It really strongly depends on how the static charge accumulation works. The most likely situation is that the core accumulates charged particles it's bombarded with jntil a critical quantity is reached. It can be dealtwith. My proposal was uskng several cores, and bombarding some of the cores with opposite charged particles, while using the others tondrive the ship, then cycling. This MIGHT be what the multi-core tech is, I'm not sure.
Shepard Quest Mk V, Base of Operations (ME/MCU)
- Thread starter Esbilon
- Start date
Durabys
Miaow! Break the Chains!
- Location
- the land of the Boii
- Pronouns
- He/Him
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Emizaquel
What is a self?
yep, for the most part. from what I understand the static build up is negatively charged in nature which could have us use the energy in two ways depending on hoe ME physics works, if you can''t channel the energy back into the ME core then you could just use said energy to power the ship's electronics/other electrically powered systems/use them as a form of reaction mass.
anyways won't e back for a few hours bye!
I thought it was positive charges that built up in the Core? Something about passing a negative charge through it causes mass to lighten causes positive charge build up because they get a higher amount of 'negative charge' out of a drive core either in the form of actual electricity or drak energy....
The main reason why they don't use stuff like capacitors to 'drain' the charge is simple: The best way to store electricity in their world is to use eezo, so if you was going to use eezo as a capacitor to boost your drive cores ability to keep you at FTL, you might as well put that eezo in your drive core.
The general rule is 'bigger the core, the more distance you get out of it'.
The basic rule of thumb we're using is that it's the Mass Effect field around the Eezo Core that traps the charges, while it's active discharging can't happen.
That's why we're working on a multi core research project to alternate between cores to allow one to be discharged while the other keeps the ship in FTL and to do so before it gets to the dangerous charge levels that would flash-fry capacitor and battery banks. The power is then run from the capacitors to supplement power the other ME Core, other systems (such as the repulsors) or just discharged traditionally.
It also allows the bring up of both cores together for an emergency speed that requires a traditional discharge at the end.
That's why we're working on a multi core research project to alternate between cores to allow one to be discharged while the other keeps the ship in FTL and to do so before it gets to the dangerous charge levels that would flash-fry capacitor and battery banks. The power is then run from the capacitors to supplement power the other ME Core, other systems (such as the repulsors) or just discharged traditionally.
It also allows the bring up of both cores together for an emergency speed that requires a traditional discharge at the end.
Emizaquel
What is a self?
That was the multi core project? I thought it was a series of cores specially managed to allow less eezo to be used to manipulate the ship thus allowing for far larger ships...
Emizaquel
What is a self?
I highly doubt that they use eezo for their capacitors that's just silly. the second bit is that since a negative current (according to the ME wiki it's a current which confuses the hell out of me) you should be able to draw it out and use it for other things around he ship.
Actually they do/don't, it's basically a super capacitor, super conductor and mass manipulation material rolled into one, they even use it for medicine.
So yeah, it's likely that considering that eezo actually seems to be cheaper than carbon nanotubes (the fact that no-one has dreadnaughts covered in the stuff), it's doubtful that they use carbon based tech either, considering that the Normandy uses lithium heat sinks when carbon based ones have a higher heat limit.
Element Zero's ability seems to rely on what form it takes, 'dust' form seems to be used in medicine, while 'gels' are used as superconductors and a solid sphere is used for FTL drives and mass reduction tech in guns and machines.
They don't actually use it as a super-capacitor in their ships because they are already using it as an FTL drive. Like I said: The bigger the core, the more charge it can hold before frying everyone and everything - they don't see any point in having a separate system for it at all.
And here's the wiki about the build up: http://masseffect.wikia.com/wiki/Codex/Ships_and_Vehicles#FTL_Drive:_Drive_Charge
As positive or negative electric current is passed through an FTL drive core, it acquires a static electrical charge. Drives can be operated an average of 50 hours before they reach charge saturation. This changes proportionally to the magnitude of mass reduction; a heavier or faster ship reaches saturation more quickly.
If the charge is allowed to build, the core will discharge into the hull of a ship. All ungrounded crew members are fried to a crisp, all electronic system are burned out, and metal bulkheads may be melted and fused together.
The strangest thing about the drive core is that the strength of the ships kinetic barriers seems to be based on the size of the drive core....the codex states that SR-2 can handle twice as many shield emitters thanks to both it's enlarged hull and over-sized drive core, along with a codex about an Asari crusier that has dreadnaught-class kinetic barriers thanks to a 'mistake' in the repair/retrofit managment which meant that it got given a dreadnaught scale drive core...
