Wait, you don't have to buy the intermittent steps?
Only for some merits. Exalted, like NWoD, has some merits that can be bought at a fixed level, and some merits where each level has the proceeding levels as a prerequisite. It gets even worse when you throw in the BP/XP divide, because there are some merits that can only be bought with BP, but buying leveled merits with BP is better than buying them with XP.

In order to get Resources 5, you have to have Resources 4. But you can buy Artifact 3 without having Artifact 2 beforehand.
 
Yes, it's mediocre and not very memorable (which is why I don't remember whether I skimmed or fully read it), and yes it has hints of Abrahamic memes, but that's hardly a big deal after to choosing a very religiously loaded word (Demons) in the first place (which happened long before Infernals). The rageful reactions seems disproportional to me. Why does it burn so strongly?

This is actually pretty easy to explain: Lillun.

More expansively: Exalted is a game/setting that tried not to pull punches about it's subject matter. It was a fairly pragmatic, realistic view of things People Did to People. We had an entire book (Manacle and Coin) written about slavery in Creation and the drug trade, couched in largely objective terms. It relied on the players to understand that it was a factual dissection and allusion to real world practices that they could use in their game.

Also economy and such was Geoff C. Grabowksi's baby, so a lot of his love for the subject of money and trade made it into the book.

As for Lillun- she is the Phylactery-Womb, the device which holds the Infernal Exaltations between incarnations. She is- objectively- horribly written. Her entire existence is based on shock value and lack of understanding of nuance and the core themes of Exalted.

Chapters 1 and 2 of MoEP Infernals were written without oversight or communication, based on guidelines that resulted in "All the Yozis will have sex with their new Infernals" and eternal-child-exalted-vessel.

The criticism here, is that this is schlock, obnoxious and plain bad writing. There's no nuance or anything to grab the player- it's depravity for the sake of depravity, and that is badly handled. CoCD: Underworld had a similar problem, where the writers misinterpreted 'Underworld' as 'place of punishment'.

To that end, there is a ghost-run brothel where male rapists (and only male rapists) are taken in, emasculated, reshaped into beautiful women, and then their genitals are forged into soulsteel chains that force them to feel and act out whatever emotion their client wants.

I don't know about you, but I don't find that cool, edgy or evocative. I find it painfully overwrought. There are a number of ways that could have been handled, and ideally, they would have been handled much more maturely.

Basically- Exalted has across its entire existence not merely as an edition thing- a hit/miss approach to Maturity. Sometimes it's a 13-year old's grasp of the concept, other times it's the insight of a university graduate.

I do understand and approve of creating interesting inspirational settings and elements to spark the imaginations of players and storytellers. I also understand the value of giving something people can rage against- because the horrible things in Exalted exist for players to take a stand against.

I'm kinda relieved about @Shyft mentioning the "This is broken, and you're wrong for having fun with something that is obviously broken" attitude-impression issue (because this means I'm not being delusional, at least not completely), but I also feel that this applies no less, and probably more, to the setting than to the system.
If the system is so bad and the setting is so bad, but the ideas are so good, then why not take the ideas and make a different setting and pick a different system?

The system has issues. The setting is perfectly stable in wide angle. The core elements of the Primordial War, the Exalted, and the state of Creation in the 2nd age are all pretty much unilaterally accepted. It's the specific nuances that get trotted out from book A over book B.

To answer your question about new settings though, I point at why people so thoroughly bought into into 3rd edition:

In the first case, it was novel. People were able to engage with the system and set aside the burden of years of insight into 2nd edition. Exalted 2e is a 'Solved' game. as Revlid pointed out, we often take houserules or interpretations as self-evident. 3e allowed people to toss that out the window.

That, psychologically, is a huge burden released from a person's mind.

The second case, is that it was an official product. Arguments and debates about Exalted usually revolve around Accuracy and Canon- with some holdouts to specific houserule and fan projects. (see Kerisgame).

Let's take Terrifying Argent Witches as an example: Because it was not an official product, there is a psychological slant against it because you can't point to it as an Authority. It's credibility is only rooted in its own functionality and quality. An official product by named authors ? That's legitimate, and it becomes an authority to appeal to.

So, back to your question: Why do we stick with Exalted?

