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White Wolf's World of Darkness

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And that is, in retrospect, where I am stopping this argument. I just realized I specifically woke up to rebut the rebuttal, and I know my temper. If I continue on with this tangent I am going to say something I am going to regret.

My closing statement is this: I like Mummy: the Curse. I agree it kind of doesn't fit in with the rest of the nWoD and is a little too experimental for its own good. But I love the pulpy fun and themes of reclaiming your identity.

And yet, I despised the rules when it came out. Not because I hated the idea, or because they weren't mechanically viable. No, I actually liked the powers and the ideas behind them, and how they enforced the ludonarrative of returned god-king...and yet, there were always one or two things that always unsettled me.

Recently, I read a comment that M:tC is in many ways, the perfection of the 1E system, a splat that perfectly interfaces with the rules to create something new and unique. And that's when it hit me;

I was breaking up with the old system. The reason I hated Mummy's rules was that they played with the 1E system directly, which forced me to examine how they actually worked individually instead of as a whole. And from my perspective, they didn't. It's like discovering your beloved father is a habitual drunk and druggie, and a mean one at that. He's awesome in so many other ways, and yet that one little thing just dominates the rest of him and brings it down into the depths of mediocrity and boredom, ODing on a combination of poor moral systems, lack of guidelines for dice modifiers, and fear of expansive game settings.

To make a long and very wordy story short, to me GMC is a lot like the old system realizing what the problem was and shipping itself off to rehab. When it comes back, it's a fundamentally different creature in some ways, but I remember how miserable it always seemed when trying to somehow moderate its Morality intake while enjoying the buzz, or how it always claimed that relentless darkness without a hint of self-parody or wry acknowledgement was an addiction, but wasn't a problem that prevented it from doing its job, honest. So, even when I discovered it ended up with a newfound love of Cosmic Horror Brand cigarettes to help ignore the cravings for Misanthropy Heroin in the tank, I was, and am, entirely willing to take the bad along with the good, because it doesn't smoke if you ask it too and it restricts its habits in places where the smoke would get into the atmosphere and stink it up with ash of Ibn Ghazi. Overall, it's a much sweeter game system to be around, and it's happier too.

So, when I'm told how bad it is, I end up getting flashbacks to 1E going on a bender and wrecking all sense of player direction in a drunken angst-rage. To me, it says "Oh, you just didn't see nWoD while it was drinking, it was a really fun guy while it was hovering around the bar and all!" And you're right. I didn't. I just saw the aftereffects, and remembered all the times it rambled about how much its own mother system sucked, and how strict it was with its metaplot and cosmology, and oh god just get me a beer my head feels like it's a vampire in the sun oh jesus.

So yeah, I've seen a darker side to the system that the noble opposition hasn't. And that darker side, in 2E, is gone.
 
Kiriel said:
Before I forget... @EarthScorpion, do the Enlightened need to be transformed to use their charms? There's no outright statement saying either yes, no or depends, which confuses me, and you being someone who did work on this, you're probably the only person I can think of to answer.
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Yes, at least when I was involved in it. Basically, an unTransformed Noble is essentially a mortal with a few fringe benefits (like getting to resist supernatural effects with their Inner Light). They're less supernatural than a ghoul. Their auras show up as "mortal", their Transformed and normal selves count as different people for the purposes of sympathetic magic, and they have an identity protection field which makes it really, really hard to link the two as being the same person. It was a deliberate genre emulation thing to force the Enlightened to go find a place to transform.

(I think they might have been able to use Bequests when not Transformed)

There was a power (at some point) in the Embassy to the Arcane which let you use your Charms freely when not Transformed - at the small, small cost of massively damaging your identity protection and lack of sympathetic links, ie that basically merged your two identities so you were always magical.

