Generally speaking, the sort of 'blind master' or 'blind warrior' characters in fiction are the ones that have surpassed those limitations. Take, for example, Toph Beifong: the fact she is blind slows her down for exactly no time at all. Or Daredevil, who other character note in verse he barely qualifies as blind. Or, to use a non-blindness example, Guts from Berserk: he's missing a hand, but thank to his prosthetic (that has a cannon in it) it hardly comes up as an issue. You can go on with examples from there. These are not character struggling with their disabilities, by and by large. If anything, its used to highlight their skill and ability: something that would cripple others is a inconvenience for these people.

So overall, inflicting penalties permanently on these characters strikes me as kinda missing the point. It's something used to highlight a trait of your character, which is roleplaying and can be really cool. If it just something your slapping on for more points and fully intend it will never come up in story, what the point?

(This is why I tend to like 'rewards for self induced failure' systems: it incentivizes people to make sub optimal role playing choices, which in turn lead to interesting places more often then not.)
 
There is no effective difference between "I have Perception 5 and suffer a -2 external penalty to Perception rolls" and "I have Perception 1."

There is a pretty big difference, actually.

An external penalty detracts 2 successes, but it does not adjust the dice. This means you can roll all tens (1 in 100 000 chance), leaving you with 8 successes, which is an impossible result for someone with 1 die to show. And depending on the interpretation of the rules this also increases the chance of botches, as you detract successes from the results.

If you're showing a one, well... that could be a botch, or if your ST is nice it's not because you had successes prior to getting that external penalty.
 
There is no effective difference between "I have Perception 5 and suffer a -2 external penalty to Perception rolls" and "I have Perception 1."
Yeah there is. The excellency cap, for one. And the fact that if you shorten "perception 5, but taking -2 external penalties due to blindness" to "perception 1" you can then get hit by a blinding attack for an actual -2 penalty. (Barring on-the-spot houseruling which would undoubtedly be forthcoming, obviously, but it seems like that's the kind of thing best gotten out of the way before the game actually starts.)
 
There is no effective difference between "I have Perception 5 and suffer a -2 external penalty to Perception rolls" and "I have Perception 1."
Blindness only applies to Perception rolls for sight. There is a significant difference - semantic and effective - between "I have Perception 5 and suffer a -2 external penalty to Perception rolls to see things" and "I have Perception 1."
Unless you think blind people can't hear or smell things, that is.
(Also, dice caps, bro.)
 
For what it's worth, 3E has Flaws too, and actually explicitly addresses the "Blind Swordsman" archetype.

The listed Flaws are all personal drawbacks - Addiction, Amputee, Blind, Deaf, Derangement, Mute, Sterile and Wyld Mutant.
Having a Flaw doesn't grant you any mechanical advantage, or any extra points for your character to build stuff with.
Instead, if your Flaw significantly impedes you, it can earn you "Expression bonus" SolarXP. However, that bonus can be earned in other way as well (interacting with your Intimacies), and you can only gain it once per session.

And it's interesting to note that they explicitly say that if you are not actually impeded by the flaw - such as a blind swordsman using Awareness Charms to get around that flaw - then you don't gain those SolarXP either. It also notes that there's still situations where those won't help - such as colour perception.
The same would go for circumventing other flaws - if you're sterile and use a Neomah to still have a child, no bonus. If you're Mute but use Poetic Expression Style, you'll get that bonus once you go outside the limits of that charm.


This seems like a good way to handle flaws - there's very little incentive to take them for the sake of extra BP or such, and you'll either circumvent them (in which case it only makes the character more interesting, but not weaker) or you won't, in which case it's still interesting.
 
For what it's worth, 3E has Flaws too, and actually explicitly addresses the "Blind Swordsman" archetype.

The listed Flaws are all personal drawbacks - Addiction, Amputee, Blind, Deaf, Derangement, Mute, Sterile and Wyld Mutant.
Having a Flaw doesn't grant you any mechanical advantage, or any extra points for your character to build stuff with.
Instead, if your Flaw significantly impedes you, it can earn you "Expression bonus" SolarXP. However, that bonus can be earned in other way as well (interacting with your Intimacies), and you can only gain it once per session.

And it's interesting to note that they explicitly say that if you are not actually impeded by the flaw - such as a blind swordsman using Awareness Charms to get around that flaw - then you don't gain those SolarXP either. It also notes that there's still situations where those won't help - such as colour perception.
The same would go for circumventing other flaws - if you're sterile and use a Neomah to still have a child, no bonus. If you're Mute but use Poetic Expression Style, you'll get that bonus once you go outside the limits of that charm.