Because Exalted is already 90% done for us. I know that whenever I try to make a new game and setting, I have to actively avert making it like Exalted, because I so thoroughly enjoy that setting, that I cannot help but include elements from it or learned by it.

That 10%, or 20, 30, 50% - Whatever it is for an individual or person, the rest of it is good, and instead of trying to make something whole cloth, it's simply easier and more fun to use Exalted and fix it than it is to make the new setting.

That's my take at least.
 
The worst part about Lillun is that the concept of a Phylactery-Womb - a human transformed by the Yozi's into a repository through which all Infernal Exaltations are stored and prepared for their next Exaltations - could be made interesting. Instead of less than lowest-common denominator Oh Look At Me I'm So Edgy schlock. Imagine a cultist of the Yozi's, brought to the Demon City so as to serve her masters in some great mission, and her body is changed and warped into a great warped... thing. The specifics of what it looks like are not divulged, leaving it deliberately up to the ST as to the exact details of what exactly happened to her. But one thing is certain: She has been changed so fundamentally she cannot even really be called human anymore. Within her bosom lies the tainted Exalted Shards of the Infernals, as they course through her veins to prepare for the next sending. Her body is in unending agony, for peace is not a thing known in the Demon City. But she is in bliss, for she serves her masters in a grand endeavor, and within the great basalt tower of the Althing where the Pylactery-Mother resides, the demons come to pay homage to the Yozi's greatest creation. And she looks upon her Exalted Children with a twisted sort of motherly pride, as her children assemble every year to plan the Reclamation.

Even that boring ass piece of shit writeup is way more interesting and in line with how the Demon City really works than... that thing we got.
 
I'm a person with a big bunch of rules tinkering behind my back but . . . the latter actually sounds kinda horrible. The unacceptance of the no-houserules option. Not the preference for houserules. But the much more categorical stance.
Honestly, the reason it is such a thing is that playing RAW (with all the books add on) can very quickly turn into a exercise in frustration. To pick something I experienced myself, buying Willpower at char gen vs not buying it at char gen. I'll spare you the math, but it amounts to something like a 100xp difference, and Willpower is plugged into so many calculations that its a borderline idiots move not to buy it to 10. Which is intensely frustrating when you don't clue into this till after the fact (the ST let me rebuild my character to work around that). And then you get to things like Infinite (Ability) Mastery, where anyone that buys it is virtually untouchable by those that don't have it, the way people at higher essence were overwhelmingly powerful compared to people at lower essence (and people at different essence levels was very much a thing that happened, because its not immediately obvious what a jump in power it is and its really bloody expensive). A lot of this could conspire to make things not fun very quickly.

And yeah, it is kinda horrible. I don't think anyone was really happy with needing tons and tons of house rules (and errata) to play. But the alternative was very possibly getting caught in a trap, and either wrecking the game for everyone else, or having someone wreck the game for you. Quite possibly by accident. This is why basically everyone doesn't allow Scroll of the Monk or Scroll of Heroes to be used: leaving aside the blatantly and obviously broken SMAs (literal I win button charms are not good) quite a lot of the MAs were speed bumpy, kinda boring to use, and under powered. Or hilariously over complicated to the point of unusability: looking at you, ninja TMA style. Scroll of Heroes just generally made the system melt (favorite bit of cheese: take merit that lets you use Strength as opposed to Dex to make attack rolls, and then take a Warstrider. Enjoy your 20+ dice pools!) and had a lot of not very useful trap options on top of it. And not even the fun, fluffy trap options (such as the hive mutation. What does it do? No one knows, but damn it can be cool).

So yeah it sucks, but in general the other option can really sucks more in the long run. That said, I have seen people run straight 2e and have fun, though I find it telling that the general reaction was 'how the hell do you do that?' followed by all kinds of stories about shit that has gone wrong.
 
Last edited:
I'm a person with a big bunch of rules tinkering behind my back but . . . the latter actually sounds kinda horrible. The unacceptance of the no-houserules option. Not the preference for houserules. But the much more categorical stance.
Oh, it's pretty horrendous, yeah. None of us exactly like it. But realistically speaking, what's the alternative? I mean you can try to port it to a whole new system (people have, there was a FATE rewrite a few years back and probably others) but then you end up writing new material instead of editing existing stuff. In some ways that's even more work. Meanwhile, Exalted 2e is a mess but at least it's a mess there are already a lot of fixes and hacks for.

