Shepard Quest Mk VI, Technological Revolution

Actually yes, yes you are. The difference in requirements for a rocket artillery system and metal storm's rapid fire system are notable.
Um, no that's not what I was saying at all. I was comparing an individual 155mm MAC gun to a two-dimensional array of MACs in a metal storm-like configuration. The later would be a relatively straightforward application of MAC technology, if complicated from an engineering perspective, and so IMO would only require the vehicle-scale weapon mods tech, maybe the advanced version if you wanted to fire more than a few dozen simultaneously. You'd probably also need medium armor tech to handle the recoil.

Here's my idea, subject of course to @Hoyr's approval/disapproval.

Individual Sagitta are 2,500 credits apiece, or at least that's the number I was using for calculating the Hydra's cost. We never priced out our Improved Piliums, but for simplicity I'll use the same 20,000 credits apiece number that I used initially. Let's say they travel at Mach 10, giving us 6 seconds of GARDIAN fire to wade through. According to @Hoyr a decent GARDIAN laser turret can take out 15,000 Sagitta-grade missiles in 4 seconds, so to be relatively certain of a kill we need 30,000 missiles, 5% of which (1,500) need to be our Improved Piliums to ensure a decent number both get through and do some actual damage.

From here, we wrap these missiles into cluster-missiles, call them Super-Hydras, with 10,000 Sagitta, 500 Improved Piliums, and a 1 million credit ablative "wrapper", such that each one costs 36 million credits and 150 Production. We need three of these Super-Hydras to have a good chance of getting through a good GARDIAN tower's defenses, costing a total of 108 million credits and 450 Production, or 270 million if some poor schmuck is buying retail.

So, that's our current cost to reliably blow up a GARDIAN tower that took 100 million credits to build. The question really is how much different techs can reduce that baseline cost for us. Invisible Missiles will probably buy our ablative "wrapper" 3-4 seconds of time before the tower twigs, meaning we'd only have to fire one Super-Hydra instead of three, and only cost us 400 RPs to develop.

This Metal Storm MAC idea, if I'm right about it being a weapon mod, should require Basic Weapon Mods, Advanced Weapon Mods, Medium Armor, and maybe Thermal Compensator, a total of 1200-2800 RPs in techs that we aren't really looking at normally, but after we pay to build the Metal Storm MAC siege tank we could basically take down GARDIAN towers for essentially free.
 
Um, no that's not what I was saying at all. I was comparing an individual 155mm MAC gun to a two-dimensional array of MACs in a metal storm-like configuration. The later would be a relatively straightforward application of MAC technology, if complicated from an engineering perspective, and so IMO would only require the vehicle-scale weapon mods tech, maybe the advanced version if you wanted to fire more than a few dozen simultaneously. You'd probably also need medium armor tech to handle the recoil.

... Okay, first, this is what's called 'a weapon with multiple barrels in the same turret.' Military science has pointed out this is a bad idea unless it's about hosing an area in fire. Second, a rotary autocannon array would be most likely be much more effective with the same number of barrels. Third, the recoil would do terrible things to the vehicle carrying the weapon (the Mako's main gun is a similar caliber MAC and has notable recoil to the several ton vehicle).
Fourth, you can get a similar power output in a much more effective manner by creating a heavier piece of armour with a single big gun.


As for assaulting a GARDIAN laser defense... We've got a SSTO-and-back capable IFV capable of transporting a squad of troops, supporting them in combat, and has a land speed of 'really fucking fast.'

If we want to break down a GARDIAN array it'd be much easier to drop off an assault team out of range (over the horizon works), booming them in at high speed NOE flight and letting them deal with the GARDIAN system at a range the GARDIAN is useless.

Our troops are sufficiently capable in training and equipment that there's basically nothing that can be done about that idea. Even just locking down the command system doesn't prevent a team from planting some high yield explosives at the emitter/barrel and mission killing it that way.
 
