It got canceled because one of the main actors died.
Last edited:
White Wolf's World of Darkness
ganonso
Compulsive Quest Starter
- Location
- PACA France
I don't know the relative popularity of OWOD and NWOD in the States, but here in France, most people I know know Vampire the Masquerade at least from reputation.
Nearly nobody in my gaming assoc even knew that New World of Darkness existed. Fewer still knew there was something other than the Blue Book and Vampire.
So I totally buy that Owod is more sellable to investors.
Nearly nobody in my gaming assoc even knew that New World of Darkness existed. Fewer still knew there was something other than the Blue Book and Vampire.
So I totally buy that Owod is more sellable to investors.
It was canceled by Fox, then the main actor died. They had been in talks with Showtime to pick it up.
I'm saying that people are still buying more oWoD than nWoD, in 2016, when given the choice between the two.
Last edited:
Still... not a refutation in any way. Nostalgia is a big deal in RPGs. When both markets are running to a large extent off nostalgia, shockingly the one with more people who are nostalgic about it is doing better. And RPG systems are a sticky good - because there's a large initial investment into mastering a system people are reluctant to change (and RPGs don't deprecate well, either, which is a market problem for the sellers - I'm not "upgrading" to nWoD 2e because I consider it to be mechanically inferior to my houseruled 1e and I can just write more material for any game I run).
Especially when, I note, the people who are nostalgic for oWoD because it was their first RPG have had longer to forget the bad things [1]. And are that "plenty of disposable cash to spend on a Kickstarter" demographic of people heading into early middle age, while the "it was my first RPG" group for nWoD are ten years younger than them and have rather less spare cash.
[1] Of which there are a great deal more. Even oWoD fans typically concede that the nWoD system is much more solid - just look at all the "just run Ascension using Awakening's system" advice.
Last edited:
AshenFox
Copy Control, we are a go.
- Location
- Sector 13
A major selling point of oWoD is also nostalgia. It's something similar to what happened with Star Wars. Originals hit a cultural Zeitgeist and everyone loves them, sequels come out and they're just so radically different that original fans hate them, time moves on and then nostalgia triggers when the Beloved Child gets picked up again.
Nostalgia is a POWERFUL thing, especially in gaming circles, and especially now of all times when lots of nostalgia properties in video games are getting second lives, and at the same time a lot of just plain awful stuff is getting swarmed onto the market because the cost of entry keeps getting lower and lower.
People don't know who or what to trust, so they trust Known Brands and Quantities, because people just want to feel 'safe' in their purchasing. They want to know that if you spend $60 on a gaming book, that it isn't going to be 100+ pages of useless.
Nostalgia is a POWERFUL thing, especially in gaming circles, and especially now of all times when lots of nostalgia properties in video games are getting second lives, and at the same time a lot of just plain awful stuff is getting swarmed onto the market because the cost of entry keeps getting lower and lower.
People don't know who or what to trust, so they trust Known Brands and Quantities, because people just want to feel 'safe' in their purchasing. They want to know that if you spend $60 on a gaming book, that it isn't going to be 100+ pages of useless.
ganonso
Compulsive Quest Starter
- Location
- PACA France
There's also the fact that NWOD is generally harder to get than OWOD
OWOD gives you a comprehensive setting (as long you restrict yourself to a single gameline), epic villains, plot hooks ranging from the local to the epic.
NWOD is a toolbox, a great toolbox but one that can frighten beginning GM, most of the 1e corebook are well kinda of bad. It is only a personal opinion but I was hooked to Ovampire by the intro fiction "A gathering of Beasts"; Compared to that, the 1e Requiem corebook seemed so bland and uninspiring. At least for me, Vampire became interesting with Requiem for Rome, Mage with the Orders Books and Werewolf 1e not at all.
This is unfair, I know. NWOD has the best system no questions asked. 2e books are way better at hooking the audience and designing your own universe is fun. But OWOD is a more traditional RPG and thus more popular.
OWOD gives you a comprehensive setting (as long you restrict yourself to a single gameline), epic villains, plot hooks ranging from the local to the epic.
NWOD is a toolbox, a great toolbox but one that can frighten beginning GM, most of the 1e corebook are well kinda of bad. It is only a personal opinion but I was hooked to Ovampire by the intro fiction "A gathering of Beasts"; Compared to that, the 1e Requiem corebook seemed so bland and uninspiring. At least for me, Vampire became interesting with Requiem for Rome, Mage with the Orders Books and Werewolf 1e not at all.
This is unfair, I know. NWOD has the best system no questions asked. 2e books are way better at hooking the audience and designing your own universe is fun. But OWOD is a more traditional RPG and thus more popular.
Actually I don't know if I can go back. It's been fun to be reminded of my gaming experiences from the late 90s and early 00s with the anniversary editions, but there's times it really does feel like living in the past. I'm only considering Vampire: Dark Ages cause it takes place in the Middle Ages rather than when I was a tween and teenager.