This seems like a good way to handle flaws - there's very little incentive to take them for the sake of extra BP or such, and you'll either circumvent them (in which case it only makes the character more interesting, but not weaker) or you won't, in which case it's still interesting.

It also makes it really easy to make up new flaws. You don't have to figure out how many points they're worth, you simply have to declare the flaw and what it does - then, if it matters, you get the XP.
 
Flaw: Too damn awesome. His sheer egomania perfection causes mobs of torch and pitchfolk wielding peasants to spontaneously erupt around him.
 
All my characters take Wanted: 5 and Dark Secret 5 'Actually a soul sucking demon'!

Its how the game ends up anyway!
Yeah, the high-end Secrets are inappropriate in typical (non-rim) Exalted campaigns, because the characters already have a Secret.
However, in terms of enemies, things are not so clear-cut.
Consider:
A typical bank-robber who thus theoretically has FBI as her enemy vs. a bank-robber who also killed the FBI director's wife and so now the FBI director is likely to fudge things in order to direct more assets, attention, manhours etc. at searching for this bank-robber and killer specifically.

It's one thing to be an Anathema, and another to be the Anathema whose hunt Carjack Ketchup is personally overseeing and spending all of his free time on.

You can only benefit from one of the Expression conditions per session, meaning that it simply gives you extra options to get something that in all likelihood you would already get.

To be honest, having merits be a mixture of permanent traits and temporary conditions isn't the best idea. Maybe it would be over complicated to differentiate them in system though. As far as flaws go, I've generally been a fan of GMs have them be a mix of an obstacle and an opportunity that is it's own reward and plothook.
I did not know that Flaws occupy the same 'slot' XP-wise as some other things. That does mean that the overall impact of flaws is diminished proportionally, based on their contribution to the Expression condition.

I agree that mixing permanent merits and 'point-activated' merits can make things more complicated, and yet I've known two systems who have such a split in certain implementations, and they seem to work OK, judging by reactions. I do have to note that 'point-activated' merit-like traits are easier to balance in the sense that if I get an Ally, and then the GM proceeds to run several Stories where I can't call my Ally, then I get a point economy shift in my favour, instead of having a pre-paid-for Merit/Background lying around uselessly. And conversely, if I benefit a lot from some Merit (more than predicted at chargen), the point economy will adjust my advantage.

In general, I tend to think that pay-or-get-paid-as-you-go Merits/Flaws should be designed as part of the fundamentals of a system, not welded on as an afterthought like they were in Storyteller.

Your problem is you want extremely fine nuance in a game that renders every single musical instrument, as well as every single form of dance or acting or speech-making into a single Ability. [ . . . ] Exalted is an abstract system. It doesn't handle fiddly details well because characters are supposed to be omnicompetent.
Yes, my problem is definitely that I want nuance from game systems, even abstract ones. However, I disagree that ST/Exalted is an abstract system. It's a system with Ten Steps for combat, including a step explicitly reserved for counterattacks, and two pairs of roll-reroll steps. It has rules for crippling various specific body parts. It differentiate between three social attributes. It differentiates between Parry MDV and Dodge MDV, and has case where you can use one but not the other. It also has specific rules for how to handle a social influence if it's a surprise for the target. It has a specific die-rolling difference between damage rolls and success rolls, even though it's supposedly based around the same X dice vs. TN7 engine.
No, Exalted is a very concrete and detailed system that just happens to have gaps in some spots (such as musical instruments).

Actually, good point. There's an assumption going unquestioned here, and that's "Your character should be rewarded for being blind in other ways".

Because, really, what a character being blind is represented as "You have a Crippling effect on your eyes, vision rolls are inapplicable". And that means you have to go and learn "hearing" specialities for Awareness, because you have to learn to try to cope with other senses and difficulties are higher with other senses so you need every edge you can get. The archetypical "blind master" in Exalted is either someone who is blind and thus is legitimately handicapped and recieves nothing in compensation, because holy shit they're blind, that sucks, your Solar doctor might want to fix that - or they're someone with Charms who is using them to negate the blindness penalty and thus it shouldn't be a flaw anyway.
In a pre-paid point-buy system, I fail to see why "holy shit they're blind" receives nothing in compensation, but "holy shit they're clumsy" (which is Dex 3-4 in a typical Exalted combat, it seems) receives the compensation in the form of being able to spend those points on e.g. Appearance by changing attribute prioritisation.
I do get the sort of blind master archetype who essentially trades away the ability to perceive colour in exchange for a 360° sonar - it's a sort of tradeoff that can at least theoretically be worth no points in either direction.

