You're claiming that Changeling: The Dreaming has a better/more interesting plot than Changeling: The Lost? :wtf:

Changeling: The Dreaming has a more compelling hook to drive your characters. In The Dreaming, you're actively fighting against Banality, which is an apocalyptic force slowly killing your soul, and the souls of every other changeling. But you can rage against the dying of the light and bring wonder back to the world of man. And then you've got the conflict between the returning nobles, who want to reassert their rule, and the commoners who were quite happy without them.

In the Lost, you're basically abused children who escaped their tormentors and are desperately afraid of going back. It's a stronger personal horror, but it's not a compelling reason to actually do anything, other than stay as far away from the supernatural as possible.
 
Changeling: The Dreaming has a more compelling hook to drive your characters. In The Dreaming, you're actively fighting against Banality, which is an apocalyptic force slowly killing your soul, and the souls of every other changeling. But you can rage against the dying of the light and bring wonder back to the world of man. And then you've got the conflict between the returning nobles, who want to reassert their rule, and the commoners who were quite happy without them.

In the Lost, you're basically abused children who escaped their tormentors and are desperately afraid of going back. It's a stronger personal horror, but it's not a compelling reason to actually do anything, other than stay as far away from the supernatural as possible.

You're hilarious, you know that.

Never change.
 
NOO!!! My mobile hollow! :cry: How will Granny Goblin move her garden about to get the best sunlight now?! Or Arturo, how will his Mobile Art Palace get from place to place to sell his beautiful creations, and set up to help build and design Beautiful Hollows! :cry:
Also, NOOO!!!!! My Changeling Biker! I enjoyed riding around on the Cthulhu-esque monster that looked like this ridiculously ostentatious motorcycle. Now I'm just better off making a fucking hedge spun bike or something.

Banality, thy name is Onyx Path Publishing!!!!
 
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NOO!!! My mobile hollow! :cry: How will Granny Goblin move her garden about to get the best sunlight now?! Or Arturo, how will his Mobile Art Palace get from place to place to sell his beautiful creations, and set up to help build and design Beautiful Hollows! :cry:
Also, NOOO!!!!! My Changeling Biker! I enjoyed riding around on the Cthulhu-esque monster that looked like this ridiculously ostentatious motorcycle. Now I'm just better off making a fucking hedge spun bike or something.

Banality, thy name is Onyx Path Publishing!!!!

...my Quest has German Hedgespun-Car makers.
 
I honestly think he has a point though I'll admit my knowledge of either is rather skimpy.

His point and understanding of Changeling: The Lost could use some help...and I am reasonably sure if I put out the right signals, I'd get an explanation about the, erm, implications of banality.

But yeah, most of all is the 'he's hilariously wrong about C:TL, since I only know C:TD by reputation' point.
 
The question of whether big, over-arching meta-plots is a good thing is one of those things that's been simmering ever since the nWoD came out.

But Dreaming was a mess even among the other messy oWoD lines, so...
 
The question of whether big, over-arching meta-plots is a good thing is one of those things that's been simmering ever since the nWoD came out.

But Dreaming was a mess even among the other messy oWoD lines, so...


I don't think that's really a question anymore. The answer is certainly yes. Incomprehensible metaplots are bad because they are incomprehensible. Convoluted metaplots are bad because they are convoluted. But not having a metaplot at all is much, much worse.

But yes, Dreaming was a mess. Still, the hook was better. It gave you a very good reason to try to change the world. That's better for plots and games in general.
 
...my Quest has German Hedgespun-Car makers.
But I didn't want a German Hedgespun-Car. Click Click was the mount that carried me home from Arcadia! He was my best friend and we went everywhere together! And yes it was incredibly awkward at times!

Also now Granny Goblin can't get around either, since she literally road a Broomstick with Chicken Legs who's Mask was a mobility scooter.

And poor Arturo. His beautiful Spider Legged 'Snow Globe Castle' is no more. Now it's just a castle that can have a phone booth. :sad:
 
His point and understanding of Changeling: The Lost could use some help...and I am reasonably sure if I put out the right signals, I'd get an explanation about the, erm, implications of banality.

