Mage the Ascension Discussion, Homebrew, Worldbuilding, and Game finding.

How does an orphan with a technocratic paradigm that never got their training shape their magic via their paradigm ?
An Orphan wouldn't have a Technocratic paradigm in the first place. The Technocratic paradigm is in significant part the product of Technocratic indoctrination processes that an Orphan likely wouldn't have been through.

They might well have a technology-focused paradigm, but it won't be a Technocratic one.
 
An Orphan wouldn't have a Technocratic paradigm in the first place. The Technocratic paradigm is in significant part the product of Technocratic indoctrination processes that an Orphan likely wouldn't have been through.

They might well have a technology-focused paradigm, but it won't be a Technocratic one.

Doesn't the technocratic paradigm differ from convention to convention as well as on an methodology/individual basis within the technocracy? Not everyone thinks Prime or Psychic powers work the same way right?


On another note, does anyone have examples of characters they made who were Orphans or Traditionalist who were never part of the technocracy, but their paradigm is similar to the Syndicate/NWO (I only know of the shadow ministry being somewhat similar to the NWO)? What paradigms did you create for these characters and how did they play into casting?
 


Some folks have told me these are the good guys.

I mean, it's okay to like evil factions. I pretty much always side with them in RPGs. But they have to represent what I consider an ideal, even if it's twisted horribly. Somebody like Lorgar in 40K is more my ideal than the God-Emperor precisely because I think Lorgar is closer to the truth about Humanity than the Emp was. It's as said here except I don't view it as a bad thing.

The heart and soul of what it means to be human is irrational. Faith and Feelings define everything we do and who we are. Without them we might as well be dead.

Anybody who would seek to demonize or squash that out is not only evil but they're wrong and that's more why I would oppose them than anything.

Why do some people legit support the Technocracy?
 


Some folks have told me these are the good guys.

I mean, it's okay to like evil factions. I pretty much always side with them in RPGs. But they have to represent what I consider an ideal, even if it's twisted horribly. Somebody like Lorgar in 40K is more my ideal than the God-Emperor precisely because I think Lorgar is closer to the truth about Humanity than the Emp was. It's as said here except I don't view it as a bad thing.

The heart and soul of what it means to be human is irrational. Faith and Feelings define everything we do and who we are. Without them we might as well be dead.

Anybody who would seek to demonize or squash that out is not only evil but they're wrong and that's more why I would oppose them than anything.

Why do some people legit support the Technocracy?
The text piece there is definitely obnoxious and stupid, but I don't think it is exactly typical of the Technocracy as presented in the latter years of Mage 2nd and 3rd editions.

I think there is a pretty big jump between opposing supernatural forces that would strip humanity of agency and hating faith and feelings. Canonically the Technocracy has Muslim and Christian members (and thus one would presume members of most other faiths, though it might be hard to justify a Wiccan or a Mormon Technocrat.) They certainly don't hate emotions or friendship or faith in each other (except maybe some part of the Iteration X, but those subgroups are intended to be monstrous.)

The big weirdness of how people think abou the Technocracy is that, in real life, science equips us to deal with problems and reveals the truth. In mage, science only works if you keep people sufficiently ignorant. There is some unavoidable psychological friction in trying to inhabit a world where Carl Sagan was a liar hiding the true beauty and complexity of reality and Madame Blavatsky was revealing the truth to an undeserving humanity. So some people like the Technocracy because the real life equivalents of the Technocracy, the competent bureaucrats, the skilled technicians, the scientist-philosophers, the explorers and the doctors are the good guys. And the real life analogues to many Traditionalist groups are frauds and creeps.

But even in universe, the Technocracy gave humanity a kind of agency it never had before. The mages were healing themselves and eachother and their loyal followers with mystic power for millennia, but it took the technocracy to put penicillin and aspirin in bottles for normal people to have access to without an intermediary. The mages were transmitting knowledge and power for ages, but it took the technocracy to connect humanity with telegraphs, and telephones, and internet. The mages were content to battle the other supernaturals when they intruded on their turf or fed on their subjects. The Technocracy wants to remove the secret masters and blood drinkers, and mind warpers once and for all.

In the mage universe, space travel is access to part of the spirit world. Something utterly impossible for mundane humans until the Technocracy showed up. For that matter, so are parts of the internet. The mages seek personal ascension, for themselves and ultimately for others. The technocracy seeks to perfect the world as a whole. It doesn't baffle me how people would like them.

Now first edition mages technocracy were jerks. They invented science so they got to decide who got access to the mystical, and were intent on bleeding humanity for every drop of belief to power their own ascension and dominance. Those guys were jerks, but they also weren't very compelling.
 
