Well yes, given that the alternative is handing ultimate cosmic power to all the people who, to take an example at random, think gay people deserve to burn in hell for all eternity and breaking the Consensus that slaps them with Paradox if they try to enforce this, I am entirely comfortable with that. You say that the natural state for humanity is to be Awakened, but... that... doesn't really seem to be the case? Like, back before the Order of Reason, there still weren't many mages. The vast majority of humanity are counted among the Masses. Did something change from a glorious past where everyone was Enlightened? Some sort of great Darkening?

Heh. World of Darkness. Appropriate.

But yeah, I don't really think that view is valid given the sheer rarity of Awakening. And the Technocratic attitude that doesn't trust most people with ultimate power... is, uh, something I wholeheartedly agree with. For every Superman, there's a Darkseid. For every Daisy Johnson, there's a Lash. A strictly material global Consensus that posits power as something in the hands of the masses is a Consensus that protects Sleepers from mages, and while you can say "well working out how to Ascend everyone is a job for you; the players!", the fact that it needs to be because nobody else has a fucking clue how to do it does not fill me with confidence that I will succeed at such, or indeed confidence that this is the side I should be putting my faith and player-character powers of plot progression with.

We actually do have rules that while new souls are rare, all new souls naturally Awaken. It's only in future incarnations, broken and loaded down with sins and scars and failures, that you will fail to Awaken.

So yes, the natural state of humanity is Awakened and sleep is a fail state. It might not be your fault you failed to awaken - lots of things can darken a soul that have nothing to do with that persons decisions, but it is a collective failure.
 
Well yes, given that the alternative is handing ultimate cosmic power to all the people who, to take an example at random, think gay people deserve to burn in hell for all eternity and breaking the Consensus that slaps them with Paradox if they try to enforce this, I am entirely comfortable with that. You say that the natural state for humanity is to be Awakened, but... that... doesn't really seem to be the case? Like, back before the Order of Reason, there still weren't many mages. The vast majority of humanity are counted among the Masses. Did something change from a glorious past where everyone was Enlightened? Some sort of great Darkening?

Presumably, people who don't think gay people should burn in hell would have the same level of power as those who view in a post awakened world. Beyond that, you're suggesting the possibly bad consequences of mass awakening are worse than the actual bad consequences of the technocracy plan which include genocide of entire species of sapient umbral life forms, changelings etc.

To be honest I also don't particularly think the technocracy is going to be a particularly swell guardian for liberalism either. Remember the technocracy is the force that spread colonialism, and a whole lot of bigotry throughout the world. I personally worry less about a few rogue mages than I would about the technocracy deciding certain social forms are deviant.
 
The downside is that the technocracy is a group quite willing to conduct genocide, so to create a perfect causal universe, they'll almost certainly kill everyone who disagrees.
Yes, but oMage. Ascension basically requires that anyway. This is kind of an inescapable problem with ascension scenarios in consensus reality; you cannot control global opinion without being kind of awful.
 
Yes, but oMage. Ascension basically requires that anyway. This is kind of an inescapable problem with ascension scenarios in consensus reality; you cannot control global opinion without being kind of awful.

That's because Ascension is a personal travel; You can't force it upon people, no more that you can put a square peg in a round hole. If you try, bad things happen.

What the TU does is putting extra barriers in the way to enlightement (As if it wasn't hard enough!) barring people to other paths to it that aren't the one they control.
 
I think we can safely say its not "Suck all the magic out of the world, actively attack spiritualism, kill any mage who doesn't follow your paradigm." Is not how ascension is supposed to work

If I recall them correctly (there's four editions of MTAs I have to keep distinct!) 1e and 2e both state that the Technocracy is making a path to global Ascension - but it would be the Ascension of the lowest common denominator, accomplishing Global Ascension without allowing for people to be special or wonderful. (Like, if we're going to complain that the Technocracy are kind of fascist, I think it's entirely fair to point out that the Traditions are kind of Objectivist.)

On the other hand, the Technocracy is directly responsible for the imperial projects of most European powers, and at least partly responsible for the genocide of the natives in various areas of the world that aren't Europe, as well as numerous sapient umbral entities I think you're going to have great difficulty making a utilitarian argument for the technocracy's existence.


Are you sure that's not just the Nephandic corruption that has been in the Order of Reason since it's founding? This is a thing in the setting that makes any claim about the responsibility of the Order of Reason/Technocracy in any real-world evil hard to ascertain.

...more details, please.

In addition to the Traditions, which are groups that are members of the Council of the Nine Mystic Traditions, and the Conventions that make up the Technocracy, MTAs also has groups called Crafts. Crafts are like unaligned Traditions, or more correctly, Traditions are Crafts aligned to the Nine Mystic Traditions. In the 2e era, White Wolf released a book full of Crafts (the Book of Crafts) that contained quite a lot of them. Among the Crafts in that book were the Sisters of Hippolyta and the Wu-Keng.

