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Shepard Quest Mk V, Base of Operations (ME/MCU)

Esbilon said:
Alright, it looks like the initial voting frenzy has died down and people have moved on to other topics of discussion. In the hope of moving things along somewhat speedily, I'm hereby calling the vote in 7 hours, at 20:00 CET.
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Given that it's been 13.5 hours I think it safe to say:

Voting Is Closed!

Vote tally:
##### 3.18
[X] Answer them in whole or part.
-[X] The future, as always.
-[X] No Paragon Industries personnel have been deployed anywhere save our facilities on Mindoir, nor will they be in the near future, with the exception of our planned facilities on Elysium.
-[X] I have not made a decision at this time concerning selling military hardware outside of Systems Alliance.
-[X] We all have roles to play to secure our future, and right now mine is in the lab.
-[X] No comment.
No. of votes: 7
Sylvire, UberJJK, meianmaru, Alanek2002, avatar11792, TmDagger, kylina

[X] Answer them in whole or part.
-[X] The future, as always.
-[X] No Paragon Industries personnel have been deployed anywhere save our facilities on Mindoir, nor will they be in the near future, with the exception of our planned facilities on Elysium.
-[X] I have not made a decision at this time concerning selling military hardware to the other members of the Citadel. I will not sell to nations outside of it.
-[X] We all have roles to play to secure our future, and right now mine is in the lab.
-[X] No comment.
No. of votes: 6
Van Ropen, dacsan, Tabron89, Neo-Chan, wolfzoid, EdgarF

[X] Answer them in whole or part.
-[X] The future, as always.
-[X] As far as I know, no.
-[X] I have not made a decision at this time concerning selling military hardware outside of Systems Alliance.
-[X] We all have roles to play to secure our future, and right now mine is in the lab.
-[X] No comment.
No. of votes: 5
Katreus, hunter09, Leingod, tyaty1, Daniel14541

[X] Answer them in whole or part.
-[X] The future, as always.
-[X] No Paragon Industries personnel of any type have been deployed to Altahe.
-[X] I have not made a decision at this time concerning selling military hardware outside of Systems Alliance.
-[X] We all have roles to play to secure our future, and right now mine is in the lab.
-[X] No comment.
No. of votes: 4
Stroth, aceraptor, Deathwings, TheEyes

[X] Answer them in whole or part.
-[X] The future, as always.
-[X] No Paragon Industries personnel have been deployed anywhere save our facilities on Mindoir, nor will they be in the near future, with the exception of our planned facilities on Elysium. Any involvement Paragon Industries might have in any military operation is limited to our technology being used in it by the soldiers of the Alliance
-[X] I have not made a decision at this time concerning selling military hardware to our allies in this galaxy. I will not sell military hardware to nations hostile to us.
-[X] We all have roles to play to secure our future, and right now mine is in the lab. I would like to believe that, while less immediately visible, my contributions to the safety and prosperity of humanity are no less, and, hopefully, even greater than ones I would have made as a soldier
-[X] No comment.
No. of votes: 2
Yog, Carrnage

[X] 1. The future, as always.
[X] 2. I've never ordered armed personnel that planet and no one else in Paragon has the authority to do that.
[X] 3. I have not made a decision at this time concerning selling military hardware to the other members of the Citadel. I will not sell to nations outside of it.
[X] 4. I'm a scientist, not a soldier. I can do more good in the lab then in the military.
[X] 5. No. a war with the Batarians would be won in space and most of the hardware i have developed is for ground warfare. By what information is available to me A war at this time would be strategically unsound and, more importantly, be diplomatic suicide; don't let the hot heads tell you otherwise.
No. of votes: 1
Silversun17

[X] Answer them in whole or part.
-[X] The future, as always.
-[X] No Paragon Industries personnel have been deployed anywhere save our facilities on Mindoir, nor will they be in the near future.
-[X] I have not made a decision at this time concerning selling military hardware to the other members of the Citadel. I will not sell to nations outside of it.
-[X] We all have roles to play to secure our future, and right now mine is in the lab.
-[X] No comment.
No. of votes: 1
Derek58