As a reply to the quoted bit, I have been toying with a Mage campaign where the third edition "the Ascension War is over, You lost" thing is true. But it isn't the Technocracy that won, it is the Nefandi. The world is post truth, atrocities are committed out of morbid curiousity, monsters are celebrities and vice versa. The world is nihilistic and mad because people stopped believing in the old pillars or reality. The government is lying, science is a conspiracy, religion is passe, and even nationalism is ironic. Natural disasters run rampant, disease spreads, nations go mad. Mages have to find a way to create meaning in a world that actively rejects it and them.

My players unanimously said this was a terrible idea and they did not want to play it.
 
I mean, the thing that makes the Technocracy the villain faction is that they are ultimately about control, and everything else is in service to that.

Yes, they have done a lot of good, but they have long since left those ideals behind in service to an agenda of control. Even if you play a sympathetic technocrat who is truly fighting for the people you are still ultimately serving an upper echelon who merely uses your good as justification foe their agenda.

Unless you don't of course. You can play a good Technocracy, it's a TTRPG and everyone's take on the material and world will be different, this is just "My Version of the Evil Technocracy"
 
I mean, the thing that makes the Technocracy the villain faction is that they are ultimately about control, and everything else is in service to that.

Yes, they have done a lot of good, but they have long since left those ideals behind in service to an agenda of control. Even if you play a sympathetic technocrat who is truly fighting for the people you are still ultimately serving an upper echelon who merely uses your good as justification foe their agenda.

Unless you don't of course. You can play a good Technocracy, it's a TTRPG and everyone's take on the material and world will be different, this is just "My Version of the Evil Technocracy"
You can definitely frame any of the groups as heroes or villains. But it isn't hard to see how the technocrats could come off as heroic. Or at least the lighter shade of gray. The Traditions aren't exactly universally pro-freedom. For every self-less Chorister who'd die to save man kind, there is a creepy dude from house Tytalus who wants to be a feudal overlord.
 
Ultimately the real answer here is that the Technocracy were easy to see as the good guys in the context of the politics of 2010-2016ish, where people would still say that they were "fiscally conservative but socially liberal" unironically and everyone seriously hoped--and believed--that decent people on all sides who actually believed in reality would make common cause against a insurgent lunatic fringe which rejected things like science, rationality, institutions, and so forth, and generally felt that those sorts of people were inevitably going to be defeated eventually. In that environment, a setting whose fundamental conflict was between educated people defending science and rationality and the existing world order against insurgents who rejected reality wasn't very hard to buy, and it was easy for many people to identify with the former side rather than the latter. Much as the original conceit of oMage was extremely 90s--casting a formless, angry counterculture with both right-wing and left-wing characteristics as heroes against a stifling, lifeless New World Order (see also: Deus Ex, the Matrix, etc.)--"Technocracy fanboyism" was extremely Obama-era. At that time the people who thought that the heart and soul of humanity was anger and faith and resistance and so forth and were against things like rationality and objective reality, and wanted to over throw the global world order over it, were overwhelmingly the Tea Party, and imagining yourself as part of the secret masters of the world jackbooting the Tea Party was pretty damn fun.

Of course this was ultimately just as dated as the oMage of the 90s, and it's why the whole thing essentially died off a few years ago too. Today the concept of the Technocracy--a group of essentially wonkish liberal centrists who are in fact the secret masters of the world--isn't just more difficult to identify with, but also basically impossible to buy. The weakness of international institutions that has been revealed in the past years (and the lack of any real consensus among the people running them) has made the whole idea of the Technocracy essentially just laughable. The real "technocracy" turned out to be little more than an illusion--not nearly as powerful or as able as people had thought--and the real "technocrats" of that era have scattered off every which way in the era of political radicalization that we live in now and at this point hate each other probably more than they do anyone else. That there was a secret apparatus built on top of these institutions with terminators and spaceships and men in black and so forth has become absurd to imagine.

A part of me does still like oMage and the Technocracy, but it's nostalgia rather than any real enthusiasm--a sort of yearning for a time when it seemed like everyone on the internet and everyone with an education thought that they were on one side, and the Tea Party was on the other. But that time has come and gone now, and it was never as real as we thought it was to begin with, and it's hard to imagine why you'd be sympathetic with the Technocracy now. Of course, a lot of the Traditions haven't exactly come off better either, what with the defining image of angry people on the internet going from cool hackers to Gamergate and with hermeticism being revived by twitter reactionaries LARPing at being part of a theosophical society and so forth. It's the entire oMage setting that's become too outdated to buy, either with its original take or with a contrarian revisionist one. It's kind of sad, because if anything the underlying concept behind oMage--magic-as-belief and so forth--is even more resonant today than it was then, but what can you do? White Wolf isn't going to drastically rewrite the setting to make it relevant to today--they seem to think that the original message is still relevant to today--so we're stuck with an old relic that's only ever getting older and less relevant.
 