But yeah, most of all is the 'he's hilariously wrong about C:TL, since I only know C:TD by reputation' point.
Huh, I thought that Lost was a metaphor for abuse? He didn't really expand on it but that's what it as it's core. Of escaping and trying make something of yourself in the strange world that's been opened to your eyes even as your captors lurk, inscrutable.

As for Metaplots, I like them. They're interesting andvif it comes down to I just cut off the parts I don't like.
 
You could try actually you know, supporting your point rather than "lol no you're wrong."

@hyzmarca is correct in the most technical way and contrary to popular belief being technically correct is not the best kind of correct. Rather its the most pedantic, unhelpful kind and their motives in polishing C:tD to a spit-shine with their tongue are about as transparent as a square of saran wrap.

So...yeah they're right (sorta) about the PC's basically being an abuse victim. They're wrong (definitely) about the PC's having no real motivation to do anything but cool their heels and try to duck the supernatural. A fair number of pages within the core book are given over to the major factions within the Changeling freeholds that are largely characterized on what the proper role of Changelings in the Fallen World is. And what Court you belong to (Spring, Summer, Autumn, Winter, et. al.) has a fairly big impact on your character since a. Changeling society is all about wheeling and dealing and intrigue. And b. it helps codify what particular flavor of emotion a character feeds off of. What emotions they try to incite in others. Wrath for Summer for instance. Or Sorrow for Winter.

And as I said each of the Courts are divided on what should be done now that you're safe ("safe"). Spring Court believes in enjoying their second chance at life to the fullest and filling the world with things of beauty. Summer believes in being ready to fight the agents of the Fae wherever they may be. Autumn in researching and developing the mysteries and magics of the Gentry. Winter in the conduction of espionage against enemies of the freeholds and ferreting out Loyalists and Privateers.

You'll notice that all these are proactive to a degree and while it's true that Changelings are by and large going to be more adverse to doing things that draw direct attention to themselves, there's enemies on the other side as well and their own new needs (cultivating emotion, giving outlets to their Fae sides) means that just curling up in the corner and hoping it all goes away isn't really an option.

And the whole time you're wrestling with the knock on effects of being an abuse victim. That paranoia. That mistrust. The learned, self-destructive behaviors. The fact that abused can become abusers in turn and how much sympathy and empathy can you weigh against the need for order and discipline. And beyond that the fact that you're overlooked, unseen, that you can't go back to the life you had because you've been replaced.

Changeling: The Lost is basically "Freedom is what you do with what's been done to you" The Game. Changeling: The Dreaming makes basic calculus into a potent anti-Fae weapon because nuuuuu my childlike wonder.

I mean talking up Banality as being some apocalyptic force is pretty lel considering that it's just shit like, to pull from the wiki, "doubt, rationality, cynicism, disillusionment, realism and a general unwillingness to embrace the fantastic".

So basically the MC's of C:tD are under dire threat from the scientific method which is about the point that I go "well fuck 'em anyway".
 
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You could try actually you know, supporting your point rather than "lol no you're wrong."

I was actually busy eating dinner and then checking up on my Quests and also reading threads and the like, apologies that I didn't drop everything to write a several hundred word argument for the whims of a random internet forum from someone defending C:TD of all things.

So, let us examine the claim.

"In the Lost, you're basically abused children who escaped their tormentors and are desperately afraid of going back. It's a stronger personal horror, but it's not a compelling reason to actually do anything, other than stay as far away from the supernatural as possible."

The main meat of this claim rests on the idea that there is no compelling reason to do anything at all except stay away from the supernatural. This fails on several different levels.

First, the existence of organizations which actually protect and promote Changeling interests. Put simply, running away and staying far away from the supernatural is likely to feel--and in fact be--a very good way to be completely vulnerable, isolated, and helpless should something go after you, which there is a good chance to do so.

Second, the existence of the Fetch provides an immediate and obvious reason to wish to band together with others, or B) Go it alone, in which case there you have a game going where you try to find a way to murder someone on your own using magic powers while they have an 'Echo' of them and use all of their resources to survive your onslaught, which would mean, congrats, you actually have compelling story, and I'd play the shit out of a cat-and-mouse, one-on-one Fetch v. Changeling social-and-later-physical contest.

