Amberion
Mighty #9
I propose to treat them like equals, not like servants. That's all.
Shepard Quest Mk V, Base of Operations (ME/MCU)
- Thread starter Esbilon
- Start date
Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
What if the AI wants to be considered a servant?
Amberion
Mighty #9
Then I'd offer it a maid costume and some cat ears and tail and tell it to knock itself out.
Truthfully I don't really see an IC reason for Revy atleast to start massproducing AIs. I can easily see her wanting to turn Cortana into an AI for personal reasons (and because obviously she needs her "Jarvis" analogue 
), but creating AIs in large numbers? Given all the ethical and legal issues, not sure why Revy would want to start creating AIs enmasse?
), but creating AIs in large numbers? Given all the ethical and legal issues, not sure why Revy would want to start creating AIs enmasse?
Carrnage
Human
- Location
- New Zealand
That a great way to get an AI attempting to render itself unconscious.
Really why do you assume that AIs share any values with organic life? They wouldnt even have self preservation unless it was artificially added.
Since AI has to be designed, would it not essentially have values based on the designer? I mean would it not be possible to design an AI that thinks, feels and acts exactly like an organic human? Granted, not sure why anyone would design an AI that is no different than a human and has no other capabilities, but its possible is it not?
But basically the point is, the AI would share values with organic life, if thats what the designers had implemented? And it would share no values with organic life, if again, the designers had not included any.
Seems to me that AIs can basically go from an AI that thinks, feels and acts just like a human, to something so utterly alien that humans cannot even begin to comprehend it.
Essentially true. Maybe you could argue that the motivations of the creator matter in this case? I mean say one designer might view the AI like a child or a friend. And another might view it as a slave. Both would implant values to the AI that would make it equally happy in both cases, but from human perspective the first option would seem more moral.
Amberion
Mighty #9
Because this is Mass Effect, and we have excellent examples in EDI, Legion, hell even Sovereign and Harbinger are incredibly human-like(with the whole diabolical identifiable evil schtick going).
- Location
- Budapest, Hungary
It is because most writers can't write an AI character properly.
Which is understandable, since it is hard to write inhuman characters.
Of course if the AI was intentionally designed to be human-like, it is justifiable.
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Amberion
Mighty #9
Well, if we develop AI, they're probably going to be human-like(no offense Esbilon but I doubt you're interested in breaking literary ground in making the first truly inhuman truly alien AI intelligence.)
Chargone
Invisable operator
- Location
- New Zealand
Which makes me wonder about one who set out to perform a task, figured an AI was the best way to do said task, and then created a mind as well suited to it as possible. Is the result a slave, a child, or simply another creature filling it's niche in the world?
Friend seems like the best angle to come at it from. A creator is not the same as a parent, for all the similarities. Though much depends on the nature of AI development. It seems far easier to be a friend to a non-human than to consider them family (at least on a parent/child level), and the logic of slavery is generally... damaging... to both society and the individual. (And not just the slaves.)
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I've mentioned before that AIs are probably going to be limited to human-level intelligence and rough personality. Not because there are no precedents I can lean on for writing inhuman ones, but rather because a true artificial superintelligence would make everyone else irrelevant.
Guys there's an easy solution to the moral question of assigning the AI a task: the learning algorithms used by VI.
You create an AI with some sort of randomly selected/generated seed for a personality to grow out of. Then you place the AI in a sand box environment filled with basic data on all known subjects, moral thought exercises, philosophical tracts and even entertainment media. You then let the AI play around in that sand box while interacting with it as it "grows up" to find out which task this AI is suited for.
You create an AI with some sort of randomly selected/generated seed for a personality to grow out of. Then you place the AI in a sand box environment filled with basic data on all known subjects, moral thought exercises, philosophical tracts and even entertainment media. You then let the AI play around in that sand box while interacting with it as it "grows up" to find out which task this AI is suited for.
It's taken a couple days but I have tentatively finished the Revised Tech Tree.
It probably has errors I haven't noticed, with the most probable been tech requirements, but I'm pretty sure it has everything and should be ~90% correct.
As I mentioned I would back when I started this here's some calcs and stuff I've done for what Frigate we could build next turn, if we actually had a Shipyard and where planning on building Frigates this early...
Fair Warning - It's several days worth of math and my ramblings so don't expect things to flow logically from one topic to the next.
It probably has errors I haven't noticed, with the most probable been tech requirements, but I'm pretty sure it has everything and should be ~90% correct.
