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Mage the Ascension Discussion, Homebrew, Worldbuilding, and Game finding.

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You get to float around as a energy being and talk shit to the US Air Force, haven't your seen SG-1?

Really though you have to decide is Personal Ascension a thing or is everybody aiming for Global Ascension (or vise versa).
 
Bel said:
You get to float around as a energy being and talk shit to the US Air Force, haven't your seen SG-1?

Really though you have to decide is Personal Ascension a thing or is everybody aiming for Global Ascension (or vise versa).
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You can't have both?
 
So.... was slavery technically correct in Ascension?

Because there's pretty good evidence to suggest that it was never correct and that the slavers were always wrong in my head, but....
 
Nilay said:
So.... was slavery technically correct in Ascension?

Because there's pretty good evidence to suggest that it was never correct and that the slavers were always wrong in my head, but....
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One problem M:TA has is that its pretty vague and doesn't really define the limits and boundaries of consensus; hence why all the arguments that tend to follow it.
 
Nilay said:
So.... was slavery technically correct in Ascension?

Because there's pretty good evidence to suggest that it was never correct and that the slavers were always wrong in my head, but....
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The slavers may think they're justified, but slaves tend to disagree and they get equal say in how reality works. Note also that Technocratic dominance does not seem to have self-justified by rendering their ideological opponents stupid or evil, despite what the pro-Crat propaganda lean of this board might lead one to believe. :V
 
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rikalous said:
The slavers may think they're justified, but slaves tend to disagree and they get equal say in how reality works. Note also that Technocratic dominance does not seem to have self-justified by rendering their ideological opponents stupid or evil, despite what the pro-Crat propaganda lean of this board might lead one to believe. :V
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Yeah but by the most literal reading of consensus would mean in then the slaves in the antebellum south would literally become stupider if they ever moved outside by themselves the bubble of their own local slave consensus; since the whites outnumbered them by great deal there. Which then for example make any slaves escape that isn't a mass breakout impossible; which is a pretty nonsensical chain of logic if we are supposed to believe that M:TA is supposed to also exist alongside in our own history; persecuted minorities would never ever be able to achieve any of equality by this strict reading of consensus reality, because the bigger consensus of the dominant group would literally make them into what they think they are into what they actually are.
 
Talkkno said:
Yeah but by the most literal reading of consensus would mean in then the slaves in the antebellum south would literally become stupider if they ever moved outside by themselves the bubble of their own local slave consensus; since the whites outnumbered them by great deal there. Which then for example make any slaves escape that isn't a mass breakout impossible; which is a pretty nonsensical chain of logic if we are supposed to believe that M:TA is supposed to also exist alongside in our own history; persecuted minorities would never ever be able to achieve any of equality by this strict reading of consensus reality, because the bigger consensus of the dominant group would literally make them into what they think they are into what they actually are.
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Okay, so that reading produces nonsense. Logically then it must be wrong. That's not a problem for me because I disagree with that reading anyway, so I don't really get why we're talking about it?
 
rikalous said:
Okay, so that reading produces nonsense. Logically then it must be wrong. That's not a problem for me because I disagree with that reading anyway, so I don't really get why we're talking about it?
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Well the reason I'm pointing it out is that it does producing nonsense and goes back to the point the limits of consensus are vague i brought up earlier, sorry i didn't make it clear.
 
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It probably happens in the same way Religion works in Mage. Most people in WoD (insulting as some people find it) don't Believe (capital letters included) in their particular gods/beliefs. They are culturally religious, and even the people who do attend churches and really believe...very few of them have True Faith.

In the same way I would say that the Slave Owners (or the people who didn't have slaves but lived alongside those slave owners) didn't have the iron shod Belief in the mental inferiority of the slaves. It was all a convenient lie, used to justify the exploitation of the slaves, but one that wasn't so strongly believed as fact as to have the Consensus turn in that direction to any large degree.
 
Bel said:
It probably happens in the same way Religion works in Mage. Most people in WoD (insulting as some people find it) don't Believe (capital letters included) in their particular gods/beliefs. They are culturally religious, and even the people who do attend churches and really believe...very few of them have True Faith.