But more seriously, in the interest of self-defense at the very least, and likely more reasons than that, Changelings congregate in groups. The Motley is often used because of course it's the PC Party thing, but even getting together with a Mentor or two can help to learn what to avoid and what to get involved in, how to be ready if the Keeper comes after them, or the Loyalists who would *love* to find an isolated Changeling and just drag them back.

So, now you have social groups. And social groups mean bonds, Pledges, obligations. Ties. Friendships. Politics and Policies and Philosophy and art and everything else.

And that opens up a huge vista of potential plot-hooks. Are you an artist? You can, in fact, make magical art. You are part of a group, and as such you will have things that are expected of you and things that aren't. Friends that can get in trouble and get you in trouble and help you out of trouble, and I'm not actually going to sit here and explain the Seasonal Courts for you or anyone else like we're running a lesson rather than me responding to this.

But needless to say, the very *existence* of social groups means the existence of conflict, and the existence of conflict necessary drives and defines plots.

But what about the magic? Even if you join a Freehold, why not just never use Glamour and hide in an attic and eat rats all day?

Well, first, in what way is it assumed that even a fraction of a percent of *anyone* could or would accept that. Most people want to live their lives, and most people have ambitions and hopes and dreams, and so reclaiming their lives is central to their being, and magic has been made central by their time in Arcadia. They literally are glamour, and feel drained and sorta 'blah' when they don't have any in their system.

And, for many people, magic seems cool and useful. Pledges can get them money, can get them power, and Tokens can allow them to fulfill their mortal wishes and desires, in addition to of course the desire for self-defense.

And more than that, magic is wonderous. For all of the talk of banality or whatnot, there's no reason why individual Changelings *wouldn't* be fascinated by magic. Look at all of the people on the internet saying, "If I had superpowers, I would--"

Put simply, the supernatural is a lure all its own, and the Hedge, for instance, holds much of power and value, and for those who are curious, eager, or hungry, there rests a way to get involved.

So, being engaged in the act of reclaiming your life, being a member of a Freehold or at least a smaller social group, fulfilling and pursuing mortal ambitions and also related ambitions (who is to say that the businessman who learns about the Goblin Market *wouldn't* be interested if what they really love in life is business?), the very fact that magic itself serves as its own lure, the complicated skein of loyalties that form between Courts, Motleys, and individuals, the existence of *outside* threats to make all of the previous options seem a lot more tempting, there is actually plenty to hook someone.

Which also comes down to character types. Yes, if you want to make a character concept that involves hiding in an attic and not doing anything, you're welcome to do so or at least imagine that they exist somewhere in the world, but there are enough inducements to get involved that it is absurd to say they lack motivations.

Finally--

Oh, look, I've been Darkling'd. Let's see what the other person says.


@hyzmarca is correct in the most technical way and contrary to popular belief being technically correct is not the best kind of correct. Rather its the most pedantic, unhelpful kind and their motives in polishing C:tD to a spit-shine with their tongue are about as transparent as a square of saran wrap.

So...yeah they're right (sorta) about the PC's basically being an abuse victim. They're wrong (definitely) about the PC's having no real motivation to do anything but cool their heels and try to duck the supernatural. A fair number of pages within the core book are given over to the major factions within the Changeling freeholds that are largely characterized on what the proper role of Changelings in the Fallen World is. And what Court you belong to (Spring, Summer, Autumn, Winter, et. al.) has a fairly big impact on your character since a. Changeling society is all about wheeling and dealing and intrigue. And b. it helps codify what particular flavor of emotion a character feeds off of. What emotions they try to incite in others. Wrath for Summer for instance. Or Sorrow for Winter.

And as I said each of the Courts are divided on what should be done now that you're safe ("safe"). Spring Court believes in enjoying their second chance at life to the fullest and filling the world with things of beauty. Summer believes in being ready to fight the agents of the Fae wherever they may be. Autumn in researching and developing the mysteries and magics of the Gentry. Winter in the conduction of espionage against enemies of the freeholds and ferreting out Loyalists and Privateers.

You'll notice that all these are proactive to a degree and while it's true that Changelings are by and large going to be more adverse to doing things that draw direct attention to themselves, there's enemies on the other side as well and their own new needs (cultivating emotion, giving outlets to their Fae sides) means that just curling up in the corner and hoping it all goes away isn't really an option.

