White Wolf's World of Darkness
Wade Garrett
Just trying to do the right thing
- Pronouns
- He/His/Him
It would fit beautifully with a Lovecraft inspired setting, wouldn't it? 
"Look at that! Look at it, being all different, with its weird and different appearance and its weird food and music and religion and there's more of them coming and they'll make where we live look like where they live!"
And then for political machines you have the cults and secret societies, "Stick with us, we'll take care of you, also you need to eat our enemies from time to time, salvage sunken treasure off the ocean floor, and in return you get to squat rent free in this slum"...
And so on and so forth.
"Look at that! Look at it, being all different, with its weird and different appearance and its weird food and music and religion and there's more of them coming and they'll make where we live look like where they live!"
And then for political machines you have the cults and secret societies, "Stick with us, we'll take care of you, also you need to eat our enemies from time to time, salvage sunken treasure off the ocean floor, and in return you get to squat rent free in this slum"...
And so on and so forth.
I think that was largely Beast.
The Demon Storyteller's Guide is surprisingly good, and has a pretty good analysis of spy movie genres and how to make Demon fit into them. @davebrookshaw has talked about MtAw 2E and there's some actually pretty interesting things there like how they're making it consistent with the rest of the game, and Sardonyx is actually shaping up to be very well done (thanks @IanWatson!)
But like, when you're a IP holding company which outsources a lot, some things are going to be of mixed quality, like Beast.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I think that was largely Beast.
The Demon Storyteller's Guide is surprisingly good, and has a pretty good analysis of spy movie genres and how to make Demon fit into them. @davebrookshaw has talked about MtAw 2E and there's some actually pretty interesting things there like how they're making it consistent with the rest of the game, and Sardonyx is actually shaping up to be very well done (thanks @IanWatson!)
But like, when you're a IP holding company which outsources a lot, some things are going to be of mixed quality, like Beast.
What was 2e Werewolf like?
I haven't heard much of WtF 2e so I assume it isn't horrible.
- Location
- Brittany, France
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- He/Him
I hold strong hopes that MtAw 2e will be the edition that finally gets me into Mage.
TenfoldShields
Lounging on a Hoard of Words
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- He/Him
Nah nah I think you could still make it work actually. A big problem with immigration is the othering. The you-are-different-you-do-no-deserve-our-sympathy. Like, idk, for a really reductionist thought exercise: take an immigrant from, say, Syria and some small town in upstate New York's favored son. What's the difference? The real difference I mean? Sure one's had a much happier life, much better opportunities, a better QoL. Sure there are cultural things and personality differences too. A language barrier isn't anything to disregard.
But when you get right down to it they're both still people. And as easy as it is to Other the one and embrace the other, they're both still human with human wants and needs and fears. The latter just sort of lucked out in a big way.
"Cut me do I not bleed" and all that. You could pull that with Beast maybe.
Pretty good imo! Like from a lore perspective. Of course I just came off of reading a bunch of WTA so the lack of dogrape already made it fucking amazing from my POV.
My perspective may have been skewed a bit.
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notanautomaton
I've got 99 quests, I've finished one
I read it a while ago, and it seems to be a serviceable werewolf game. My only real complaints are that it focuses too much on the new bad guys, the Idigam, and that having each Tribe specialize on a different kind of enemy feels rather shoehorned in.
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
I'm sure you could, but why would you bother? It is simply so much easier to just straight up use Outsiders and other such extra-dimensional creatures, it fits like a glove and ties back to the root of the Lovecraftian genre. Aka: Racist as fuck.
It's like Vampires with rape metaphors. Sure you could do it with some other creature, but Vampires just fits so well that there is no point in trying to be clever.
Should have called the new bad guys the Idgaf really
"Why are they called this?"
"Because nobody actually gives a fuck about them"
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I think I do remember struggling a little bit with the magic system, slightly? Can anyone, like, briefly walk me through how W:TF 2e Magic works?
Like, @TenfoldShields , you sound like you might know it.
I struggled because it's not Changeling, and considering I just came off of long essays in this very thread about Changeling magic and so on, it's probable that I merely am too used to Changeling to easily adapt to other magical structures when reading stuff.
Edit: Like, example. Let's say I want to make Brutal McTearsToShredsSon/dotter The Werewolf. Combat focus, stereotypical in some ways, gender, name, etc don't matter, I'm more talking about what sort of magic said currently genderless entity would possibly be learning.
Like, @TenfoldShields , you sound like you might know it.
I struggled because it's not Changeling, and considering I just came off of long essays in this very thread about Changeling magic and so on, it's probable that I merely am too used to Changeling to easily adapt to other magical structures when reading stuff.
