Amberion
Mighty #9
That's what I get for trying to fake science speak!
Shepard Quest Mk V, Base of Operations (ME/MCU)
- Thread starter Esbilon
- Start date
The original quantum theory does not actually have an opinion on this question. It's special relativity which forbids FTL communication, and thus the ban on FTL communication persists in quantum field theory, which encompasses both of the previous theories.
Nope, it doesn't in Real Life, I'm afraid. Someone worked out that it still 'works' at the speed of light and it's pretty much impossible to get speech/video transmissions via this method, the closest thing we can get to it is morse code, but the problem with using it this way is that you actually use an entangled particle (that you send to the other 'QEC') everytime you try to send messages which of course is made worse from the fact that you have to use it in a morse code like fashion.
It does allow for point to point messaging that always works, no matter what happens to get in-between, with no need to calculate for stuff like stellar drift, dust and trying to aim for a laser reciever.
I asked because I'm ostensibly training for a new job, and I somehow spent the better part of the day on Wikipedia trying to get an overview of quantum computers and..... OK I actually got sidetracked half a dozen times and am not remotely qualified to explain anything I read (and don't understand half of it besides), but I did lose a few misconceptions along the way. One thing that stood out in particular was the impossibility of FTL transmission of information via entanglement. I'm not sure I understand the why's of it so far, but thank all of you for attempting an answer to my question.
It's not even that good. Entangled states do not stay entangled after a measurement has been made on them.
I also heard something about entangled particles suddenly switching 'partners' as well, which means they can actually end up pairing with a particle that makes up your storage device....
Yeah, the more I read about it, the more I keep thinking it's a dead end tech that is only surviving due to sunk cost fallacy or something to that effect...
It might end up as 'one of those things that must absolutely die in Sci-fi' along with space fighters and believing that outer space is cold....
The problem there being that there's plenty of encryption methods that are already effectively impossible to crack and it's just as vulnerable to skeleton key decryption* as anything else.
*Skeleton key: A.K.A. Rubber-hose cryptanalysis, A.K.A. kidnap the end user and beat him with a hammer until decryption keys pop out like a cyrpto-pinata.
Okay, for clarification to the laypeople in the audience (and even the almost laypeople like me), we're basically talking about three different "Quantum [X]" subjects here:
1) Quantum Encryption: On its most basic, metaphorical level, this is the practice of using principles of quantum physics to prepare a message so that it cannot be eavesdropped on without notifying the recipient. And yes, that is about as simple as the explanation can get.
Note that implementations of quantum encryption are available today: usually it's used to distribute encryption keys in a provably secure manner, which are then used to transmit messages via less cumbersome methods (quantum encryption requires very specialized equipment, for the most part; it's not something you can do over the Internet). Note that this is an area of ongoing research, and so everything I just said above may become wrong at some point.
2) Quantum Computation: Again, basic and metaphorical here: quantum computers use tricks of superposition to, in a sense, ask a question using multiple possible inputs simultaneously and get an answer that has a reasonable probability of being correct. That's not at all what's happening, but it's about as good an explanation as someone without a background in the subject is going to get.
One of the reasons that quantum computing is such a hot topic is that questions that take a long time to answer on a conventional computer become much faster to answer on a quantum computer of sufficient qubit size. One of those questions that can be answered quickly on a quantum computer is the factorization of a very large composite number, which is really neat from a mathematical perspective, but is earth-shattering for people who do information security for a living because today nearly all of public-key cryptography--that is, the sort of cryptography that keeps your credit card and bank data from being stolen when you do business online--is all based on the fact that, right now, factoring large numbers takes a very long time. If quantum computation becomes easy, then all current public key cryptography becomes only slightly better than rot-13 at protecting secrets.
Currently, quantum computing sort of exists in the lab, is not at all practical, and it is questionable if it ever will become practical. Security experts are already looking for ways to do data and public key encryption in a world where quantum computing exists; they're having a hard time because nobody yet knows exactly what and how much quantum computing can actually do.
