With the caveat that my understanding of WOD comes from Panopticon Quest...

The Traditions seem like very selfish groups to me. Does any one of them have, as part of their ideology and mission statement, any provision to help the masses? A feasible plan to do so? Is this plan better than the Technocracy's? They're groups that demand the right to practice their magic as they like, heedless of any impacts this may have on the world or people around them, and go ballistic at the thought of any restriction or oversight. They're mono-focused on themselves, so blind to their own privilege as a mage, they construct their own story of oppression and demand more privileges.

If the Technocracy is Kipling and the imperialistic white man's burden, then the Traditions are the white libertarian men, the ones who believe there's a war on Christmas or who take over federal buildings in Oregon.

I know that some of the Traditions seem like they're set up to be the indigenous peoples who get crushed beneath western 'enlightened' civilization, a la Dreamspeakers, but that's not the tone or feeling that takes place when people defend the Traditions. It feels hollow. Inevitably, I can't help but feel that the Technocracy, for all its warts and faults, is probably a nicer place to live for anyone that's not part of the overclass than one run by Traditions.

The Traditions don't like each other. They're forced by the Technocracy as external pressure to work together, but I don't see one Tradition mage not believing that the other Tradition mage is doing it wrong. If they believed that shallowly, the Traditions would have melded into one style already rather than insisting on maintaining their own (and looking down their noses at everyone else). So, a world where the Traditions win, is a world that's split into fiefs and with skirmishing going on.

I can't think of a Tradition that I'd trust to 'run' society, a place that'd actually be nice as one of the masses to live in. I'm sure it's relatively fine as a member of the ubermensch, but the likelihood of being such is ... low.

The Dreamspeakers and Verbena are luddites. I like nature, but I don't want to live in the natural world 24/7, shit in the woods, bathe in the rivers, get bitten by a ton of insects, and probably subsist on either a hunter-gatherer or small agricultural diet. Piss off your lovely mother earth goddess witch, and you probably get your heart ripped out or sacrificed to bless the fields. Do we still have running water in this conception of reality? Gas or electricity?

The Euthanatos and Akashics feel like they'd be most similar to the warrior monks of old, and Hermetics the wizards in their tower. Powerful, implacable, inscrutable, and oh yeah, they probably kill people at will with no oversight nor justification to the poor peasants you are if you meet whatever arbitrary standard they've decided. Don't pay enough respect, get punched into oblivion. Who do you turn to for recourse here? Are there courts to file suit for wrongful death or is a justice system some Technocratic construct? Do you plead to your utterly terrifying local chantry leader? What if by some crazy mage cult standard, it was justified because of something something karma bullshit? I mean, in fantasy books, this sort of thing is normally portrayed as a dystopia.

Adepts and Sons of Ether are pretty mad scientist. Is your day lacking in explosions? Strange experiments running amok? Maybe a world of laissez faire capitalism - and if you got snookered into paying your life savings in desperate hope for a cure, well, you should have done your research on the Digital Web and then determined if it was true on your own, never mind that the VAs can run circles around everyone there so it was never a fair contest in the first place.

And for all that, the Celestial Chorus-led area is still probably the scariest. Because if there's one thing we all missed, it was probably the Inquisition. The days when the Church ran everything from birth to weekly prayer meetings to blessings or advice on any endeavors, commercial or private, to marriage or even burial, it really makes me nostalgic. And of course, good parishioners would love to volunteer to join the Crusade and defend the Holy Land from the unbelievers who will tear down this magical theocracy utopia.

At the end of the day, it seems to me that the Technocracy, paternalistic, imperialistic, flawed as it is, is the only group interested in helping the masses* and the only one that will provide a standard of living that doesn't have arrogant mages storming through and ruining your life on a whim.

[* Don't kid yourself. We're all going to be the masses getting trod on underfoot in that brave, new world. And even if you were awakened, why are you so selfish to focus on your power and privileges instead of ensuring a decent place for the vast majority of regular people?]
So you'd rather have the Technocracy running things than the Traditions because, among other reasons, you don't want the inheritors of the Crusades and Inquisition (like the Cabal of Pure Thought which became the NWO), or unfettered capitalism (like the Syndicate), or mad scientists (like the fine folks in Iteration X and the Progenitors). Hurrah for the Void Engineers?
 
