The world began in 1962.
I guess that explains why older Vampires have screwed up memories.
And before that it began in the 1980s.
And before that in the 1600s.
And before that human life developed on a different planet.
And before that the Dragons laughed at the Apes' pathetic attempts to create a civilization.
Aren't cosmic retcons resetting the timeline a great thing?
 
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Sure, but Traditions flatter your liberalism. :V

Being an agent of the aristocracy doesn't flatter my liberalism.

I'd love to see how this plan ends up effective without resorting to tactics fundamentally similar to those of the Union.

"Okay if we delete all the bits of spiritual ascension that we can't actually figure out how to easily implement, like the godlike power and general benefits of the whole deal we can totally get ascension."

The perfect is the enemy of the good.

As long as they don't eat too many humans!
 
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But what does this mean about the Bodhisattvas of the Broken Cage? If the world they were revolting against in the sixties didn't exist...?!
The default assumption in NWoD was always that History didn't actually exist as people remembered it.
But Elder Vampires remember what really happened, they know the True History of the world even if others mistakenly call it "The Fog of Ages".
And the Fae don't actually care, different Masks for different Times.
 
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The default assumption in NWoD was always that History didn't actually exist as people remembered it.
But Elder Vampires remember what really happened, they know the True History of the world even if others mistakenly call it "The Fog of Ages".
And the Fae don't actually care, different Masks for different Times.

I am now reminded of just why world of darkness is so great.

...I can tell you I'm ignoring this because it seems stupid, and you can't say, "But that's illegal" because everyone ignores stuff they think seems stupid.

All. The. Time.
 
The default assumption in NWoD was always that History didn't actually exist as people remembered it.
But Elder Vampires remember what really happened, they know the True History of the world even if others mistakenly call it "The Fog of Ages".

You've claimed that multiple times, and you remain wrong. There is no such default assumption - indeed, Ancient Mysteries discusses several possibilities for the Fog of Ages and leaves it open.
 
I am now reminded of just why world of darkness is so great.
...I can tell you I'm ignoring this because it seems stupid, and you can't say, "But that's illegal" because everyone ignores stuff they think seems stupid.
All. The. Time.
Yes, NWoD is supposed to be a tool box setting.
Pick and choose the bits that you like and ignore the rest.
You've claimed that multiple times, and you remain wrong. There is no such default assumption - indeed, Ancient Mysteries discusses several possibilities for the Fog of Ages and leaves it open.
Yeah.
There was never a "cannon" answer and probably never will be.
But one of the possibilities was that all the examples are true regardless of contradiction, and that All-of-the-above option that screws over the timeline as much as possible is the option that I have picked.
you mean the guys who have to sleep through a couple centuries not to go on a blood hungry killing spree among their fellows, and then wake up not remembering anything before that clearly due to memory and dream mixing in their sleep?
Yes.
 
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I'd love to see how this plan ends up effective without resorting to tactics fundamentally similar to those of the Union.

Well, that is the point; There are many paths to enlightment, all of them valid, for those that can follow them. And the thing is, the TU path isn't universally applicable to everybody, no matter how much they say it is. Trying to impose it over everybody is exactly the same that the cult of ecstasy poisoning the water supplies with drugs.
 
Fog of Ages? Gee, what are you people talking about? That's surely not 2e talk.

Also I want 1000 years of night, but like all the other books I want, I'm not getting them soon enough.
 
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Well, that is the point; There are many paths to enlightment, all of them valid, for those that can follow them. And the thing is, the TU path isn't universally applicable to everybody, no matter how much they say it is. Trying to impose it over everybody is exactly the same that the cult of ecstasy poisoning the water supplies with drugs.

To be honest it may well be that the Traditions end up having an ultimate show down when they finally defeat the Technocracy. . .

My answer to that is so what? There's not a single tradition that doesn't have an ideal of Ascension better than "If we close our fists really truly tight then we'll prevent anyone from doing anything a sleeper can't and that's totally ascension."
 
My answer to that is so what? There's not a single tradition that doesn't have an ideal of Ascension better than "If we close our fists really truly tight then we'll prevent anyone from doing anything a sleeper can't and that's totally ascension."

You're missing the other half of Technocratic Ascension - expand what Sleepers can do. Which, uh, the Traditions don't seem to have a plan to do. At all.

(Awakening them doesn't count, because they can't do it with any consistency)

The Traditions break the back of the Technocratic Union, somehow. Now what? Dark Ages 2.0?
 
One possibility would be to teach everyone Linear Sorcery. While not on par with Awakened magic, sorcery can be taught reliably and extends the capacities of Sleepers just fine.
 