The thing about NWoD was I did like some of the systems a lot better, but fluff wise it either felt really generic or repetitive. Like Vampire the Requiem was cool, but it came off so similar to VtM I felt like why bother playing this game when we had all these supplements and lore to draw on from the other. Going with that line of thought though, I can understand why people first coming along White Wolf's products in the mid 00s would find the new games more appealing because they didn't have multiple editions and like nearly a decade and half worth of supplements to hunt for. So fans of the OWoD do need to calm the fuck down about judging the NWoD games and their fans.
The thing about NWoD was I did like some of the systems a lot better, but fluff wise it either felt really generic or repetitive. Like Vampire the Requiem was cool, but it came off so similar to VtM I felt like why bother playing this game when we had all these supplements and lore to draw on from the other. Going with that line of thought though, I can understand why people first coming along White Wolf's products in the mid 00s would find the new games more appealing because they didn't have multiple editions and like nearly a decade and half worth of supplements to hunt for. So fans of the OWoD do need to calm the fuck down about judging the NWoD games and their fans.
Last edited:
Yeah, I always felt that a game with NWoD crunch and CWoD fluff would work much better.
Best of both worlds, for a given definition of "best".
Best of both worlds, for a given definition of "best".
Yeah we were thinking of doing this, but given the disappointments toward how the OWoD lines were heading anyways and Exalted capturing our attention, we didn't feel like bothering at the time. Though for Vampire: Dark Ages I'm trying to figure out a system that combines both generation and blood potency. My line of thought is generation is more starting power and social standing, while age will eventually trump it.
Last edited:
ganonso
Compulsive Quest Starter
- Location
- PACA France
The way I did this was to transform Generation as a social Merit that indicates your known lineage. Rule that Vampires that embrace at higher Blood Potency create stronger childer and change a bit how Blood Potency decrease to enable the existence of the Antedilluvians.
TenfoldShields
Lounging on a Hoard of Words
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Tbh if your yazoo is leaking strange fluids of an uncertain hue you should probably get it checked out.
Part of it might be that I got into oWoD stuff via Panopticon so my view's a little skewed (and I'll cop to that fuck yeah Forward the Union) but I don't think oWoD's metaplot is anything to put on a pedestal. Something to write home about yeah but definitely not something that should be held up as a pinnacle of good storytelling. Interesting in that "poke it with a long stick" kind of way but like...it's 90's distilled and suffers from the same issue that a lot of comic book stuff does. Where there's so much weirdness and reworkings and odd shit that you need a three-credit course to properly study and make sense of it. What with splat piled on splat, plot on plot, and God himself cannot help you if you plan to do a crossover.
...Really though, some stuff is neat. Threat Null's pretty boss for example. But on the other hand you have shit like at least three-four separate apocalypses hanging over the Earth and apparently they all happened at once in some fashion or another and it's just...ugh.
And yeah I sorta lack the nostalgia value and again this is personal taste but the emphasis on 90's stuff (natural given where it came from) dates it really badly for me. The whole sentiment of "Fuck da Man and the Corporations trying to keep you down with shitty burgers and cable TV real power is OUTSIDE the system" doesn't really ring as true anymore y'know?
I mean don't get me wrong. Union vs Trads is one of my favorite conflicts in any RP thing ever, just conceptually, but as a whole I like nWoD a lot better. If only because it's a lot easier to mix and match what you want without having to burn off all the odd shit first.
Werewolf the Forsaken doesn't incentivize bestiality for instance, which is pretty great. Like, just as a general rule but here especially considering it's predecessor.
Last edited:
ganonso
Compulsive Quest Starter
- Location
- PACA France
Reading these internet discussions, it seems I am the only GM whose Apocalypse' players saw Lupus Characters as "SQUEE. I'm playing Mowgli or Rahan!" rather than "Yeah I get to fuck a wolf"
Idem for homid characters, the subject never came up.
Were there so many people wolfing wolves in the general fandom?
Idem for homid characters, the subject never came up.
Were there so many people wolfing wolves in the general fandom?
- Location
- Canada
I'm only familiar with oWoD by reputation, and nWoD via quests on the forum. Would suggest it to my IRL friends, but our schedules are different enough that we can't consistently meet. Makes it rather difficult to do anything if half your group will be missing any given week.
I found Changeling: The Lost interesting after hearing about if from somewhere, and found about the rest of nWoD from there. It's still the most interesting line for me.
I found Changeling: The Lost interesting after hearing about if from somewhere, and found about the rest of nWoD from there. It's still the most interesting line for me.
- Pronouns
- They/Them
I don't agree. Changeling the Lost is boring. I do not understand how anyone would make any Quests or run any games about it.