Edit: Like, example. Let's say I want to make Brutal McTearsToShredsSon/dotter The Werewolf. Combat focus, stereotypical in some ways, gender, name, etc don't matter, I'm more talking about what sort of magic said currently genderless entity would possibly be learning.
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TenfoldShields
Lounging on a Hoard of Words
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Oh you poor soul, coming to me for help. Right, lemme see if I can mangle my way through this:
Werewolves are spirit-flesh hybrids and can use spiritual Essence to power their
By far the most effective and efficient way of recovering Essence though is to eat a wolf or a human where you can get a point of Essence for every point of damage. Naturally this is a huge fucking sin and sends the wolf in question plunging towards a Spirit breaking point. Surprisingly cannibalism is not a thing that polite people do.
You can use Essence a lot more passively than Changelings I think. You can boost your healing, speed crossing into the Shadow/Hisil at a non-Locus point, activate a Fetish (spirit-bound weapons or tools) or use Gifts. Gifts are basically auto-cast stuff that gets tattooed onto the core of your being. Getting them is fairly unpleasant and usually a fairly Big Deal, in practice they're generally fairly utilitarian. Based around inflicting debuffs towards prey or buffing other werewolves or yourself. They're usually restricted by auspice too.
Some are fairly impressive though, high level spirit shamans can perfectly disguise themselves as a spirit and pass for one of them. If you get an elemental Gift you can call down spiritual artillery basically. But as a general rule they're oriented towards "I'm a horror movie monster" type stuff. Like causing electronics to fail or dividing the group or sniffing out weakness. That kind of stuff.
Edit: Ah, wait, re-reading most Fetishes don't require Essence to use. They do require a fair bit of Essence and skill to make though, and sometimes specific skills to use properly, so it evens out.
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As others have said it was good. 1e had the problem where you felt less like a werewolf and more like a furry beat cop. 2e feels much more primal and werewolves are actually fucking scary.
Wade Garrett
Just trying to do the right thing
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- He/His/Him
Well, you can do a lot of stuff, but...
Okay, up thread I'm reading a lot of the complaints with Beast were "Damnit I want to play as a Primordial Monster, I want to be the Cyclops or the Minotaur or a bloody DRAGON, not a passive-aggressive as all hell bureaucratic prick."
And to me, it's a bit iffy to reconcile theme "A primordial monster is you, player" with theme "Stop othering me I'm just like you NPCs and antagonists".
The latter theme would be meat and potatoes of an "It's totally not about immigration guys" setting, the former...what I'm saying is, when you're going around literally turning into a dragon wrapped around a big pile of gold, "pls wait no bully I'm just like you" rings a tad hollow, you know?
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TenfoldShields
Lounging on a Hoard of Words
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Point. And yeah in retrospect you're pretty spot on with the Lovecraftian exiles bit, which honestly would work better with the immigrant metaphor.
Beast is kinda thorny because it's so bad, so horrible on so many levels that it's just like...fractally wrong. So the question of how to plausibly fix it is really sort of tricky. Especially since the conceit of Beasts doesn't really lend itself well to being on the wrong side of the power equation (though I suppose you could make an argument with shit like, impoverished dragons, blinded cyclopses, and that whole deal but now I'm just groping for straws
). And it's harder to make the powerful sympathetic versus, like, enticing? Escapist maybe. Which....Guh. Puts us right back on the track to "Beasts are abusers and Onyx Path sometimes writes with entire cuts of ham for hands".
Make Beast about playing kings and queens and important one percenters whose fatal flaw is that their own actions eventually create their downfall.
It's all about hubris in a direct way. It's playing those rich assholes who you know will get their comeuppance and cheer when they do, but they just ooze style while they're being assholes.
notanautomaton
I've got 99 quests, I've finished one
I think that that should have been how they changed Beast. Instead of clumsily inserting 'teach spooky lessons,' just get rid of all the stuff making them minority allegories and make it clear that they're the 'oppressed' upper class.
I never really got the 'oppressed minority' vibe from Beast. Was that what they were aiming for or is it something the community read into it? To me it seemed more of a "we have needs that damage others but we still deserve to live" thing. As well as "we need this to live, why should we feel bad about it?".
Deadly Snark
Tryhard As Fuck
Well I have been thinking about this, and the idea I had was to try to make Beast an allegory of Class Warfare/Inequality. Though I am definitely not good enough of a writer to do this kind of thorny subject intelligently or subtly.Point. And yeah in retrospect you're pretty spot on with the Lovecraftian exiles bit, which honestly would work better with the immigrant metaphor.