You're missing the other half of Technocratic Ascension - expand what Sleepers can do. Which, uh, the Traditions don't seem to have a plan to do. At all.

(Awakening them doesn't count, because they can't do it with any consistency)
Maybe not the traditions you know cyborg!

The traditions certainly want to expand what Sleepers can do. Hense static mages.
The Traditions break the back of the Technocratic Union, somehow. Now what? Dark Ages 2.0?

Well, if the traditions have beaten the technocracy, that means they've cracked open static reality, and are probably busy teaching all the sleepers various forms of magical power.

So it probably ends up looking like one of those animes.
 
From a certain perspective, the present state of the traditions in OWoD after their general 'fall' as well as the fact the Technocracy has lost its original ideals, had two conventions defecting with signs of more possibly following, has a convention in league with agents of Corruption and is the target of a perfectly just war in light of its own crimes and its paternalistic(Vorlon-like, really) attitude towards Sleepers are both signs of the same 'crime' of hubris; interestingly enough not hubris towards gods but hubris towards the same unenlightened masses they awoke from, have the same power they do in a sense though unaware of it and define which of their magics is considered coincidental or paradoxical. So from that perspective, Mage is actually a profoundly egalitarian game and a suitable narrative ending for their traditions would be to beat the Technocracy but allow their conventions to remain as valid choices, creating some kind of peace treaty to not fight each other but allow all their paradigms to be valid choices for Sleepers to choose and try to move the Consensus towards this sort of greater choice and do exactly as gananso said by teaching theri paradigms as linear sorcery to all who aren't awakened with technology being one form of hedge magic among many that are available as choices while also gently encouraging Awakening as much as can be done in whatever way can be done while also studying Ascension as deeply as possible and maybe even propagating the idea among the Sleepers that Ascension is possible; maybe Ascension would come when everyone truly believes they can Ascend, when the concept of Ascension itself becomes the Conensus?
 
Well, if the traditions have beaten the technocracy, that means they've cracked open static reality, and are probably busy teaching all the sleepers various forms of magical power.

So it probably ends up looking like one of those animes.

I can't tell if you're arguing that beating the Technocracy will make people Awaken a lot more, or if you're taking @ganonso's (and @MJ12 Commando's) suggestion to make linear sorcery much more ubiquitous and thus make Consensus primarily a stricture on Mages and not something that enables things at all.

Like, I'm sympathetic to setting interpretations that paint the Traditions as having the stronger position, but you're doing a really bad job of communicating what you think are the setting tenets that lead to that, as opposed to the interpretation where Consensus breaking means modern technology fails and nothing fills the void.
 
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To be honest it may well be that the Traditions end up having an ultimate show down when they finally defeat the Technocracy. . .

My answer to that is so what? There's not a single tradition that doesn't have an ideal of Ascension better than "If we close our fists really truly tight then we'll prevent anyone from doing anything a sleeper can't and that's totally ascension."

I'll take a world where a million and one people live like modern Africans over one where one person lives like a God and a million other people rot in hell, thank you very much.

The Traditions views of Ascension are much better if you are a member of that Tradition. For everyone else, it sucks even worse than the worst case Technocratic baseline.
 
With the caveat that my understanding of WOD comes from Panopticon Quest...

The Traditions seem like very selfish groups to me. Does any one of them have, as part of their ideology and mission statement, any provision to help the masses? A feasible plan to do so? Is this plan better than the Technocracy's? They're groups that demand the right to practice their magic as they like, heedless of any impacts this may have on the world or people around them, and go ballistic at the thought of any restriction or oversight. They're mono-focused on themselves, so blind to their own privilege as a mage, they construct their own story of oppression and demand more privileges.

If the Technocracy is Kipling and the imperialistic white man's burden, then the Traditions are the white libertarian men, the ones who believe there's a war on Christmas or who take over federal buildings in Oregon.

I know that some of the Traditions seem like they're set up to be the indigenous peoples who get crushed beneath western 'enlightened' civilization, a la Dreamspeakers, but that's not the tone or feeling that takes place when people defend the Traditions. It feels hollow. Inevitably, I can't help but feel that the Technocracy, for all its warts and faults, is probably a nicer place to live for anyone that's not part of the overclass than one run by Traditions.

The Traditions don't like each other. They're forced by the Technocracy as external pressure to work together, but I don't see one Tradition mage not believing that the other Tradition mage is doing it wrong. If they believed that shallowly, the Traditions would have melded into one style already rather than insisting on maintaining their own (and looking down their noses at everyone else). So, a world where the Traditions win, is a world that's split into fiefs and with skirmishing going on.