Tbh if your yazoo is leaking strange fluids of an uncertain hue you should probably get it checked out.
Part of it might be that I got into oWoD stuff via Panopticon so my view's a little skewed (and I'll cop to that fuck yeah Forward the Union) but I don't think oWoD's metaplot is anything to put on a pedestal. Something to write home about yeah but definitely not something that should be held up as a pinnacle of good storytelling. Interesting in that "poke it with a long stick" kind of way but like...it's 90's distilled and suffers from the same issue that a lot of comic book stuff does. Where there's so much weirdness and reworkings and odd shit that you need a three-credit course to properly study and make sense of it. What with splat piled on splat, plot on plot, and God himself cannot help you if you plan to do a crossover.
...Really though, some stuff is neat. Threat Null's pretty boss for example. But on the other hand you have shit like at least three-four separate apocalypses hanging over the Earth and apparently they all happened at once in some fashion or another and it's just...ugh.
And yeah I sorta lack the nostalgia value and again this is personal taste but the emphasis on 90's stuff (natural given where it came from) dates it really badly for me. The whole sentiment of "Fuck da Man and the Corporations trying to keep you down with shitty burgers and cable TV real power is OUTSIDE the system" doesn't really ring as true anymore y'know?
I mean don't get me wrong. Union vs Trads is one of my favorite conflicts in any RP thing ever, just conceptually, but as a whole I like nWoD a lot better. If only because it's a lot easier to mix and match what you want without having to burn off all the odd shit first.
Werewolf the Forsaken doesn't incentivize bestiality for instance, which is pretty great. Like, just as a general rule but here especially considering it's predecessor.
Don't get me wrong, the metaplot was a mess. But it was a mess that sold a fuckton of books in the day.
Yeah cause authoritarianism, corporate corruption, and environmentalism are exclusively 90s concerns.
Last edited:
Vindictus
XENO
- Location
- Texas
Honestly, I only played a couple oVampire games with my uncle [uh, former uncle now, there should really be a word for uncle-who-later-divorced-aunt] as the GM myself, and that was a few years ago now, but I'd recommend it as being probably the best of the lot.
oMage is pretty good too though, and oChangeling had some interesting stuff when I read the rulebooks.
I should probably try to pick up a copy of the oVamp rulebook at some point, actually.
TenfoldShields
Lounging on a Hoard of Words
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yeah but not my day is what I'm saying. And from the outside it's about as accessible as a copy of collected Faulkner that doesn't believe in sex before marriage.
Yeah cause authoritarianism, corporate corruption, environmentalism are exclusively 90s concerns.
See, I know you're being super disingenuous but here's the thing: those issues and the way they're approached in oWoD have a pretty distinct 90's sensibility to them.
Or to clarify: a pre-9/11 War On Terror sensibility to them.
As much as it's slapped on the table as an argument-ender to make Godwin proud, shit really did change post-9/11. Mysterious freedom fighters started to look a lot less charming. Overthrowing the corrupt old order of the West looked a lot less appealing. And then past that, beyond that, things like PRISM and the NSA. Authoritarianism wasn't Big Brother on a screen telling you to stand up straight and stay in line, it was the government reading your emails and ordering drone strikes half a world away. The growing sense that so much of the system was out of your control. And sure yeah you had shit like "too big to fail" and the economic crash but even that wasn't a quick, decisive fall so much as a long, steep, decline and didn't prompt much of a "we're angry and we're NOT GOING TO TAKE IT ANYMORE" moment.
Occupy kinda fizzled out in the public eye remember? Snowden's stuff did too. The Iraq war burned slow and burned long and doesn't seem to have solved any problems unless the problem was "insufficient numbers of insurgents". There wasn't a decisive, dramatic end to any of this but there was a sort of "conclusion" for the population. Committees were held, editorials were written, and the world turned on.
I guess at the core the main thing is this idea. The idea that corrupt authority, that the thing holding you down, that The Man, is something you can stand up and punch in the face seems quaint in a lot of ways y'know? This idea that you just have to spread THE TRUTH and you'll be able to change things even if it's a suicidal, blaze of glory type deal seems badly dated. Criticisms of consumerist culture are more in the hipster-y "let me tell you about this free-range chicken" wheelhouse. Environmentalism is still a concern but there's been progress made, slow and grinding and methodical and balanced out by the sense that we're all fucked anyway. Corporate corruption is very thats-just-the-way-things-are, assholes are going to asshole.
Matching that is the general consensus that the bad guys are more ambiguous, more amorphous, now and I think that's largely a product of the rise of terrorism, the prevalence of shit like school shootings, and the penetration of slow-burning, decidedly unsexy problems. People just got used to it. And once you get used to it it's hard to get super up in arms about it.
And getting super up in arms about shit is sort of oWoD's bread and butter.
