The American Experiment (Riot Quest)

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[][bill] The bill of rights should include
-[] Freedom of religion, speech, the press, to assemble, and to petition the government.
-[] The right to bear arms and form a militia.
-[] No soldier may be quartered in private homes without the permission of the owner.
-[] Right against unreasonable search and seizure.
-[] Right to due process, grand jury for criminal indictments, no double jeopardy, no self-incrimination, no seizure of private property without compensation.
-[] Right to a speedy and public trial, impartial jury, informed of criminal charges, to confront witnesses, to compel witnesses to appear in court, to assistance of counsel.
-[] Right of trial by jury.
-[] Right to no excessive bail or fines, no cruel or unusual punishments.
-[] Statement of there being more rights than listed here.
-[] Outlaw slavery and involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for a crime.
--[] Including as a punishment for a crime.
-[] Citizenship by birth, right to due process.
-[] Equal rights: guaranteeing public accommodation, non-legal disability, wage, employment, right to serve on a jury, and suffrage rights for adults 21 years or more regardless of race, color, sex, or creed, as well as designating election day as a state holiday.
-[] Right to food, clothes, healthcare, shelter, education, and secure retirement at the expense of society, not the individual; to a job; and to an adequate income.
-[] Right to association, allowing Worker Associations, unions, political organizations, etc. to freely join and split.
-[] The government is required to make documents in any language upon request.
[][constitution] The constitution may be modified with a majority vote by Congress.

no seizure of private property without compensation.

Hmm.

How about we reword that a bit.

-[] Citizenship by birth, right to due process.

Could we add citizenship by residence to the bill of right, if we're keeping a framework of citizenship? Personally I'd just get rid of the whole thing and guarantee rights to all residents though.
 
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Hmm.

How about we reword that a bit.
I personally think setting low estimations of what is appropriate compensation would work to make that acceptable, but sure.
-[] Right to due process, grand jury for criminal indictments, no double jeopardy, no self-incrimination, no seizure of personal property without compensation.
-[] Right to due process, grand jury for criminal indictments, no double jeopardy, no self-incrimination, no seizure of personal or private property without compensation.

Could we add citizenship by residence to the bill of right, if we're keeping a framework of citizenship? Personally I'd just get rid of the whole thing and guarantee rights to all residents though.
-[] Citizenship by residence, with minimum length of stay decided by legislation; right to due process.
-[] Citizenship by residence, after at least X amount of time; right to due process.
--[] 6 months of residence
--[] 1 year of residence
--[] 2 years of residence
--[] 3 years of residence
--[] 4 years of residence
--[] 5 years of residence
-[] Citizenship by residence, right to due process.
 
I personally think setting low estimations of what is appropriate compensation would work to make that acceptable, but sure.
-[] Right to due process, grand jury for criminal indictments, no double jeopardy, no self-incrimination, no seizure of personal property without compensation.
-[] Right to due process, grand jury for criminal indictments, no double jeopardy, no self-incrimination, no seizure of personal or private property without compensation.

Personal property is good.

-[] Citizenship by residence, with minimum length of stay decided by legislation; right to due process.
-[] Citizenship by residence, after at least X amount of time; right to due process.
--[] 6 months of residence
--[] 1 year of residence
--[] 2 years of residence
--[] 3 years of residence
--[] 4 years of residence
--[] 5 years of residence
-[] Citizenship by residence, right to due process.

Fine with the nonspecific options, I don't think the exact length has to be constitutionally mandated.
 
Could we add citizenship by residence to the bill of right, if we're keeping a framework of citizenship? Personally I'd just get rid of the whole thing and guarantee rights to all residents though.
You mean any resident is automatically a citizen? Would that include, say, a foreign ambassador? Or issues with other countries not allowing dual citizenship making someone not want to automatically get citizenship.

You can do a write-in saying there's no difference in rights between residents and citizens/abolishing citizenship as a concept.
 
Let's keep the bill of rights limited to what's truly important.

[][bill] The bill of rights should include
-[] The right to bear arms and form a militia. +1 constitutionalist, +1 anarchist.

There, a nice conservative libertarian bill of rights! :V
 
You mean any resident is automatically a citizen? Would that include, say, a foreign ambassador? Or issues with other countries not allowing dual citizenship making someone not want to automatically get citizenship.