"I cannot escape this cage, so I build more bars to pass the time. This way, at least, the cage is my creation."
 
Last edited:
Here I was, about to come in here and say that I was quite happy with the setting as presented and never really changed it... then I read Revlid's post and realize that actually, no, I've just internalized my favorite house rules and lore changes to the point where I forget they aren't actually canon.

For example, the Silver Prince. Whenever he shows up or his influence is felt in my game, I always write him as though he genuinely believes in his philosophy. He genuinely does want to build a world where the dead and the living coexist, where the wonders of a lost age are restored to all Creation, and where all of this can be achieved with minimal suffering and primarily diplomatic means.

It's always a bit of a shock when I actually go back to the canon material and read about Island Five and the incredibly blatant mind control/genocide.

Eventually, I suspect the 3e writers and I will end up disagreeing on something and I'll wind up substituting in my own interpretation of part of the setting when I run things, but for now I actually really like what they've done. I even like the craft system, though I can see why others don't, and I positively love the expansion of the setting.

(Side note - the Immaculate Order in 3e is so excellent that basically every character I've written so far has been an adherent or otherwise positively inclined to it.)
 
Finally, the new Swinging tag creates multiple new tactical options!
Haven't read the rest, but holy shit, dude, brevity is a virtue. Channel it.

New Tag! Retrievable
This tag indicates a weapon with at least one weighted end attached to a Reaching, Flexible length, which can be hurled at any enemy before being tugged back to hand - examples include chain-sickles and grappling hooks. It may be used up to short range as a Thrown weapon, using the lower of its Weapon Accuracy bonus and its Thrown Range Accuracy bonus. Such attacks made beyond close range cannot benefit from the Grapple, Disarming or Flexible tags. Once thrown in this manner, the weapon's weighted end must be retrieved - either by reeling it in with a Ready Weapon action (pp. 196), or reflexively picking it up when the character moves into that range band. Should the martial artist move away without retrieving or dropping the weapon, it obviously follows behind him, one range band behind - this is important for lassos.

That's the same content, near as I could tell. Seems a little overcomplicated to me, but maybe there's some tactical advantage to a tag that boils down to "short-range Thrown weapon, but with worse accuracy and you need to keep taking turns to pull it back to you". For the life of me, I can't figure out why I'd use a Yo-Yo over, say, a regular Chakram. Ammo is a question of stunts, so that's hardly a problem even before Charms get involved, and the need to draw a Melee weapon for close-up clashes is irrelevant because I'm spamming Draw/Ready for the yo-yo anyway. Precision of the Striking Raptor doesn't even work with the yo-yo, and all its unique tags are invalidated if I actually use it the way this tag suggests.

I'm also not sure why Disarming is invalidated, given that was the actual purpose of these sorts of weapons - tangle your enemy's sword-arm with a thrown, weighted chain, and you've got still the bladed end in another hand...
 
Last edited:
Hmm. Neutrality. Unexpected and admirable.
I don't know if I'd describe it as neutrality. I have no idea what the positions are, or even what argument is being had here. I haven't bothered to find out. It's difficult to hold an opinion in such conditions, though god knows some people still manage.

Speaking of Infernals, I have either skimmed or read the first two chapters, and I don't get why it received such a backlash. Yes, it's mediocre and not very memorable (which is why I don't remember whether I skimmed or fully read it), and yes it has hints of Abrahamic memes, but that's hardly a big deal after choosing a very religiously loaded word (Demons) in the first place (which happened long before Infernals). The rageful reactions seems disproportional to me. Why does it burn so strongly?
"Demon" is hardly an Abrahamic term, but it was chosen specifically to create dissonance between the reality of the setting and the popular ideas it evoked. This is why the two most well-exposed demons are a big red horned ape-monster, and a "succubus".