In the same way I would say that the Slave Owners (or the people who didn't have slaves but lived alongside those slave owners) didn't have the iron shod Belief in the mental inferiority of the slaves. It was all a convenient lie, used to justify the exploitation of the slaves, but one that wasn't so strongly believed as fact as to have the Consensus turn in that direction to any large degree.
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Yeah but at the same time by the same line of reasoning; relativity is somehow more in the consensus then religion is given how the technocracy manages to get its devices working just fine in front of sleepers.
 
Talkkno said:
Yeah but at the same time by the same line of reasoning; relativity is somehow more in the consensus then religion is given how the technocracy manages to get its devices working just fine in front of sleepers.
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I think that actually has to do with the belief that "Experts"/"Professionals"/"Scientists"/"Technicians" know what they are doing and/or are smarter than you.
So even if you don't know how what they are doing works you believe that it will work.

Although that belief seems to be lessening lately.
 
Sydonai said:
I think that actually has to do with the belief that "Experts"/"Professionals"/"Scientists"/"Technicians" know what they are doing and/or are smarter than you.
So even if you don't know how what they are doing works you believe that it will work.

Although that belief seems to be lessening lately.
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Shouldn't that also apply the same though in regards say the Catholic church and its own equivalents given same kind of hierarchical structure.
 
Talkkno said:
Shouldn't that also apply the same though in regards say the Catholic church and its own equivalents given same kind of hierarchical structure.
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Yes, but again-
Bel said:
It probably happens in the same way Religion works in Mage. Most people in WoD (insulting as some people find it) don't Believe (capital letters included) in their particular gods/beliefs. They are culturally religious, and even the people who do attend churches and really believe...very few of them have True Faith.
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Talkkno said:
Yeah but at the same time by the same line of reasoning; relativity is somehow more in the consensus then religion is given how the technocracy manages to get its devices working just fine in front of sleepers.
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A new and experimental technology or technique allows for someone's previously-terminal cancer to be removed.
An angel cures a person's cancer after they recite a prayer, read a verse from the bible, and give a donation to their local church.

Which one, in our current society, seems more believable?

Even religious people, that Believe in the existence of God, are going to expect the former over the latter because we don't expect direct intervention from the supernatural. Theological justifications for God's non-interference and stuff like "God helps those who help themselves" further the Technocratic paradigm as a result, because summoning an angel or smiting someone is no longer justified. A lot of more liberal religious institutions could probably be portrayed as Technocratic fronts rather than Chorister havens.

On slavery: My limited understanding of the South is that many plantation owners did fear the possibility of a slave uprising, so it wouldn't have been impossible for one to occur, especially when bolstered by the beliefs of abolitionists and slaves as well.
 
CallMeIsmail said:
A new and experimental technology or technique allows for someone's previously-terminal cancer to be removed.
An angel cures a person's cancer after they recite a prayer, read a verse from the bible, and give a donation to their local church.

Which one, in our current society, seems more believable?

Even religious people, that Believe in the existence of God, are going to expect the former over the latter because we don't expect direct intervention from the supernatural. Theological justifications for God's non-interference and stuff like "God helps those who help themselves" further the Technocratic paradigm as a result, because summoning an angel or smiting someone is no longer justified. A lot of more liberal religious institutions could probably be portrayed as Technocratic fronts rather than Chorister havens.
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Yes; but given that things like stuff like nursery rhymes are cited as examples as consensus linear sorcery; more coincidental things like saying a prayer of thanks before supper still should exert an effect; just a more subtle one that don't necessarily have to do with the technoparadrim.
 
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Talkkno said:
Yes; but given that things like stuff like nursery rhymes are cited as examples as consensus linear sorcery; more coincidental things like saying a prayer of thanks before supper still should exert an effect; just a more subtle one that don't necessarily have to do with the technoparadrim.
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What is your actual point?

Talkkno said:
Yeah but at the same time by the same line of reasoning; relativity is somehow more in the consensus then religion is given how the technocracy manages to get its devices working just fine in front of sleepers.
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Here, you're talking about unsubtle uses of the technoparadigm i.e. superscience Devices. The equivalent of this is unsubtle uses of a religious paradigm along the lines of calling down holy fire, which people pointed out wasn't going to happen.