Last edited:
What makes the OWoD really 90s had more to do with the tone and how the games drew a lot from how the supernatural and mysticism was viewed in that period; VtM started out as basically an Anne Rice RPG. Also it really tapped into that X-Files esque conspiracy stuff that was also rampant during 90s too. On top of this it really soaked the 90s alt/Goth rock scene into their work, especially in older stuff.
Now a days vampires, werewolves, wizards, ghosts, and faeries have been taken over by YA and Supernatural Romance crowd. It's a completely different tone when you bring up supernatural creatures living in the shadows of the modern world. It has nothing to do with "fuck da man". Trying to fit everything into the left/right spectrum is a product of now.
The 00s and 10s are a hell of a lot more politically active than the cynicism fest of the 90s. It sounds more like how you personally feel about issues than the tone of the times.
Now a days vampires, werewolves, wizards, ghosts, and faeries have been taken over by YA and Supernatural Romance crowd. It's a completely different tone when you bring up supernatural creatures living in the shadows of the modern world. It has nothing to do with "fuck da man". Trying to fit everything into the left/right spectrum is a product of now.
The 00s and 10s are a hell of a lot more politically active than the cynicism fest of the 90s. It sounds more like how you personally feel about issues than the tone of the times.
Last edited:
- Pronouns
- They/Them
WTF...
Actual 100% accurate summary of oWerewolf using cows:
Werewolf the Apocalypse: You have two cows. They become corrupted by a mad primordial spirit and you are forced to put them down for the greater good. But is it enough?
TenfoldShields
Lounging on a Hoard of Words
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Sir.
Sir please.
Sir come back with those goalposts. They're the only pair we have.
Sir we were talking about oWoD's main guiding themes. You might be right but that's still a separate issue from "the monsters are all hunky and fuckable now". I-
Sir please put down that political insinuation, you're just going to make yourself look silly.
The worst part is that this would only be the, like, 4th or 5th worst thing the oWolves have ever done. Canonically. And like, distantly too.
Last edited:
- Location
- Italy
Like much of the generation that didn't get to play the oWoD in the 90's I was introduced to White Wolf through Bloodlines. From there I discovered Masquerade, just in time for the 20th anniversary, and from there I got to Apocalypse and Ascension, and eventually even other WW properties like Exalted and Aberrant.
Of the Big three, the only game I found interesting whatsover was VtM. Apocalypse's premise and splats were extremely un-appealing, to use a kind word, and Ascension's base premise in the consensual reality was among the dumbest things I'd ever read in a RPG book, coupled again with kind of boring protagonist and antagonists.[1]
When I discovered the nWoD my initial experience with it was almost the opposite: Requiem felt like it had better mechanics, but it didn't feel different enough outside of them to really grab me at first. Forsaken and Awakening however grabbed me from Day 1.[2]
I don't mind that those that care about the Classic World of Darkness get to have some new stuff to play with: if they like what the new WW will make, more power to them, and if we can get maybe another decent Vampire videogame out of it, even better.
[1] I've kind of moved away from my extreme dislike of Ascension, mostly thanks to PQ. While I still think that it's basic premise is yawn-inducing at best, I've found myself stealing bits from it to build my ideal Awakening.
[2] As far as the other gamelines are concerned, I've never even bothered with stuff like Dreaming or Orpheus for the oWoD, and in the new only bothered with Promethean and Changelings. Neither of them says much to me, although I do use some of their materials as inspiration for other games.
Of the Big three, the only game I found interesting whatsover was VtM. Apocalypse's premise and splats were extremely un-appealing, to use a kind word, and Ascension's base premise in the consensual reality was among the dumbest things I'd ever read in a RPG book, coupled again with kind of boring protagonist and antagonists.[1]
When I discovered the nWoD my initial experience with it was almost the opposite: Requiem felt like it had better mechanics, but it didn't feel different enough outside of them to really grab me at first. Forsaken and Awakening however grabbed me from Day 1.[2]
I don't mind that those that care about the Classic World of Darkness get to have some new stuff to play with: if they like what the new WW will make, more power to them, and if we can get maybe another decent Vampire videogame out of it, even better.
[1] I've kind of moved away from my extreme dislike of Ascension, mostly thanks to PQ. While I still think that it's basic premise is yawn-inducing at best, I've found myself stealing bits from it to build my ideal Awakening.
[2] As far as the other gamelines are concerned, I've never even bothered with stuff like Dreaming or Orpheus for the oWoD, and in the new only bothered with Promethean and Changelings. Neither of them says much to me, although I do use some of their materials as inspiration for other games.
WTF...
Just imagine it. You start out by telling the players that you'll be running an adventure set in the early 00s, so a lot of things that they take for granted won't be available. Then you slowly reveal the truth layer by layer and watch their horror as they begin to comprehend what the adventure is really about.