You can do a write-in saying there's no difference in rights between residents and citizens/abolishing citizenship as a concept.

Residency clauses generally have carved out exemptions for diplomatic personnel. And yes it would be abolishing citizenship rather than automatically granting it.

Though I think granting citizenship on demand based on residency is an acceptable compromise, and probably makes it easier for our people to get by abroad so I think I'll settle for that.
 
How is the QM gonna determine what gets in, if the voting's by line?
The bill of rights is taken as a block.

Let's keep the bill of rights limited to what's truly important.

[][bill] The bill of rights should include
-[] The right to bear arms and form a militia. +1 constitutionalist, +1 anarchist.

There, a nice conservative libertarian bill of rights! :V
X0.22 voting modifier :V

(I'll add the other plans modifiers later since discussion is still happening)
 
Hmm.

How about we reword that a bit.



Could we add citizenship by residence to the bill of right, if we're keeping a framework of citizenship? Personally I'd just get rid of the whole thing and guarantee rights to all residents though.
Guaranteeing various rights to residents regardless of alienage is something the USA already did, and we've expanded suffrage to non-citizens already. All that remains is to extend the guarantees of all enumerated and unenumerated rights to all residents. Even given all that, however, citizenship remains a useful construct for assigning liabilities (for instance, to militia service and jury service; one wanting to avoid these obligations might remain a resident indefinitely, while one wanting to take part could take citizenship) and for guaranteeing the rights of Americans abroad. Statelessness is a bad status to have in a comprehensive state system.
 
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for instance, to militia service and jury service; one wanting to avoid these obligations might remain a resident indefinitely, while one wanting to take part could take citizenship

That sounds like a flaw rather than an upside. If you get the rights you get the duties. I'd rather we support a pathway for objecting to military service for all including citizens if that's a concern.

for guaranteeing the rights of Americans abroad

That one is definitely a point though.
 
That sounds like a flaw rather than an upside. If you get the rights you get the duties.
What rights are due in consideration for militia or jury service? If we believe that all people are due certain rights under all circumstances (and we demonstrably do), then these rights cannot be consideration for any duties. Do we believe that all people are liable for American militia or jury service? Surely not.
 
Personal property is good.
We've already determined what due process for state seizure of property must include (the government must show that workers were employed to work on it; if the government cannot due so, the property is exempt from seizure), a just compensation requirement on top of that is anywhere from unnecessary to counterproductive. Property protections should be generally weak.
 
What rights are due in consideration for militia or jury service? If we believe that all people are due certain rights under all circumstances (and we demonstrably do), then these rights cannot be consideration for any duties. Do we believe that all people are liable for American militia or jury service? Surely not.

Well, typically rights you wouldn't apply to people outside the US regardless of citizenship, like political participation, sounds fine matched with duties like jury duty, which is basically showing up to do the upkeep on the democracy machine in its judiciary incarnation. Though as I said, I do think you should be able to object to military service anyway.
 
Well, typically rights you wouldn't apply to people outside the US regardless of citizenship, like political participation, sounds fine matched with duties like jury duty, which is basically showing up to do the upkeep on the democracy machine in its judiciary incarnation. Though as I said, I do think you should be able to object to military service anyway.
Another way to think about this transactional model of rights and duties (as contrasted with a model of rights where they are inherent and do not require justification, which I favor) is in terms of appropriate remedies for failure to do one's duties. Is the appropriate remedy for failure to attend jury service denial of suffrage? That seems out of all proportion to me, considering the harm to the system is minimal -- more veniremen can always be found -- while the harm to you is extreme, amounting to exclusion from the political community, a sort of internal exile or ostracism. Rather, the appropriate remedy is more like a small fine, sufficient to cover the nominal cost of finding your replacement. Further, we don't deny suffrage based on very serious crimes like murder. Is failure to attend jury service a more serious social wrong that willful homicide?

If the appropriate remedy for derogation of a duty is not denial of that duty's corresponding rights, in what sense do they really correspond?
 