And the whole time you're wrestling with the knock on effects of being an abuse victim. That paranoia. That mistrust. The learned, self-destructive behaviors. The fact that abused can become abusers in turn and how much sympathy and empathy can you weigh against the need for order and discipline. And beyond that the fact that you're overlooked, unseen, that you can't go back to the life you had because you've been replaced.

Changeling: The Lost is basically "Freedom is what you do with what's been done to you" The Game. Changeling: The Dreaming makes basic calculus into a potent anti-Fae weapon because nuuuuu my childlike wonder.

Talking up Banality as being some apocalyptic force is pretty lel considering that it's just shit like, to pull from the wiki, "doubt, rationality, cynicism, disillusionment, realism and a general unwillingness to embrace the fantastic".

So basically the MC's of C:tD are under dire threat from the scientific method which is about the point that I go "well fuck 'em anyway".

I mostly agree with all of this! Still, I spent time writing my little spiel and talking about ambition and coping and the like (though I tried to avoid talking too much about the four Courts), and so I'm going to post it anyways.

*****
There, @notthepenguins , am I now not some horrible person going 'lol, you're wrong' for taking a little while to write out a long essay of my reasoning when I was trying to settle in, eat dinner, and get someone to give me a vote tally for one of my Quests. Which they've done, so I will now begin to write.
 
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I was actually busy eating dinner and then checking up on my Quests and also reading threads and the like, apologies that I didn't drop everything to write a several hundred word argument for the whims of a random internet forum from someone defending C:TD of all things.

...


There, @notthepenguins , am I now not some horrible person going 'lol, you're wrong' for taking a little while to write out a long essay of my reasoning when I was trying to settle in, eat dinner, and get someone to give me a vote tally for one of my Quests. Which they've done, so I will now begin to write.
Chill, dude. If you don't have time to respond to someone, maybe just don't, rather than mocking them and then talking about how they're just wrong without explanation to other people in the thread. I don't think it's an exactly novel idea that "your ideas are bad and you should feel bad" responses are, well, bad, particularly when you yourself asked the question you're mocking the answer to.

As far as the rest, you're right that there are a lot of individual character hooks in C:tL, but it does lack an overarching plot direction, a Default Game Assumption, which it sounds like C:tD had. It sounds like that latter that @hyzmarca was addressing, not the former.
 
Someone posted a video that reminded me of Davy Jones from Pirates of the Caribbean. Was thinking about doing a snippet where there's a Fae that acts like him, acquiring slaves from shipwrecks, until I realized that he wouldn't be an expy so much as exactly the same. He already kidnaps and changes people into inhuman creatures, he already has arbitrary restrictions on his actions (only on land every 10 years), he makes deals with mystical consequences, and he's fantastically powerful. He's already a True Fae in all but name.
 
Someone posted a video that reminded me of Davy Jones from Pirates of the Caribbean. Was thinking about doing a snippet where there's a Fae that acts like him, acquiring slaves from shipwrecks, until I realized that he wouldn't be an expy so much as exactly the same. He already kidnaps and changes people into inhuman creatures, he already has arbitrary restrictions on his actions (only on land every 10 years), he makes deals with mystical consequences, and he's fantastically powerful. He's already a True Fae in all but name.

He also even has a 'place' to be.

The Ocean that I mention/is thus canon across all of my works in 'The Lost Files.'
 
You're claiming that Changeling: The Dreaming has a better/more interesting plot than Changeling: The Lost? :wtf:
No those two were exceptional in that they were equally lame.
It's a game about Spies. If spies had magic powers that let them casually warp reality ("I throw this burger wrapper on the ground, the president is assassinated before he can sign bill X.").

In Demon, you were once an Angle, one of the servants of the God Machine. You were sent to earth to do something. Then, for some reason, you rebelled and / or questioned your purpose. The God Machine cut it's connection with you, and now you're on the run, trying to bring it's plans to a grinding halt while simultaneously dodging its active servants. Think Cold War Spy Games with a dose of Reality Terrorists. So... oWoD Mage if everyone with magic was a deserter from the Technocracy :p
So it has nothing to actually do with actual Demons and Angels? That's pretty disappointing.
 