The backlash against the first two chapters of Infernals stems from... well. The constant and mandatory rape of everyone and everything. The reduction of Yozis from interesting, eldritch entities into one-dimensional moustache-twiddlers gathered in an Evil League Of Evil. The fact that your character is raped and brainwashed as part of their origin story. The sheer stupidity of the Reclamation Plan. The occasional, poorly-conceived dips into mechanics. The fact that your character by default routinely rapes and mocks a corpulent, demon-infested (and illustrated) child. The fact that your bosses can send you into endless ST-controlled madness whenever they like, an idea that hasn't got any fresher since Abyssals. More rape. Akuma are presented as fairly dull programmed robots. Uninspiring Yozi assault plans on Creation - Malfeas wants to rape Ma-Ha-Suchi to death. A lot of rape.

The Charms and Storytelling chapters are exercises in demonstrating how your character can turn their cool demon-lord toys to their own ends, and outwit or abandon their hateful masters to strike out as hero or villain on their own terms. The first two chapters are dedicated almost exclusively to robbing every single Infernal of their agency, PCs included.

...

As for why people ignore 2e canon so consistently and fervently, it's something you see in a lot of fandoms where the original conceit was solid and interesting, and there's a core of great material that can be admired and pointed to as halcyon days, but there's also a huge layer of shit on top. A change in creative staff along the way also helps, regardless of whether or not they were actually responsible. Have you never heard the phrase "Zombie Simpsons", or cracked a joke about how there was only one Matrix movie, or met someone who declared that later Silent Hill games didn't count and what they revealed about the town wasn't real? It's entirely the same thing.
 
Last edited:
Haven't read the rest, but holy shit, dude, brevity is a virtue. Channel it.
Sorry. Was too eager to finally have it finished to properly edit it down for word count.


New Tag! Retrievable
I was rethinking the name, though I was going with "Tethered".


This tag indicates a weapon with at least one weighted end attached to a Reaching, Flexible length, which can be hurled at any enemy before being tugged back to hand - examples include chain-sickles and grappling hooks. It may be used up to short range as a Thrown weapon, using the lower of its Weapon Accuracy bonus and its Thrown Range Accuracy bonus. Such attacks made beyond close range cannot benefit from the Grapple, Disarming or Flexible tags. Once thrown in this manner, the weapon's weighted end must be retrieved - either by reeling it in with a Ready Weapon action (pp. 196), or reflexively picking it up when the character moves into that range band. Should the martial artist move away without retrieving or dropping the weapon, it obviously follows behind him, one range band behind - this is important for lassos.
Thanks for that. I'll go over it more thoroughly later.


That's the same content, near as I could tell. Seems a little overcomplicated to me, but maybe there's some tactical advantage to a tag that boils down to "short-range Thrown weapon, but with worse accuracy and you need to keep taking turns to pull it back to you". For the life of me, I can't figure out why I'd use a Yo-Yo over, say, a regular Chakram.
"Roleplaying versus roll-playing", to be facetious.

Can't use a chakram with a yo-yo Martial Art, and the sorts of stunts you can pull are different even before adding Charms.

There are already some weapons in the core that, by themselves, are outright superior or inferior compared to other weapons in a purely mechanical sense.


Ammo is a question of stunts
I'd forgotten that this Edition does something different with ammo counts. Need to look into that, but it doesn't change my earlier point.


Precision of the Striking Raptor doesn't even work with the yo-yo
Precision of the Striking Raptor is a Solar Thrown Supplemental Charm which could never be applied to the Martial Arts-based yo-yo weapon.

And even if it could, it would be granting an additional point of Accuracy at short range, just as with any other light throwing weapon.


all its unique tags are invalidated if I actually use it the way this tag suggests.
Or you could use it at close range instead of short range, where all of its tags are valid.

Which you'd already need to be doing with similar weapons, like the urumi ribbon-sword, or the fighting chain, neither of which have any canonical ability to attack outside of close range.


I'm also not sure why Disarming is invalidated, given that was the actual purpose of these sorts of weapons - tangle your enemy's sword-arm with a thrown, weighted chain, and you've got still the bladed end in another hand...
Disarming is still possible within close range, allowing the weapon to fulfill its purpose. But striking out to short range should be putting the tether at its maximum length, so it can't actually entangle anyone or anything.

