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White Wolf's World of Darkness

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Wolf Ritter said:
The problem with that is that it creates an artificial barrier to entry: Players are not going to be invested in a game with no plot and new GMs or Storytellers or what have you are likely to not have the experience needed to world-build their own chronicle and be intimidated by the prospect.
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... Okay? That's a call for some initial story hooks to get the ball rolling, not a game-wide metaplot. Oh look, Fetches, Court plothooks.
 
Aleph said:
Beware the terrible 60° that will pursue you, heedless of the collateral destruction it causes so long as it can geometrically bisect you.
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I don't know why you guys are so scared of the angles. Some of them are awfully acute. While it is also true that some of the angles are obtuse and mean I am sure that the rumors that they have grown so big from cannibalizing other angles is just an urban myth.
 
Actually, okay, one thing I really dislike about the Changeling 2E rules, as odd as it sounds, is that it literally made Changelings psychic evil vampires. Like, I liked the fact that Glamour Harvesting from emotions wasn't actually stealing from someone directly, and so that there was some moral ambiguity.

Instead, the target loses ALL willpower, cannot regain willpower, and becomes a 'dull reflection of who they were'. After a SINGLE glamour point of emotional harvesting (or more, but even one counts). And it lasts for a Week or Wyrd x 2, whichever is longer.

I mean, holy shit. If you wanted to just make a splat of evil psychic vampires, then just fucking do it already, rather than making Changelings into evil psychic vampires.

*Honestly I'm kinda freaking out/flipping out right now.*

Edit: Also, while Touchstones can be kinda cool as a Vampire 2E thing, it just gets kinda annoying when you reuse the mechanic for Changelings because it just increases the 'we have no ideas let's make them psychic vampires' vibe.

No seriously, it's just a copy-paste of the Vampire's Mask and Dirge thing, complete with Touchstone.

Edit 2: Let me admit, in other contexts or done the right way, I can actually really get behind the *concept* of Touchstones as being something Changelings have, though I'm not sure how much mechanical weight I'd give it in tying it to clarity. It's just, in the context of the 4-5 other different things the template did to turn Changelings into knockoff psychic vampires, it's just grating to see wholesale lifting from another system.
 
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The Laurent said:
Instead, the target loses ALL willpower, cannot regain willpower, and becomes a 'dull reflection of who they were'. After a SINGLE glamour point of emotional harvesting (or more, but even one counts). And it lasts for a Week or Wyrd x 2, whichever is longer.
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What the hell? I mean, i would undertand if they made so that Harvesting causes a little emotional dulling, to make it harder and to incentivice activities that make the targets feel strong emotions, but that is just absurd. It puts changelings at the level of Exalted raksha.
 
Changeling the Lost was my favorite from NWoD. IMO Lost's backstory even fit better tonally in the OWoD, but other than being really cool to read I agree with hyzmarca it did feel like there was little point other than cringing in the shadows compared to Dreaming's goals. I still love reading Lost, but no one I knew could ever think of what to do with it plot wise.
 
The Laurent said:
Instead, the target loses ALL willpower, cannot regain willpower, and becomes a 'dull reflection of who they were'. After a SINGLE glamour point of emotional harvesting (or more, but even one counts). And it lasts for a Week or Wyrd x 2, whichever is longer.
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Ah ha.

So basically "killing changelings" is only slightly less morally acceptable as killing vampires, because just as the world would literally just be a better place if every vampire was staked out for the sun, any changeling who spends Glamour earned from harvesting is a selfish psychic leech who's basically ruining lives.

Honestly, this is showing the massive lack of self-awareness that Beast did. Vampire shows self-awareness that every single vampire who doesn't keep to a strict animal diet makes the world a worse place, and because of that self-awareness vampires can be sympathetic. They're sympathetic because the gameline acknowledges that they're selfish, but they're selfish because they don't want to die. They know what they do is bad, and so they make up rationalisations and excuses and pretend that they're not awful parasites. It's an understandable and very human selfishness. Beast - and this, it seems - don't show that self-awareness, and thus just have you being unneedingly awful in generating your power points because... some reason. DARKNESS, maybe.

So glad I have written off nWoD 2e already because of the GMC rules.
 
EarthScorpion said:
Ah ha.

So basically "killing changelings" is only slightly less morally acceptable as killing vampires, because just as the world would literally just be a better place if every vampire was staked out for the sun, any changeling who spends Glamour earned from harvesting is a selfish psychic leech who's basically ruining lives.