Kiriel said:
Also, for everyone else, I need some advice on Mage Ascension. I gave my group a choice between Traditions and Technocrats, and they chose to be Technocrats. One of my players decided on being a Syndic, and asked what is the difference between Prime and Primal Utility, both mechanically and fluffwise. It's something that I can't give a proper answer since this will be my first time doing a Technocrat game so some help is appreciated.
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Primal Utility is covered in the Syndicate Conventionbook. It's... mostly the same, but there are some fairly complicated differences (basically, Primal Utility can treat money as quintessence and so there are things you can do like spend quint to regenerate your Resources and draw quintessence from businesses you're invested in, etc).
 
Leliel said:
In other words, white room combat.

This is understandable as it is completely wrongheaded. White room combat works for things like D&D, where combat is the focus of the game. In a horror game, the thing is meant to create a feeling of helplessness and viciousness.

Quite simply, all the writers have bluntly stated what they were going for is real-world violence. In real-world violence, the winner is usually the one who came prepared. Or more likely, cheated.
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I'm not entirely sure what this has to do with the parts you quoted; Revlid could have written extensively on how he creates advantages for himself by bashing the robber/murderer's head against a nearby gondola in order to create advantages in combat for himself, and it would change nothing about the mechanical issue his hypothetical presented.

Leliel said:
(Also, I remain very skeptical of Revlid's claim here. I see absolutely no opportunity for a "learning experience" at all here, so the second scenario is the more realistic one. In fact, I wonder exactly who is the crazier person here, Mr. French Ball-Thief or the guy who apparently believes that discovering you are fighting a serial killer instead of a mugger is a "learning experience." And the fact that "trying all your might" isn't a good in-game representation of spending Willpower kind of makes me think that Revlid's rant, as it was the first time I saw it, was not well thought out).
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"Learning experience" as in "you gain 0.2 XP from it". Also, where are you getting "trying all your might" from? It's not in the section I quoted, nor as far as I can tell, does anyone in Revlid's hypotheticals actually ever spend Willpower to get any bonuses in combat. They're losing Willpower with their attacks because it's mentally exhausting ( = spend Willpower) to fight in certain conditions.

What @Revlid is making light of is that:
  • If you're fighting someone whose Intent for the combat is to kill you, it doesn't cost Willpower to fight back when wounded
  • If you're fighting someone whose Intent for the combat isn't to kill you, it costs Willpower to fight back when wounded
  • If someone gives in to your demands, it costs Willpower to continue fighting them

Which leads to a really strange situation where, if someone ambushes you and gives you a big enough wound, whether it costs Willpower to fight back depends on what that someone wants to accomplish, despite you not knowing what the enemy wants. In Revlid's example, whether he finds his mental capacity to push himself (Willpower) draining depends entirely on something he can't know. This is not good design.

Leliel said:
First, we are arguing over something subjective about entertainment. Popularity is generally a metric in something's favor, because that's what it's meant to attain. I know it's a fallacy, but the thing is, sometimes fallacies are the only logical arguments.
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That's not what that webpage says; it merely says that you can't you a fallacy in an argument to infer the opposite is true. So I can't use "it's a fallacy to assume the majority are right" to say that "Blood Sorcery and Summoners are bad books", but then I never did. I merely asserted that the majority (or, rather, lots of people on RPG.net) liking something is not proof that it's not bad. It does not say that sometimes fallacies are logical arguments, which is an obvious contradiction and not at all supported by the linked article.

Leliel said:
You may have a point with Vampire (Curse of the Early Gameline, both nWoDs), but from what I can tell, that's it. "Awed" is not a Condition, because generally, being awed by someone doesn't effect the way you react and interact with the world. "Charmed" is, because if I remember right, that's either a sign of you thinking with your gonads or having been mind-whammied. And the bolded part is outright wrong, because what do you think the entire Condition chapter in Vampire was?
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The Discipline Majesty 1 causes the victim to be "Awed", while Majesty 2 causes the victim to be "Charmed", both representing supernatural influences on the victim's minds. However, Awed is not a Condition, while Charmed is. So Conditions doesn't always represent being affected by vampire magic, except when they do. This doesn't strike me as good design; it appears to be a completely arbitrary division between the kind of Vampire power that is represented with Conditions and the kind that isn't.