It can still be used for a Disarming attempt like any other weapon, but since all the yo-yo is doing at that range is HITTING, it wouldn't be any more effective than an un-tethered throwing knife.

If you think that tethered weapons should have enough length to use all of their tags even in short range, please let me know.


And thank you very much for taking the time to criticize me.
 
Last edited:
Quick question: Would you allow an Aim action to be used as part of an attempt at intimidation and how would you model it if you did? 2e, don't have 3e.

If there's no other rules for it, I'm thinking it could force a Valor roll: If the target fails, they get a (Valor) penalty to their MDV. If they succeed and ignore/counter the threat, they get a (Valor) bonus instead.
 
Quick question: Would you allow an Aim action to be used as part of an attempt at intimidation and how would you model it if you did? 2e, don't have 3e.

If there's no other rules for it, I'm thinking it could force a Valor roll: If the target fails, they get a (Valor) penalty to their MDV. If they succeed and ignore/counter the threat, they get a (Valor) bonus instead.
That's a stunt. I'd also give them, y'know, the Aim action, assuming they take the appropriate penalties for flurrying actions (Aim actions aren't allowed in flurries, RAW, but meh).
 
Note that there is an action for social aim. It's styled as a monologue, but that's a pretty simple alteration.
I think this is less of a monologue, and more along the lines of I ready my throwing knives or I nock an arrow or I bring my sword up in a lightning strike, pulling the blow at the last second so the tip of my blade hovers a hair's breadth away from their nose and growl "Do you feel lucky, punk?"

That would entirely be a stunt on the social roll.
 
I think this is less of a monologue, and more along the lines of I ready my throwing knives or I nock an arrow or I bring my sword up in a lightning strike, pulling the blow at the last second so the tip of my blade hovers a hair's breadth away from their nose and growl "Do you feel lucky, punk?"

That would entirely be a stunt on the social roll.
My point was that if you want something like the aim bonus for social roles then you should use the social version of the aim bonus. Otherwise, yeah, it's a stunt (though it can be both).
 
Just apply the Aim bonus to the Intimidation roll, either way its only a factor of roughly +1 success. Thats not something which requires much complexity paid into it, given how most attempts at combat intimidation will resolve against Dodge-MDV regardless.
 
This is actually pretty easy to explain: Lillun.

More expansively: Exalted is a game/setting that tried not to pull punches about it's subject matter. It was a fairly pragmatic, realistic view of things People Did to People. We had an entire book (Manacle and Coin) written about slavery in Creation and the drug trade, couched in largely objective terms. It relied on the players to understand that it was a factual dissection and allusion to real world practices that they could use in their game.

Also economy and such was Geoff C. Grabowksi's baby, so a lot of his love for the subject of money and trade made it into the book.

As for Lillun- she is the Phylactery-Womb, the device which holds the Infernal Exaltations between incarnations. She is- objectively- horribly written. Her entire existence is based on shock value and lack of understanding of nuance and the core themes of Exalted.

Chapters 1 and 2 of MoEP Infernals were written without oversight or communication, based on guidelines that resulted in "All the Yozis will have sex with their new Infernals" and eternal-child-exalted-vessel.

The criticism here, is that this is schlock, obnoxious and plain bad writing. There's no nuance or anything to grab the player- it's depravity for the sake of depravity, and that is badly handled. CoCD: Underworld had a similar problem, where the writers misinterpreted 'Underworld' as 'place of punishment'.

To that end, there is a ghost-run brothel where male rapists (and only male rapists) are taken in, emasculated, reshaped into beautiful women, and then their genitals are forged into soulsteel chains that force them to feel and act out whatever emotion their client wants.

I don't know about you, but I don't find that cool, edgy or evocative. I find it painfully overwrought. There are a number of ways that could have been handled, and ideally, they would have been handled much more maturely.

Basically- Exalted has across its entire existence not merely as an edition thing- a hit/miss approach to Maturity. Sometimes it's a 13-year old's grasp of the concept, other times it's the insight of a university graduate.