[X] Answer them in whole or part.
-[X] The future, as always.
-[X] No. Unlike in movies archaeology isn't best performed with tanks, guns and space superiority fighters, nod and smile to Alenko, no offence.
-[X] I have not made a decision at this time concerning selling military hardware to the other members of the Citadel. I will not sell to nations outside of it.
-[X] We all have roles to play to secure our future, and right now mine is in the lab.
-[X] I think that is a question for the Alliance's Politicians and Military Analysts. All I care about is giving our forces the best equipment my people and I can devise so if such things come to pass more of them come home.
No. of votes: 1
Madfish

[x] 1. The future, as always.
[x] 2. The only expedition we have sent to Alathe has been an archaeological expedition, with any armed forces that entails, furthermore, we are not interested in sending any armed forces to any planet unless they are requested or needed by any of our expeditions or facilities.
[x] 3. I have not made a decision at this time concerning selling military hardware to the other members of the Citadel. I will not sell to nations outside of it.
[x] 4. I'm a scientist, not a soldier. I can do more good for Humanity AND the Citadel in the lab then in the military. anyone saying otherwise is a fool.
[x] 5. No. a war with the Batarians would be won in space and most of the hardware i have developed is for ground warfare. By what information is available to me A war at this time would be strategically unsound and, more importantly, be diplomatic suicide; don't let the hot heads tell you otherwise.
No. of votes: 1
JhonCollins

[X] Answer them in whole or part.
-[X] The future, as always.
-[X] No.
-[X] I have not made a decision at this time concerning selling military hardware to the other members of the Citadel. I will not sell to nations outside of it.
-[X]Ignore
-[X] No comment.
No. of votes: 1
Hazard

[X] Answer them in whole or part.
-[X] You'll see that at the competition. I hope to see you there! *smile*
-[X] Not that I'm aware of.
-[X] No comment.
-[X] No comment.
-[X] No comment.
No. of votes: 1
Amberion

[X] Answer them in whole or part.
-[X] The future, as always.
-[X] No Paragon Industries personnel of any type have been deployed to Altahe.
-[X] I have not made a decision at this time concerning selling military hardware to the other members of the Citadel. I will not sell to nations outside of it.
-[X] We all have roles to play to secure our future, and right now mine is in the lab.
-[X] No comment.
No. of votes: 1
AzaggThoth

[X] Answer them in whole or part.
-[X] The future, as always.
-[X] No Paragon Industries personnel have been deployed anywhere save our facilities on Mindoir, nor will they be in the near future, with the exception of our planned facilities on Elysium.
-[X] I have not made a decision at this time concerning selling military hardware to the other members of the Citadel. I will not sell military hardware to nations outside of it.
-[X] We all have roles to play to secure our future, and right now mine is in the lab.
-[X] No comment.
No. of votes: 1
Hoyr
 
Winning vote is even more of a winning vote than it appears, if you look at individual votes.
 
Van Ropen said:
Because the revolutionary research being proposed is something no politician can argue against without looking like a retard. I NEVER suggested they are prerequisites for being taken seriously as a researcher, they are necessary to be taken seriously from a political standpoint.
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Tech, no matter how awesome and advanced, is not going to get us out of an intractable political problem, if said problem exists. People will take that tech, thank us profusely, and then proceed to continue bitching about the same things they were previously bitching about.

The problem here is actually the same problem we have in this thread: Politics is the Mind-Killer.
People go funny in the head when talking about politics. The evolutionary reasons for this are so obvious as to be worth belaboring: In the ancestral environment, politics was a matter of life and death. And sex, and wealth, and allies, and reputation... When, today, you get into an argument about whether "we" ought to raise the minimum wage, you're executing adaptations for an ancestral environment where being on the wrong side of the argument could get you killed. Being on the right side of the argument could let you kill your hated rival!
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Organic people, whether they're human or alien, are not going to change their minds just because of some slick tech that we're giving away, no more than we in the 21st century are willing to give Microsoft any slack for their monopolistic practices, regardless of how many people the Gates Foundation inoculate against malaria, nor do we give Google any slack over their privacy-invading mapping excursions, even though they give away Android for free. Better biotech, even Eternal Youth, is not going to move the needle against a steadfast political opposition: only money, education, and the death of old people are going to change the calculus there.