Leliel said:
Also, Demon seems to have picked up that the Condition cross-reference was a problem; the power-specific Conditions are generally in the same writeup or directly afterwards, so that problem's already been addressed.
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Blood & Smoke: the Strix Chronicles is my go-to example here; Mesmerize (p. 131) imposes the Mesmerized Condition (p. 305). The kind of command you can issue with Mesmerize is described on page 130, while the duration of Mesmerize is described on page 305. Notably, the Condition says that the victim has to follow your command, while the Discipline specifies what counts as a valid command - the Condition doesn't actually note the distinction, so you can't look at the Condition and learn that "command" is not the common English word meaning "order", but a specific game term for "an order that is 3-4 words long and not vague and also not 'follow all my orders'".
 
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Leliel said:
In other words, white room combat.

This is understandable as it is completely wrongheaded. White room combat works for things like D&D, where combat is the focus of the game. In a horror game, the thing is meant to create a feeling of helplessness and viciousness.

Quite simply, all the writers have bluntly stated what they were going for is real-world violence. In real-world violence, the winner is usually the one who came prepared. Or more likely, cheated. This...was not clear in the GMC, so that's a point in your favor. The Hurt Locker will go into this, and hopefully when the official 2E book comes out.

(Also, I remain very skeptical of Revlid's claim here. I see absolutely no opportunity for a "learning experience" at all here, so the second scenario is the more realistic one. In fact, I wonder exactly who is the crazier person here, Mr. French Ball-Thief or the guy who apparently believes that discovering you are fighting a serial killer instead of a mugger is a "learning experience." And the fact that "trying all your might" isn't a good in-game representation of spending Willpower kind of makes me think that Revlid's rant, as it was the first time I saw it, was not well thought out).
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I got linked to this thread because I was mentioned in it. I've not as much stake as you'd think in the argument itself, since I've come to terms with some of the initial problems I had with GMC. For those unfamiliar, I posted a big knee-jerk critique of GMC back when it was released, spanning several pages, to which Leliel responded with nothing but "so many words, so much wrong".

The paragraph @Eukie quoted has nothing to do with balance. "Balance" is never mentioned in it, and she specifically notes right before that it has nothing to do with balance. It's right there. In the bracketed statement, both situations describe - down to a diegetic button - the experience of characters fighting in GMC. In the first situation, the attacker wanted the victim's wallet and was prepared to kill him for it. In the second, he simply wanted to kill him. The victim had no way of knowing which situation he was in. Nevertheless, in the first situation he suffered Willpower drain when wounded, and his attacker suffered Willpower drain after he'd surrendered, and he gained a beat after tossing the attacker his wallet. In the second, none of these things occurred.

Leliel's claim that spending Willpower doesn't represent trying really hard is also wrong. It says right there in the nWorld of Darkness rulebook, page 133, a definition that GMC only backs up - "Sometimes just trying to accomplish a feat isn't enough for your character. It's do or die. He has to make a leap or catch a falling child or make his last bullet hit the mark. That's when he puts his all into it. You can have your character make this extraordinary effort by announcing that he "goes for broke" before the activity is performed. You then spend a Willpower point in a reflexive action to gain three dice on your roll."
 
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The gates of Stygia have finally opened again...

Wraith: the Oblivion has returned...



It was funded in 69 minutes. Between this and the first episode of TT's Game of Thrones game coming out today I am so freaking happy.

WtO for all its baggage is one of the best RPGs I've ever read* and Wr20 is something I've been waiting a long time for. Plus they brought back Rich Dansky, the man who made WtO really shine.

If you're a World of Darkness fan, Old or New, do yourself a favor and check out the Storytelling Game of Death and Damnation, of Passion and Horror.

*Sadly I've never had an opportunity to play it.

Kiriel said:
Also, for everyone else, I need some advice on Mage Ascension. I gave my group a choice between Traditions and Technocrats, and they chose to be Technocrats. One of my players decided on being a Syndic, and asked what is the difference between Prime and Primal Utility, both mechanically and fluffwise. It's something that I can't give a proper answer since this will be my first time doing a Technocrat game so some help is appreciated.