I do understand and approve of creating interesting inspirational settings and elements to spark the imaginations of players and storytellers. I also understand the value of giving something people can rage against- because the horrible things in Exalted exist for players to take a stand against.
I don't know about you, but for me Lilun did not live up to the expectations of a high shock value. Just another sign that someone in the making process was a spiteful nasty person; probably Malfeas. Another innocent suffering is bad, sure, but the setting already has loads and loads of Soulsteel and the like. I shrugged and went onward with the book. I did have moments in the past when books managed to shock or enrage me, and MoEP-Infernals is not one of them; moving on. But apparently people do rage against this book, and this is still puzzling.

The system has issues. The setting is perfectly stable in wide angle. The core elements of the Primordial War, the Exalted, and the state of Creation in the 2nd age are all pretty much unilaterally accepted. It's the specific nuances that get trotted out from book A over book B.
Hmm. The way I see it, few if any Exalted books go into specific nuances, and people do rage over the core elements of the setting. Such as the Realm. Or the Guild. Or the northern barbarian horde threatening to conquer creation like the Mongols threatened Eurasia.
For example of a fundamental change: shattering the Guild from a world-spanning organisation into a myriad mutually-incoherent gangs of merchant is about as drastic as taking the WTO from the 2100-era Transhuman Space (which totally shapes the way IP works in the setting), and replacing it with a myriad bickering state-level organisations that lack a coherent vision of IP. It's fundamentals-shattering, and potentially devastating for the global economy, particularly given that Creation is larger than Terra. It would require a total from-the-ground-up redesign. But apparently this is one of the things people want to do with the setting, and will not accept it as-written.
And apparently different, but equally drastic fundamentals-shattering sentiments are out there for other bits - the Realm, the North, the East, the Yu-Shan etc.

To answer your question about new settings though, I point at why people so thoroughly bought into into 3rd edition:

In the first case, it was novel. People were able to engage with the system and set aside the burden of years of insight into 2nd edition. Exalted 2e is a 'Solved' game. as Revlid pointed out, we often take houserules or interpretations as self-evident. 3e allowed people to toss that out the window.

That, psychologically, is a huge burden released from a person's mind.

The second case, is that it was an official product. Arguments and debates about Exalted usually revolve around Accuracy and Canon- with some holdouts to specific houserule and fan projects. (see Kerisgame).

Let's take Terrifying Argent Witches as an example: Because it was not an official product, there is a psychological slant against it because you can't point to it as an Authority. It's credibility is only rooted in its own functionality and quality. An official product by named authors ? That's legitimate, and it becomes an authority to appeal to.

So, back to your question: Why do we stick with Exalted?

Because Exalted is already 90% done for us. I know that whenever I try to make a new game and setting, I have to actively avert making it like Exalted, because I so thoroughly enjoy that setting, that I cannot help but include elements from it or learned by it.

That 10%, or 20, 30, 50% - Whatever it is for an individual or person, the rest of it is good, and instead of trying to make something whole cloth, it's simply easier and more fun to use Exalted and fix it than it is to make the new setting.

That's my take at least.
Oh, I do get the attraction of an 'official' statement on the setting. But apparently people did not accept the official statement on the state of the setting in 2e, and so I doubt they will accept it in 3e either. I've only heard things about TAW, but I get the impression that it's controversial largely due to an unpleasable fanbase. (Also, IME, people are quite capable of accepting unofficial fixes if there's a coherent unified vision and goals, and the fix is reasonably well-done/playable. So the slant against it [or any other unofficial fix] for being unofficial should not be overestimated, even though it should not be ignored either.)

And . . . I don't get the impression that Exalted is 50-90% done for the community. I get the impression that people want something called Exalted that resembles the original about as much as a typical film resembles the novel it was based on (e.g. the above point about the North, East, Realm and Guild and Malfeas and Underworld). That leaves it maybe 10-25% done/remaining, while everything else is changed by the fundamental changes.


"Demon" is hardly an Abrahamic term, but it was chosen specifically to create dissonance between the reality of the setting and the popular ideas it evoked. This is why the two most well-exposed demons are a big red horned ape-monster, and a "succubus".