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So it has nothing to actually do with actual Demons and Angels? That's pretty disappointing.
Nope, because they already did demons multiple times (more traditional demons anyway). Also angelic beings iirc. However, making Biblical Angles real would lock them back into the old Christian cosmology that, quite frankly, I don't want anywhere near any of my nWoD.

I didn't like it in oWoD. And I sure as shit don't want it in my nWoD.

What are "actual" demons and angels?
I'm assuming he means Biblical Angles and Demons. Aka: Demon: The Fallen.
 
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Why?

I play role-playing games so my group can tell our own stories, not to be bit-parts in someone else's story.
The problem with that is that it creates an artificial barrier to entry: Players are not going to be invested in a game with no plot and new GMs or Storytellers or what have you are likely to not have the experience needed to world-build their own chronicle and be intimidated by the prospect. This is especially problematic for Storyteller games since without the prior experience needed to gauge what characters should be able to do with a given experience set it's hard to balance antagonists for them. In most cases the only reliable way to find a storyteller is to get one who played WoD and they're going to suggest using WoD with CoD mechanics in most situations, you're essentially pegging your product on a brand loyalty that doesn't exist and for a game that's really only spread by word of mouth that's not a good thing; it becomes a feedback loop whereby you can't play the game because you can't find a storyteller to run the game and you can't find a storyteller to run the game because everyone who wants to learn to do so can't find a storyteller to learn from. Compare this to games like D&D which often provide players with a base setting (generally Greyhawk or Faerun) and a system which categorizes antagonists and obstacles tailored for easy understanding of the appropriate difficulty, even new players can pick up the 5e core books in a pique of interest and run it with minor difficulties. That's not saying that the games themselves are bad, mechanically Call of DutyChronicles of Darkness is miles ahead of Warlords of DraenorWorld of Darkness even more still if you do have the experience to confidently world-build, just recognizing the fault for why they failed is a pretty glaring one.
Nope, because they already did demons multiple times (more traditional demons anyway). Also angelic beings iirc. However, making Biblical Angles real would lock them back into the old Christian cosmology that, quite frankly, I don't want anywhere near any of my nWoD.

I didn't like it in oWoD. And I sure as shit don't want it in my nWoD.
Kinda... I'm not sure why they'd have to be identical to Biblical Angels and Demons just at least somewhat derivative of it in the same way the Lancaea et Sanctum and Malleus Maleficarum us holy power in the form of Theban Sorcery and Benedictions or the Lucifuge and Belial's brood have thematically demonic powers. I mean there's a number of different ways you could do it what with the Mesopotamian Shedu, the Ancient Greek and Roman concepts of daemons and genii, the Jinn of early Arabic religious, or Japanese Yokai, there's a lot of variations on the same theme I'd just like if they're going to call them Demons and Angels they're at least recognizable as having come from that theme rather than rogue computer AI subroutines.
 
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God Machine = God
Sevitors = Angels
Rogue Sevitors = Demons

You're also asking Onyx Path to make something not just outside their wheelhouse, but then to do it competently. And then for Demons to have brand recognition.

Onyx Path, the guys who fucked up Beast, which should have been completely unfuckupable. Onyx Path, who called back in the fucking guy who thinks that if he describes spells to well, that you'll accidently start throwing fireballs around the gaming table. Onyx Path, the legacy descents of White Wolf who published books with hilariously racist content, stuff so fucked up that they literally couldn't be bothered to look at a map to figure out where stuff in none US countries was, and who has been known to publish stuff about getting hot and heavy with wild animals.

By the way, Inferno is the core blue book about demons.
 
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Nah, it's the 90° ones you have to watch out for.

They're much more judgmental due to all that self-rightness.
 
Beware the terrible 60° that will pursue you, heedless of the collateral destruction it causes so long as it can geometrically bisect you.
But they're so cute.

Nah, it's the 90° ones you have to watch out for.

They're much more judgmental due to all that self-rightness.
Nah, you've just been tricked by the dastardly pi/2c​ angles. They look indistinguishable from their more righteous counterparts, but they hide hearts of pure evil.
 
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