I'm rather concerned that our biotech push, especially the release of Eternal Youth and even more especially the release of Eternal Youth initially just to humanity, might actually hurt us rather than help, for two reasons. First off, inflame opposition from those same conservative elements that would be against AI research, rather than convincing them that... what were we trying to convince them of in regards to AI research by releasing Eternal Youth? That we're saints and should be allowed anything and everything we're asked for? Secondly, waiting until we're an even larger company hurts us as well in the public space, for the simple, irrational fact that people have a tendency to distrust large entities, be they government or corporate. Right now we're a hip startup with a cadre of brilliant scientists, a spate of wildly successful and revolutionary products and a youthful, photogenic hero for a CEO. In a few years, we'll be a gigantic, multi-global behemoth, and we'll lose a lot of the cachet we have right now, cachet we might never get back no matter how many people we make immortal.

Fortunately for my case, I don't think there is nearly as much of an intractable problem with AI research as you and others do. After all, there are still four companies out there already doing active AI research, and I sincerely doubt they're all legacy companies from before the Geth rebellion over 300 years in the past. This implies to me that there is a path, one that has in fact already been tread, four times, to getting our own hands on an AI research exemption, even if the only way is by buying one of those other four companies (or just their AI research departments with their Council-granted exemptions, though that route exposes us to more political backlash).

It's clear that we disagree on the facts of the situation. What we need is an actual falsifiable statement, something to give one of our arguments validity over the other. As such, I propose that we at least put the points into AI License Prep, and have our legal and investigative teams look into the political situation surrounding an AI research exemption, before we commit to a massive PR blitz that may not apply, and may make things worse for us.

Yog said:
This (and sending actual diplomats) was tried before. Geth didn't listen and shot everything down.
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Wait, really? I don't remember any mention of attempts of diplomacy with the Geth. In fact, from what I remember of events, the sequence went like this:

1) Quarians notice Geth evolving sentience.
2) Quarians panic, start destroying Geth.
3) Geth protect themselves, start killing Quarians.
4) Quarians continue killing Geth, and also kill any Quarians who "sympathize" with the Geth.
5) Geth win, push Quarians off or Rannoch and out of the Perseus Veil.
6) Council responds to Quarian requests for aid by kicking them off the Citadel as punishment for creating an AI plague.
7) Quarians continue to send ships into the Veil; Geth destroy them.

I don't remember anyone at all attempting to make peaceful contact with the Geth other than the Quarians that were labeled race traitors and killed by their own people. In ME2/3 you don't see anyone in the Migrant Fleet talking about making peaceful overtures to the Geth (other than Admiral Tali, if you can maneuver her into place); everyone has crytalized into one of three camps: kill all humansGeth, re-enslave the Geth, or run away and use the massive Migrant Fleet to settle somewhere else.

basefan said:
I think it means we aren't going to start using our troops as mercenarys
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Er, aren't we trying to set up a private military organization? If we are, that statement's really going to bite us if/when we do.
 
interesting thing, despite the geth defending quarian sympathiser none survived on rannoch, that tells you something about how brutal the quarians got.
 