Now, you're talking about more subtle coincidental effects via the religious paradigm i.e. Dresden Files style coincidences, which I don't think anyone has a problem with.

So, I'm going to ask again, what is your point here?
 
Talkkno said:
Yeah but by the most literal reading of consensus would mean in then the slaves in the antebellum south would literally become stupider if they ever moved outside by themselves the bubble of their own local slave consensus; since the whites outnumbered them by great deal there. Which then for example make any slaves escape that isn't a mass breakout impossible; which is a pretty nonsensical chain of logic if we are supposed to believe that M:TA is supposed to also exist alongside in our own history; persecuted minorities would never ever be able to achieve any of equality by this strict reading of consensus reality, because the bigger consensus of the dominant group would literally make them into what they think they are into what they actually are.
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Consensus is vague but I think it's pretty clear by the fact the situation you describe didn't happen in Mage means your Avatar (remember everyone has one even the Sleepers) is supreme on your sense of self. So no you can't make your foes stupider or your slaves more docile.

But I recognize it's more inferred in canon than outright stated, to the point I felt obligated to outright state it when I began an Omage campaign.
 
MJ12 Commando said:
So I was binge-reading Gavin Smith's Age of Scorpio and its two sequels and this resulted. Because "nano-augmented bisexual druid bent on revenge" is definitely a unique character concept. It's also a really interesting concept in oMage, because the idea that two factions are basically creating the exact same effect via completely different paradigms is cool. It also makes a point that both sides of the Ascension War tend to steal ideas and rotes from each other, then repurpose them through the lens of their own paradigm.

Combat Bionano Transfusion/The Ritual of Gaia's Chosen (Enlightenment/Arete 5, 15 pt Enhancement)

This Enhancement modifies the mage's blood. The Progenitors see it as an infusion of advanced 'wet' nanotechnology, derived from alien artifacts, a technique they have had access to for centuries. The Verbena, who claim that the Hermetics (and later the Aesculpians) stole the technique from them in the first place, believe that it is blessing the mage's blood and transforming it into an overwhelming font of life and vitality. Both of them have recovered the bodies of their similarly-enhanced counterparts and found proof of their own theories. What both of them agree on, though, is that this Enhancement makes a mage faster, stronger, and much, much tougher.

Amusingly, this Enhancement is common to only three groups in the Ascension War: The Progenitors, the Verbena, and the Nephandi. The Progenitors considers the Verbena to be doing the same thing they were-modifying and interfacing human bodies with xenotechnological "wet" nanotechnology. The Verbena believe that the Progenitors have simply stolen and repackaged their old blood-blessings. The main difference is that the Verbena's blessings take the form of painful and time-consuming, but less invasive rituals while the Progenitor variant requires far more invasive surgery and a commensurately long recovery while the blood nanites are programmed and taught to acclimate to their host.

This Enhancement provides the following benefits:
  • Eternal Life: The character regenerates 1 Bashing or Lethal health level a round. The character no longer ages.
  • Unnatural Vigor: The character gains +1 to all physical attributes and 2 -0 health levels.
  • Unnatural Resilience: The character soaks Lethal and Aggravated damage with full Stamina.
  • Augmented Biology: The character's blood can modify the tissues of the user to optimize their biology as a Life 3 effect. The character can roll the Enhancement's Enlightenment/Arete to augment themselves. Each success allows the character to add a dot to a physical attribute or gain 2 points of Merits that can be explained through physical alterations to the body (e.g. temporarily gaining Acute Sight by augmenting one's eyes). This is coincidental unless the character makes blatant use of inhuman attributes. Attributes up to the edge of superhuman (6 or below) will generally never be vulgar. These augmentations last for a scene, or until this effect is used again.
  • Paradox: Because the character regenerates at an inhuman rate and can live indefinitely, the character gains 2 permanent Paradox.
Nanotech Integration (8 pt Enhancement)

The Progenitors and their predecessors have had access to combat-oriented nanotransfusion for, as mentioned, centuries. However, the Progenitors have also found its multitude of features somewhat overkill for its most important benefit-granting someone eternal life. However, only recent technological developments, and Iteration X's improved understanding of smart matter (read: paradigmic constraints) have allowed the Progenitors to tweak their combat-oriented infusion to provide for a much more cost-effective version which guarantees greatly extended lifespan and rapid regeneration but does not provide the same combat benefits as Combat Bionano Transfusion. Nanotech Integration is reserved for high-ranking Technocrats who are deserving of a reward of (biological) immortality.