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Another way to think about this transactional model of rights and duties (as contrasted with a model of rights where they are inherent and do not require justification, which I favor) is in terms of appropriate remedies for failure to do one's duties. Is the appropriate remedy for failure to attend jury service denial of suffrage? That seems out of all proportion to me, considering the harm to the system is minimal -- more veniremen can always be found -- while the harm to you is extreme, amounting to exclusion from the political community, a sort of internal exile or ostracism. Rather, the appropriate remedy is more like a small fine, sufficient to cover the nominal cost of finding your replacement. Further, we don't deny suffrage based on very serious crimes like murder. Is failure to attend jury service a more serious social wrong that willful homicide?

If the appropriate remedy for derogation of a duty is not denial of that duty's corresponding rights, in what sense do they really correspond?

The problem is that suffrage is an ongoing right and jury duty is a punctual duty. I agree this makes any kind of matching very awkward. But of course, that's because you're trying to make up a transactional model I don't actually support. I don't think your participation in jury duty should be matched with a one to one access to the ballot box, or that access lost for missing jury duty. But I do think they operate in similar conceptual space of rights and duties, being both about participation in the democratic operation of society. Due to this similarity, I find the ability to opt in to one but out of the other entirely (as opposed to missing one day of jury duty or a vote) quite odd.

We should either have an expectation of both voting and jury duty based on residency, or both based on citizenship (which can in turn be demanded for residency). This way the criteria for participation in political life is consistent.
 
We've already determined what due process for state seizure of property must include (the government must show that workers were employed to work on it; if the government cannot due so, the property is exempt from seizure), a just compensation requirement on top of that is anywhere from unnecessary to counterproductive. Property protections should be generally weak.
I tried looking for it but I couldn't actually find what the due process for seizure of either personal or private property is. We decided that private property is legal so long as it is run as a cooperative if any additional workers are using it and I believe not adding a just compensation clause to that to give us a free hand is fine, but I believe personal property should be given the protection of just compensation. It is not unthinkable that there may be cases involving personal property where eminent domain is needed for the construction of public utilities and infrastructure given the existing laws passed mandating its use in several states.
 
I tried looking for it but I couldn't actually find what the due process for seizure of either personal or private property is. We decided that private property is legal so long as it is run as a cooperative if any additional workers are using it and I believe not adding a just compensation clause to that to give us a free hand is fine, but I believe personal property should be given the protection of just compensation. It is not unthinkable that there may be cases involving personal property where eminent domain is needed for the construction of public utilities and infrastructure given the existing laws passed mandating its use in several states.
The purpose of just compensation is twofold. First and most important, it is to put an expense on the government's balance sheet when it seizes property, to make it look like the sanctity of property is being respected; second, it is to in theory give the person whose property is seized an opportunity to buy a replacement (in practice the price of property is driven in large part by speculation and when property is slated for eminent domain its speculative value drops to zero while replacement properties' prices remain buoyed, so just compensation is manifestly inadequate to this purpose). We don't care about respecting or making it look like we respect the sanctity of property, we want property-holders to fear and tremble. And if, as seems likely, we are guaranteeing a "right to food, clothes, healthcare, shelter, education, and secure retirement at the expense of society, not the individual; to a job; and to an adequate income," then we have already provided for the replacement of all the value of seized property that is not sentimental. Just compensation would only amount to a windfall in money for the owners of property.
 
We should either have an expectation of both voting and jury duty based on residency, or both based on citizenship (which can in turn be demanded for residency). This way the criteria for participation in political life is consistent.
I still don't think this is coherent, but it doesn't matter. Assuming we're guaranteeing all enumerated rights to all residents, and I have to assume we are, right to sit on juries is among them in the option as drafted. "-[] Equal rights: guaranteeing public accommodation, non-legal disability, wage, employment, right to serve on a jury, and suffrage rights for adults 21 years or more regardless of race, color, sex, or creed, as well as designating election day as a state holiday. +1 revolutionary socialist, +1 social democrat" Only the question of who is obligated to serve remains up in the air.
 
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So just so we're being clear, the house and gun are considered personal property (cannot be taken) rather than private property (can be taken) right?
 
So just so we're being clear, the house and gun are considered personal property (cannot be taken) rather than private property (can be taken) right?
The personal/private distinction doesn't matter (and is stupid anyway, these aren't real theoretic terms). You have an enumerated right to shelter and armament at public expense regardless of if you own it.
 