Ultimately the real answer here is that the Technocracy were easy to see as the good guys in the context of the politics of 2010-2016ish, where people would still say that they were "fiscally conservative but socially liberal" unironically and everyone seriously hoped--and believed--that decent people on all sides who actually believed in reality would make common cause against a insurgent lunatic fringe which rejected things like science, rationality, institutions, and so forth, and generally felt that those sorts of people were inevitably going to be defeated eventually. In that environment, a setting whose fundamental conflict was between educated people defending science and rationality and the existing world order against insurgents who rejected reality wasn't very hard to buy, and it was easy for many people to identify with the former side rather than the latter. Much as the original conceit of oMage was extremely 90s--casting a formless, angry counterculture with both right-wing and left-wing characteristics as heroes against a stifling, lifeless New World Order (see also: Deus Ex, the Matrix, etc.)--"Technocracy fanboyism" was extremely Obama-era. At that time the people who thought that the heart and soul of humanity was anger and faith and resistance and so forth and were against things like rationality and objective reality, and wanted to over throw the global world order over it, were overwhelmingly the Tea Party, and imagining yourself as part of the secret masters of the world jackbooting the Tea Party was pretty damn fun.

Of course this was ultimately just as dated as the oMage of the 90s, and it's why the whole thing essentially died off a few years ago too. Today the concept of the Technocracy--a group of essentially wonkish liberal centrists who are in fact the secret masters of the world--isn't just more difficult to identify with, but also basically impossible to buy. The weakness of international institutions that has been revealed in the past years (and the lack of any real consensus among the people running them) has made the whole idea of the Technocracy essentially just laughable. The real "technocracy" turned out to be little more than an illusion--not nearly as powerful or as able as people had thought--and the real "technocrats" of that era have scattered off every which way in the era of political radicalization that we live in now and at this point hate each other probably more than they do anyone else. That there was a secret apparatus built on top of these institutions with terminators and spaceships and men in black and so forth has become absurd to imagine.

A part of me does still like oMage and the Technocracy, but it's nostalgia rather than any real enthusiasm--a sort of yearning for a time when it seemed like everyone on the internet and everyone with an education thought that they were on one side, and the Tea Party was on the other. But that time has come and gone now, and it was never as real as we thought it was to begin with, and it's hard to imagine why you'd be sympathetic with the Technocracy now. Of course, a lot of the Traditions haven't exactly come off better either, what with the defining image of angry people on the internet going from cool hackers to Gamergate and with hermeticism being revived by twitter reactionaries LARPing at being part of a theosophical society and so forth. It's the entire oMage setting that's become too outdated to buy, either with its original take or with a contrarian revisionist one. It's kind of sad, because if anything the underlying concept behind oMage--magic-as-belief and so forth--is even more resonant today than it was then, but what can you do? White Wolf isn't going to drastically rewrite the setting to make it relevant to today--they seem to think that the original message is still relevant to today--so we're stuck with an old relic that's only ever getting older and less relevant.
I just want a goddamned laser arm! Is that too much to ask?

EDIT:

I think this is actually really solid analysis. It also makes me want to run a game of mage where the Technocracy and Traditions splinter and reform into different factions with entirely different axes and with infighting that has some actual teeth instead of passive aggressive sneering at the other groups.
 
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If Mage is so irrelevant why do people argue about it constantly to this very day? Why was this thread created to shunt the mage debates off away from wider WW talk? I've been a WW fan since 2019 and I can say that even in that short time, I've seen more arguments about Mage than anything else.

I dislike the idea of fiction being "irrelevant." Ever heard the expression "everything that is old is new again"? We think we are passed something and into a new something at our own peril and arrogance.

We might be a very different world from the 90s both culturally and politically but we read fiction from thousands of years ago. I dare say we have more in common with people from the 90s than we do with the Ancient Greeks. It's because people stay the same, whatever their surroundings.

The continued heated debates about Mage seem o bear this out.
 
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If Mage is so irrelevant why do people argue about it constantly to this very day? Why was this thread created to shunt the mage debates off away from wider WW talk? I've been a WW fan since 2019 and I can say that even in that short time, I've seen more arguments about Mage than anything else.

I dislike the idea of fiction being "irrelevant." Ever heard the expression "everything that is old is new again"? We think we are passed something and into a new something at our own peril and arrogance.

We might be a very different world from the 90s both culturally and politically but we read fiction from thousands of years ago. I dare say we have more in common with people from the 90s than we do with the Ancient Greeks. It's because people stay the same, whatever their surroundings.
Something can have cool ideas but be politically outdated. There are also people like me who are interested in it largely out of nostalgia for being college age and the way it tapped into the issues that seemed super important to me at that age.

Also, we still read the greatest ancient Greek works, and they have informed our culture for centuries. But plenty of other ancient works weren't very good and were totally forgotten. When people 3000 years from now think about the great works of our era, I'll be very surprised if the World of Darkness is among them,, and I say this as someone who has devoted a lot of time and thought to them. (Clearly it's going to be the Maid RPG).