Beast is kinda thorny because it's so bad, so horrible on so many levels that it's just like...fractally wrong. So the question of how to plausibly fix it is really sort of tricky. Especially since the conceit of Beasts doesn't really lend itself well to being on the wrong side of the power equation (though I suppose you could make an argument with shit like, impoverished dragons, blinded cyclopses, and that whole deal but now I'm just groping for straws
Guh. Puts us right back on the track to "Beasts are abusers and Onyx Path sometimes writes with entire cuts of ham for hands".
But anyways. Dragons, Vampires, Werewolves and others you know the big famous and powerful Monsters that sticks around in the cultural sphere so much that basically everyone have the same idea of what they are, act and look like. They would be the 1%, the powerful, the legends, they appear everywhere and from those appearances they gain some kind of energy that makes them more swole, allow them to reproduce and make their family groups better off in general. They are the ones who can afford to lay back, to not terrorize a village for energy and who can afford to be generous to donate energy to the less fortunate and to help others just to make themselves feel better.
Oh the other hand of the spectrum, you would have the more local monsters that are less well-know. Things such as Skinwalkers, Wendigoes and others. These guys have less cultural impact these days, because all the Super Monsters are taking all the notoriety, which leaves them starved. So they are forced by this system to go out and terrorize small towns. Some might kill people, others might just raid livestock, and others might just scare the shit out of kids for a living. The point is they have to generate emotions, which produces energy, which they can use to feed themselves and their families.
Heroes in this Beast would probably play the roles of the cops, lawyers, law-makers, investigators and such. And as you can imagine. Heroes would have an easier time going after the latter than the former. For one, because the less famous monsters would be much weaker, and because they attract more attention. Where as the Powerful ones can lay low and enjoy a good life. Like how small criminals are far more likely to get fucked by the justice system, while it is almost impossible for the rich to get brought to account.
And you can see why I stop, because one that really is more of a Antagonist splat than a Protagonists one, two I wasn't sure what the Middle Class would be in this metaphor like maybe ordinary people? Or maybe the middle class should be the local monsters and the poor should be Urban Legends? And It just kind of broke down is what I am saying. Also finally after a while I realized: "Wait, this is starting to look like Vampire now. Shit." + "Oh wow, Beasts are just terrible people/creatures and this is actually not that different from the original pitch. Fuck."
I honestly think trying to make Beast about all the Monsters of Myth is it's biggest mistake. If they had focused down on one specific sort of monster it would work much better. But as it stands, the whole concept is just so broad that you are either aping another gameline or you make an incoherent mess.
ganonso
Compulsive Quest Starter
- Location
- PACA France
Something the community read into it by taking some character examples like the "straw feminist" (never got that vibe from her but here you go). While the reading was so common it reveals AN UTTER FAILURE AT WRITING(tm), it was not intended.
How do we know that? The lead writier flat-out denied it was the metaphor (I'll seach my post history but I linked the post on RPG.NET). I think the answer was something like "If we did make a minority metaphor we would have handled it far more better than that".
AshenFox
Copy Control, we are a go.
- Location
- Sector 13
*looks back at past White Wolf books...*
Uh... sure you would. And I'm going to wake up tomorrow as a Mage.
Nah it was intended as you being the persecuted minority, the reading that he had a problem with was the one that very easily made Beasts into societys hatefull opressors that look down on minoritys.
Honestly getting to play the hateful oppressor could be a good thing for a RPG if you presented it as, well, an actual Bad Thing rather than "slavery was totes good for the slave amirite" *sips mint julep*
You're the rich Civil-war era slaveholding plantation owner, the dragon, the asshole. You think of yourself as a good guy. It's a game about the cognitive dissonance of holding these different viewpoints, and a game where the default tone is a tragedy, where in the end your actions create the heroes which destroy you. You're the out of touch nobles, and your decadence while other people suffer and starve leads to the revolution and the guillotine. When the Union soldiers find your plantation they find that you've been killed by farm tools and the slaves certainly don't know what happened no sir they did not take turns avenging every sin you committed against them. You're the dictator whose mutilated body is found in a ditch next to his bombed-out custom bulletproof limo.
Kind of like the Exalted 1E 'default' tone taken to 11. You're the real monster. The point of playing is because sometimes indulging that fantasy of being the villain is fun-especially when you have the catharsis of knowing that the villain, in the end, dies. To that mechanic, I'd make it so that every time you play as the Beast, you start building each other's Heroes. Your game is about creating the very Heroes-who might not be great people either but certainly have a noble aim-that will destroy you.
To quote FEAR-"it is the nature of men to make monsters; and the nature of monsters to destroy their makers." So the campaign is about how you ended up making these specific heroes.