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... Okay, first, this is what's called 'a weapon with multiple barrels in the same turret.' Military science has pointed out this is a bad idea unless it's about hosing an area in fire. Second, a rotary autocannon array would be most likely be much more effective with the same number of barrels. Third, the recoil would do terrible things to the vehicle carrying the weapon (the Mako's main gun is a similar caliber MAC and has notable recoil to the several ton vehicle).
Fourth, you can get a similar power output in a much more effective manner by creating a heavier piece of armour with a single big gun.
The whole point of this exercise is to overwhelm a GARDIAN tower's ability to blow 3,750 objects out of the sky per second; attacking sequentially, even at a high rate of fire, just isn't going to cut it. So yeah, hosing an area with fire is exactly what we're trying to do here, which either means massive cluster-missiles or massively parallel MAC cannons.
 
According to @Hoyr a decent GARDIAN laser turret can take out 15,000 Sagitta-grade missiles in 4 seconds,

I have to say that this number does not seem right. 0.0002666(6 repeating ) seconds to take out a missile? Or rather, 2 ten thousandths of a second to take down a sagitta?

Maybe if the missiles lined up single file. But I have doubts that it could take the stresses of turning fast enough to aim for each of them. Beyond which, it also has to determine if a sagitta is mission killed or not, which should take at least a little bit more time than that.
 
3,750 objects out of the sky per second
No. No. Nononono. I refuse to believe this number. It just can't rotate that fast. A massive object can't reliably make 1 revolution per second from zero initial angular speed and don't just break. As long as we have our rockets fly at a few km/sec and have enough maneuverability to stay close to the ground until a few km, two of them will be able to get the tower if they come from sufficiently different angles - even if turret gets one it won't be able to target the other one.

Also no. Assuming every object is already targeted and is basically a shell - then you have to evaporate it in order to significantly stop it. A bunch of liquid metal isn't much better. If each weights around 100 grams we need about 500 kJ to evaporate it. It translates into roughly 1700-1900 GW of power. NO.
 
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No. No. Nononono. I refuse to believe this number. It just can't rotate that fast. A massive object can't reliably make 1 revolution per second from zero initial angular speed and don't just break. As long as we have our rockets fly at a few km/sec and have enough maneuverability to stay close to the ground until a few km, two of them will be able to get the tower if they come from sufficiently different angles - even if turret gets one it won't be able to target the other one.

If it's a laser (and it is), it's possible that it can hit a fair number of things coming from roughly the same direction entirely by moving various lenses, rather than the whole gun. That would make it... less ridiculous, if still nuts.
 
If it's a laser (and it is), it's possible that it can hit a fair number of things coming from roughly the same direction entirely by moving various lenses, rather than the whole gun. That would make it... less ridiculous, if still nuts.

Then the lens will break. Also I would assume that it's not out in the open, there's some protective cover with a small window in it.
 
Then the lens will break. Also I would assume that it's not out in the open, there's some protective cover with a small window in it.

Fair enough. I imagine mass effect fields doing their thing (reducing the mass of relevant componants) are also involved...

*shrugs*

There's a bunch of things that make it less unreasonable, but I'm quite willing to accept that even combined they may not be enough to achieve "actually reasonable".
 
@Hoyr, can we get some more information on existing GARDIAN systems in your head?

Specifically, I'm thinking about range and arcs of fire. Unfortunately, the information we have is pretty limited: the only ground based installation I can think of is Horizon, and those systems are cinematic vs effective.

As TheEyes has pointed out, if the tower can aim below the 0 degree line, the only escape is outranging it or hiding behind the horizon (3km per meter off the ground or so). Do arc reactor powered towers have the 20km range needed? Can they aim that low?

Okay so arc of fire:
File:Airbornelaserturret.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
See that? It's what I call a ball turret, it how you should aim any laser you can spread enough to bounce before focusing it with a lens/mirror. It's arc of fire is effectively "yes" the only limitation is the object it's mounted on (and friendlies/terrain). I assume GARDIAN lasers use those. I don't usually assume spinal FEL lasers use them.

Range is one of those complicated question and I have pretty charts to give me some basic data on this. Key factors are wavelength, aiming lens/mirror radius, power at lens/mirror, pulse time/time on target and target material.