I can't tell if you're arguing that beating the Technocracy will make people Awaken a lot more, or if you're taking @ganonso's (and @MJ12 Commando's) suggestion to make linear sorcery much more ubiquitous and thus make Consensus primarily a stricture on Mages and not something that enables things at all.

Like, I'm sympathetic to setting interpretations that paint the Traditions as having the stronger position, but you're doing a really bad job of communicating what you think are the setting tenets that lead to that, as opposed to the interpretation where Consensus breaking means modern technology fails and nothing fills the void.

The Technocracy's way of operating makes it inherrently less likely that they'll awaken, especially because mages are an active threat to them, and they tend to hunt them down. In at least one mage game I've played, they're willing to hunt down individuals who they've identified as having a risk of awakening as not-technocrats and try to prevent that awakening by traumatising them or killing them.

More than that, the traditions are just much more equipped to push people towards Ascension than the Technocracy is. They have a better idea of what Ascension actually consists of for one thing.

It's possible that someone will just create another version of the technocracy with necromatnic fate powers, but that's not something that needs to happen.

I'll take a world where a million and one people live like modern Africans over one where one person lives like a God and a million other people rot in hell, thank you very much.

The Traditions views of Ascension are much better if you are a member of that Tradition. For everyone else, it sucks even worse than the worst case Technocratic baseline.

The victory of the traditions isn't going to throw the population into hell. That's silly.

What it will do is mean that potentially a lot more people can be induced to awaken as mages. That's not something the technocracy can offer.

With the caveat that my understanding of WOD comes from Panopticon Quest...

There's your problem!

I don't really think that the technocracy is really helping the masses, for all of their claims. Certainly the virtual adepts and the like are spreading technology and the like to help everyone.
 
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So you'd rather have the Technocracy running things than the Traditions because, among other reasons, you don't want the inheritors of the Crusades and Inquisition (like the Cabal of Pure Thought which became the NWO), or unfettered capitalism (like the Syndicate), or mad scientists (like the fine folks in Iteration X and the Progenitors). Hurrah for the Void Engineers?
To be fair, while ItX and the Progenitors are Jail Scaglietti, the Etherites are Sparks. I'm not all that fond of either running around unfettered, but I'd choose the former over the latter any day.
 
I've always thought if the Traditionalists win the world turns into Eberron or something. After all, what difference is there between a wizard with the right metamagic feats and a psionicist or sorcerer?

Arcane Magic - Hermetics
Psionics - Etherites/60s era NWO Types
Divine Magic(Which runs on belief in Eberron) - Choristers
Monks - Akashic Brotherhood
Druids/Spellcasting Rangers - Verbena/Dreamspeakers
House Sivis - It's a stretch but maybe the Virtual Adepts?
The Maruts of Dolurrh -It's a stretch but maybe Euthanatos
I don't know for the Cult of Ecstasy.


The Trust(Zilargo Secret Police) - Current era NWO types
Artificers/House Cannith - Iteration X/Etherites
Daelkyr Shenanigans/Possible House Vadalis breeding programs - Progenitors
House Orien/House Lyrandar - It's a stretch but maybe Void Engineers
The Aurum - Syndicate
 
The Technocracy's way of operating makes it inherrently less likely that they'll awaken, especially because mages are an active threat to them, and they tend to hunt them down. In at least one mage game I've played, they're willing to hunt down individuals who they've identified as having a risk of awakening as not-technocrats and try to prevent that awakening by traumatising them or killing them.

That not 'your game,' that canon.
 
More than that, the traditions are just much more equipped to push people towards Ascension than the Technocracy is. They have a better idea of what Ascension actually consists of for one thing.

That's quite the claim, given how Ascension is basically never defined. :V

I don't really think that the technocracy is really helping the masses, for all of their claims. Certainly the virtual adepts and the like are spreading technology and the like to help everyone.