And people argue about it because it is so contradictory you can find things that work for you very easily, and then find someone just as passionate who disagrees about every single one of those things. In the early 2000s it was the Technocrat/Tradition thing, but back on the old Mage listserv the writers and developers and fans exchanged hundreds of emails arguing over exactly what was coincidental or vulgar magic "what if you teleport from inside a closet!?" And how do dinosaurs fit in to the Ascension War?
 
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If Mage is so irrelevant why do people argue about it constantly to this very day? Why was this thread created to shunt the mage debates off away from wider WW talk? I've been a WW fan since 2019 and I can say that even in that short time, I've seen more arguments about Mage than anything else.

I dislike the idea of fiction being "irrelevant." Ever heard the expression "everything that is old is new again"? We think we are passed something and into a new something at our own peril and arrogance.

We might be a very different world from the 90s both culturally and politically but we read fiction from thousands of years ago. I dare say we have more in common with people from the 90s than we do with the Ancient Greeks. It's because people stay the same, whatever their surroundings.

The continued heated debates about Mage seem o bear this out.
People don't really argue about this part of Mage anymore though. The last time I can remember being a Technocracy debate was like 2017, at least on SV--I think everyone on both sides who were originally pretty invested in it have more or less lost interest for precisely this reason.
 
People don't really argue about this part of Mage anymore though. The last time I can remember being a Technocracy debate was like 2017, at least on SV--I think everyone on both sides who were originally pretty invested in it have more or less lost interest for precisely this reason.
Technocracy debates have tapered off over time, yes. I believe this is due to the issues noted above making the Technocratic fantasy less attractive, while the zietgeist overall has shifted away from the game.
 
@mesonoxian

It's funny you mention Sagan here while we discuss X-Files elsewhere. I recently read an article about the two:
The X-Files shared with Carl Sagan a kind of cosmic loneliness — an ache for beings from elsewhere to materialize from the sky, to reveal their secret knowledge, so long obscured from us, of how to snatch meaning back from the void. In one episode, our hero, FBI agent Fox Mulder, watches footage of Sagan stating at a NASA symposium that "by finding out whether there are civilizations on planets of other stars, we reestablish a meaningful context for ourselves." Mulder and the protagonist of Sagan's novel Contact both turn the search for little green men into a personal and professional obsession, to the jeering of their colleagues and the derailing of their careers.

But whatever affection for Sagan was built into The X-Files went unrequited. In 1996, when the show was near the apex of its cultural influence, Sagan griped in his book The Demon-Haunted World: Science as a Candle in the Dark:
A series called The X Files, which pays lip service to skeptical examination of the paranormal, is skewed heavily towards the reality of alien abductions, strange powers and government complicity in covering up just about everything interesting. Almost never does the paranormal claim turn out to be a hoax or a psychological aberration or a misunderstanding of the natural world.
Sagan goes on to complain about the implausibility of the interspecies breeding depicted in Star Trek, missing how powerfully it symbolized his own cosmopolitan politics, or willing to ignore it for the sake of pedantry. For the science evangelist, like certain other flavors of moralist, there must be no art in art, only lessons. Even the most passing inaccuracies are direct threats to science, and so to civilization itself. As if in heartsick reply, the X-Files episode with the Sagan footage aired a few months after his death, with a teary-eyed Mulder watching it to nurse his despair over the revelation that an apparent alien body he'd recovered was an elaborate hoax.

So maybe Sagan didn't quite grasp the fictional part of fiction — but just the same, he might have had a point about The X-Files. The show depicted the investigations of Fox Mulder (played by David Duchovny) and Dana Scully (Gillian Anderson), two FBI agents who investigate "unexplained phenomena" under the bureau's X-Files unit, whose staff consists solely of Mulder until Scully is assigned in the pilot episode to join him. Created by Chris Carter, a television writer and producer looking for his first big break, it debuted on Fox in 1993, and was an immediate hit, popular enough that a film was made while the show was still on the air — almost unheard of in those days. It was canceled in 2002, and although its reincarnation in a second movie in 2008 went almost unnoticed, it is returning again as a six-episode miniseries in early 2016.

Unlike outright fantasies set in worlds of dragons and unicorns, distant sci-fi futures or galaxies far, far away, episodes of The X-Files generally take place in suburban or small-town America, familiar settings that give the show's phantasmagoria an ambiguous relationship with reality. And where other horror-sci-fi shows like Buffy the Vampire Slayer and The Outer Limits present themselves as parallel realities, with at most an allegorical relation to our own, The X-Files is premised on exploring the kinds of weird phenomena that some people claim are actually going on in our own world today: UFOs and alien abductions, cloak-and-dagger government conspiracies, mutants, demonic possession, strange creatures living in the sewers, poltergeists, telepathy, past-life experiences, cannibal cults, and satanic ritual abuse. In other words, exactly the kind of tabloid fodder, black-helicopter paranoia, and New Age mysticism that irritated Sagan enough to devote significant time and energy to debunking it.