The personal/private distinction doesn't matter (and is stupid anyway, these aren't real theoretic terms). You have an enumerated right to shelter and armament at public expense regardless of if you own it.
It would be all to easy for such to end up being narrowed to create a monopoly of force. After all, it's kinda dumb for the govt to arm groups dedicated to tear down the govt. So some sort of qualifier is inevitable, and with it, opportunity to erode the opposition via enforcing some form of monopoly over power. 😅
 
It would be all to easy for such to end up being narrowed to create a monopoly of force. After all, it's kinda dumb for the govt to arm groups dedicated to tear down the govt. So some sort of qualifier is inevitable, and with it, opportunity to erode the opposition via enforcing some form of monopoly over power. 😅
It could also be used to enforce inequity by masking it with equality if a particular provincial government decides it doesn't particularly like a certain group of people. Taking a disliked man's assault rifle and replacing it with a single shot zipgun, then giving other people around him Assault rifles. It is perfectly in line with the letter of the enumerated rights. As well, a provincial government can "expropriate" his home and forcibly displace him into a ramshackle lean-to while providing that house to a favored party official. This is perfectly in line with the letter of the enumerated rights.
 
[x][bill] The bill of rights should include
-[x] Freedom of religion, speech, the press, to assemble, and to petition the government. +1 constitutionalist, +0.5 revolutionary socialist
-[x] The right to bear arms and form a militia. +1 constitutionalist, +1 anarchist.
-[x] No soldier may be quartered in private homes without the permission of the owner. +0.5 constitutionalist.
-[x] Right against unreasonable search and seizure. +0.5 constitutionalist, +0.5 revolutionary socialist.
-[x] Right to due process, grand jury for criminal indictments, no double jeopardy, no self-incrimination, no seizure of private property without compensation. +0.5 constitutionalist.
--[x] with the exception of the private property part. -0.5 constitutionalist, +0.5 revolutionary socialist.
-[x] Right to a speedy and public trial, impartial jury, informed of criminal charges, to confront witnesses, to compel witnesses to appear in court, to assistance of counsel. +0.5 constitutionalist, +0.5 revolutionary socialist.
-[x] Right of trial by jury. +0.5 constitutionalist, +0.5 revolutionary socialist.
-[x] Right to no excessive bail or fines, no cruel or unusual punishments. +0.5 constitutionalist, +0.5 revolutionary socialist.
-[x] Statement of there being more rights than listed here. +0.5 constitutionalist, +0.5 revolutionary socialist.
-[x] Outlaw slavery and involuntary servitude, except as a punishment for a crime. +1 constitutionalist, +1 revolutionary socialist.
--[x] Including as a punishment for a crime. +2 minority, +1 anarchist, -1 statist
-[x] Citizenship by birth, right to due process. +0.5 constitutionalist, +0.5 revolutionary socialist, +0.5 minority
-[x] Equal rights: guaranteeing public accommodation, non-legal disability, wage, employment, right to serve on a jury, and suffrage rights for adults 21 years or more regardless of race, color, sex, or creed, as well as designating election day as a state holiday. +1 revolutionary socialist, +1 social democrat
-[x] Right to food, clothes, healthcare, shelter, education, and secure retirement at the expense of society, not the individual; to a job; and to an adequate income. +1 revolutionary socialist, -1 constitutionalist
-[x] Right to association, allowing Worker Associations, unions, political organizations, etc. to freely join and split. +1 anarchist
-[x] The government is required to make documents in any language upon request. +1 minority, -1 constitutionalist
-[x] Public schools are required to be taught in local languages as well as English. +1 minority, -1 constitutionalist.
-[X] Right to citizenship on demand by residents, right to due process. -1 constitutionalist, +0.5 revolutionary socialist, +1 minority
[x][constitution] The constitution may be modified with a ⅔ vote by Congress.
[x][constitution] An amendment may be proposed with a majority vote by Congress. Then it must be subject to ad-hoc mass consultations, involving many grassroots meetings to receive public suggestions. Then it must be ratified by referendum.

Same slate as before, with an additional approval vote for ratification of amendments by referendumand and an additional Bill of Rights plank to ease the process of obtaining citizenship for residents.
 
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