As I mentioned I would back when I started this here's some calcs and stuff I've done for what Frigate we could build next turn, if we actually had a Shipyard and where planning on building Frigates this early...
Fair Warning - It's several days worth of math and my ramblings so don't expect things to flow logically from one topic to the next.
Arleigh Burke-Class Destroyer:
Length = 155m
Width = 20m
Height = 9.3m
Mass = 9,200,000kg
Volume = 155*20*9.3 = 28,830m^3
L/W Ratio = 7.75
L/H Ratio = 16.66
Paragon Industries Frigate
Length = 100m
Width = 12.9m
Height = 6m
Volume = 100*12.9*6 = 7,740m^3
Surface Area = 2*100*12.9 + 2*12.9*6 + 2*100*6 = 2,580 + 154.8 + 1,200 = 3,934.8m^2
Assuming 25% of the ships hull is covered in radiator strips and that thanks to Paragon Industries' Advanced Materials they can reach a temperature of 2,500 C compared to the normal 2,000 C.
Thermal Radiation = 0.00000005670373 * (3,934.8 * 25%) * 2773.15^4
Thermal Radiation = 0.00000005670373 * 983.7 * 59141651118315.05100625
Thermal Radiation = 3,298,889,316 Watts
Thermal Radiation = 3,299MW
Now this does assume that the radiators are blackbodies but I have no idea how they would compare to the ideal blackbody radiators so I'm just going to assume they are for convenience sake.
As detailed earlier a PI Frigate using current tech is 88% efficient so given the maximum sustainable output of heat we can work out the total reactor power.
Power = 3,298,889,316 / 12%
Power = 27,490,744,300W
Power = 27,491MW
That's 8,247MW each for Weapons, Engines and Eezo and 2,749MW for all the other systems.
For comparison A Los Angeles-Class submarine has a peak power output of 190MW, the Hoover Dam has a peak power output of 2,074MW, and the World's Largest Nuclear Power Plant has a peak power of 8,210MW
Meanwhile a similarly sized regular Alliance ship would have a thermal radiation of:
Thermal Radiation = 0.00000005670373 * (3,934.8 * 25%) * 2273.15^4
Thermal Radiation = 0.00000005670373 * 983.7 * 26700068717603.30100625
Thermal Radiation = 1,489,315,394W
Thermal Radiation = 1,489MW
Now while earlier I calculated the thermal efficiency of an Alliance ship at 67.44% but that's during combat. Outside of combat it has an efficiency of 68.85%. From that we can determine it would have a reactor of:
Power = 1,489,315,394 / 31.15%
Power = 4,781,108,809W
Power = 4,781MW
So thanks to it's better materials and more efficient engines and reactor not only does the PI Frigate have an effectively unlimited combat endurance it's also 5.75 times more powerful (in the literal sense).
Thanks to this increased power outside of combat its engines 5.75x more powerful and almost certainly at least that much faster. Given the decrease in mass thanks to the Arc Reactor and Repulsors been smaller then their equivalents and lower mass armour with the same protection the PI Frigate would, right now, almost certainly be six to seven times faster then an equivalent Alliance frigate. More if you factor in that the Eezo core would also be receiving almost six times more power.
And while this increase in speed sounds nice what makes it terrifying, for the Aliens anyway, is what that really means for the Alliance. The Reapers can go 30LY/Day and with the Citadel Races half that they can do 15LY/Day or 0.625LY/Hr.
With an Average of 50 hours of FTL before a discharge is needed they can cover 31.25LY. Of course they can actually go that far since they need to ensure they are within range of a discharge location when their time runs out. With the increased engine power and core power I figure our Frigate could squeeze out at least 5x the sustained speed, 3.125LY/Hr. That gives it a range of 156.25LY.
To put that into perspective there are five stars within 31LY of Earth with confirmed planets but (about) sixty within 156LY. I can think of numerous advantages to been able to lay claim to solar systems no one else can reach for the Alliance. Everything from secure military/research bases to previously untouched reserves of Eezo to safer garden worlds.
Then there are the weapons. Now we know that the size of accelerators on ME ships are in part due to recoil ripping the weapon from it's mount however we can still put this additional power to use.
Normally a Frigate like this would have one main gun ~80m long. Instead we could mount 4x 80m guns, two on each side Defiant Style, each of which would have 1443MW compared to the standard 1004MW. This 40% increase in power can likely be dealt with thanks to our Advanced Materials allowing us to build better connections thus increasing the recoil it can take.