Maybe they just shunt the extra 'dark energy' the cores can make into the KB system in order to generate stronger shields?
That really won't work for combat ships....according to the codex it takes days/weeks for a ship to dump it's charge into a weak electromagnetic field whether it was a moon or a gas giant, also you run the risk of making your ship part of a circuit, anything conductive that touches your ship after you do that would get all of the charge your ship was carrying at that moment...
.....
It might be possible to use electromagnetic based shields to do that though....stop and siphon off the charge into the actual shield grid itself (not the fake magnetosphere that now surrounds your ship...)...it might 'jump' from the shield system into the magnetic field that surrounds your ship and with any luck, you might be able to discharge it that way...
Not sure if it will fry everything close by thanks to a very good impression of an EMP weapon...
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Van Ropen
Angry, angry about elves.
I'm pretty sure a series of smaller cores would actually be less efficient than a single larger one because "fucking space magic, lol".
Even if not, why would splitting the total eezo up allow for a bigger ship? The amount is the same.
Van Ropen
Angry, angry about elves.
But isn't the overall mass within the connected field the same? That's what actually requires more eezo.
Even so, don't we see non-spherical fields in-game? I mean, a lift field from the first game is a single mass effect field and it isn't manifested as a sphere.
- Location
- Dual citizen of SV&SB
Never said that it should work for this, just that it was the idea behind it
Emizaquel
What is a self?
the assumption here is that in things like the FTL core the FTL bubble expends out until a specific distance from the core, a cylindrical core allows for an ovoid field however by using several cores working in tandem you can spread the ME field throughout the ship more efficiently, using up both less power and eezo. this then allows the ship to be larger since the main limiting factor is - according to cannon - the amount of Eezo they have.
Off the top of my head, the only spherical mass effect fields we wee are ones designed to affect an area, rather than a specific object. Singularities, area shields, that sort of thing
Van Ropen
Angry, angry about elves.
What makes you think the area matters? It's the mass effected by the field which drives eezo cost up.
At best it uses less power, which we couldn't care less about. Assuming of course that fields can't be shaped, which I'm pretty sure isn't true.
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I think it's more that they use eezo to generate dark energy, which they then mold into a mass effect field...
It's just easier to generate an mass effect field around eezo than it is to move the dark energy around then generate the field.
The bigger/denser field you need, the more eezo you need due to increased dark energy demand.
If this is true, then it explains how the same amount of eezo in a toothbrush can be used in a pistol...according to ME3, as you raid C-Sec when Cerberus invades.
Van Ropen
Angry, angry about elves.
Or that toothbrush was never a toothbrush, but modified to have enough eezo for a pistol in it. They could have easily smuggled in multiple toothbrushes too.
Well, considering that Shepard was able to use a factory standard one to break into a top of the line military starship, they've probably got a fair amount of eezo in them.
I've had a bug in my brain about AI for awhile now (have you been able to tell?), and with the recent discussions about new additions to the tech tree, I've been thinking of:
Proposed Artificial Intelligence Rules
Narratively, there are lots of different ways to go with AIs, as they are essentially a whole new race, or set of races, of NPCs. Mechanically, most of our actual game mechanics centers around research and production, so these rules will cover how AIs interact with those areas.
AIs, when used in research, would be attached to specific research teams (Revy, obviously, can have her very own) and provide extra dice to the research roll, to represent their unique insights. To start with, multiple research teams will be needed to support a single AI, but this ratio can be lowered as time goes on. AIs used in manufacturing would be attached to a factory and lower quarterly upkeep costs, and may provide bonuses or penalties to production capacity.
Traits: as AIs age and gain experience, they may gain positive and negative Traits. These Traits can provide bonuses or penalties to that AI: raising or lowering their research roll, the number of research teams needed to support that AI, etc. Every quarter you roll a d100 for each AI: on a 99-100 the AI develops a beneficial Trait (determined by GM); on a 01-02 the AI develops a non-beneficial Trait. Examples:
Smart: +5 to research rolls
Industrious: Factory run by this AI produces 5% more production units per quarter
Dependent: Requires 1 more research team to maintain that AI per quarter
Error-prone: AI requires 10,000 more credits of maintenance per quarter to keep running.