One of the show's central themes involves powerful forces aligning to frustrate the investigation of The Truth — which, as the tagline from the opening credits reminds us, Is Out There. In many of the show's so-called "monster-of-the-week" episodes, we see town elders suppressing evidence and concealing the dark secrets that haunt their seemingly sleepy burgs. Other episodes explore an ongoing "mytharc" storyline, slowly revealing the existence of a shadowy syndicate of men in black dedicated to suppressing public knowledge of the existence of extraterrestrials.

The other major theme is not about the conspiratorial concealment of the truth but about those who refuse to accept it for themselves, even when they see it with their own eyes. Thus the dynamic between Mulder and Scully, the pitting of Mulder's openness to aliens and goblins against Scully's hard-nosed empiricism. Between believing in science and believing in spooks, the show says, one stands for open-minded intellectual bravery, the other a cowering behind exhausted dogma — just not in the way you've been told.
www.thenewatlantis.com

The X-Files and the Demon-Haunted World

Ari N. Schulman on why we want to believe

A soulless scientific world is no world for human beings is how I interpret these fictional struggles. Mankind needs miracles and the fantastical.
 
I think this is actually really solid analysis. It also makes me want to run a game of mage where the Technocracy and Traditions splinter and reform into different factions with entirely different axes and with infighting that has some actual teeth instead of passive aggressive sneering at the other groups.

Initial thoughts on updating Mage:

1. The Nephandi aren't a thing.

Or they are but they're largely a bunch of burnt out doomers who don't have the energy to do anything but spread their doomer message. We don't need them honestly, they're entirely superfluous given the world today.

2. The Man does not exist. There are dominant paradigms but no monoliths.

After the End of History turned out to not be a thing, the schisms in the Technocracy grew wider and wider until they splintered entirely, with the largest group being the Syndicate higher ups and whatever bits of other Conventions they could grab with them. In response to this, the Traditions also splintered and now all factions are pretty thoroughly balkanised.

3. There's now two major axes for factions to fall under.

Combative-Cooperative is a measure of how much your faction tolerates alternative paradigms. If you can generally be okay with other people who are okay with you, you're Coorperative. If you see the world as a zero-sum game where you are out to ensure your paradigm proves dominant, you're Combative. Spiritualist-Materialist is a measure of how your paradigm thinks about the human condition and their focus on spirituality vs. material conditions.

A Combative Spiritualist is where we put modern day reactionaries and their magical equivalents. See: aforementioned theosophical larping members of the Order who think they need to defend "the West" or eco-fascist Verbenna.

Combative Materialist is aforementioned Syndic led Technocrat remnants. This is the currently dominant paradigm and they tend to use Combative Idealists as catspaws. This is where Prosperity Gospel Choiristers would go along with Tea Party Syndics.

Cooperative-Idealist is where most of the good side of the Traditions while Cooperative Materialist is the same for the Technocrats. These two "sides" are in an very uneasy alliance with each other and themselves, motivated by the dominance of Combative Materialists. That doesn't stop them from tearing themselves apart over specific differences in ideology because lol whats leftist Coorperative unity?

Any thoughts?
 
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@mesonoxian

It's funny you mention Sagan here while we discuss X-Files elsewhere. I recently read an article about the two:

www.thenewatlantis.com

The X-Files and the Demon-Haunted World

Ari N. Schulman on why we want to believe

A soulless scientific world is no world for human beings is how I interpret these fictional struggles. Mankind needs miracles and the fantastical.


One of the most interesting things about oMage--or at least the revisionist notion of oMage that I think most people here accept to at least some degree, where everybody genuinely believes their own paradigms instead of the purple paradigm stupidity that WW often tried to inject into the setting--was that the Traditions don't meaningfully believe in miracles and the fantastical any more than the Technocracy does, for all that White Wolf initially wanted to present otherwise. People like the Akashics and Choir and Dreamspeakers and what not (that is to say, the Traditions which people actually take seriously, rather than groups like the Verbana or the Ecstatics which are just random fringe movements from the 90s that the authors thought were cool and which I think most people agree are something of an unfortunate and dated part of the setting) are just the worldviews who lost when the Technocracy won--reverse this and you have a world with just as little room for wonder and fantasy and miracles, just one where Theosophy or Buddhism or Christianity take the place of science and reason as that which is thought to explain everything.