Do you disagree that planes, industrial agriculture and antibiotics work because the vast majority of people believe they will work in Mage the Ascension? Do you believe modernity, even the shitty 90s one of Mage, is better for people than the early middle ages?

Do you believe that such conformity of belief would last if the Technocratic Union weren't enforcing it - ie. would modernity function without totalitarianism?

The Technocracy's way of operating makes it inherrently less likely that they'll awaken, especially because mages are an active threat to them, and they tend to hunt them down.

I don't recall there being that many more Mages per capita in the Dark Ages. Wherever the Sleep came from, I don't think you can blame it on the Union.

Edit:
"Okay if we delete all the bits of spiritual ascension that we can't actually figure out how to easily implement, like the godlike power and general benefits of the whole deal we can totally get ascension."

There's plenty of techno-utopic endstates the Union might be aiming for. A Culture Orbital is the most obvious for an ItX goal, whereas the actual Ascension would be Subliming. The Union simply holds it must be done together, with a unified Consensus opening the way, as opposed to lone mystics becoming one with the universe by force of Arête - a process the Traditions can't consistently achieve.

As long as they don't eat too many humans!

'Man, fuck police. They don't prevent all crime ever, so why bother?'

What a spurious line of argument.
 
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So you'd rather have the Technocracy running things than the Traditions because, among other reasons, you don't want the inheritors of the Crusades and Inquisition (like the Cabal of Pure Thought which became the NWO), or unfettered capitalism (like the Syndicate), or mad scientists (like the fine folks in Iteration X and the Progenitors). Hurrah for the Void Engineers?
Hey, hey, hey.

They have plenty of mad scientists in the Engineers, thank you very much.
 
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Hey, hey, hey.

They have plenty of mad scientists in the Engineers, thank you very much.

See? You guys should totally defect and get the Adepts to hack some financial records you a better budget for space programs. It'd be great, and you can spend less time suppressing reports of relatively harmless beings that don't fit into the Technocratic Consensus and more time focusing on making sure the REAL threats don't come in.
 
To be fair, while ItX and the Progenitors are Jail Scaglietti, the Etherites are Sparks. I'm not all that fond of either running around unfettered, but I'd choose the former over the latter any day.
I'm not sure how I'd go there. I mean, the Spark-types seem like they'd be more prone to getting distracted from doing horrible things to your loved ones by an idea for a cheese-powered velocipede.
I've always thought if the Traditionalists win the world turns into Eberron or something. After all, what difference is there between a wizard with the right metamagic feats and a psionicist or sorcerer?
I suspect a Traditionalist victory looks a lot like your typical superhero universe, once it's been around long enough that the general population is used to the cyborgs and the mutants and the wizards and the incredibly-skilled martial artists and the chosen of a dozen different pantheons running around.
Hey, hey, hey.

They have plenty of mad scientists in the Engineers, thank you very much.
Well, shit. I guess we're down to some of the Crafts, then.
See? You guys should totally defect and get the Adepts to hack some financial records you a better budget for space programs. It'd be great, and you can spend less time suppressing reports of relatively harmless beings that don't fit into the Technocratic Consensus and more time focusing on making sure the REAL threats don't come in.
If budget's the problem, I'm not sure ditching the group with the Syndicate in it is the best move.
 
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That would require the Adepts to hack substantial portions of the Syndicate's Prime flows though. And then give it to us, rather than using it themselves.

This doesn't sound like a viable plan compared to sticking with the Syndicate. Either way, we have to convince elitist mathemagician pricks to give us money.
I suspect a Traditionalist victory looks a lot like your typical superhero universe, once it's been around long enough that the general population is used to the cyborgs and the mutants and the wizards and the incredibly-skilled martial artists and the chosen of a dozen different pantheons running around.
*looks at the DC and Marvel Universes*

So... basically what all the Traditions-haters think?
 