The backlash against the first two chapters of Infernals stems from... well. The constant and mandatory rape of everyone and everything. The reduction of Yozis from interesting, eldritch entities into one-dimensional moustache-twiddlers gathered in an Evil League Of Evil. The fact that your character is raped and brainwashed as part of their origin story. The sheer stupidity of the Reclamation Plan. The occasional, poorly-conceived dips into mechanics. The fact that your character by default routinely rapes and mocks a corpulent, demon-infested (and illustrated) child. The fact that your bosses can send you into endless ST-controlled madness whenever they like, an idea that hasn't got any fresher since Abyssals. More rape. Akuma are presented as fairly dull programmed robots. Uninspiring Yozi assault plans on Creation - Malfeas wants to rape Ma-Ha-Suchi to death. A lot of rape.

The Charms and Storytelling chapters are exercises in demonstrating how your character can turn their cool demon-lord toys to their own ends, and outwit or abandon their hateful masters to strike out as hero or villain on their own terms. The first two chapters are dedicated almost exclusively to robbing every single Infernal of their agency, PCs included.
'Demon' is not of Abrahamic origin, but in the modern language it is heavily religiously loaded, with fire-and-brimstone-hell associations, to the point that even in WarCraft (which actually has a very rich setting for something that grew out of Tolkienesque fantasy) demonologists have hellfire-themed spells.
Mustache-twirling is meh indeed, but what else could one expect from an Antagonistbook? Infernals are essentially the Sabbat and the Baali of the Exalted universe, so authors write them like the Sabbat and the Baali.
I don't get why hate the reclamation-liberation idea - it seems logical that they want to use a hole in the contract in order to gain freedom.

As for why people ignore 2e canon so consistently and fervently, it's something you see in a lot of fandoms where the original conceit was solid and interesting, and there's a core of great material that can be admired and pointed to as halcyon days, but there's also a huge layer of shit on top. A change in creative staff along the way also helps, regardless of whether or not they were actually responsible. Have you never heard the phrase "Zombie Simpsons", or cracked a joke about how there was only one Matrix movie, or met someone who declared that later Silent Hill games didn't count and what they revealed about the town wasn't real? It's entirely the same thing.
That's the thing: it does not look like an original conceit getting 'ruined' by later additions*; it looks like the original conceit had many ideas which people wanted to cherry-pick, and then got angry when all the ideas (without their cherry-picking) got some development. E.g. Great Forks are more developed in 2e than in Scavenger Sons, but still the same city, and yet apparently people object to the way Forks are presented and want to change it in all sorts of ways.

* == The situation usually described as the Matrix Sequels/SW Prequels problem.
 
I don't know about you, but for me Lilun did not live up to the expectations of a high shock value. Just another sign that someone in the making process was a spiteful nasty person; probably Malfeas.

To put it bluntly, you're confusing your personal reaction and reception with my attempt at a critical analysis of Liliun/orgies.

My position is summarized as: "Does this painfully unsubtle, uninspiring description of the character and setting Malfeas engage me. Does it make me want to run an Infernals game, use Infernals, Malfeas or associated elements?"

My answer, based on the text is 'No'. The reason is because it approaches writing and audience tastes in a manner I find boorish, tasteless and generally reprehensible.

The result is that I, more often than not will change that aspect of the setting to simply have the minimum functional requirement to run a game. It, at a narrative level removes Agency, which is crucial to the idea of an Exalted game.

Player: "I don't want to be in a yozi orgy!"
ST: "Well, apparently you don't get a choice, because the Yozis say so."
Player: "Well... Shit."
 
Regarding Guild... Well.

As an ST, what should I do if my players want to infiltrate Guild, and I somehow have to work out just how exactly an organization of mortals managed to thrive and intentionally put glass ceiling for Exalt?
 
Mustache-twirling is meh indeed, but what else could one expect from an Antagonistbook? Infernals are essentially the Sabbat and the Baali of the Exalted universe, so authors write them like the Sabbat and the Baali.
I could expect something like the treatment the other corrupted Solar default antagonist splat got. Abyssals may have claimed that the only way you could be a good guy was by being an angsty loner, but it explicitly made room for that angsty loner good guy. That first section in Infernals claims that, nope, each and every Infernal is totally okay with a little girl being grotesquely tortured. Hell, they'll have sex-with-Lillun contests to prove which one of them is harder. This despite the fact that the demonic temptation they succumbed to could have been a sesseljae saying, completely sincerely, "Hi! I know you ran away when your skill with medicine could have saved people because you were too scared of getting the plague yourself, but I can help. My masters saw you and want to give you power so you never have to be afraid again. And I'll be with you all the time so I can help you fix everything that's sick and rotten with the world. It's my second favorite thing ever, after booze. You got any booze?" Yet apparently the group who accepted deals like that are less capable of being anything other than mustache-twirling, puppy-kicking monsters than the guys who signed up to kill the world and everything on it. That is bullshit.