The decline of faith and miracles and the emergence of "materialism"--which is to say, disregard for things outside of the natural world, whatever that "natural world" may be in the context of oMage with its consensus reality--has very little to do with the Technocracy or the particulars of the Technocratic worldview in truth. Instead it has everything to do with the rise of modern urban society, which leads to expansion of knowledge, widespread availability of information, and the discrediting of superstitions which generally maintain themselves in isolated populations. This would have happened if any other group had won as well. Perhaps in other worlds men cure what ails them with internal alchemy rather than pharmaceuticals, or gather in cathedrals rather than markets and buy indulgences rather than securities, or preserve their crops with dances to the rain spirits rather than fertilizers, but in all of these worlds, when knowledge and power are made available to everyone, when world becomes connected and developed and explored, when men are plucked from their villages with little more to do than to work and to wonder and thrust into a modern world where things are known and explained and sold, this is when miracles and fantasy die.

The original oMage rebelled against this from a sort of misread postmodern individualist perspective, with the idea that you can choose to believe anything and make it real and meaningful through your belief in it, with the writers frequently believing that this was actually true and that the chaos magic they were writing about actually existed. But of course this is ridiculous--it was ridiculous even in the 90s so and it's infinitely moreso now that the counterculture that dabbled in these ideas is basically dead. And so in today's context, the revolt against soullessness and for miracles and superstition is more or less exclusively the revolt against the modern world--a revolt against cities and colleges and industries, a revolt for borders and tribes and aesthetics.

The opposite of materialism and "soullessness" is the border. Borders between nations and cultures and faiths, between towns and farms and clans and bioregions, between races and sexes and classes and castes, between languages and arts and knowledges and disciplines. One can believe in miracles when one does not know enough to understand and explain, one can entertain fantasies of that of which one has not seen and heard. The most superstitious and wondrous people are those whose only explanation for things are superstition and wonder and fantasy and imagination--those who are not exposed to texts or experiments or other people that countermand their own imagination and the imagination of their immediate community.

This is, of course, also a deeply reactionary perspective, to the point where I paraphrased the back half of this post from something I saw on Bronze Age Pervert's dash. Yearning for this meaning and wonder and fantasy is in fact yearning for a world where the vast masses of mankind are subjugated to poverty and ignorance and bigotry, and most of all to a narrow elite who alone control the levers of knowledge and power, and may seek their heroism and the fulfillment of their fantasies with the labor of all those who are subjugated to them and know nothing else but that subjugation. A world which inevitably will have little tolerance for difference and dissent, and which trades the "soullessness" of the modern world for the endless misery of the million fiefdoms of the past. One which restores the wonder of sight and color by gouging out our eyes.

Even oMage itself recognized this--this was basically the entire point of the Sorcerer's Crusade line, and is also the reason why the Order of Hermes (precisely the people who want to restore this sort of world) are supposed to be basically terrible in it. These people are the villains of oMage's setting, not its heroes--the old, reactionary edifice on top of every society in the setting, a concept which to my knowledge dates back to at least 2e. The sort of punkish, anti-authoritarian revolt against the soullessness of modern society was a product of the 90s counterculture and shit like wicca and the New Age and what not--it's been dead for decades. In it's place the only revolt against the modern world that is left is the revolt of Evola and Guenon, the revolt of Bannon and Dugin, the hideous, loathsome revolt that will restore the cold and ancient terror of a hundred thousand years. Even oMage knew better than to think that this revolt is good.

(oWolf, on the other hand, did not. People laugh at it for a reason)
 
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One of the most interesting things about oMage--or at least the revisionist notion of oMage that I think most people here accept to at least some degree, where everybody genuinely believes their own paradigms instead of the purple paradigm stupidity that WW often tried to inject into the setting--was that the Traditions don't meaningfully believe in miracles and the fantastical any more than the Technocracy does, for all that White Wolf initially wanted to present otherwise. People like the Akashics and Choir and Dreamspeakers and what not (that is to say, the Traditions which people actually take seriously, rather than groups like the Verbana or the Ecstatics which are just random fringe movements from the 90s that the authors thought were cool and which I think most people agree are something of an unfortunate and dated part of the setting) are just the worldviews who lost when the Technocracy won--reverse this and you have a world with just as little room for wonder and fantasy and miracles, just one where Theosophy or Buddhism or Christianity take the place of science and reason as that which is thought to explain everything.

The decline of faith and miracles and the emergence of "materialism"--which is to say, disregard for things outside of the natural world, whatever that "natural world" may be in the context of oMage with its consensus reality--has very little to do with the Technocracy or the particulars of the Technocratic worldview in truth. Instead it has everything to do with the rise of modern urban society, which leads to expansion of knowledge, widespread availability of information, and the discrediting of superstitions which generally maintain themselves in isolated populations. This would have happened if any other group had won as well. Perhaps in other worlds men cure what ails them with internal alchemy rather than pharmaceuticals, or gather in cathedrals rather than markets and buy indulgences rather than securities, or preserve their crops with dances to the rain spirits rather than fertilizers, but in all of these worlds, when knowledge and power are made available to everyone, when world becomes connected and developed and explored, when men are plucked from their villages with little more to do than to work and to wonder and thrust into a modern world where things are known and explained and sold, this is when miracles and fantasy die.