I'm not sure how I'd go there. I mean, the Spark-types seem like they'd be more prone to getting distracted from doing horrible things to your loved ones by an idea for a cheese-powered velocipede.
Ah, but they're also more likely to attempt localized physics rewrites for shits and giggles. Or to disprove someone else's theory. Or because someone annoyed them. ItX and the Progenitors are at least mildly restrained by their organized structure and their position as part of the greater Technocracy. And generally seem a (bit) more sane.

I suspect a Traditionalist victory looks a lot like your typical superhero universe, once it's been around long enough that the general population is used to the cyborgs and the mutants and the wizards and the incredibly-skilled martial artists and the chosen of a dozen different pantheons running around.
"Apocalyptic events at a yearly rate at least" is not the most ah, compelling sales pitch.
 
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This conversation also gives an idea for a story/game session where dissident factions from all the Conventions(maybe dissidents from the Traditions too) band together and leave trying to form their own group.

From the Syndicate, we of course have the anarcho-syndicalists. Labour is power, all value comes from labor(which makes it almost like the economic version of the Sons of Ether, ascribing totally to what most consider a flawed theory) and those who labour must be freed of their chains! Broke with the Technocracy when the NWO turned the communist ideology into what we all know and slaughtered anarchists who truly and deeply believed in science, materialism, etc but would never accept the NWO program.

From Iteration X we have Transhumanists/H+ who believe that machines offer choice and freedom. Broke with the Technocracy in large part because they agreed with the Adepts on most issues and refused to attack those who they considered to be closer to aiding their cause than the Conventions.

From the Progenitors we have the Association for Ethical Medicine. Reasons for breaking from their parent tradition kind of explain themselves.

From the NWO we have the Mercenaries; This is the world of darkness. These guys basically broke with NWO because they realized they liked spy games and black ops in themselves and didn't really care for the program, and left to avoid the psych evaluations that would reveal them as impulse sociopaths(the sociopathy would be considered acceptable, the impulsiveness not).

From the Void Engineers we have the Psychonaughts; Basically talked to too many beings the traditions did and realized if the mind itself could be used as the primary foci for travel their budget problems would be over.
 
So... basically what all the Traditions-haters think?
"Apocalyptic events at a yearly rate or even more frequently" is not the most ah, compelling sales pitch.
Thing is, it's starting from a baseline of the World of Darkness. Apocalyptic events are already coming, and if the murder-furries don't tell you about it the bloodsuckers ranting about the Time of Thin Blood probably will. There are already ghosts and aliens and stranger things running about, it's just that most people don't know about them because of all the supervillain conspiracies trying to keep a lid on things. The main difference is that the dominant society of will-workers is actually interested in the average Joe knowing what's out there, because a Traditions Consensus has room for all that and more, and at least one of them is big on information wanting to be free. Which, granted, means that the things that go bump have less reason to restrain themselves so as to not give the secret away. On the other hand, working out or praying hard or busting out that gizmo you've been tinkering with in your garage could actually give you a chance against one of them, because the Consensus says that such things can have extraordinary results. Tradeoffs.
 
Thing is, it's starting from a baseline of the World of Darkness. Apocalyptic events are already coming, and if the murder-furries don't tell you about it the bloodsuckers ranting about the Time of Thin Blood probably will.
Yeah, but that's pretty unusual, historically-speaking; any given supers verse has way, way more near-apocalyptic events than WoD, unless you narrow your lens to the Time of Judgment alone.

The whole Ravnos affair is like, a single Avengers arc. Maaybe a limited crossover event.
 
Thing is, it's starting from a baseline of the World of Darkness. Apocalyptic events are already coming, and if the murder-furries don't tell you about it the bloodsuckers ranting about the Time of Thin Blood probably will. There are already ghosts and aliens and stranger things running about, it's just that most people don't know about them because of all the supervillain conspiracies trying to keep a lid on things. The main difference is that the dominant society of will-workers is actually interested in the average Joe knowing what's out there, because a Traditions Consensus has room for all that and more, and at least one of them is big on information wanting to be free. Which, granted, means that the things that go bump have less reason to restrain themselves so as to not give the secret away. On the other hand, working out or praying hard or busting out that gizmo you've been tinkering with in your garage could actually give you a chance against one of them, because the Consensus says that such things can have extraordinary results. Tradeoffs.

on the other hand, if the Technocrats ever won, and traditional magick and myths were stamped out, all the things that go bump in the night could very well cease to exist.
 