Like, bluntly, they're 5m for the pair of them, and both charms are reflexive. Just talk to your GM and go "yo, can we just call them effectively Indefinite because, seriously, I can literally stunt back the cost in two actions, I'm making a note on my character sheet to say that I have them active all the time so just have the 5m committed permanently".
I'm pretty sure in practice it's more like 5-10 motes down in the pool, all the time. Because IME it's not possible to constantly pull off 6 motes worth of stunts in every Scene, particularly in a fast-paced campaign. I'm saying this because I'm examining whether I'll be able to keep some scenelong charms up 25/7 with stunts, and my impression so far is that pulling 2-3 Stunts each and every Scene can put a strain on the game's pacing. Not always, but during the more intense investigation and travel sequences with common Scene transitions.

I actually kinda hate Scenes as a concept, because they force metagame considerations on character actions, e.g. I once had to put up I(A)M in advance, and I accidentally almost put it up at the very end of Scene A only to have it turn off thirty seconds later. (Luckily, the GM was willing to retcon the activation time to immediately post-Scene-transition.)

For what it's worth, 3E has Flaws too, and actually explicitly addresses the "Blind Swordsman" archetype.

The listed Flaws are all personal drawbacks - Addiction, Amputee, Blind, Deaf, Derangement, Mute, Sterile and Wyld Mutant.
Having a Flaw doesn't grant you any mechanical advantage, or any extra points for your character to build stuff with.
Instead, if your Flaw significantly impedes you, it can earn you "Expression bonus" SolarXP. However, that bonus can be earned in other way as well (interacting with your Intimacies), and you can only gain it once per session.

And it's interesting to note that they explicitly say that if you are not actually impeded by the flaw - such as a blind swordsman using Awareness Charms to get around that flaw - then you don't gain those SolarXP either. It also notes that there's still situations where those won't help - such as colour perception.
The same would go for circumventing other flaws - if you're sterile and use a Neomah to still have a child, no bonus. If you're Mute but use Poetic Expression Style, you'll get that bonus once you go outside the limits of that charm.

This seems like a good way to handle flaws - there's very little incentive to take them for the sake of extra BP or such, and you'll either circumvent them (in which case it only makes the character more interesting, but not weaker) or you won't, in which case it's still interesting.
This is something that I've found an interesting and complicated question in systems with get-paid-as-you-go handling of flaws (nWoD and FATE Core). Specifically, the line between being impeded and overcoming it, and simply overcoming the impediment and thus not being impeded.
A blinded swordsman having to deal with the -2 External Penalty (or -4 internal) or having to spend 20XP on learning Keen Hearing and Touch and 3m per Scene (to halve the penalty) is suffering for his flaw: he's forced to spend 20XP on stuff that a seeing swordsman would spend on quicker getting to a Perfect Defense or something, he's constantly 3-6 motes down his pool, and is still at -1 External or -2 Internal in combat and other situations. But if that doesn't count even as a triggered flaw each session where any of the above impediments occur, then it means people are strongly discouraged from taking flaws like that.
People build parts of their lives around their flaws. E.g. me being bad at understanding how people think influenced what sort of things I tried to study and the sphere of work I ended up in, and it is why I tend to regularly ask questions whose answers might seem obvious to others. It also screws up team coordination in MOBAs if the team I'm in also happens to contain a member who tends to say tactically significant things ironically.
For something less obvious, I have a rather dulled sense of smell, which also influences my daily life: being unable to figure out non-strong scents without being quite close and conscious effort, I tend to do things such as opening windows based on a routine schedule as opposed to the state of the air in the room, which causes some raised eyebrows e.g. from people who try to keep windows closed in Winter unless it's definitely necessary to open them. In GURPS, that would be a -1 Quirk (the smallest possible flaw cost, perhaps comparable about 1/10 to 1/5 of a Freebie Point in Storyteller); in oWoD, it would be below the system's resolution; in nWoD/Ex3, I'm not sure how it would be handled - probably a Flaw that only rarely gives XP, because the GM wouldn't count most of its phenomena as impediments.

It also makes it really easy to make up new flaws. You don't have to figure out how many points they're worth, you simply have to declare the flaw and what it does - then, if it matters, you get the XP.
Definitely a big plus. As long as the 'does it count as impeding the character today' question is easy to answer (above).
 
Yeah, the high-end Secrets are inappropriate in typical (non-rim) Exalted campaigns, because the characters already have a Secret.
However, in terms of enemies, things are not so clear-cut.
Consider:
A typical bank-robber who thus theoretically has FBI as her enemy vs. a bank-robber who also killed the FBI director's wife and so now the FBI director is likely to fudge things in order to direct more assets, attention, manhours etc. at searching for this bank-robber and killer specifically.

It's one thing to be an Anathema, and another to be the Anathema whose hunt Carjack Ketchup is personally overseeing and spending all of his free time on.