Length = 155m
Width = 20m
Height = 9.3m
Mass = 9,200,000kg
Volume = 155*20*9.3 = 28,830m^3
L/W Ratio = 7.75
L/H Ratio = 16.66
Paragon Industries Frigate
Length = 100m
Width = 12.9m
Height = 6m
Volume = 100*12.9*6 = 7,740m^3
Surface Area = 2*100*12.9 + 2*12.9*6 + 2*100*6 = 2,580 + 154.8 + 1,200 = 3,934.8m^2
Assuming 25% of the ships hull is covered in radiator strips and that thanks to Paragon Industries' Advanced Materials they can reach a temperature of 2,500 C compared to the normal 2,000 C.
Thermal Radiation = 0.00000005670373 * (3,934.8 * 25%) * 2773.15^4
Thermal Radiation = 0.00000005670373 * 983.7 * 59141651118315.05100625
Thermal Radiation = 3,298,889,316 Watts
Thermal Radiation = 3,299MW
Now this does assume that the radiators are blackbodies but I have no idea how they would compare to the ideal blackbody radiators so I'm just going to assume they are for convenience sake.
As detailed earlier a PI Frigate using current tech is 88% efficient so given the maximum sustainable output of heat we can work out the total reactor power.
Power = 3,298,889,316 / 12%
Power = 27,490,744,300W
Power = 27,491MW
That's 8,247MW each for Weapons, Engines and Eezo and 2,749MW for all the other systems.
For comparison A Los Angeles-Class submarine has a peak power output of 190MW, the Hoover Dam has a peak power output of 2,074MW, and the World's Largest Nuclear Power Plant has a peak power of 8,210MW
Meanwhile a similarly sized regular Alliance ship would have a thermal radiation of:
Thermal Radiation = 0.00000005670373 * (3,934.8 * 25%) * 2273.15^4
Thermal Radiation = 0.00000005670373 * 983.7 * 26700068717603.30100625
Thermal Radiation = 1,489,315,394W
Thermal Radiation = 1,489MW
Now while earlier I calculated the thermal efficiency of an Alliance ship at 67.44% but that's during combat. Outside of combat it has an efficiency of 68.85%. From that we can determine it would have a reactor of:
Power = 1,489,315,394 / 31.15%
Power = 4,781,108,809W
Power = 4,781MW
So thanks to it's better materials and more efficient engines and reactor not only does the PI Frigate have an effectively unlimited combat endurance it's also 5.75 times more powerful (in the literal sense).
Thanks to this increased power outside of combat its engines 5.75x more powerful and almost certainly at least that much faster. Given the decrease in mass thanks to the Arc Reactor and Repulsors been smaller then their equivalents and lower mass armour with the same protection the PI Frigate would, right now, almost certainly be six to seven times faster then an equivalent Alliance frigate. More if you factor in that the Eezo core would also be receiving almost six times more power.
And while this increase in speed sounds nice what makes it terrifying, for the Aliens anyway, is what that really means for the Alliance. The Reapers can go 30LY/Day and with the Citadel Races half that they can do 15LY/Day or 0.625LY/Hr.
With an Average of 50 hours of FTL before a discharge is needed they can cover 31.25LY. Of course they can actually go that far since they need to ensure they are within range of a discharge location when their time runs out. With the increased engine power and core power I figure our Frigate could squeeze out at least 5x the sustained speed, 3.125LY/Hr. That gives it a range of 156.25LY.
To put that into perspective there are five stars within 31LY of Earth with confirmed planets but (about) sixty within 156LY. I can think of numerous advantages to been able to lay claim to solar systems no one else can reach for the Alliance. Everything from secure military/research bases to previously untouched reserves of Eezo to safer garden worlds.
Then there are the weapons. Now we know that the size of accelerators on ME ships are in part due to recoil ripping the weapon from it's mount however we can still put this additional power to use.
Normally a Frigate like this would have one main gun ~80m long. Instead we could mount 4x 80m guns, two on each side Defiant Style, each of which would have 1443MW compared to the standard 1004MW. This 40% increase in power can likely be dealt with thanks to our Advanced Materials allowing us to build better connections thus increasing the recoil it can take.
Van Ropen
Angry, angry about elves.
So much this.