For a 200MW, 0.5m radius lens laser firing at 700nm with 0.01 second pulses. (My default GARDIAN laser) the range is ~10km (Carbon)-30km (Iron) for easy single pulse kills on fighters and tougher missiles. The weapon is still effective to a 105km range vs iron (40-60km for carbon) and falls into low levels of effect (mm per pulse) out to 345 km for iron (150-175km for carbon). AB armor and tungsten fall between carbon and iron. Hope that helps.

Arc-reactor powered lasers... well I'll assuming you mean 5GW 400nm lasers? Yes they have 20km range, they even turn the air in their way into plasma at that power level (IIRC) which makes the laser far worse... to get better lasers working in air you need variable wavelength lasers to do some fancy tricks so that the laser can get (most) of it's power though. Also using lower wavelengths (aka vacuum frequencies) so that the plasmafication of the air actually helps.

In space (SPACE!) that doesn't matter so range goes way up.

We never priced out our Improved Piliums, but for simplicity I'll use the same 20,000 credits apiece number that I used initially.

Huh... don't know why its 20,000cr... should closer to 25,000cr/0.05pr as three reloads costs 75,000cr/0.15pr to make. But yeah MK II eh same price.

But whatever, close enough. Reload casings cost 5,000 each for reasons I guess.

According to @Hoyr a decent GARDIAN laser turret can take out 15,000 Sagitta-grade missiles in 4 seconds, so to be relatively certain of a kill we need 30,000 missiles, 5% of which (1,500) need to be our Improved Piliums to ensure a decent number both get through and do some actual damage.

Do note that was an upper bound based on material destruction. It'll probably be less than that.. by how much IDK. Though see note below.

So, that's our current cost to reliably blow up a GARDIAN tower that took 100 million credits to build.

I was thinking the 100m million is an anti-space craft laser at 200MW the one I was talking about was a weaker anti-ground laser at 20MW not sure if that should hold true, but that was the idea. Mind the cost scale isn't going to be linear, but it'll be cheaper for a 20MW. On the other hand the 200MW one has 10 times the destructive power.

I have to say that this number does not seem right. 0.0002666(6 repeating ) seconds to take out a missile? Or rather, 2 ten thousandths of a second to take down a sagitta?

Maybe if the missiles lined up single file. But I have doubts that it could take the stresses of turning fast enough to aim for each of them. Beyond which, it also has to determine if a sagitta is mission killed or not, which should take at least a little bit more time than that.

Firstly upper bound estimate people aka "most possible at all".

But it does seem damn fast doesn't it? So some thoughts

Well first off RL computer base calculation times are in the nanoseconds, and ME things are as good or better... the computer isn't having trouble doing this... in fact it may very well by trying to optimize the aiming order. Bonus points if it has a quantum combination optimizer.

Determining kills is easy, look at item size (plus any other details you have) and determine how much power you need, note the target after hitting it and while shooting at the next if it's not dead shoot at it again. Yes there is inefficiency, but it'll get ironed out pretty fast.

As for turning? The targets start pretty far away the turning after the first snap to is pretty minimal in distance though the torque for rapid movement can still be quite high. But Mass Effect! You can drop the mass of the rotating part of the turret, vastly dropping needed torque to the point were it's like magic. And the materials retain their same strength! Sadly I am not an engineer and my friend that does that sort of thing is kinda busy with finals too... so I have no one to consult on the fun of rotational stress... I do know that mass is part of at least one formula.

Okay, okay I'm a sucker for math... fine I'll try, can't be that hard people only speed 4 years learning this stuff right? At a lazy approximation it looks like my guesstimate shaft can rotate 0.5 degrees in ~0.00044s from full start to full stop. 20km away a 0.5 degree rotation is ~175m, way to much but meh. If the kill time is 0.0002666... then it can kill ~1418.6 missiles per second. Mass effect just makes it faster, a 100 fold reduction field (speed of light x10 field) can get the kill rate up to 3220 missiles per second. Hmm... dropping the target to target distance to 43m at 20km makes it ~2058 missiles without mass effect. Hint hint attacking from lots of angles is good.