Edit: Also, even in isolation it doesn't make a whole lot of sense for Infernals to always be super evil, on account of how demons aren't always super evil. The succubi types that are in all the corebooks, they don't want to corrupt people into carnal ruin or anything. They just want some spare bits of flesh to make weird babies with. And that shit goes all the way up to the third circles, the very souls of the Yozis. Jacint's malefic goal, the dark passion that drives him? Roads. All the dude wants out of immortality is to make a whole lot of awesome roads, and to have people go, "Wow, those sure are some awesome roads. Right on Jacint, have some prayer." Not exactly the stuff of nightmares there.
 
Last edited:
Regarding Guild... Well.

As an ST, what should I do if my players want to infiltrate Guild, and I somehow have to work out just how exactly an organization of mortals managed to thrive and intentionally put glass ceiling for Exalt?
If you haven't read Masters of Jade, start there. It's all about the Guild, and includes bits about how they deal with supernatural opposition.
 
Regarding Guild... Well.

As an ST, what should I do if my players want to infiltrate Guild, and I somehow have to work out just how exactly an organization of mortals managed to thrive and intentionally put glass ceiling for Exalt?
The answer is simple: They haven't, because they're not a monolithic organization.

Instead, being a Guild Merchant means that you're a trader with a Guild license. This license means you'll be recognized by most states (because otherwise they'd loose too much trade), and that you can use Guild facilities. Those facilities are not run centrally or anything - instead, they're set up by other Guild Merchants, and specifically cater to other Guild Merchants who favor such facilities.
There is some central organization - or rather, lots of local Guild Councils that mostly arbitrate disputes between Guild Merchants (major punishment being fines, or revoking/suspending of license) and negotiate trade rights with local rulers.

The Guild is an idea. An idea that happens to facilitate international trade, and is thus highly competitive. If you want local goods, a local non-guild merchant might have them cheaper. But if you buy at a Guild Merchant, you can expect not to be swindled too much (if you are, you could go to the Council). If it's not a local good - well, then you pretty much have to go to a Guild Merchant. Because almost all international trade is done by the Guild - because the license offers the passage rights necessary for it, and a Guild Merchant can get insurance for his ships/caravans, and because they have their own banking system which makes it easier to travel far. And because they actually have warehouses - so even if the Guild Merchant does not have it right now, it can be ordered and be there in only a few weeks, and in the quantity you want (as opposed to "well, we'd have to send an entire caravan and it'd be back in maybe a year or two").


How does that prevent the Guild from being taken over by Exalts?
Because there is nothing to take over. So you're an Exalt, and you're a merchant? Well, there is nothing to stop you from getting a Guild License. And with your powers, you'll out-compete most mortals. But guess what - that license means you have to play by certain rules. If you break those rules, no license for you. So you can put some other guild merchants out of business, but you won't destroy the Guild that way.

And if you're trying to destroy the Guild in another way? Well, it's an idea. The concept of trade cooperation under common rules. That's very hard to destroy. Even if you hunt down all Guild Merchants locally, and kill or out-compete them, it'll only displace the Guild in your area of influence. An area of influence that is now effectively cut off from international trade, or at the very least has a lower influx of goods at much higher prices. So if you're a ruler (and you have to be to do this), you've just hurt your economy really badly.
And eventually, some other Exalt will put you down. You're Anathema? Well, the Guild will just assist the Wyld Hunt - maybe even eating a loss for it - to bring you down. Maybe even with Sidereal support since there are certainly Gods who love having the Guild around. You're a Dragonblood, or some non-Anathema Exalt (Exigent maybe)? Well, the Guild will still support operations against you, and you'll only live so long too.

How is that opposition financed? Mostly by the richest guild merchants, who know that more free trade equals more profit for them.
 
Back
Top