The Sisters of Hippolyta were a group of pagan feminists who could trace their roots back to ancient Greece. They were clearly inspired by utopian separatist feminism, because they were a female-only Craft of feminist mages big on total non-violence and living in communes. Their paradigm was based on the idea that women, being the ones who could give birth, naturally had a stronger connection to life-forces than men, and that magick was not metaphysical, but more of an intuitive thing. Each Craft had a small number of spells written up, and the Sister's were for gardening, healing, childbirth, more healing, escaping pursuit, and killing themselves rather than being captured. While written with the best intentions by a female feminist, they represented a lot of rather ugly ideas about man-woman relations, like how they stigmatized rape as being worse than death.

The Wu-Keng were a group descended from male Chinese mages who'd disguised themselves as women at one point. As punishment for this, they were cursed to forever wear these disguises and to bind their feet, and were locked into servitude to demons. They persist by kidnapping male babies and raising them into their religious order. This process involves raising them as girls, which due to how the book is written in total ignorance of actual transwomen, mean they end up genuinely believing they are women (the book keep referring to them as men or "women" though). The Wu-Keng are raised to seek out men in powerful positions and become those men's wives and lovers, which allow them wield power through those men in service of their Nephandic masters.

b) get a better paradigm, seriously girl, this is why the Traditions were losing the war with people with high-ranking Life wasting their skills like this.

Nitpick: the Sisters of Hippolyta are a Craft, not a Tradition. They also don't participate much in the Ascension War, and their tactic when the Technocracy comes to wipe them out is mass ritual suicide.
 
YMMV but the Wu-Keng seem really more awful than the Sisters. I could see a group with the paradigm of the Sisters existing (but very low in number and a very recent thing) while the Wu-Keng. I don't even know where they got the idea.
 
YMMV but the Wu-Keng seem really more awful than the Sisters. I could see a group with the paradigm of the Sisters existing (but very low in number and a very recent thing) while the Wu-Keng. I don't even know where they got the idea.

The Sisters are mostly just stupid. The Wu-Keng are far, far worse. As for their inspiration, it's pretty transparently M. Butterfly.
 
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We actually do have rules that while new souls are rare, all new souls naturally Awaken. It's only in future incarnations, broken and loaded down with sins and scars and failures, that you will fail to Awaken.

So yes, the natural state of humanity is Awakened and sleep is a fail state. It might not be your fault you failed to awaken - lots of things can darken a soul that have nothing to do with that persons decisions, but it is a collective failure.
Do you have a reference for this? If there's solid statement of this being a thing, that sounds interesting.
 
I can't help but laugh at the irony of the game with "Ascension" in it's name has little to no idea of what the thing is, nor presents any actual way to achieve it, while Awakening's been defined ever since Tome of the Mysteries, has at least one proven method for personal Ascension and several "maybe it works, maybe not".
 
Are you sure that's not just the Nephandic corruption that has been in the Order of Reason since it's founding? This is a thing in the setting that makes any claim about the responsibility of the Order of Reason/Technocracy in any real-world evil hard to ascertain.
I think a lot of the sins of modernity (imperialism, the White Man's Burden, pathologization and attempted elimination of alternate ways of being, eugenics etc.) fit pretty well as skeletons in the Technocracy's closet, both internally and thematically. They're the natural failure states of that well-intentioned optimistic arrogant idealism that is authoritarian vanguard progressivism.

Imperialism and the White Man's Burden was about breaking the power of the mages and god-kings and witch-doctors who lorded it over the people of Africa, Asia, and the Americas and held them back and spreading the Technocratic consensus and its benefits to the entire world. Eugenics was about taking the ancient consensus that blood will tell, long a prop of elitism and aristocracy, and turning it toward improving the condition of all of humanity. Medicalization of deviance was about turning things that were once considered sin/evil or holy states and turning them into curable diseases, thus simultaneously alleviating suffering and undermining Traditional paradigms (a man who hears voices isn't a shaman and a man who has sex with other men isn't an evil sinner, they're both sick and can be cured and live normal, happy, productive lives). The predictable suffering involved was assumed to be worth it for the better world so created.

Of course, that didn't work out as well as was hoped.
 
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Yes, but oMage. Ascension basically requires that anyway. This is kind of an inescapable problem with ascension scenarios in consensus reality; you cannot control global opinion without being kind of awful.

I don't really agree.

The technocracy decided that what they were doing was important enough to use wholesale manipulation of the population to achieve. There's no reason why you couldn't use something else, for instance, mass evangelism to achieve the same.