I'd love to have Ketchup spend all his time trying to kill me. Makes the game much more fun, especially if I'm playing the type of Infernal who deliberately uses him to vent limit at every occasion. Of course I wouldn't have gotten that from any Flaw, I'd have gotten it because I'd turned one of his favorite Young Sidereals into a piece of art only the Ebon Dragon could love.

Then sorcerously filled the hall of heavenly records with his death screams.
 
I'm pretty sure in practice it's more like 5-10 motes down in the pool, all the time. Because IME it's not possible to constantly pull off 6 motes worth of stunts in every Scene, particularly in a fast-paced campaign. I'm saying this because I'm examining whether I'll be able to keep some scenelong charms up 25/7 with stunts, and my impression so far is that pulling 2-3 Stunts each and every Scene can put a strain on the game's pacing. Not always, but during the more intense investigation and travel sequences with common Scene transitions.
Then, bluntly, I think your group is adjudicating stunts wrongly. Most of us generally take it for granted that you're pulling off 2-dot stunts every action, because the rules for 1- and 2-dot stunts are objective, binary and extremely easy to satisfy.

A 1-dot stunt is the difference between "I attack them," and "I chop at them with my daiklave." A 2-dot stunt is as above, but somehow acknowledging or incorporating the environment into your description. That's all it requires. "I throw sand at him, then chop at him with my daiklave," is a 2-dot stunt. "I dig my heels into the cavern floor and take a running start to jump the chasm," is a 2-dot stunt. "I compliment the sunrise tapestry of the lords castle before trying to convince him to help me," is a 2-dot stunt. "I stomp hard enough to throw up a dust cloud and throw off my opponents aim," is a 2-dot stunt.

This is a deliberate and intended part of the rules. Stunts aren't supposed to be lengthy or strain the pacing of the session; they're entirely meant to be short and sweet, both because brevity is the soul of wit, and because parceling out frequent, regular rewards is an excellent way to coax uncertain players to get into the swing of roleplaying a character.

Now, granted the rules in the corebook could be clearer about this. There's a somewhat confusing divide between 1- or 2-dot stunts, which are very easy to do and can be clearly adjudicated, and 3-dot stunts, which are supposed to be difficult and more squishily adjudicated. The listed examples are also quite a bit longer than actual stunts need to be, because the examples have to set the scene where in-play stunts usually happen once the scene has been set.
 
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Then, bluntly, I think your group is adjudicating stunts wrongly. Most of us generally take it for granted that you're pulling off 2-dot stunts every action, because the rules for 1- and 2-dot stunts are objective, binary and extremely easy to satisfy.

A 1-dot stunt is the difference between "I attack them," and "I chop them with my daiklave." A 2-dot stunt is as above, but somehow acknowledging or incorporating the environment into your description. That's all it requires. "I throw sand at him, then chop him with my daiklave," is a 2-dot stunt. "I dig my heels into the cavern floor and take a running start to jump the chasm," is a 2-dot stunt. "I compliment the sunrise tapestry of the lords castle before trying to convince him to help me," is a 2-dot stunt. "I stomp hard enough to throw up a dust cloud and throw off my opponents aim," is a 2-dot stunt.

This is a deliberate and intended part of the rules. Stunts aren't supposed to be lengthy or strain the pacing of the session; they're entirely meant to be short and sweet, both because brevity is the soul of wit, and because parceling out frequent, regular rewards is an excellent way to coax uncertain players to get into the swing of roleplaying a character.
Maybe, or maybe not. A canonical example of a 1-die stunt is "Anoria snaps her razor-fan open with a soft click across the guard's throat. She then watches over its bloody edge as
he collapses in a gurgling heap at her feet.", which is a two-sentence stunt and seems to imply that "I chop them with my daiklave" is not enough. Also, if "I sharpen my ears" used over and over and over again instead of "I activate Keen Hearing and Touch Technique" is legit, then suddenly Cults, Hearthstones and other mote-regenerating goodies are worthless. (Stunt levels decaying is also a consideration.) Third, I think I read somewhere that Stunting should only be rewarded when it matters - tying one's shoelaces allegedly isn't supposed to grant motes back.

Sure, I suppose it's possible to appeal to the literal reading of 'is not just an I Attack Him' variant, but that seems wrong, as it implies that. But the example 'how to do it' in the book seems to be not that short - in fact they all seem to be rather poetic. Plus, having an extra modifier added to 99% of all actions seems like a counterintuitive design.
 