AI Traits will initially be hidden from us plebs (but see "Logic Probes" below)
Revised Tech Tree (replaces the three-member tree we had previously)
AI License Preparation
Prerequisite(s): None
Cost: 800
Benefit: Revy learns all the political, economic, and scientific barriers to working with AIs in Alliance and Citadel space, as well as reviewing the considerable research that has already been done in this field. Obviously this is a hot-button issue with the Council, but at least now you have a decent shot at getting a research contract.
Basic Blue Box AI
Prerequisite(s): AI License Preparation
Cost: 400
Benefit: Your basic monkey brain AI, if such a thing could be called "basic" considering VIs have the brains of a slug. Requires a "blue box" as big as a decent-sized room, much like the first computers, and just as temperamental. Generally cannot interact with the world except through basic text/voice.
Used in research, a basic AI provides an additional 4d10 in research dice, and must be constantly maintained by four research teams for that quarter to provide those dice. This does not affect how many dice the research teams themselves provide, but an individual research team only be assigned to one AI (so far). Revy can, obviously, maintain one AI of her own, all by herself, because she's awesome like that.
Used in manufacturing, a basic AI reduces quarterly expenses by 10%. These AIs don't require as much intense maintenance as research AIs, but each still requires one research team to provide basic maintenance and socialization. Alternatively the maintenance can be handed off to a specially-trained AI maintenance team, operating expenses 50,000/quarter
Each basic AI requires 10,000 credits per quarter in operating expenses.
Advanced Blue Box AI
Prerequisite(s): Superalloys, Mk II Arc reactor, Optical Computing, Basic Blue Box AI
Cost: 3200
Benefit: A straight-up improvement over previous blue boxes. The blue box itself is the size of a desktop computer, and can be loaded into a mobile frame if desired.
Research bonuses increase to 6d10, and only three research teams are required to maintain such an AI.
An advanced AI assigned to manufacturing reduces quarterly expenses by 20%. A research team or AI maintenance team can maintain two such AIs.
Mobile Frame
Prerequisite(s): Basic Blue Box AI, 5 meter mech
Cost: 200
Benefit: Can build small mechs that can AIs can drive by remote in real time.
Ride-along AI
Prerequisite(s): Basic Blue Box AI, QE Comms
Cost: 400
Benefit: You can have an onboard AI in your powered armor, aka Jarvis.
Pure Software AI
Prerequisite(s): Basic Blue Box AI, Mobile Frame, Ride-along AI, Optical Computing
Cost: 1600
Benefit: Does away with the need for a Blue Box. Pure Software AIs can be uploaded to anything with enough processing power to run them, which in practice still means a very powerful computer. Software AIs are less stable than AIs with dedicated blue boxes: when rolling each quarter for new Traits a Software AI gains a positive Trait on a 97-100, and a negative Trait on a 01-10.
Logic Probes (Basic)
Prerequisite(s): Optical Computing
Cost: 400
Benefit: Allows Revy or other research teams to analyze an AI to determine what positive and negative Traits an AI has, and attempt to remove undesirable ones. New Traits are recognized and identified automatically one quarter after they first manifest. Removing an undesirable Trait requires essentially taking the AI offline for a quarter, providing no research or manufacturing benefit for that time, and has a 25 % success rate. Revy can do this with her own personal AI without taking it offline, and with a 50 % success rate.
Logic Probes (Advanced)
Prerequisite(s): Logic Probes (Basic), Quantum Entanglement Comms
Cost: 1600
Benefit: Allows faster identification of AI Traits, surer removal of undesirables, and allows the possibility of adding known desirable Traits. New Traits are recognized immediately when the AI acquires them. Removing undesirable Traits have a 50 % success rate; 100 % for Revy operating on her personal AI. Desirable Traits that have been identified in other AIs can be added to other AIs with a 10% success rate, 25 % for Revy working on her own AI, and still requires the AI to be essentially offline for a quarter.
Growpamming
Prerequisite(s): Logic Probes (Advanced)
Cost: 400
Benefit: Allows a team to attempt to add known desirable Traits to an AI during the initial programming stage, with a 20 % success rate per desirable Trait.
AI Socialization Simulation
Prerequisite(s): Logic Probes (Basic)
Cost: 400
Benefit: Puts an AI in an environment that encourages the evolution of desirable Traits. When rolling for Trait acquisition, roll twice and take the better result. Requires AI to be taken offline for the quarter.