Honestly, this is showing the massive lack of self-awareness that Beast did. Vampire shows self-awareness that every single vampire who doesn't keep to a strict animal diet makes the world a worse place, and because of that self-awareness vampires can be sympathetic. They're sympathetic because the gameline acknowledges that they're selfish, but they're selfish because they don't want to die. They know what they do is bad, and so they make up rationalisations and excuses and pretend that they're not awful parasites. It's an understandable and very human selfishness. Beast - and this, it seems - don't show that self-awareness, and thus just have you being unneedingly awful in generating your power points because... some reason. DARKNESS, maybe.

So glad I have written off nWoD 2e already because of the GMC rules.
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What was the issue with the GMC rules? And what's the big deal with Beast? I tend to hear it bandied around as if it was the actual Satanic Beast of game design, out to be the heartbreaker to end all heartbreakers but I've never heard why.
 
Mutton said:
What was the issue with the GMC rules? And what's the big deal with Beast? I tend to hear it bandied around as if it was the actual Satanic Beast of game design, out to be the heartbreaker to end all heartbreakers but I've never heard why.
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Beast actively encourages you to roleplay sadistic sociopathic monsters without ever suggesting or even appearing to consider the possibility that "being a sadistic sociopathic monster" is in any way a bad thing. In fact it tends to cast them as being either morally justified, or as minority groups suffering prejudice, and shows an equal lack of consideration or care for what messages it might be sending by drawing direct and deliberate parallels between "minority groups" and "sadistic sociopathic monsters", not to mention "social justice activism" and "graphic revenge fantasies and psychic torture porn".

It is not for nothing that people have ceased on one of the NPC antagonists as the only positive or heroic entity in the entire sourcebook.

And lest you think I exaggerate here; I am if anything understating matters.
 
Aleph said:
Beast actively encourages you to roleplay sadistic sociopathic monsters without ever suggesting or even appearing to consider the possibility that "being a sadistic sociopathic monster" is in any way a bad thing. In fact it tends to cast them as being either morally justified, or as minority groups suffering prejudice, and shows an equal lack of consideration or care for what messages it might be sending by drawing direct and deliberate parallels between "minority groups" and "sadistic sociopathic monsters", not to mention "social justice activism" and "graphic revenge fantasies and psychic torture porn".

It is not for nothing that people have ceased on one of the NPC antagonists as the only positive or heroic entity in the entire sourcebook.

And lest you think I exaggerate here; I am if anything understating matters.
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So I just checked the wiki and good god. If they're trying to tie that into minority issues that's the most racist thing I've seen since the goddamn Gypsies book. Is it really using Otherkin as a metaphor for minority groups AND saying that the bad stereotypes about said minority groups are true via the Hunger mechanics?
 
The Laurent said:
Actually, okay, one thing I really dislike about the Changeling 2E rules, as odd as it sounds, is that it literally made Changelings psychic evil vampires. Like, I liked the fact that Glamour Harvesting from emotions wasn't actually stealing from someone directly, and so that there was some moral ambiguity.

Instead, the target loses ALL willpower, cannot regain willpower, and becomes a 'dull reflection of who they were'. After a SINGLE glamour point of emotional harvesting (or more, but even one counts). And it lasts for a Week or Wyrd x 2, whichever is longer.

I mean, holy shit. If you wanted to just make a splat of evil psychic vampires, then just fucking do it already, rather than making Changelings into evil psychic vampires.

*Honestly I'm kinda freaking out/flipping out right now.*

Edit: Also, while Touchstones can be kinda cool as a Vampire 2E thing, it just gets kinda annoying when you reuse the mechanic for Changelings because it just increases the 'we have no ideas let's make them psychic vampires' vibe.

No seriously, it's just a copy-paste of the Vampire's Mask and Dirge thing, complete with Touchstone.

Edit 2: Let me admit, in other contexts or done the right way, I can actually really get behind the *concept* of Touchstones as being something Changelings have, though I'm not sure how much mechanical weight I'd give it in tying it to clarity. It's just, in the context of the 4-5 other different things the template did to turn Changelings into knockoff psychic vampires, it's just grating to see wholesale lifting from another system.
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... The fuck? Wow, now there's even less chance that I'll care about 2E then there was before.
 
Mutton said:
So I just checked the wiki and good god. If they're trying to tie that into minority issues that's the most racist thing I've seen since the goddamn Gypsies book. Is it really using Otherkin as a metaphor for minority groups AND saying that the bad stereotypes about said minority groups are true via the Hunger mechanics?
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No, the lead writier specifically said that people reading Beasts as a metaphor for minorities was a failure of the writing team. The metaphor was unintended.
 