Entropy, and so the Wyrm, will still be in the Consensus. Atrocities of the sort powerful capitalists and states perform would remain and there would be no opposition(if the Technocracy every truly won) except for debate among those committing them. The range of thought itself will be limited, and freedom lessened considerably(I may be the only one here who literally holds freedom as the highest value, but most people will at least admit its of some great, deep importance such that it would be terrible for it to be lost). The things in the Deep Umbra, some of them depending on what interpretation you're going for are as bad as the Wyrm itself, are still there though forced into distant space. Weapons of war will remain, and without an external threat the Union might well fall apart due to long-term interests being incompatible(the Progenitors will want to perfect biological life; Iteration X will want all biological life to be upgraded into efficient machines long-term. The Syndicate wants profit, and the profit motive adds perverse inventives to scientific research; a few Syndicate board members with mind control worms responded to with biological researchers ending up dying from starvation in poverty after a few forms are signed while the NWO tortures everyone they can as part of a mind control rote to make them compliant in a desperate attempt to hold the Union together).
 
Yeah, but that's pretty unusual, historically-speaking; any given supers verse has way, way more near-apocalyptic events than WoD, unless you narrow your lens to the Time of Judgment alone.

The whole Ravnos affair is like, a single Avengers arc. Maaybe a limited crossover event.
True. One of the ways the analogy isn't perfect, then. Trad dominance wouldn't give death a six-month duration, either.
on the other hand, if the Technocrats ever won, and traditional magick and myths were stamped out, all the things that go bump in the night could very well cease to exist.
I suspect it'd take about the level of control over consensus that you'd need for Plan Everybody Ascends, but reach for the stars.
 
The victory of the traditions isn't going to throw the population into hell. That's silly.

Plenty of Traditions believe in hell, or a state so equivalent as to be functionally indistinguishable. Like, the realm of the dead exists in WoD and its a very terrible place to 'live' and the Traditions will basically keep it around whereas the Technocracy will prevent everyone from ever being eaten by spectres in the Labyrinth and digested in the gut of a Malfean for eternity.

What it will do is mean that potentially a lot more people can be induced to awaken as mages. That's not something the technocracy can offer.

So?

Why should I, Mr I'm Never Going To Awaken, care that you have achieved some sublime transcendent bliss state that it is impossible for 99% of humanity to achieve?

The thing is, we know what a Tradition victory is like; because they had it for all of history until the Renaissance. Somehow, they didn't manage to achieve global ascension in all that time. So why should they be given a second chance?
 
The Traditions break the back of the Technocratic Union, somehow. Now what? Dark Ages 2.0?
If you're lucky. In practice, it will just devolve into fiefdoms where mages are the god kings in one form or another.
So... basically Atlantis from nWoD, except there will be a bunch of them, and reality will work differently around each one.
So one will be Atlantis from the Disney movie, another will be Columbia from Bioshock: Infinite, one will be the Valley of Peace from Kung Fu Panda (only, you know, with humans instead of CGI animal people... :p ), etc.
 

Satyros Phil Brucato (he changed his name to include "Satyros") was a fairly prolific early White Wolf author who worked extensively on Mage 2e, and is responsible for a lot of its eccentricities. The issue of invoking authorial intent on Mage 2e is that you invoke the intent of Brucato, which might have unforeseen consequences. For example, Brucato has stated that the Traditions are really not much better than the Technocracy because they're both fighting to impose rules on a setting that works by chaos magick. He also writes the setting so that the real enemy isn't modernism or authority, but Cthulhu-worshipping nihilistic serial-killer mages.

(The reason Mage 2e was rather vague in how the different Traditions cast magick was that Brucato sincerely believed that if he described magickal paradigms in too much detail, players might accidentally cast real spells at the table.)
 
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