Advanced AI Simulation
Prerequisite(s): Logic Probes (Advanced), AI Socialization Simulation
Cost: 1600
Benefit: Integrates the AI simulation into the AI's normal runtime, removing the need for the AI to be taken offline to get the benefits.
Yeah, I kinda stole a lot of that from Schlock Mercenary, and the last bit is inspired from the simulation tube that Mega Man X was tossed in for 100 years.
Proposed Artificial Intelligence Rules
Narratively, there are lots of different ways to go with AIs, as they are essentially a whole new race, or set of races, of NPCs. Mechanically, most of our actual game mechanics centers around research and production, so these rules will cover how AIs interact with those areas.
AIs, when used in research, would be attached to specific research teams (Revy, obviously, can have her very own) and provide extra dice to the research roll, to represent their unique insights. To start with, multiple research teams will be needed to support a single AI, but this ratio can be lowered as time goes on. AIs used in manufacturing would be attached to a factory and lower quarterly upkeep costs, and may provide bonuses or penalties to production capacity.
Traits: as AIs age and gain experience, they may gain positive and negative Traits. These Traits can provide bonuses or penalties to that AI: raising or lowering their research roll, the number of research teams needed to support that AI, etc. Every quarter you roll a d100 for each AI: on a 99-100 the AI develops a beneficial Trait (determined by GM); on a 01-02 the AI develops a non-beneficial Trait. Examples:
Smart: +5 to research rolls
Industrious: Factory run by this AI produces 5% more production units per quarter
Dependent: Requires 1 more research team to maintain that AI per quarter
Error-prone: AI requires 10,000 more credits of maintenance per quarter to keep running.
AI Traits will initially be hidden from us plebs (but see "Logic Probes" below)
Revised Tech Tree (replaces the three-member tree we had previously)
AI License Preparation
Prerequisite(s): None
Cost: 800
Benefit: Revy learns all the political, economic, and scientific barriers to working with AIs in Alliance and Citadel space, as well as reviewing the considerable research that has already been done in this field. Obviously this is a hot-button issue with the Council, but at least now you have a decent shot at getting a research contract.
Basic Blue Box AI
Prerequisite(s): AI License Preparation
Cost: 400
Benefit: Your basic monkey brain AI, if such a thing could be called "basic" considering VIs have the brains of a slug. Requires a "blue box" as big as a decent-sized room, much like the first computers, and just as temperamental. Generally cannot interact with the world except through basic text/voice.
Used in research, a basic AI provides an additional 4d10 in research dice, and must be constantly maintained by four research teams for that quarter to provide those dice. This does not affect how many dice the research teams themselves provide, but an individual research team only be assigned to one AI (so far). Revy can, obviously, maintain one AI of her own, all by herself, because she's awesome like that.
Used in manufacturing, a basic AI reduces quarterly expenses by 10%. These AIs don't require as much intense maintenance as research AIs, but each still requires one research team to provide basic maintenance and socialization. Alternatively the maintenance can be handed off to a specially-trained AI maintenance team, operating expenses 50,000/quarter
Each basic AI requires 10,000 credits per quarter in operating expenses.
Advanced Blue Box AI
Prerequisite(s): Superalloys, Mk II Arc reactor, Optical Computing, Basic Blue Box AI
Cost: 3200
Benefit: A straight-up improvement over previous blue boxes. The blue box itself is the size of a desktop computer, and can be loaded into a mobile frame if desired.
Research bonuses increase to 6d10, and only three research teams are required to maintain such an AI.
An advanced AI assigned to manufacturing reduces quarterly expenses by 20%. A research team or AI maintenance team can maintain two such AIs.
Mobile Frame
Prerequisite(s): Basic Blue Box AI, 5 meter mech
Cost: 200
Benefit: Can build small mechs that can AIs can drive by remote in real time.
Ride-along AI
Prerequisite(s): Basic Blue Box AI, QE Comms
Cost: 400
Benefit: You can have an onboard AI in your powered armor, aka Jarvis.
Pure Software AI
Prerequisite(s): Basic Blue Box AI, Mobile Frame, Ride-along AI, Optical Computing
Cost: 1600
Benefit: Does away with the need for a Blue Box. Pure Software AIs can be uploaded to anything with enough processing power to run them, which in practice still means a very powerful computer. Software AIs are less stable than AIs with dedicated blue boxes: when rolling each quarter for new Traits a Software AI gains a positive Trait on a 97-100, and a negative Trait on a 01-10.