For that matter, any convenient rules hacks for Mage Ascension, like the ones from Panopticon Quest, would also be appreciated.
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Well when it boils right down to it, they are the same thing just merely seen and done through different lens. There are somethings Prime can do that Primal Utility can't and vice versa but largely its the same and the Convention Book does a great job of explaining it. For instance while Prime 2 can be used with Matter, Forces or Life to basically create something from nothing, Primal Utility 2 be used with Matter and Forces to create something but not in the same sense. Prime creates from the raw energy of the universe, Prime Utility creates basically by the Technocrat using economic manipulation and transactions to get the materials he needs. Does it mean that it takes longer than his Traditionalist rivals? Yes but because of how he's doing it the Procedure is entirely Coincidental.

In fact that's very much power for the course with Technocrats. A lot of their Procedures, especially at the lower levels, does the same things as Traditionalist Rotes but often take more time and/or work to achieve but are completely accepted by the Consensus.

So first off thoroughly read the Hypereconomics & Primal Utility section of the Syndicate CB. If you don't have it, get it cause it lays down pretty much everything you're asking about.

Otherwise it will be a lot for me to write down. If you narrow it down to specific things I can help
 
TheLastOne said:
I'm a bit worried about what they're going to do with Orpheus. I'm fond of both, but they twisted the setting and mechanics enough with Orpheus that trying to graft it back on is worrying.
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Honestly I'm not. Rich did a bit of work on Orpheus and is fond of the line as well. I trust him to be able to successfully bring the two lines together.

Also the next stretch goal, at $130,000, they will take the Orpheus sub-section in Wr20 and turn it into a full appendix, fully fleshing out Orpheus within the Wr20 setting. So yeah, it looks good for Orpheus fans too. Certainly this will be the closest we're gonna get to an x20 Ed for Orpheus.
 
TheLastOne said:
True, and its not like it somehow erases oOrpheus if they screw it up.
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Indeed. And out of all the Rev Ed era game lines Orpheus is the only one with its existence not dependent on the Sixth Great Maelstrom, which ended WtO before the other lines. Certainly it is important for Orpheus own internal metaplot but not their actual existence.

The 6GM cracked the Fallen's prison, allowing them to escape in numbers large enough to become a full splat in their own right. The huge number of ghosts that became trapped in the Skinlands caused what may be the last angels on Earth to start Imbuing people. And finally the 6GM woke up Osiris* and led to him creating new mummies to attempt to correct the damages. But the Orpheus Group came into being years before the 6GM so there's no reason why they wouldn't be in the default setting of the x20 line, which is where the big events of 1999 that kicked off the countdown to the Time of Judgement haven't yet happened.

*In fact it was Anubis, through an ancient debt owed to him by the Ferrymen, that orchestrated part of the events that caused the 6GM, presumably as part as some truly ancient long term plan.
 
Imrix said:
Revlid, you're an asshole. Have a cookie while I fall over laughing.
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Whereas I, on the other hand, very nearly deleted my account.

Look, I'm going to be honest here; that joke? Was not funny. At all. In retrospect, Revlid didn't mean it that way, but the thing about that kind of language? Occasionally you meet someone for whom it is all too real. For example, a college student with ADHD and a seeming inability to concentrate on studying for more than ten minutes at a time leading to consistent inability to get the highest grades he can. Or more importantly Asperger's, characterized by elements of a mild speech disorder.

I will give you three guesses as to why I get kind of touchy when my intelligence is brought to task.

So yeah, the "cannot read" comment? Kind of hit a sore spot.

Insult my tastes all you like, explain where I got things wrong. But do not insult my brain. It's kind of a bad memory.

EDIT: And before you ask; I was homeschooled, so I never really dealt with bullies during my formative years. I have, however, repeatedly embarrassed myself at social functions because I can't speak without a stutter or follow an involved conversation. And been mocked.

So yeah. Sore point.
 