3) Quantum Entanglement Communication: Now we're basically entering the realm of crazy sci-fi bullshit, the same place our ZPE Arc Reactors and Mass Effect shields come from. The idea here is that, somehow, via some theretofore unknown scientific principle, people are able to use quantum entanglement to transmit information instantaneously. Current science states this to be "probably impossible" though some hold out hope that ensembles of entangled particles might bypass the theoretical restrictions... and at that point my brain started to glaze over. Regardless, this idea is as much pure sci-fi as our completely-impossible Arc Reactors, and should be treated as such.
1) Quantum Encryption: On its most basic, metaphorical level, this is the practice of using principles of quantum physics to prepare a message so that it cannot be eavesdropped on without notifying the recipient. And yes, that is about as simple as the explanation can get.
Note that implementations of quantum encryption are available today: usually it's used to distribute encryption keys in a provably secure manner, which are then used to transmit messages via less cumbersome methods (quantum encryption requires very specialized equipment, for the most part; it's not something you can do over the Internet). Note that this is an area of ongoing research, and so everything I just said above may become wrong at some point.2) Quantum Computation: Again, basic and metaphorical here: quantum computers use tricks of superposition to, in a sense, ask a question using multiple possible inputs simultaneously and get an answer that has a reasonable probability of being correct. That's not at all what's happening, but it's about as good an explanation as someone without a background in the subject is going to get.
One of the reasons that quantum computing is such a hot topic is that questions that take a long time to answer on a conventional computer become much faster to answer on a quantum computer of sufficient qubit size. One of those questions that can be answered quickly on a quantum computer is the factorization of a very large composite number, which is really neat from a mathematical perspective, but is earth-shattering for people who do information security for a living because today nearly all of public-key cryptography--that is, the sort of cryptography that keeps your credit card and bank data from being stolen when you do business online--is all based on the fact that, right now, factoring large numbers takes a very long time. If quantum computation becomes easy, then all current public key cryptography becomes only slightly better than rot-13 at protecting secrets.
Currently, quantum computing sort of exists in the lab, is not at all practical, and it is questionable if it ever will become practical. Security experts are already looking for ways to do data and public key encryption in a world where quantum computing exists; they're having a hard time because nobody yet knows exactly what and how much quantum computing can actually do.
3) Quantum Entanglement Communication: Now we're basically entering the realm of crazy sci-fi bullshit, the same place our ZPE Arc Reactors and Mass Effect shields come from. The idea here is that, somehow, via some theretofore unknown scientific principle, people are able to use quantum entanglement to transmit information instantaneously. Current science states this to be "probably impossible" though some hold out hope that ensembles of entangled particles might bypass the theoretical restrictions... and at that point my brain started to glaze over.
Regardless, this idea is as much pure sci-fi as our completely-impossible Arc Reactors, and should be treated as such.
Emizaquel
What is a self?
I am honestly annoyed that no-one has brought up null barriers yet. I.E. a mass effect field on the surface of the armour reducing the mass of any incoming projectile to zero.
since F=ma (roughly... theres a bunch of other variables but it mostly boils down to this.) reducing mass to zero kills all projectile or concussive weaponry. beyond making sure that could take a hit from anything, the only thing you would need to worry about are DEWs and those aren't common in the MEverse - hell the collector/prothean particle rifle is technically a form of micro projectile weaponry. You would only need to worry about what... Thanix cannons, CAINs, reaper ship based ordinance and GARDIAN PD lasers.
[x] write in new project - null barriers
since F=ma (roughly... theres a bunch of other variables but it mostly boils down to this.) reducing mass to zero kills all projectile or concussive weaponry. beyond making sure that could take a hit from anything, the only thing you would need to worry about are DEWs and those aren't common in the MEverse - hell the collector/prothean particle rifle is technically a form of micro projectile weaponry. You would only need to worry about what... Thanix cannons, CAINs, reaper ship based ordinance and GARDIAN PD lasers.
[x] write in new project - null barriers
That's mainly because no matter how much eezo you use, the mass never reaches absolute zero, there is always at least some mass, not only that but the amount of eezo scales up with the effect...
To reduce a rail gun round to 'zero' would probably require roughly the same amount of eezo/dark energy that is required in an FTL drive for a kinetic barrier.