Do note this massively ignores internals component stress tolerance... which would be a set of motors some lenses and a mirror. I don't feel like trying to figure that out without some one that knows more. Do recall that ME has inertial dampeners that can deal with a few million gees though; It's how FTL doesn't kill everyone.

And now I have a new set of formulas in my spreadsheet for this quest... oh boy. Please note that I barely know what I'm doing with the math and just took some basic formulas and plugged in numbers.

I'm not saying that those issue are totally gone, but they would seem to be fairly manageable. Of course the thing I pointed out was an upper bound (maybe even a little conservative I assumed Micro-missiles need to be ~1/4 melted to die after all), the idea was to find a a point they can do no better than, but worse is possible.

EDit: You know the less time I write these the more time I have to do finals and write the update...
 
I'm not concerned about the stresses involved in aiming, I'm concerned about the accuracy needed to hit something very small very far away. We're talking hitting things that are centimeters across at most, at distances of 10+ km. 1cm at 10km is 5.73 * 10 ^-5 degrees. And to get 3000+ targets per second, that means it has maybe 200-300 microseconds to aim. Keep in mind GARDIAN was designed before we made micromissiles a significant threat.

On the GARDIAN's favor, at least in terms of our "we need to kill the tower" problem, is that kinetic weapons can be deflected by partly vaporizing them with a laser. We're trying to hit something and it doesn't need to destroy the targets, it just needs to nudge them off course by turning some the projectiles into plasma.
 
@UberJJK stuff I did (hope nothing broke):

Eh it doesn't matter. I gave up on V8 a week or two ago and have been (slowly) working on a complete rebuild of the finance document (V9). Aside from some finishing touches it is basically done so I should have it uploaded either today or tomorrow.

Individual Sagitta are 2,500 credits apiece, or at least that's the number I was using for calculating the Hydra's cost.

What. That is way too much. I've been figuring on Sagitta being in the single digit credit range. Remember they are cheap enough that not only do we not both keeping track of them but they are used as bullets in handguns we sell.

No one is going to be using 2.5k bullets.
 
you have never played an MMO that used Ammo in it's ranged weapons did you?

Okay let me rephrase then; no one is going to be 2.5k in real life money per bullet. That would put two ten round magazines as been equal to your what your average person makes in a year.

Incidentally as an example for why something that high doesn't work; The Tiger.

Each Tiger comes equipped with six thousand Sagitta by default. At 2,500cr each that would put the ammunition at fifteen million credits while the Tiger only costs eight million to build.
 
Ordnance that expensive for man portable weapons only happen when it's either cheaper than whatever it is that the infantry is expected to face without support or it's just that good at a highly specialised job.

I can believe paying 2.5k for a bullet if it's guaranteed to kill any vehicle with a single pull of the trigger. But against an infantry scale target, no matter how though? Not happening.
 
[x] "...'Courting' wasn't the idea there. I'm not really the type for such things anyways. If you want to catch a movie, or whatever people like us would do, that might be fun though." *wait a moment* "You could see my side of it as... an invitation to try to see if it might work? Might have sort of been, unconciously.." *faraway look a moment, then shaking head* "Thing is, jumping into a relationship out of only obligation is, ah... kind of a bad thing in my culture?"
- If expression (or words) indicates it seems it might be obligation only: "...ah. It's fine. And thank you for asking, instead of just assuming." *a smile, then scientific curiosity taking over* "...how does Asari/Human pairings work, anyway? I'm sure you must have heard stories?"
- if expression (or words) indicaties it's more hoping Shepard is seeing everything before as courting: *grin* "Well, what kind of movies do you feel like right now?"


(Slightly risky, does open Shepard up emotionally for damage if Liara wants to go there, but if so, it is a VERY cheap way to find out that Liara would do that kind of thing if given the opportunity.)