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Okay, I just had read through the Princess: the Hopeful fan-splate and I seriously want to wring the idiot who decided that including random Japanese words everywhere was a good design policy. I mean seriously, it breaks my fucking immersion so much and it just is out of the theme and stride it was going for. Ugh!
 
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greensun said:
Okay, I just had read through the Princess: the Hopeful fan-splate and I seriously want to wring the idiot who decided that including random Japanese words everywhere was a good design policy. I mean seriously, it breaks my fucking immersion so much and it just is out of the theme and stride it was going for. Ugh!
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Now you know how people who speak Latin and Greek feel when they read actual World of Darkness products.
 
greensun said:
Okay, I just had read through the Princess: the Hopeful fan-splate and I seriously want to wring the idiot who decided that including random Japanese words everywhere was a good design policy. I mean seriously, it breaks my fucking immersion so much and it just is out of the theme and stride it was going for. Ugh!
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Which words in particular are causing you such trouble?
 
Sunder the Gold said:
Which words in particular are causing you such trouble?
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I know what the words mean, its just how they're just tossed into a sentence structure like it was a badly written fanfic that bugs me. There is just no real point to include them, especially since it nWoD isn't series based almost entirely on Japanese mythology like Legend of Five Rings. It just sticks out uncomfortably in the book as a whole.

On the other hand, a lot if it is rather nice, and I especially enjoyed the chapter on Alhambra, such dark and interesting place. ideas for games just flow from it.
 
So I am thinking of doing a World of Darkness/Worm Crossover Quest focusing on the Technocracy. Anyone want to talk with me about it and share ideas? :)
 
Interesting idea. I haven't read the new Void Engineers book yet, so that was not what I have in mind but I will take it into consideration. I was thinking more along the lines of Taylor being groomed to join an Awakening style Technocracy. With parahumans playing the roles of the other supernatural groups and keeping a similar setting to regular Worm.
 
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Cassiemouse said:
So I am thinking of doing a World of Darkness/Worm Crossover Quest focusing on the Technocracy. Anyone want to talk with me about it and share ideas? :)
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Highly incompatible at a thematic level when you drill down to the heart of it, also with wide-ranging metaphysical problems. It would require large scale-rewriting and complicated work at fusing to do it at a greater level than "The Void Engineers find this world". Thematically, Mage states that the only frontier which has ever existed is the self and that ultimate power lies within each person, only kept in check by everyone else - hence collective action and wide-scale organisation is the source of terrible power and that's what the Technocratic Union anchors its power in. Worm demonstrates that you only matter if you have superpowers which come from outside humanity, and human organisations are without fail corrupt, useless or hobbled.

(At a more prosaic level, Mage (both mages, old and new) laugh in the face of superhero genre conventions and with Life 1 you can infallibly know what the person looks like under the disguise, and then track them down with Space/Correspondence 2. So in a setting which relies on identity protection, mages giggle helplessly - especially if they're organised mages who'll tell other people who the masked vigilantes are.)

Would advise against it, especially if it's Mage-centric and doubly-so if it's Technocracy-centric. Vampire, it could work for much more easily. Werewolf, too. But Mage is the hardest at a thematic level without massive setting fusion and alteration, and the Technocracy is anathema to a bunch of Worm assumptions.
 
Cassiemouse said:
So I am thinking of doing a World of Darkness/Worm Crossover Quest focusing on the Technocracy. Anyone want to talk with me about it and share ideas? :)
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I am proud and knowledgeable Technocrat. I have every book on PDF about the Technocracy from the original Convention Books to Guide to the Technocracy to the Rev Ed Convention Books. I also have most of the books in the Sorcerer's Crusade line, a historical setting for MtAs that explores the early years of the Nine Traditions and the Order of Reason, which would become the modern Technocracy.

So yeah, I'm more than able to help out. You got questions? Ask them and I'll answer as soon as I'm able to.
 
Heya. So the current plan is to do an Awakening style Technocracy vs Seers of the Throne with parahumans being mortals empowered by alien gods from the deep spiritual realms. Still working out the details. Going for more a merged setting with my own spin on it rather than a straight cross over.
 
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