I can't think of a Tradition that I'd trust to 'run' society, a place that'd actually be nice as one of the masses to live in. I'm sure it's relatively fine as a member of the ubermensch, but the likelihood of being such is ... low.

The Dreamspeakers and Verbena are luddites. I like nature, but I don't want to live in the natural world 24/7, shit in the woods, bathe in the rivers, get bitten by a ton of insects, and probably subsist on either a hunter-gatherer or small agricultural diet. Piss off your lovely mother earth goddess witch, and you probably get your heart ripped out or sacrificed to bless the fields. Do we still have running water in this conception of reality? Gas or electricity?

The Euthanatos and Akashics feel like they'd be most similar to the warrior monks of old, and Hermetics the wizards in their tower. Powerful, implacable, inscrutable, and oh yeah, they probably kill people at will with no oversight nor justification to the poor peasants you are if you meet whatever arbitrary standard they've decided. Don't pay enough respect, get punched into oblivion. Who do you turn to for recourse here? Are there courts to file suit for wrongful death or is a justice system some Technocratic construct? Do you plead to your utterly terrifying local chantry leader? What if by some crazy mage cult standard, it was justified because of something something karma bullshit? I mean, in fantasy books, this sort of thing is normally portrayed as a dystopia.

Adepts and Sons of Ether are pretty mad scientist. Is your day lacking in explosions? Strange experiments running amok? Maybe a world of laissez faire capitalism - and if you got snookered into paying your life savings in desperate hope for a cure, well, you should have done your research on the Digital Web and then determined if it was true on your own, never mind that the VAs can run circles around everyone there so it was never a fair contest in the first place.

And for all that, the Celestial Chorus-led area is still probably the scariest. Because if there's one thing we all missed, it was probably the Inquisition. The days when the Church ran everything from birth to weekly prayer meetings to blessings or advice on any endeavors, commercial or private, to marriage or even burial, it really makes me nostalgic. And of course, good parishioners would love to volunteer to join the Crusade and defend the Holy Land from the unbelievers who will tear down this magical theocracy utopia.

At the end of the day, it seems to me that the Technocracy, paternalistic, imperialistic, flawed as it is, is the only group interested in helping the masses* and the only one that will provide a standard of living that doesn't have arrogant mages storming through and ruining your life on a whim.

[* Don't kid yourself. We're all going to be the masses getting trod on underfoot in that brave, new world. And even if you were awakened, why are you so selfish to focus on your power and privileges instead of ensuring a decent place for the vast majority of regular people?]
 
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Does any one of them have, as part of their ideology and mission statement, any provision to help the masses?

Yes, all of them. Well, except the Order of Hermes. The Order is a bunch of asshole. But all the other Traditions have plans to help the masses.

They just have different definitions of what 'help' means. The Technocracy defines it as 'safety and security' whereas the Celestial Chorus define it as "experiencing closeness to the One/getting into heaven" and the Akashic/Euthoanto view it as "escaping the illusion of reality" and so on.

They all want to help everyone, they just disagree on what that means.

Except the Order.

Because assholes.
 
A world ran by the Cult would be awesome for the most part, though its unlikely the majority factions would even be interested in running anything... sharing new experiences and new methods to experience reality from different points of view yes, ruling over no. You'd get the occasional berzerker warrior Cultist or something who kills people in a fit of that sort of ecstatic experience but at least there would be life and passion even in that and the number of atrocities would be equal to or less than the Technocracy and those atrocities would not be outright supported as a 'necessary evil' or set of papers to rubber stamp. You couldn't necessarily rely on the majority to outright oppose those who go too far because the Cult does have the flaw of getting wrapped up in their experience and sharing of experiences but at least it wouldn't be outright total support.
 
Also regarding the Akashic Brotherhood; compassion is a central value associated with the religions, traditions and cultures that inspired the Akashic Brotherhood in OWoD, and this includes meditation techniques meant to increase and actually practice compassion. Studies done IRL on meditation, including loving-kindness/metta meditation, show a lot of benefits. So a world where the Akashic Brotherhood has a lot of influence is also a more compassionate world that is oriented towards eliminating the suffering of all sentient beings. Some aspects of them are pretty grim, and there are really screwed up feudal traditions associated with some AB stuff, but do you really think those aspects of their tradition would be the ones they would be most focused on resurrecting or rather the core values such as eliminated the suffering of all sentient beings, loving-kindness, self-discipline and such? If you were treating the Technocracy in as one-sided a manner as some Traditions are being treated you would be arguing they're empty shells who want everyone literally lobotomized so that they can work in factories to build the great machine.
 