Maybe, or maybe not. A canonical example of a 1-die stunt is "Anoria snaps her razor-fan open with a soft click across the guard's throat. She then watches over its bloody edge as he collapses in a gurgling heap at her feet.", which is a two-sentence stunt and seems to imply that "I chop them with my daiklave" is not enough.
True. It also says the following, though;
Players should note that the preceding examples set the scene as well as providing the action. In the first, the stunt is the description of the attack as something more than "I hit him." In the second, the stunt is Anoria's use of the wall as a springboard and arranging for her opponents to crash together. In the final, it is her audacity to perform acrobatic feats while perched on her enemy as she sets him up to expose his one point of vulnerability. During play, the Storyteller should have already set the scene by the time a character acts, so a stunt does not need to be a five-minute narrative. Without exception, short and flowing is always better than long and clunky. Merely stringing adjectives and adverbs together isn't good enough. The description must be interesting, without interrupting the flow of play.
As I said, the listed examples are longer than actual stunts need to be, because the examples have to set the scene where in-play stunts usually happen once the scene has been set. This is, in my opinion, a flaw of the corebook; it would have been better to give the rules for all three types of stunt, then provide one longer example so the scenesetting and stunts could be clearly separated. As it is the rules are there, but the way they're laid out has misled a lot of people into your position.
 
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True. It also says the following, though;
As I said, the listed examples are longer than actual stunts need to be, because the examples have to set the scene where in-play stunts usually happen once the scene has been set. This is, in my opinion, a flaw of the corebook; it would have been better to give the rules for all three types of stunt, then provide one longer example so the scenesetting and stunts could be clearly separated. As it is the rules are there, but the way they're laid out has misled a lot of people into your position.
Hmm. Indeed, now I that pay more attention to those other guidelines, your PoV seems more appropriate. Still, the other factors remain. Namely, the need for it to be interesting and not routine, the need to be balanced against Hearthstones and Cults, and the fact that adding a modifier to a roll is normally only done when it's worth paying attention to.

I guess a balanced position between the extremes is a bit tricky to find.
 
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"Interesting and not routine" I'll grant you. This is part of the point of stunts, in my view; encouraging players to keep looking for small things they can add into their description. Essentially, to constantly innovate with their character - this is a good thing, in my view.

Hearthstones and Cults... You can balance that by being more more sparing with stunts when there isn't some kind of hectic encounter going on, but if I'm honest I'll take frequent stunts over extra importance for Hearthstones and Cults. I find frequent stunts help the tone of the game far more.
 
Hmm. Indeed, now I pay more attention to those other guidelines. Still, the other factors remain. Namely, the need for it to be interesting and not routine, the need to be balanced against Hearthstones and Cults, and the fact that adding a modifier to a roll is normally only done when it's worth paying attention to.

I guess a balanced position between the extremes is a bit tricky to find.
Cult isn't that balanced, to be honest. Hearthstones are... ehhh. Most of the powers are either meh or broken. The drip is okay but probably needs reworking... honestly, a lot of Backgrounds need a bit of an overhaul. Canon Familiar is a good example; it's shit. The differences between the various Contacts/Spies/Retainer/Follower/Ally are poorly mechanised and in some cases not very well fluffed; Influence and Reputation don't seem to actually do anything mechanically, presumably because they forgot to include mechanics for them...

Basically, as may be coming apparent from all the times you mention a good, perceptive point and we have to go "yeah, tbh, that bit isn't very well written because of XYZ", Exalted is one of those games with a really gorgeous concept and a lot of amazing ideas, but about six million different holes and generally bad writing in quite a lot of places if you squint a bit or, you know, pay any attention at all. The combat system is ridiculously granular and intensive; the social system barely exists, the mass combat system is a hunk of useless pudding, the empire-building and diplomacy system got lost on the way to the publishing office and is stranded in Nambia trying to find its luggage, and the chargen system is in hospital with a terminal case of xp/bp divide. The traits and stats are often holdovers from a WoD Storyteller system that, bluntly put, was made more for street-level horror than epic world-shaking heroes, the Charms had to patch a lot of holes that the base system forgot to fill in, and the NPC writeups vary between "this person should be dead already" and "invincible". It has a worse elder problem than Vampire, where the stagnant rule of the elders dominating their younger children is half the point of the game, the lethality problem that has plagued it since 1e makes combat a solvable and fairly dull field full of landmines, and years of bad editing and quality control has led to multiple releases of things like Scroll of Heroes, Scroll of the Monk and Infernals chapters 1 and 2, which were written by people who missed fairly essential themes and elements of the line and then published anyway to meet deadlines.

All that said, the core concepts of the game and some of the original fluff it was pitched on and which was later expanded on without having a truck driven through it (especially Games of Divinity and Scavenger Sons, which are both gorgeously, gorgeously written introduction-to-the-setting sourcebooks) have so captivated fans of the line that we still love it for all its faults and spend long hours writing up fixes and hacks and homebrew patches for it. So, you know, it certainly got some things right.
 
