.

Raise the Gauntlet to high for to long, as the Umbra shadow starts dulling, which reflects itself back into the real world. No one really believes in this, but it remains true.

According to who? The Traditions. Who have their own paradigm they believe to be 'the truth'. Who have every reason to say the Technocracy is lying, blind, causing ruin.

The Technocracy believes that they are justified. They believe the Traditions to be superstitionist fools, who would bring ruin by allowing alien monsters into Earth. Who would lie and trick the masses for their own game.

The idea that truth and reality are up for grabs is kind of the premise.

*Pretty sure that the Technocracy has noetic etc. theories if they need to explain things like past life memories what have you. Or, if it is simply a matter of 'has faith in humanity' then they... have faith in humanity. I would like to see the citation though.
 
According to who? The Traditions. Who have their own paradigm they believe to be 'the truth'. Who have every reason to say the Technocracy is lying, blind, causing ruin.

The Technocracy believes that they are justified. They believe the Traditions to be superstitionist fools, who would bring ruin by allowing alien monsters into Earth. Who would lie and trick the masses for their own game.

The idea that truth and reality are up for grabs is kind of the premise.

*Pretty sure that the Technocracy has noetic etc. theories if they need to explain things like past life memories what have you. Or, if it is simply a matter of 'has faith in humanity' then they... have faith in humanity. I would like to see the citation though.

Inner Knight (5 pt. merit)Like an heir of Avalon, you possess a higher purpose. Other Technocrats may be working for the future, but you carry a vision of a glorious past. In your dreams, you are a Knight of Reason, a valiant crusader for the common good. No matter what occurs, that vision cannot be silenced. When adversity knocks you on your ass, the paladin within you rallies, carrying you to victory. At night, you often visit bygone places in incredibly vivid dreams. Dreams that seem almost disturbing in their sensory detail... especially if you find things in the waking world that remind you of those dreams....
Essentially, this Merit reflects a "past life" – the reincarnated Avatar of an ancient Daedalean. Since no modern Technocrat would admit such a thing, your character considers this reborn soul a heroic dream. When he's facing some deadly crisis, the modern agent can call on his "dream self" and remember things he never learned (like historical details and personalities); display skills he was never taught (like the Background: Dream at 5, but without entering a trance); or rally an additional five points of Willpower. These temporary Traits and memories last only a few minutes (in game time, a scene or two), but they carry with them a sense of having lived before. Naturally, these visions – of being a knight, an artist, an alchemist or crusader – are just romantic fantasies. But are they really? After a while, you might start to wonder...

Also, read the section on Genius in Guide to the Technocracy. It dances around the subject rather then saying it flat out, but it's very much saying they're all lying to themselves to varying extents. Which is by design.

Because the Technocrats are in the wrong, by design. They were built from day one to be the bad guys, to be a active source of harm in the world, and if left unchecked become a worse one. Being self-delusional is part of that.
 
Reading all this discussion really makes me want to play in a Mage game, because it all looks just so damn interesting. Seriously, this sounds like it would be great fun to play around with. Makes me sad I never noticed Mage earlier.
 
Didn't even the book written from their perspective talk about Technocratic agents needing monthly brainwashing sessions, otherwise they'd all defect?
 
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Didn't even the book written from their perspective talk about Technocratic agents needing monthly brainwashing sessions, otherwise they'd all defect?

Yeah. They also randomly murder people who might awaken who, despite almost certainly being technocratic in alignment, doesn't fit their personality profile. They do this by such methods as driving a car into the side of their family care while they're whole family is in it. Because it's worth it to brainwash hostile mages, but teaching a novice who doesn't already agree with you is too much work.

There's a reason why, when talking about defection there's more talk about technocrats defecting to the Traditions then the reverse, even though the Technocracy is winning, and brainwashes everyone whose a member.
 
Didn't even the book written from their perspective talk about Technocratic agents needing monthly brainwashing sessions, otherwise they'd all defect?

I've not read the book in question, but that sounds kind of silly to me. I mean, there's surely some brainwashing and enforced loyalty going on to one degree or another within all ranks, but wouldn't a good deal of the lower echelons be pretty deeply into the party line anyway? They'd think they were saving the world and helping people, and getting paid to do it! Seems to me that it's the middle to upper levels that might become disillusioned with the Technocracy and be more at risk of defecting than the majority of the Union.
 
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Also, read the section on Genius in Guide to the Technocracy. It dances around the subject rather then saying it flat out, but it's very much saying they're all lying to themselves to varying extents. Which is by design.

Because the Technocrats are in the wrong, by design. They were built from day one to be the bad guys, to be a active source of harm in the world, and if left unchecked become a worse one. Being self-delusional is part of that.
Yes, that was the writers intent. No one is denying that. At all.

What at people are saying that the writers failed to take into account the implications of what they wrote, and once you consider the consequences, the setting doesn't actually convey what they intended. See my previous post about why you are arguing past MJ instead of against him.

@Imrix nope, just read guide to the technocracy. It says that indoctrination allows subliminal commands/attitudes can be placed, and at 7 levels of it, traditions mages have been successfully brainwashed into technocrats. i didn't see anything about people running away if indoctrination is removed. The VE's cannonically remove it all the time. Most Crats don't get more than 3 levels of indoctrination anyway, IIRC. The high levels of it are for traditions conversions and control's sleeper agents.
 
Man, I have a massive soft spot for M:tAs but I have to admit that what it's best at is starting flamewars on the internet.

So, can anyone tell me if I can call a cab with correspondence? :V
 
The VE's cannonically remove it all the time.

Actually, amusingly enough at least according to the first Void Engineer conventionbook, no, they don't remove it. They just redirect it, so Void Engineers are loyal to the Void Engineers rather than the Technocratic Union. There are also ways that things get phrased in VE Revised which imply there's something like that still going on.

Of course, when you get down to it, oMage's metaphysics state that to try to persuade someone of something is an act of magic - because everything is magic. And then you start asking the little questions, like "What's the difference between Technocratic Conditioning and the kind of fanatical loyalty which Euthanatoi death-commandos exhibit?" and "When you remove the line's bias, a lot of the Traditions groups are cults and cults use all the same methods ascribed to make up Conditioning, so... uh?".

But you can't ask those kinds of questions, or then you might start asking questions like "So, if the Technocracy is largely made up of the conspiracy theories of the right wing, doesn't that mean that a lot of Traditionalists are going to be rather more like the kind of person who joined the John Birch Society and the kind of person who raves about how transnational progressives are trying to subvert America?". And that's just cheating.
 
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