I imagine some factions of Iteration X and the NWO would want that honestly, but certainly not all of them and many would likely be as horrified at the idea as anyone... hence the point about one-sided viewpoints. Heh
 
With the caveat that my understanding of WOD comes from Panopticon Quest...

The Traditions seem like very selfish groups to me. Does any one of them have, as part of their ideology and mission statement, any provision to help the masses? A feasible plan to do so? Is this plan better than the Technocracy's? They're groups that demand the right to practice their magic as they like, heedless of any impacts this may have on the world or people around them, and go ballistic at the thought of any restriction or oversight. They're mono-focused on themselves, so blind to their own privilege as a mage, they construct their own story of oppression and demand more privileges.

If the Technocracy is Kipling and the imperialistic white man's burden, then the Traditions are the white libertarian men, the ones who believe there's a war on Christmas or who take over federal buildings in Oregon.

I know that some of the Traditions seem like they're set up to be the indigenous peoples who get crushed beneath western 'enlightened' civilization, a la Dreamspeakers, but that's not the tone or feeling that takes place when people defend the Traditions. It feels hollow. Inevitably, I can't help but feel that the Technocracy, for all its warts and faults, is probably a nicer place to live for anyone that's not part of the overclass than one run by Traditions.

The Traditions don't like each other. They're forced by the Technocracy as external pressure to work together, but I don't see one Tradition mage not believing that the other Tradition mage is doing it wrong. If they believed that shallowly, the Traditions would have melded into one style already rather than insisting on maintaining their own (and looking down their noses at everyone else). So, a world where the Traditions win, is a world that's split into fiefs and with skirmishing going on.

I can't think of a Tradition that I'd trust to 'run' society, a place that'd actually be nice as one of the masses to live in. I'm sure it's relatively fine as a member of the ubermensch, but the likelihood of being such is ... low.

The Dreamspeakers and Verbena are luddites. I like nature, but I don't want to live in the natural world 24/7, shit in the woods, bathe in the rivers, get bitten by a ton of insects, and probably subsist on either a hunter-gatherer or small agricultural diet. Piss off your lovely mother earth goddess witch, and you probably get your heart ripped out or sacrificed to bless the fields. Do we still have running water in this conception of reality? Gas or electricity?

The Euthanatos and Akashics feel like they'd be most similar to the warrior monks of old, and Hermetics the wizards in their tower. Powerful, implacable, inscrutable, and oh yeah, they probably kill people at will with no oversight nor justification to the poor peasants you are if you meet whatever arbitrary standard they've decided. Don't pay enough respect, get punched into oblivion. Who do you turn to for recourse here? Are there courts to file suit for wrongful death or is a justice system some Technocratic construct? Do you plead to your utterly terrifying local chantry leader? What if by some crazy mage cult standard, it was justified because of something something karma bullshit? I mean, in fantasy books, this sort of thing is normally portrayed as a dystopia.

Adepts and Sons of Ether are pretty mad scientist. Is your day lacking in explosions? Strange experiments running amok? Maybe a world of laissez faire capitalism - and if you got snookered into paying your life savings in desperate hope for a cure, well, you should have done your research on the Digital Web and then determined if it was true on your own, never mind that the VAs can run circles around everyone there so it was never a fair contest in the first place.

And for all that, the Celestial Chorus-led area is still probably the scariest. Because if there's one thing we all missed, it was probably the Inquisition. The days when the Church ran everything from birth to weekly prayer meetings to blessings or advice on any endeavors, commercial or private, to marriage or even burial, it really makes me nostalgic. And of course, good parishioners would love to volunteer to join the Crusade and defend the Holy Land from the unbelievers who will tear down this magical theocracy utopia.

At the end of the day, it seems to me that the Technocracy, paternalistic, imperialistic, flawed as it is, is the only group interested in helping the masses* and the only one that will provide a standard of living that doesn't have arrogant mages storming through and ruining your life on a whim.

[* Don't kid yourself. We're all going to be the masses getting trod on underfoot in that brave, new world. And even if you were awakened, why are you so selfish to focus on your power and privileges instead of ensuring a decent place for the vast majority of regular people?]

I am a proud Technocrat and even I feel that you're mischaracterising the Traditions somewhat. They've all got plans to help people, the problem is that their plans are batshit insane.

Except for the Order. But, as many people have already said, fuck those tossers.
 
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