Even though many of the traditions are aristocratic in either theory (the Akashics) or practice (the Hermetics) their plans for ascension, which might limit them to being personal rather than mass (IE, certain people enter a training facility and gain enlightenment through it, eventually training themselves to ascension until everyone is an ascended soul) they still aren't as bad as the technocracy. Because those plans don't require direct genocide of the umbra to achieve.

Like, we've seen small scale ascension before, and the ascended haven't turned around and overthrown humanity or whatever. So the idea that small scale ascension is super dangerous doesn't have much of a root. Unless you remove most sleeper's avatars somehow, humanity is unlikely to vote yes to any plan that ends up with it being exterminated, thus anything species ending is going to be blocked by the consensus.

If I recall them correctly (there's four editions of MTAs I have to keep distinct!) 1e and 2e both state that the Technocracy is making a path to global Ascension - but it would be the Ascension of the lowest common denominator, accomplishing Global Ascension without allowing for people to be special or wonderful. (Like, if we're going to complain that the Technocracy are kind of fascist, I think it's entirely fair to point out that the Traditions are kind of Objectivist.)

Depends on how you play them I think. I've played a communist traditionalist before.

Edit: to expand on this, the traditions are only objectivist in that most of them are traditionalists who remain quite bound up with the idea of only teaching the special people how to awaken and ascend. This is also a tactical matter, because operating under the technocracy's watchful eye limits what you can do.

There's no reason why you can't have traditionalists who want to teach everyone their tricks. Like, for instance my Akashic in IXmage wants to teach everyone Akashic martial arts, and then have a fanonist/maoist martial arts revolution which will awaken them through purifying revolutionary violence. That's just as mass as anything the technocracy can do.

My Dilbert Cartoon remains in force. Ascension should not be about dumbing everyone down to the level of a sleeper and then calling that progress. It should be about granting humanity godlike power. At least the ItX plans to give us all godlike cybernetic shells mean you end up immortal.

Are you sure that's not just the Nephandic corruption that has been in the Order of Reason since it's founding? This is a thing in the setting that makes any claim about the responsibility of the Order of Reason/Technocracy in any real-world evil hard to ascertain.

The technocracy was founded in England with the blessings of Queen Victoria and the British Empire. I don't think you can get more direct an imperial project than that. They're also running around burning umbral realms and stuff. So their acts of genocide are ongoing, directly and indirectly.
 
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Depends on how you play them I think. I've played a communist traditionalist before.

And you could play the Technocracy as not fascist. The books still express a very disdainful view of some people (mages) not being allowed to be more special than others, and having to be bound by the rules of common people.

The technocracy was founded in England with the blessings of Queen Victoria and the British Empire. I don't think you can get more direct an imperial project than that. They're also running around burning umbral realms and stuff. So their acts of genocide are ongoing, directly and indirectly.

But is that actually the Technocracy's fault, or just the result of Nephandic corruption? Are you sure that imperialism as an invention wasn't actually a Nephandic plot to further the decay of the world?
 
And you could play the Technocracy as not fascist. The books still express a very disdainful view of some people (mages) not being allowed to be more special than others, and having to be bound by the rules of common people.

I don't really think the Technocracy is fascist to be honest. Fascism implies a very particular set of things that the technocracy does not have. If anything I'd say fascism is a paradox or nephandic backlash against the Technocracy. Basically turning mass politics against them.

That said, I would find the idea the technocracy is counter aristocratic a lot more compelling if they weren't a revolutionary vanguard. Oh sure, they talk about how they're doing this for the masses and trying to make everyone equal, but in practice, they're aristocratic as they come, a small cabal secretly controlling and profiting from the masses at every turn.

They're not Syndrome. They're the Masquerade from The Traitor Baru Cormorant.

But is that actually the Technocracy's fault, or just the result of Nephandic corruption? Are you sure that imperialism as an invention wasn't actually a Nephandic plot to further the decay of the world?

The Nephandi are not putting a gun to Control's head and telling them to send missions into the umbra to burn all their shit down. Nor, frankly, are they putting a gun to Control's head and making them push an ideology of extreme disbelief towards spiritual phenomena, which is also a long term act of aggression and genocide towards spirit realms.

"It's all the Nephandi's fault" is a pretty huge whitewash, especially given the Technocracy's founding principles. I'd also say it's a lot less interesting than the technocracy doing it cause they're imperialists.
 
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I write the following fully aware that @FBH has different views on the metaphysics of Consensual Reality, particularly vis a vis making things available for Sleepers.

That said, in the reading used by a number of people in this thread...

A strong Consensus, Technocratic or otherwise, offers more to the vast majority of people who will never be Mages than a weak or nearly non-existent one, where they aren't offered anything beyond Awaken or fuck off. That making a world like today, where ordinary people can casually reach into their pockets and perform Correspondence/Forces/Mind rotes the elites of the Order of Reason couldn't, where electricity, public sanitation, and industrial anything work, requires thought policing and other horrible shit is the moral crux of the line.