Anyway, dreadnaught-grade kinetic barriers pretty much shugs off rounds that are smaller/less fast than another dreadnaught's main gun, so in a way kinetic barriers are already 'null barriers' - they all just have different limits.
You still have to deal with the spacetime warp torpedoes as well, they were designed to allow fighters/frigates/crusiers to heavliy damage the kinetic barrier systems of dreadnaughts and punch holes in them.
Let me put it this way: Even the captial grade Reapers don't have enough eezo in their shield grid in order to do this, the only thing they can do beyond having crazy strength shields compared to everyone else, is by 'quantum locking' themselves which basically blinds them and even then it doesn't make them immune to being hit with enough force....only the amount of force goes up to 'hitting them with an asteriod' from 'hitting them with a multi-kilton metal object/thanix cannon'.
meianmaru
The Devourer of Fiction
This raises an another question: Do we research "quantum lock" -shielding if we complete the Mass Relay -research project? Or do we just get relays without them? If so, could we do it as a seperate project?
I guess it's up to Esbilion, I got the impression that the main reason why the Mass Relays are quantum locked is to render them immune to wear and tear from space dust and occasional 'slow' asteriod/comet impact, in order for each Relay to survive the millions of years of operation without repair and overhaul....
Which makes me want to see if we can somehow get Revy to board a Mass Relay - they presumably have walkways/corridors than allow for occupancy, due to the fact that their in-built systems are supposedly 'easily reverse engineered into an FTL drive' but they also 'discourage' further exploration....somehow....
Emizaquel
What is a self?
I may be completely wrong but I thought the FTL cores on a ME ship take the ship's mass to zero. I know that it isn't stated that it does but I figure that it is the easiest way to circumvent the relativistic effects to approaching (or passing) the speed of light.
Notably Null barriers would only need to reduce the mass of any incoming projectile/shockwave/particle to the point where it only causes superficial damage to your armour.
I do however agree with you about the... Disruptor missiles I think?
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Amberion
Mighty #9
Well, the basic napkin math says that if a ship's mass is zero, then it can easily achieve infinite speed, and that is definitely not the case. 15 LY a day is the standard cruising speed, and the Normandy can hit twice that.
a 'barrier' that REDUCES the mass of an incoming object would actually cause that object to accelerate. Kinetic barriers INCREASE the mass of the incoming object such that it tears apart through its own gravitational stresses.
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Emizaquel
What is a self?
Kinetic barriers simply apply opposing force, Null barriers reduce the mass of the ncoming projectile to 0 (or damn close to it.) and take out the M in the F=MA equation thus the force of a projectile is redered zero (or negligible)
Force of a ship based cannon should they fire at 0.013c and a 20 kg slug that impacts on an armour and the time from impact to complete stop is 0.01s
F = 20*(299792458/0.01) = ~5.996*10^11N
which boils down to ~67396 Kilotons
a Null barrier reducing said mass to ~0.000001g would result in a measly 33N force that boils down to 0.0000033698 kiloton impact. most common combat armours stop that.
This application is quite extreme and only really practical for dreadnoughts but you get the idea.
Amberion
Mighty #9
You would need to project the field right up to the hull to ensure that the incoming projectile does not suddenly regain its mass(and its force) as soon as it passes through the null field.
Emizaquel
What is a self?
Then how in the world to mass accelerator cannons work. It is stated there that they lighten the mass of the projectile to allow it to reach high enough speeds to be used as weapons. This breaks the first law of thermodynamics but, hey it's "space magic".
Emizaquel
What is a self?
Amberion
Mighty #9
*shrugs* the setting and its physics are inconsistent.
Amberion
Mighty #9
Oh, and I think i see a problem with your F=MA. You're assuming that the value of the amount of force being applied to the lightened object is reduced to zero, along with the mass. But that's not what happens. In this particular fiction, the force is a constant(not really, but just go with it). It does not change when the mass of the object changes. Which means acceleration goes UP.
Emizaquel
What is a self?
Nope! here I am working under the same assumption of a mass accelerator and saying velocity within and outside a mass effect field is constant on any projectile. Thus the force gained from the deceleration of the impact would be lessened by loss of mass. this is governed by Force = Mass*Acceleration or in my case Force = Mass*(Change in Velocity/Time)