The original oMage rebelled against this from a sort of misread postmodern individualist perspective, with the idea that you can choose to believe anything and make it real and meaningful through your belief in it, with the writers frequently believing that this was actually true and that the chaos magic they were writing about actually existed. But of course this is ridiculous--it was ridiculous even in the 90s so and it's infinitely moreso now that the counterculture that dabbled in these ideas is basically dead. And so in today's context, the revolt against soullessness and for miracles and superstition is more or less exclusively the revolt against the modern world--a revolt against cities and colleges and industries, a revolt for borders and tribes and aesthetics.

The opposite of materialism and "soullessness" is the border. Borders between nations and cultures and faiths, between towns and farms and clans and bioregions, between races and sexes and classes and castes, between languages and arts and knowledges and disciplines. One can believe in miracles when one does not know enough to understand and explain, one can entertain fantasies of that of which one has not seen and heard. The most superstitious and wondrous people are those whose only explanation for things are superstition and wonder and fantasy and imagination--those who are not exposed to texts or experiments or other people that countermand their own imagination and the imagination of their immediate community.

This is, of course, also a deeply reactionary perspective, to the point where I paraphrased the back half of this post from something I saw on Bronze Age Pervert's dash. Yearning for this meaning and wonder and fantasy is in fact yearning for a world where the vast masses of mankind are subjugated to poverty and ignorance and bigotry, and most of all to a narrow elite who alone control the levers of knowledge and power, and may seek their heroism and the fulfillment of their fantasies with the labor of all those who are subjugated to them and know nothing else but that subjugation. A world which inevitably will have little tolerance for difference and dissent, and which trades the "soullessness" of the modern world for the endless misery of the million fiefdoms of the past. One which restores the wonder of sight and color by gouging out our eyes.

Even oMage itself recognized this--this was basically the entire point of the Sorcerer's Crusade line, and is also the reason why the Order of Hermes (precisely the people who want to restore this sort of world) are supposed to be basically terrible in it. These people are the villains of oMage's setting, not its heroes--the old, reactionary edifice on top of every society in the setting, a concept which to my knowledge dates back to at least 2e. The sort of punkish, anti-authoritarian revolt against the soullessness of modern society was a product of the 90s counterculture and shit like wicca and the New Age and what not--it's been dead for decades. In it's place the only revolt against the modern world that is left is the revolt of Evola and Guenon, the revolt of Bannon and Dugin, the hideous, loathsome revolt that will restore the cold and ancient terror of a hundred thousand years. Even oMage knew better than to think that this revolt is good.

(oWolf, on the other hand, did not. People laugh at it for a reason)


The modern world isn't a free, egalitarian paradise, though. You can give people knowledge but you can't make them use it. You can give them freedom but youcan't make them want to be free. It's because knowledge and freedom without meaning or purpose are worthless things. You're right, the postmodern individualism of the 90s died and it's because it offered nothing but that empty, hollow freedom. It was replaced by a resurgent Far Lett and Far Right. One groups longs to drag people forward, the other backward. And a lot of people are lining up to happily be dragged. Why is that? Because people need myths to govern their lives, be it the myth of Progress or of a perfect past.

Something as dead as the 90s individualism is the old fable that we will outgrow superstition ie. religion. You saw that claim a lot in older science fiction. It was a childish conceit and has been rejected not just by academics but by modern scifi authors themselves.

Not to sound cliche but the truth is in the middle as both extremes are clearly wrong. But if I were to say what is the "soul" of mankind, I'd say it's sooner seen in the Traditions.
 
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The modern world isn't a free, egalitarian paradise, though. You can give people knowledge but you can't make them use it. You can give them freedom but youcan't make them want to be free. It's because knowledge and freedom without meaning or purpose are worthless things. You're right, the postmodern individualism of the 90s died and it's because it offered nothing but that empty, hollow freedom. It was replaced by a resurgent Far Lett and Far Right. One groups longs to drag people forward, the other backward. And a lot of people are lining up to happily be dragged. Why is that? Because people need myths to govern their lives, be it the myth of Progress or of a perfect past.

Something as dead as the 90s individualism is the old fable that we will outgrow superstition ie. religion. You saw that claim a lot in older science fiction. It was a childish conceit and has been rejected not just by academics but by modern scifi authors themselves.