If you wanted a world where instead of electric dams you had solar accumulators that pulled essence from the noonday sun, you'd still have to put on your jackboots, they'd just be enchanted leather instead of power armour, because not putting the boot in means you're never going to get magic more sophisticated than the technology of the late Middle Ages outside of the pet projects of Mages. Whether the trade off is worthwhile, could be done better, or even necessary at all is the question asked of those on both sides of the Ascension War.

That lone mystics don't reach their ineffable higher plane of existence as often is so minor, affecting such a small subset of the already small awakened population, that it is utterly irrelevant.
 
The Nephandi are not putting a gun to Control's head and telling them to send missions into the umbra to burn all their shit down.

aren't a good number of those missions being run by off the books Void Engineers fighting against Threat Null?

you know, the Technocrats that were trapped in the Umbra during the Avatar Storm, and have been transformed a twisted super-Nephandi version of the normal conventions, with every one of these groups wanting to genocide all of the life on earth because they think that the people here are actually body snatching alien invaders?

(yes, that's right. they plan on attacking earth, because they think earth has already been invaded by a group that has done what they are now doing)
 
But is that actually the Technocracy's fault, or just the result of Nephandic corruption? Are you sure that imperialism as an invention wasn't actually a Nephandic plot to further the decay of the world?
"It's all the Nephandi's fault" is a pretty huge whitewash, especially given the Technocracy's founding principles. I'd also say it's a lot less interesting than the technocracy doing it cause they're imperialists.
I'm with FBH on this one: much as "the Technocracy is pretty awful but it also kind of brought you everything that makes your world less awful than that of the Middle Ages" is much more interesting than "fuck the Man," "all that bad stuff we associate with modernity was a predictable result of the way the Technocracy thinks" is much more interesting than "the Devil made them do it."
 
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Fundamentally, the problem is: without a global thought police, if you then Awaken everyone... what you will inevitably end up with, as people segregate based on ideology and some people outcompete others (because even if everyone starts at the same baseline, there will always people more talented/determined/lucky), is a few thousand micronation fiefdoms. The world ends up looking like something out of Snow Crash. Powerful Mages ruling cities of people who mostly agree with him, plus whoever was unlucky enough to be caught in a hostile paradigm when the local Consensus crystallized.

...Guess how many of those fiefdoms are going to be pleasant to live in, even assuming everyone is a Mage. Guess how much war and conflict there would be in such a world, when you can change the laws of physics by going down the street and people have moral opinions on what the laws of physics should be.
 
Fundamentally, the problem is: without a global thought police, if you then Awaken everyone... what you will inevitably end up with, as people segregate based on ideology and some people outcompete others (because even if everyone starts at the same baseline, there will always people more talented/determined/lucky), is a few thousand micronation fiefdoms. The world ends up looking like something out of Snow Crash. Powerful Mages ruling cities of people who mostly agree with him, plus whoever was unlucky enough to be caught in a hostile paradigm when the local Consensus crystallized.

...Guess how many of those fiefdoms are going to be pleasant to live in, even assuming everyone is a Mage. Guess how much war and conflict there would be in such a world, when you can change the laws of physics by going down the street and people have moral opinions on what the laws of physics should be.

As opposed to powerful technocratic mages ruling the world from the shadows?
 
... yes?

I would say more, but... I think "dystopian empire" vs. "Grim Darkness Eternal War" is a pretty easy choice?

Why would there be eternal war between everyone without the technocracy?

Even if there's lots of microstates, that doesn't necessarily mean there's going to be warfare all over the place, and there's really no reason things should disolve that far if one, or even several of the traditions triumph.
 
The Nephandi are not putting a gun to Control's head and telling them to send missions into the umbra to burn all their shit down. Nor, frankly, are they putting a gun to Control's head and making them push an ideology of extreme disbelief towards spiritual phenomena, which is also a long term act of aggression and genocide towards spirit realms.

"It's all the Nephandi's fault" is a pretty huge whitewash, especially given the Technocracy's founding principles. I'd also say it's a lot less interesting than the technocracy doing it cause they're imperialists.

Well, considering that the Technocracy's Inner Circle has been thoroughly infiltrated by the Nephandi, the only reason they aren't holding a gun to Control's head is because the Nephandi are Control, and the Nephandi have been running the Order of Reason/Technocracy for centuries. Yes, this is kind of stupid, but it's also 2e-era canon. We could do away with this because we don't like it, but then there's no particular reason to take the ridiculous levels of evil the Technocracy engages in in canon seriously either. @MJ12 Commando 's vision of the Technocracy, or an entirely crime-free Technocracy, is just as valid as a Nephandi-free evil Technocracy.
 
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