Nanotech Integration provides the following benefits:
  • Eternal Life: The character regenerates 1 Bashing or Lethal health level a round. The character no longer ages.
  • Enhanced Endurance: The character gains +1 to Stamina and 2 -0 health levels.
  • Paradox: Because the character regenerates at an inhuman rate and can live indefinitely, the character gains 2 permanent Paradox.
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I dunno, MJ. 'Literally ageless' for only 2 permadox? The most sought after effect for aging Masters, available relatively cheaply? Sure it's an eight point merit but that's still not much for the Technocratic equivalent of Porthos, since it's universally in technoparadigm, minus perhaps the extreme beep boop computer free us from the meat iterators.
 
Talkkno said:
One problem M:TA has is that its pretty vague and doesn't really define the limits and boundaries of consensus; hence why all the arguments that tend to follow it.
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So... I wanted to say something but this:

ganonso said:
Consensus is vague but I think it's pretty clear by the fact the situation you describe didn't happen in Mage means your Avatar (remember everyone has one even the Sleepers) is supreme on your sense of self. So no you can't make your foes stupider or your slaves more docile.

But I recognize it's more inferred in canon than outright stated, to the point I felt obligated to outright state it when I began an Omage campaign.
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Says it for me.

I wouldn't be surprised if history was actually even more fragmented than normal because of the fact that individuals can influence history just by existing and thinking, with Mages changing more because of the fact that they're doing it consciously instead of unconsciously.
 
Talkkno said:
Yeah but by the most literal reading of consensus would mean in then the slaves in the antebellum south would literally become stupider if they ever moved outside by themselves the bubble of their own local slave consensus; since the whites outnumbered them by great deal there. Which then for example make any slaves escape that isn't a mass breakout impossible; which is a pretty nonsensical chain of logic if we are supposed to believe that M:TA is supposed to also exist alongside in our own history; persecuted minorities would never ever be able to achieve any of equality by this strict reading of consensus reality, because the bigger consensus of the dominant group would literally make them into what they think they are into what they actually are.
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Earthscorpion had a brief but pretty good take on issues like this a while ago:

EarthScorpion said:
Well, at that point, you're asking yourself questions like "If women had to pay XP surcharges to learn highly mathematical Abilities, is that because the laws of physics were different so womens' brains really did work differently, or was it just that it was much harder for a woman to learn these things with all that social pressure against it?".

I mean, even IRL, there's a known phenomenon that if people are told that their sex performs worse at a type of exam, they actually do worse than a control group.
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ChineseDrone said:
Earthscorpion had a brief but pretty good take on issues like this a while ago:
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Way, way back when I ran Mage, I worked on the assumption that since all humans had at least fractional magical capacity (to inform consensus with their belief, even if they couldn't defy it), their actual abilities couldn't be diminished by consensus. They could still be weakened by self-doubt and systemic bias, of course.
 
mesonoxian said:
Way, way back when I ran Mage, I worked on the assumption that since all humans had at least fractional magical capacity (to inform consensus with their belief, even if they couldn't defy it), their actual abilities couldn't be diminished by consensus. They could still be weakened by self-doubt and systemic bias, of course.
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Well the thing is, who says self-doubt and systemic bias aren't exactly the way the consensus expresses itself?
 
ChineseDrone said:
Well the thing is, who says self-doubt and systemic bias aren't exactly the way the consensus expresses itself?
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This suddenly makes me want to play a Mage game set in the antebellum south, with slave mages, using the High John the Conqueror stories for inspiration, where playing to the slave owners perception of the slaves as foolish, venial, or childlike makes effects "coincidental" even if the actual magic is vulgar. But I doubt my ability to pull it off without it being unintentionally racist as hell, so I think I'll just let it sit.
 
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