Cult isn't that balanced, to be honest. Hearthstones are... ehhh. Most of the powers are either meh or broken. The drip is okay but probably needs reworking... honestly, a lot of Backgrounds need a bit of an overhaul. Canon Familiar is a good example; it's shit. The differences between the various Contacts/Spies/Retainer/Follower/Ally are poorly mechanised and in some cases not very well fluffed; Influence and Reputation don't seem to actually do anything mechanically, presumably because they forgot to include mechanics for them...
(And @Imrix too...) Uh, I get that HS powers range from the useless to the awesome, but what's so unbalanced about Cult? At a second-level Cult you get +50% mote regen rate throughout the day (not counting Stunts, that is), which means you can spend about 60 more motes per walking day during your downtime projects. That feels about comparable to, say, Resources 2, in terms of usefulness. At the fifth level, it adds +150% to mote regen, which is, again, about comparable to Resources 5 or other backgrounds. (Frankly I'm inclined to judge all backgrounds by comparison to Resources. Artifact would be good to judge by too if not for the extreme differences between the cool and the meh artifacts of identical levels.)

Basically, as may be coming apparent from all the times you mention a good, perceptive point and we have to go "yeah, tbh, that bit isn't very well written because of XYZ", Exalted is one of those games with a really gorgeous concept and a lot of amazing ideas, but about six million different holes and generally bad writing in quite a lot of places if you squint a bit or, you know, pay any attention at all. The combat system is ridiculously granular and intensive; the social system barely exists, the mass combat system is a hunk of useless pudding, the empire-building and diplomacy system got lost on the way to the publishing office and is stranded in Nambia trying to find its luggage, and the chargen system is in hospital with a terminal case of xp/bp divide. The traits and stats are often holdovers from a WoD Storyteller system that, bluntly put, was made more for street-level horror than epic world-shaking heroes, the Charms had to patch a lot of holes that the base system forgot to fill in, and the NPC writeups vary between "this person should be dead already" and "invincible". It has a worse elder problem than Vampire, where the stagnant rule of the elders dominating their younger children is half the point of the game, the lethality problem that has plagued it since 1e makes combat a solvable and fairly dull field full of landmines, and years of bad editing and quality control has led to multiple releases of things like Scroll of Heroes, Scroll of the Monk and Infernals chapters 1 and 2, which were written by people who missed fairly essential themes and elements of the line and then published anyway to meet deadlines.

All that said, the core concepts of the game and some of the original fluff it was pitched on and which was later expanded on without having a truck driven through it (especially Games of Divinity and Scavenger Sons, which are both gorgeously, gorgeously written introduction-to-the-setting sourcebooks) have so captivated fans of the line that we still love it for all its faults and spend long hours writing up fixes and hacks and homebrew patches for it. So, you know, it certainly got some things right.
At this point I'm quite curious what of the things I mentioned count as 'good perceptive points'.
I do see a trend towards "yeah, tbh, that bit isn't very well written because of XYZ" in replies about . . . pretty much everything that gets looked into with anything closer than a passing inspection. And apparently anyone who's playing the game as-is, without houseruling both rules and fluff, is a vile abyssal anathema. Which is quite annoying, because people generally buy pre-made setting and systems in order not to have to write them on their own*. But aside from the aforementined annoyance factor, it's also very puzzling, because apparently there's this huge community of people who love to hate the game they play, from which I have to conclude that they (you, that is) actually like it this way. If only the cool ideas are cool, and nothing of the execution is worth it, then I don't get why people don't just grab the ideas and run away with them, implementing them into something that wouldn't be weighted down by all the flaws they hate/love to hate. (I mean, I've seen rules-tinkerers who love to make a myriad changes and fixes to GURPS, but apparently that's because they see GURPS as one of the systems which are close enough to what they want to achieve in the endstate. ST-Exalted seems to be something that is very far from what most tinkerers want to achieve, and in fact I'm not sure what sort of goals the makers of ST-Exalted as a system wanted to achieve by their choices of game engine and various changes to it; it basically looks like ST geared towards making more actions per cycle with a very slight reduction of die rolls for mortals.)

Oh, another weird thing: I was generally never of a high opinion of the Storyteller game system (and of the game engine on which is based in general), but I kinda tried to keep it quiet, coming to a forum/thread focused on an ST game. I'm surprised to see people express some of their dislikes for ST even harsher (though IIRC it wasn't you . . . maybe ES, not sure).