Logic Probes (Basic)
Prerequisite(s): Optical Computing
Cost: 400
Benefit: Allows Revy or other research teams to analyze an AI to determine what positive and negative Traits an AI has, and attempt to remove undesirable ones. New Traits are recognized and identified automatically one quarter after they first manifest. Removing an undesirable Trait requires essentially taking the AI offline for a quarter, providing no research or manufacturing benefit for that time, and has a 25 % success rate. Revy can do this with her own personal AI without taking it offline, and with a 50 % success rate.
Logic Probes (Advanced)
Prerequisite(s): Logic Probes (Basic), Quantum Entanglement Comms
Cost: 1600
Benefit: Allows faster identification of AI Traits, surer removal of undesirables, and allows the possibility of adding known desirable Traits. New Traits are recognized immediately when the AI acquires them. Removing undesirable Traits have a 50 % success rate; 100 % for Revy operating on her personal AI. Desirable Traits that have been identified in other AIs can be added to other AIs with a 10% success rate, 25 % for Revy working on her own AI, and still requires the AI to be essentially offline for a quarter.
Growpamming
Prerequisite(s): Logic Probes (Advanced)
Cost: 400
Benefit: Allows a team to attempt to add known desirable Traits to an AI during the initial programming stage, with a 20 % success rate per desirable Trait.
AI Socialization Simulation
Prerequisite(s): Logic Probes (Basic)
Cost: 400
Benefit: Puts an AI in an environment that encourages the evolution of desirable Traits. When rolling for Trait acquisition, roll twice and take the better result. Requires AI to be taken offline for the quarter.
Advanced AI Simulation
Prerequisite(s): Logic Probes (Advanced), AI Socialization Simulation
Cost: 1600
Benefit: Integrates the AI simulation into the AI's normal runtime, removing the need for the AI to be taken offline to get the benefits.
Yeah, I kinda stole a lot of that from Schlock Mercenary, and the last bit is inspired from the simulation tube that Mega Man X was tossed in for 100 years.
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Covered by Robotics research
Functionally Identical
Should be covered by the actual AI research or there would be no way to generate a useful AI from it
Not really, no. Mobile Frame research is about linking an AI to a robot body closely enough that they can take direct control of its actions, essentially building a cerebellum into the AI core. Without it an AI could probably drive a robot, but much the same way a human would drive a robot: it would be able to order the robot around, but many of the minute, second-to-second adjustments would be done by the onboard hardware rather than the remote blue box (which at this point can still be the size of a server room).
Again, they're close, but not quite. Ride-along AIs still have relatively large blue boxes; this upgrade just lets them be kept elsewhere while the AI can project its consciousness directly into someone's powered armor. A Software AI could forego the blue box entirely and upload directly into the armor, or it could stick to a remote location and project like a Ride-along.
Both of these are relatively subtle differences, but can be important to the narrative. We might want to restrict the development of Mobile Frames to start with, to reduce potential comparison to the Geth; in fact it may be required we make that restriction to start with. Pure Software AIs are similarly dangerous, as they make it relatively trivial for the AI to self-replicate if we get a bad Trait roll.
Yeah, genetic engineering should totally be covered by reproduction; otherwise there's no point in having kids.
What you mean is there's no way to customize or custom-build an AI, and you'd be right. We'd be stuck with whatever natural/artificial evolution decides to throw at us over time. Eventually the positive and negative Traits would rack up so much that we'd have to build our own Geth Consensus just to keep the AIs from becoming drooling basket cases, which I think is an interesting narrative consequence (and a good enough origin story for the Geth).
Well, when it comes to AIs there's serious precedent for Tony Stark coming with those abilities built-in. I mean, Jarvis is a thing in just about every Iron Man continuity there is; he's almost as integral to the stories as the suits are. I guess I can see an argument for everything from Advanced Logic Probes on through Advanced AI Simulation waiting for more Science Heroes; maybe we can recruit Parra Ventura or Dr. Light?
Dr Light would be especially interesting as he could maybe have other tech that would reduce the Uncanny Valley effect for human-looking AIs, to say nothing of learning how to make a Copy Chip.I'm a bit hesitant to say so, but most of the Mass Effect/eezo tech, on the other hand, even the stuff already part of the tech tree, really has no precedent in the Iron Man continuity, other than the fact that Tony must have inertial dampeners and kinetic barriers of some kind in those suits or he'd have pasted himself dozens of times in the movies alone.
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