Not to sound cliche but the truth is in the middle as both extremes are clearly wrong. But if I were to say what is the "soul" of mankind, I'd say it's sooner seen in the Traditions.
I wrote up a long reply, but I decided I think we're getting too much into the weeds here. In the game, neither faction really stands for something sensible in the real world. The traditions are hodgepodge of beliefs which aren't even coherent within a single faction. (Like how do the Celestial Chorus make any sense? Their paradigm is that God exists. Cool, what does that have to do with how the world works? Unless you are some sort of super Malebranchist who thinks God intervenes to make your toast in the morning that isn't a "paradigm" in the Mage sense.) As a collective they make even less sense. What they stand for is a world where mages can do more magic. That isn't something that can happen in our world, regardless of politics or metaphysical commitments.

The "science" the Technocracy pushes isn't science. Real science is an effort for confirmable truth about physical reality. The Technocrats actually distort the truth and hide elements of physical reality that don't benefit them. They are bad scientists. They are pushing a specific, nihilistic philosophy that isn't scientific, even if it what scientists and physicalists are often accused of by people who don't understand science or philosophy especially well. (Which admittedly does include some less philosophically astute scientists.)

I disagree that people need to be told myths. I'm religious and a leftist, but it isn't because I need some grand narratives to guide my life. It is because I think the former is true and the latter is an efficient program to improve people's lives. If I lost both of those beliefs, I don't think I'd suddenly need to adopt racist ultranationalism, or a belief in magic, or mindless reductionism to fill the gap.
 
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I wrote up a long reply, but I decided I think we're getting too much into the weeds here. In the game, neither faction really stands for something sensible in the real world. The traditions are hodgepodge of beliefs which aren't even coherent within a single faction. (Like how do the Celestial Chorus make any sense? Their paradigm is that God exists. Cool, what does that have to do with how the world works? Unless you are some sort of super Malebranchist who thinks God intervenes to make your toast in the morning that isn't a "paradigm" in the Mage sense.) As a collective they make even less sense. What they stand for is a world where mages can do more magic. That isn't something that can happen in our world, regardless of politics or metaphysical commitments.

The "science" the Technocracy pushes isn't science. Real science is an effort for confirmable truth about physical reality. The Technocrats actually distort the truth and hide elements of physical reality that don't benefit them. They are bad scientists. They are pushing a specific, nihilistic philosophy that isn't scientific, even if it what scientists and physicalists are often accused of by people who don't understand science or philosophy especially well. (Which admittedly does include some less philosophically astute scientists.)

I disagree that people need to be told myths. I'm religious and a leftist, but it isn't because I need some grand narratives to guide my life. It is because I think the former is true and the latter is an efficient program to improve people's lives. If I lost both of those beliefs, I don't think I'd suddenly need to adopt racist ultranationalism, or a belief in magic, or mindless reductionism to fill the gap.

You are right, we are getting too into the weeds. However I think that is the real reason why oMage debates are so heated, frequent and neverending. I know your views and CD's views and my own views and we've all started talking about our real life philosophical perspectives by using Mage as a proxy.

And maybe that was kind of the point. A lot of folks here and elsewhere scoff at the Old World of Darkness for whatever reason but it was clearly intended to have serious sociopolitical commentary. The World of Darkness is our world, just a little darker as the Gothic-Punk label describes. Anything you say about oMage in particular seems almost by design to inevitably reflect your real views on the world.
 
My favorite thing about mage is how I can read about all these real world fringe movements, like no touch martial arts takedowns, and think to myself "you know them not working in front of reporters actually does match what mage says" it adds a nice bit of vermisltude because I can pretend its real with little effort
 
I wrote up a long reply, but I decided I think we're getting too much into the weeds here. In the game, neither faction really stands for something sensible in the real world. The traditions are hodgepodge of beliefs which aren't even coherent within a single faction. (Like how do the Celestial Chorus make any sense? Their paradigm is that God exists. Cool, what does that have to do with how the world works? Unless you are some sort of super Malebranchist who thinks God intervenes to make your toast in the morning that isn't a "paradigm" in the Mage sense.) As a collective they make even less sense. What they stand for is a world where mages can do more magic. That isn't something that can happen in our world, regardless of politics or metaphysical commitments.
The problem with the Traditions is that stimousely too many of them to keep manageable in your headspace and yet too few to actually encompass the things are actually sort of supposed to represent.
 
I disagree that people need to be told myths. I'm religious and a leftist, but it isn't because I need some grand narratives to guide my life. It is because I think the former is true and the latter is an efficient program to improve people's lives. If I lost both of those beliefs, I don't think I'd suddenly need to adopt racist ultranationalism, or a belief in magic, or mindless reductionism to fill the gap.

I'm religious and lately left leaning (because the right in my country has decided it hates compassion), and I usually agree with you, but not here.

people absolutely need myths, in the Levi-Strauss sense of the word. Humans crave meaning and identity and narrative by nature.

Stories are how we understand the world and ourselves. A good myth is close to fact and truth (and thus less prone to harm), but it is still a construct of human yearning for significance that a purely materialistic world does not have.
 
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