Imrix said:
... Okay? That's a call for some initial story hooks to get the ball rolling, not a game-wide metaplot. Oh look, Fetches, Court plothooks.
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That's actually pretty par for the course for nWoD stuff at least iirc? Like in every book/gameline they provide a variety of hooks "here's how X could be used!". I remember one from Changeling I think was just what happens when one of the Seasons Courts becomes so strong that they can refuse to hand over power (and then, somewhat unsurprisingly, refuse to hand over power) and then it elaborated a bit on what could spall off from that and what could contribute to that. That's a pretty solid hook.

It's hardly like they're throwing you in the deep-end and going "figure it out fuckboy".

The Laurent said:
Actually, okay, one thing I really dislike about the Changeling 2E rules, as odd as it sounds, is that it literally made Changelings psychic evil vampires. Like, I liked the fact that Glamour Harvesting from emotions wasn't actually stealing from someone directly, and so that there was some moral ambiguity.

Instead, the target loses ALL willpower, cannot regain willpower, and becomes a 'dull reflection of who they were'. After a SINGLE glamour point of emotional harvesting (or more, but even one counts). And it lasts for a Week or Wyrd x 2, whichever is longer.

I mean, holy shit. If you wanted to just make a splat of evil psychic vampires, then just fucking do it already, rather than making Changelings into evil psychic vampires.

*Honestly I'm kinda freaking out/flipping out right now.*

Edit: Also, while Touchstones can be kinda cool as a Vampire 2E thing, it just gets kinda annoying when you reuse the mechanic for Changelings because it just increases the 'we have no ideas let's make them psychic vampires' vibe.

No seriously, it's just a copy-paste of the Vampire's Mask and Dirge thing, complete with Touchstone.

Edit 2: Let me admit, in other contexts or done the right way, I can actually really get behind the *concept* of Touchstones as being something Changelings have, though I'm not sure how much mechanical weight I'd give it in tying it to clarity. It's just, in the context of the 4-5 other different things the template did to turn Changelings into knockoff psychic vampires, it's just grating to see wholesale lifting from another system.
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*Angry Kermit Noises*

Fffffuuuuccccckkkkk you gently Onyx Path.

With a volume of Changing Breeds for good measure.

Mutton said:
So I just checked the wiki and good god. If they're trying to tie that into minority issues that's the most racist thing I've seen since the goddamn Gypsies book. Is it really using Otherkin as a metaphor for minority groups AND saying that the bad stereotypes about said minority groups are true via the Hunger mechanics?
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Oh man did you see the Health Inspector Beast? Or the literally monstrous feminist?
 
ganonso said:
No, the lead writier specifically said that people reading Beasts as a metaphor for minorities was a failure of the writing team. The metaphor was unintended.
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So what is the underlying metaphor for Beast?

TenfoldShields said:
That's actually pretty par for the course for nWoD stuff at least iirc? Like in every book/gameline they provide a variety of hooks "here's how X could be used!". I remember one from Changeling I think was just what happens when one of the Seasons Courts becomes so strong that they can refuse to hand over power (and then, somewhat unsurprisingly, refuse to hand over power) and then it elaborated a bit on what could spall off from that and what could contribute to that. That's a pretty solid hook.

It's hardly like they're throwing you in the deep-end and going "figure it out fuckboy".




*Angry Kermit Noises*

Fffffuuuuccccckkkkk you gently Onyx Path.

With a volume of Changing Breeds for good measure.



Oh man did you see the Health Inspector Beast? Or the literally monstrous feminist?
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I require Health Inspector Beast now. For my nWoD Bikini Bottom game.
 
ganonso said:
No, the lead writier specifically said that people reading Beasts as a metaphor for minorities was a failure of the writing team. The metaphor was unintended.
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That would hold up a lot better if there wasn't literally a signature character who is the most overblown caricature of a straw feminist that it is physically possible to write. Like, good grief, she deliberately provokes people into mansplaining things to her, then verbally tears into them and smugly beats the shit out of them if they get violent. And considers herself absolutely rooted in the moral high ground for this.
 
Aleph said:
That would hold up a lot better if there wasn't literally a signature character who is the most overblown caricature of a straw feminist that it is physically possible to write. Like, good grief, she deliberately provokes people into mansplaining things to her, then verbally tears into them and smugly beats the shit out of them if they get violent. And considers herself absolutely rooted in the moral high ground for this.
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I just read that; I said earlier that this might be based on a complete misreading of Inglorious Basterds. Let me substitute in Good Will Hunting there.

I could see much of this run in a comedic setting well; you can basically do the IT Crowd or The Office and explain away the quirks perfectly! But god, it just seems so damn bland.
 
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