Post scarcity convention?
[ ] Sure, but with a frigate or three this time. Civilian transports isn't a good idea. "Those ships? Oh, I have a few bodyguards along. That's allowed, right? Three of them just happens to be Captains." *shrugs*


In order of priority:
[ ] Some of the city shielding working would be better than none. (-200 million credits)
[ ] You could probably get those 5 GW test lasers working as ground batteries. (-300 million credits). Getting some people on that while kicking the shielding up and running sounds like a great idea. Ground batteries is a good idea anyway, and a crisis is a good way to get around any red tape objections. A bit of handshaking with the local governer afterwards and there is a very very good chance they will just... never get taken down.

[] Tank fighters. Get people in any and all tanks. They are spaceworthy, if needed.



On another note entirely, is there any reason not to get
[ ] Brain Shield [400]: Prothean technology presents terrifying possibilities for technological assault on sapient minds. Should begin developing countermeasures immediately. Initial iteration probably effective only against weaker non-hostile efforts. Considerable amounts of research required. (Counts as Biotech)

...as fast as possible? I mean, the reapers and collectors will show up, and sneaking in some reaper tech to passively convert everyone at the HQ sounds like an obvious thing they will do. IC, Revy knows the Extinguishers used mind control, she IS handling items and tech from the period, said items still work, and it's not exactly a long jump to guess that Extinguisher mind control items might be in between them somewhere. Seriously. Unless she really wants to become one of their puppets at some point - statistically speaking, it's just a question of how long until it happens.
 
On the GARDIAN's favor, at least in terms of our "we need to kill the tower" problem, is that kinetic weapons can be deflected by partly vaporizing them with a laser. We're trying to hit something and it doesn't need to destroy the targets, it just needs to nudge them off course by turning some the projectiles into plasma.

Once again, you need about 0.5 MJ to vaporize 100 gram object, so 20 MW guardian is limited to about 40/sec.
 
However, you don't need to vaporise it entirely. Just a small bit of it vaporising can make it miss.
I'm starting to feel like you guys are missing something. GARDIAN emplacements are usually to protect a large area, not the tower itself, so if you are going to make it miss, you are going to have to vaporise a lot of it, or at a much more significant range to make it miss something like a colony-town.

As such, with a MAC round, you will probably have to vaporise the whole thing to be an effective defence.
 
I'm not concerned about the stresses involved in aiming, I'm concerned about the accuracy needed to hit something very small very far away. We're talking hitting things that are centimeters across at most, at distances of 10+ km. 1cm at 10km is 5.73 * 10 ^-5 degrees.

I had the rotating section of the turret have a diameter of 1.2m thus that's an accuracy of 600 nanometers. Current angular encoders can do 5nm apparently. So actually do able. Lots of fancy high maintenance equipment though.

And to get 3000+ targets per second, that means it has maybe 200-300 microseconds to aim.

As addressed be fore that's a pretty long time for a good computer and doable for a mass effect assisted rotater.

Keep in mind GARDIAN was designed before we made micromissiles a significant threat.

A good point, but at the same time the GARDIAN is meant to pin point weak points on fighters while they are a bit larger, it's still meant to have very high precision and accuracy.

But older system may very well not have been designed with that in mind.

What. That is way too much. I've been figuring on Sagitta being in the single digit credit range. Remember they are cheap enough that not only do we not both keeping track of them but they are used as bullets in handguns we sell.

No one is going to be using 2.5k bullets.

Lets say they cost 10cr or so and maybe 3e-5 production should it ever matter? The do use a micro-repulsor IIRC.

Makes Hydras cheaper at 1,760,000cr/7pr?

Edit: Oh and officially set Plums to 25,000cr/0.05pr. Even if the ratio offends me.

Sound good?

IC, Revy knows the Extinguishers used mind control

Wait... when did Revy learn that? :confused: Don't recall that being learned. Mordin just though a piece of tech that could access you brian via touch was creepy. Asari at least have the safety that they feel everything the person the meld with does the same way they do.
 
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Lets say they cost 10cr or so and maybe 3e-5 production should it ever matter? The do use a micro-repulsor IIRC.
Eh, looking at actual bullet prices, some even hit $5 a bullet. Not the normal stuff, which is almost all under a dollar, but still.

Probably 15 credits a round? Explosives, while not expensive, probably still add to it.
 
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