TheEyes said:
I don't remember anyone at all attempting to make peaceful contact with the Geth other than the Quarians that were labeled race traitors and killed by their own people. In ME2/3 you don't see anyone in the Migrant Fleet talking about making peaceful overtures to the Geth (other than Admiral Tali, if you can maneuver her into place); everyone has crytalized into one of three camps: kill all humansGeth, re-enslave the Geth, or run away and use the massive Migrant Fleet to settle somewhere else.
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It's in the first Mass Effect. Can't find the direct quote mentioning diplomatic envoys in the wiki, but did find something useful:
The geth made no attempt to pursue their former masters, though they could have easily finished them off as they retreated, out of uncertainty of the ramifications of annihilating an entire species-least of all their own creators. They chose isolation rather than face this uncertainty instead, and remained behind the Perseus Veil, away from the prying eyes of organics. In an attempt to protect the galaxy from the geth, the Citadel sent a fleet to the edge of the Veil. They suspected an imminent attack on all organics by the geth, but no attempt was made by the geth to leave their territory. Afterwards a treaty was established with the quarians by the Citadel to refrain from attacking the geth, lest they provoke retaliation. The geth adopted an isolationist policy, killing any organics that came near the Perseus Veil, and cutting themselves off from the galaxy for the next three centuries.
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TheEyes said:
Fortunately for my case, I don't think there is nearly as much of an intractable problem with AI research as you and others do. After all, there are still four companies out there already doing active AI research, and I sincerely doubt they're all legacy companies from before the Geth rebellion over 300 years in the past. This implies to me that there is a path, one that has in fact already been tread, four times, to getting our own hands on an AI research exemption, even if the only way is by buying one of those other four companies (or just their AI research departments with their Council-granted exemptions, though that route exposes us to more political backlash).
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You're absolutely right, the underlying political issues aren't going to go away because of our biotech. But they exist, and will play a role in our ability to follow the path that exists.

You're acting as if I am ignoring the fact that AI research is possible - of course it is possible. I, and the other people in this thread, aren't pulling this notion of an anti-AI sentiment in the highest reaches of Council politics out of our asses like you seem to think we are, but that doesn't mean they flat out wont research AI. I know four companies are already doing it, I am saying that the Council is not going to let a privately owned Human corporation with strong ties to the Alliance Military, a penchant for revolutionary military technology, and who is continuously upsetting the status quo they so love start doing that research unless they are forced, and our biotech is a means to apply pressure to them to allow us to do so.

Er, aren't we trying to set up a private military organization? If we are, that statement's really going to bite us if/when we do.
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No it isn't, because our PMC isn't being deployed anywhere in the "near future" - and the PMC would be probably technically be a separate entity from Paragon Industries anyways.
 
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Yog said:
It's in the first Mass Effect. Can't find the direct quote mentioning diplomatic envoys in the wiki, but did find something useful:
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That never implies that diplomats of any kind went to Geth space only that a small fleet of warships was stationed outside the Relay connecting to Geth space (Utterly pointless against a race of AI BTW) However meeting with the admiral whats-her-name vas QuibQuib. Then sending a message to the Geth telling them that you may have a peaceful resolution might work. Again luck roll and possibly a huge charisma check but not impossible.
 
JhonCollins said:
That never implies that diplomats of any kind went to Geth space only that a small fleet of warships was stationed outside the Relay connecting to Geth space (Utterly pointless against a race of AI BTW) However meeting with the admiral whats-her-name vas QuibQuib. Then sending a message to the Geth telling them that you may have a peaceful resolution might work. Again luck roll and possibly a huge charisma check but not impossible.
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killing any organics that came near the Perseus Veil
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It isn't very unclear. There is no blockade of the Relay, that fleet was sent immediately in the aftermath of the Morning War in anticipation of an attack that never came. It has no doubt long since left, as the Council will not pay for a fleet to sit out there doing nothing.

Do you really think that in three hundred years, no further attempt at contacting the Geth was made? When they specifically mention that military, civilian, salvage, pirate - everything near the Veil dies?
 
Van Ropen said:
Do you really think that in three hundred years, no further attempt at contacting the Geth was made? When they specifically mention that military, civilian, salvage, pirate - everything near the Veil dies?
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With the way the Citadel folks does things? Yes. I can think so. And the few oddballs who do try are either ignored by the Geth or shot by the paranoid dudes in Citadel space. IIRC even the nutjobs from Omega avoid the Veil like mad.
 
RazorBlaxe said:
With the way the Citadel folks does things? Yes. I can think so. And the few oddballs who do try are either ignored by the Geth or shot by the paranoid dudes in Citadel space. IIRC even the nutjobs from Omega avoid the Veil like mad.
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Yeah, the avoid the Veil because everyone who enters it dies. Because the Geth shoot them. Why would we be any different?