And yes, my first impression of Scavenger Sons is that it is kinda okay for an introduction, but not so much for actually making a character whose home is City-State X or running a game set in such a city.
* == Normally, I tend to do my own worldbuilding, and as a player I mostly participated in campaigns set in worlds built by the GMs personally. This time, the consensus wish was largely to just get an epic/heroic/mythic/high/legendary/etc. fantasy setting (and a system that is compatible with it) and start playing, without needing to write and read pages upon pages of house-rules-errata and house-fluff-errata in order to get a unified vision of the world we're gonna play in.
 
At a second-level Cult you get +50% mote regen rate throughout the day (not counting Stunts, that is), which means you can spend about 60 more motes per walking day during your downtime projects.
Yeah, but by the canon stunt rules, you can basically invalidate it by RPing whatever you're doing, so it's only useful in downtime offscreen segments, which... makes for a rather weird and disjointed discrepancy, where your motes are strictly limited offscreen but effectively infinite onscreen. It's why ES and I just went with the mote reactor anima hack for Kerisgame. Which leads onto my next point...
from which I have to conclude that they (you, that is) actually like it this way. If only the cool ideas are cool, and nothing of the execution is worth it, then I don't get why people don't just grab the ideas and run away with them, implementing them into something that wouldn't be weighted down by all the flaws they hate/love to hate.
... speaking strictly for my circle of friends; we don't like it this way, and that's pretty much what we are doing. Kerisgame is a testbed for our overhauls to the system.
And apparently anyone who's playing the game as-is, without houseruling both rules and fluff, is a vile abyssal anathema.
Quite the opposite. My opinion is that anyone trying to play the game as-is is getting ripped off, because they're being tossed into a minefield with no indication on which bits explode. They don't have my contempt, they have my sympathies. I know @Shyft likes to use the Rules As Written, and I have great respect for his attempt to try and hammer the sourcebooks into something not broken, though I do admittedly also think he's crazy for trying to do so. If you look back through the arguments @EarthScorpion, @Jon Chung, @Revlid and I make about Exalted, a consistent point that keeps coming up is "it doesn't matter if you can use Rule Zero to avoid these problems; they still fuck over newbies to the game who don't have the system mastery to know where they are in advance". We don't love to hate Exalted, we love it, hate the flaws and wish it didn't have them.
 
I know @Shyft likes to use the Rules As Written, and I have great respect for his attempt to try and hammer the sourcebooks into something not broken, though I do admittedly also think he's crazy for trying to do so.

Heh.

I think it's worth noting, that I actually prefer RAI as opposed to RAW, but the method to my madness is this: I need to understand the RAW to derive the RAI (if any). And once I have that, things make sense to me.

The broken parts don't magically fix themselves though- I'm not delusional, but I understand them in such a way as to improve my level of fun and the fun of other people. I dislike wholesale rules hacks because they destroy too many assumptions in broad strokes, making it too difficult to bring everyone up to speed. Changing the game is fine, mind you, but I've been trained for game design in a different method.
 
Yeah, but by the canon stunt rules, you can basically invalidate it by RPing whatever you're doing, so it's only useful in downtime offscreen segments, which... makes for a rather weird and disjointed discrepancy, where your motes are strictly limited offscreen but effectively infinite onscreen.
Unless you're playing a spirit/god/demon/deva, in which case Cult becomes amazing since it gives bonus dots and charms, and can let weaker ones not die unless they get hit with a spirit-killer.
 
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Yeah, but by the canon stunt rules, you can basically invalidate it by RPing whatever you're doing, so it's only useful in downtime offscreen segments, which... makes for a rather weird and disjointed discrepancy, where your motes are strictly limited offscreen but effectively infinite onscreen. It's why ES and I just went with the mote reactor anima hack for Kerisgame. Which leads onto my next point...
Well, offscreen can be not during the between-sessions downtime, but actually on a session when, e.g., the party is travelling. But yes, the discrepancy exists; it also apparently exists in 3e where entering combat suddenly boost mote regen speed, and so training duels are (unless there is some exception) the best way to 'rest'.

... speaking strictly for my circle of friends; we don't like it this way, and that's pretty much what we are doing. Kerisgame is a testbed for our overhauls to the system.
Perhaps my statement was a bit vague. Kerisgame seems to take not only the cool ideas, but also most of the setting that was derived from them, complete with the same NPCs and states. I must admit I haven't read it, so can't say for sure, but it sounds like the system is some sort of derivative of Storyteller too.