Doesn't Legion flat out say this at one point? Shepard (or a team member?) talks about using the virus being the equivalent of brainwashing the Geth, and Legion just flat out shuts them down saying they don't view it that way and he should stop anthropomorphizing them?
As for programming them with desires - how is that any different than millions of years of evolution and genetic inheritance backed by extensive teaching from parents/school/society shaping OUR subconscious desires?
I think Legion states this if you take one of the renegade-style options during that mission.
Might be that its viewed differently due to the fact that the "programming" is in this case being done by intelligent species, rather than evolution which is not really intelligent and aware as such. It brings up potential problems such as whether or not its ethical to program AI with desires that compel it to do nothing but serve and obey its creators.
Heck, you could argue that "human programming" and desires have serious flaws due to the countless mental issues and diseases that we can develop. However who do you blame for that? I mean blaming evolution or holding it accountable for errors in human desires and human programming issues is a bit silly, since you cannot really blame a natural force.
You can however blame a specific human(s), who create a sentient being and mess it up.
Van Ropen
Angry, angry about elves.
Actually, it is the paragon choice.
...why no, Bioware can't into consistency.
Sure, there is a difference - that is why they are artificial in the first place. But practically, it amounts to the same thing - we come preloaded with desires, which we might consider flawed. In that AI actually have an advantage, because they can modify their own programming (EDI does it all the time once she is unshackled). I'm not saying we should create AI that do nothing but serve and then shackle them all - just that creating an AI that likes analyzing flight data, then offering it a job analyzing flight data isn't quite the same as slavery in the organic sense.
Nope!
Its the bottom option (which are traditionally renegade), and saying it gives you two renegade points.
I think using the virus itself is paragon though, if thats what you meant?
True enough. Ofcourse I get the impression that these kinds of tasks in ME-universe can actually be handled by VIs. What kind of tasks in ME do you need a true AI for anyway?
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- Location
- Budapest, Hungary
Nope!
Its the bottom option (which are traditionally renegade), and saying it gives you two renegade points.
I think using the virus itself is paragon though, if thats what you meant?
True enough. Ofcourse I get the impression that these kinds of tasks in ME-universe can actually be handled by VIs. What kind of tasks in ME do you need a true AI for anyway?
ME VI-s are wuold heve been called low grade AI-is in other settings.
Basically smart VI without limiters=AI
Van Ropen
Angry, angry about elves.
Nope!
Its the bottom option (which are traditionally renegade), and saying it gives you two renegade points.
I think using the virus itself is paragon though, if thats what you meant?
True enough. Ofcourse I get the impression that these kinds of tasks in ME-universe can actually be handled by VIs. What kind of tasks in ME do you need a true AI for anyway?
I meant actually using the virus, yeah...come on Bioware, can you not remain consistent across the course of a single mission?
Mass Effect VIs can do damn near everything - the difference seems to be in self-improvement and initiative. AI can modify themselves, and thus probably improve at tasks to a far greater degree than VI. We also only see VI acting in direct response to things, whereas AI seem to have the freedom to delegate their time - an AI has freedom of action I guess you could say.
For most tasks, a sufficiently complex VI/group of VIs is more than sufficient - people seem to want true AI for the improved efficiency and the ability to act without supervision.
Amberion
Mighty #9
So there's the question: how many people rewrote the Geth in that mission?
*raises hand*
Like Legion said, the choice is to rewrite them, or kill them all. Which is interesting because in ME1, Shepard killed a LOT of Geth, and since the (morally repugnant?) option to rewrite them was never present, we had no problem killing them in droves. Suddenly, because we have the option to 'make them like us', they become more 'real', less computer game cardboard cutouts and more like actual people. It certainly made me think a little bit about the ethics of killing, even people who are trying to kill you. Sometimes when playing video games we become so used to the casual violence that the reality of what we are doing in these games doesn't quite register until you have the option to do something else.
*raises hand*
Like Legion said, the choice is to rewrite them, or kill them all. Which is interesting because in ME1, Shepard killed a LOT of Geth, and since the (morally repugnant?) option to rewrite them was never present, we had no problem killing them in droves. Suddenly, because we have the option to 'make them like us', they become more 'real', less computer game cardboard cutouts and more like actual people. It certainly made me think a little bit about the ethics of killing, even people who are trying to kill you. Sometimes when playing video games we become so used to the casual violence that the reality of what we are doing in these games doesn't quite register until you have the option to do something else.