As fun as making fun of the Council for Bioware's inconsistency and the protagonist effect is, they have maintained a stable galactic government for centuries.
 
Van Ropen said:
Yeah, the avoid the Veil because everyone who enters it dies. Because the Geth shoot them. Why would we be any different?

As fun as making fun of the Council for Bioware's inconsistency and the protagonist effect is, they have maintained a stable galactic government for centuries.
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Er wait. Was it 'everyone who enters it dies' or 'everyone who enters do not return' ?

Never mind. My brain is derping or something. Carry on.
 
TheEyes said:
Organic people, whether they're human or alien, are not going to change their minds just because of some slick tech that we're giving away, no more than we in the 21st century are willing to give Microsoft any slack for their monopolistic practices, regardless of how many people the Gates Foundation inoculate against malaria, nor do we give Google any slack over their privacy-invading mapping excursions, even though they give away Android for free. Better biotech, even Eternal Youth, is not going to move the needle against a steadfast political opposition: only money, education, and the death of old people are going to change the calculus there.
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No, we cut them slack in those areas because of their massive legal teams and our general apathy.
 
Esbilon said:
No, we cut them slack in those areas because of their massive legal teams and our general apathy.
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Very true. Still, wining public support is one of the big things that will give us AI rights, politicians cannot afford to have an upset public, perhaps after releasing Peak Human (I think we haven't done that yet), We make a statement that you are having difficulty modifying it for other races and Batter VI would help. Tell them that you wish to develop the VI necessary to get it out within a couple years and hint strongly that studying AI would help you develop Peak Alien more quickly.

That should be able to win you a lot of public support especially with the Salarians (Especially when you "leak" that you are possibly working on a way to develop immortality, well agelessness at least).
 
Nope. Backroom political wheeling and dealing will be our best bet to acquire a license to do AI research. We need to put out feelers to the people who can make this sort of thing happen, and ask them what they want in exchange.
 
Our biggest opposition will be the Asari, the Turians only really care for the law (though a few favours from the Hierachy would not go amis - maybe offering them some better shields, It would help them with their pirate problem) and the salarians are very progressive (and probably gunning for the salarian version of the agelessness drug) The Asari seem rather traditionalistic and a bit stagnated. They are also very annoyed that we are breaking the status quo with all this non-prothean derived tech (I actually think that the citadel projects a low level indoctrination field á la this fanfic and the Asari councillor have been there the longest. {Turians have good mental discipline and take orders from the primarch who is on palaven and the salarians live for a short period of time.}).
 
JhonCollins said:
Tell them that you wish to develop the VI necessary to get it out within a couple years and hint strongly that studying AI would help you develop Peak Alien more quickly.

That should be able to win you a lot of public support especially with the Salarians (Especially when you "leak" that you are possibly working on a way to develop immortality, well agelessness at least).
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There are times when 'Jam tomorrow' is actually much less effective than 'Jam today', this is one of them.

As said above backroom deals are the most likely way to get the licence but another other is to buy out one of the companies with a licence already and continue the research ourselves with out own people and protocols.

The last is to ride the tide of popularity to get it in the end but that could use up a lot of good will to little end as Esbilon has already said he's heavily nerfing AI capabilities.
 
Now I can't stop thinking about the dumbass AI and the even dumber Caboose. On that note can we create spartans?
 
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Madfish said:
The last is to ride the tide of popularity to get it in the end but that could use up a lot of good will to little end as Esbilon has already said he's heavily nerfing AI capabilities.
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I am nerfing them heavily compared to superintelligences. I am doing this so that Revy will stay relevant to the plot. AIs will be on the level of what's seen in most pieces of fiction, such as EDI; smarter than most people with access to a lot more information than most people, and with a better ability to run things in parallel than most people.
 
Esbilon said:
I am nerfing them heavily compared to superintelligences. I am doing this so that Revy will stay relevant to the plot. AIs will be on the level of what's seen in most pieces of fiction, such as EDI; smarter than most people with access to a lot more information than most people, and with a better ability to run things in parallel than most people.
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Yeah, the last thing we need is to replace the Reapers with SHODAN....that would obviously not end well for anyone.
 
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