Quite the opposite. My opinion is that anyone trying to play the game as-is is getting ripped off, because they're being tossed into a minefield with no indication on which bits explode. They don't have my contempt, they have my sympathies. I know @Shyft likes to use the Rules As Written, and I have great respect for his attempt to try and hammer the sourcebooks into something not broken, though I do admittedly also think he's crazy for trying to do so. If you look back through the arguments @EarthScorpion, @Jon Chung, @Revlid and I make about Exalted, a consistent point that keeps coming up is "it doesn't matter if you can use Rule Zero to avoid these problems; they still fuck over newbies to the game who don't have the system mastery to know where they are in advance". We don't love to hate Exalted, we love it, hate the flaws and wish it didn't have them.
Hmm. Interesting. It just doesn't look like sympathy, it looks more like something almost opposite - kinda sorta like a subtle attempt to make us stop. Notably, whenever I quote something that is, you tend to reply with how it should be instead (I might be misremembering, but this probably applies to ES too). And/or cry and/or headdesk. All of this results in me getting an impression that you don't like knowing that somebody tries to use fluff/rules as written. Am I mistaken?

As for others you mentioned:
I really like @Shyft's essays because they don't make RAW-playing sound like something one should feel guilty/sorry about doing.
@Jon Chung seems to just point out the problems, but never the solutions. Approximately, I've seen him say "PDs are too cheap, so skip charms XYZ that provide defense", but never "...and so raise the cost of PDs to about 8 motes in order to make other defensive charms viable and thus eliminate the PD problem", for a smiplistic example. I do appreciate his analysis of possible 2E failstates, though I'm currently more in a search of, and could not find much info about the, 2½E failstates, maybe due to them being less examined (or maybe I'm bad at searching).
I don't think I quite understand @Revlid's position as of now, at least not anywhere near completely.
 
@Jon Chung seems to just point out the problems, but never the solutions. Approximately, I've seen him say "PDs are too cheap, so skip charms XYZ that provide defense", but never "...and so raise the cost of PDs to about 8 motes in order to make other defensive charms viable and thus eliminate the PD problem", for a smiplistic example.
That's because, bluntly, the lethality problem is baked in at the base level of the combat system. Raising PD costs just makes it worse, because now combat needs even more investment to not die and so non-combat characters can't survive at all. The solution for lethality, emergent from health levels, wound penalties and weapon damage as it is, is to redesign the whole combat system - even 3e recognised that, which is why they made a new combat system. Which is a pretty good one, even! Its main flaw is odd behaviour when multi-person fights turn up; for one-on-one things it's great.
 
Yeah. Chung has talked a bit about solutions to the lethality problem, and concluded that it can't be fixed without designing a new system from scratch, which he refuses to do without being paid a professional wage. Unfortunately, a lot of 2e's problems are like this, and people like me, Aleph, ES and Revlid kinda-sorta get by through gentleman's agreements, homebrew and avoiding the minefields.
 
That's because, bluntly, the lethality problem is baked in at the base level of the combat system. Raising PD costs just makes it worse, because now combat needs even more investment to not die and so non-combat characters can't survive at all. The solution for lethality, emergent from health levels, wound penalties and weapon damage as it is, is to redesign the whole combat system - even 3e recognised that, which is why they made a new combat system. Which is a pretty good one, even! Its main flaw is odd behaviour when multi-person fights turn up; for one-on-one things it's great.
The lethality problem is almost surely a sliding scale, where some people prefer D&D-ish HP-ablation, while others prefer ambushes and death spirals to be as lethal and nasty as in real life. It just gets augmented by the existence of artifact weapons and DPS charms.

Yeah. Chung has talked a bit about solutions to the lethality problem, and concluded that it can't be fixed without designing a new system from scratch, which he refuses to do without being paid a professional wage. Unfortunately, a lot of 2e's problems are like this, and people like me, Aleph, ES and Revlid kinda-sorta get by through gentleman's agreements, homebrew and avoiding the minefields.
This is something that I've always been curious about: why didn't he end up getting paid a professional wage?
I mean, back on SJGames forums, I've seen many a crunchy system critic ascend to become an on-and-off freelance writer for SJG. Some rised even higher, such as a de facto permanently-welcome freelancer, and even up to and including getting the Line Editor position.
So if @Jon Chung has the willingness and apparently the mathematical mind required for system design, why didn't WW/OPP and he reach a mutually beneficial agreement?
 
So if @Jon Chung has the willingness and apparently the mathematical mind required for system design, why didn't WW/OPP and he reach a mutually beneficial agreement?
Well, I can't pretend to speak for WW/OPP's hiring department, but the RPG industry is in a lot of ways as much or more about who you know than what. IIRC, hatewheel got his position pretty much because he was a close friend of Holden.

Jon was not a close friend of most of the devs. This may have had something to do with him pointing out all the flaws in the system repeatedly and at length, and then posting indisputable mathematical proof of them at people who argued that said flaws didn't exist until they gave up (case in point; Zeal).
 
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