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General Exalted Thread

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Also, RPG writing pays next to nothing - you do it out of love or not at all, basically. On top of that, for much of Exalted 2e's history the developer was a certain individual by the name of John Chambers who is, put bluntly, a complete incompetent. It's an open secret that he all but abandoned Exalted and exercised precisely nil developmental control over it, in favour of working Scion, which was his baby. Scion also turned out to be a fundamentally broken game, which should tell you everything you need to know.
 
I do have to say that, a pervasive attitude of the Exalted community almost anywhere usually boils down to "Don't do this because [Reasons]."

It's been true of pretty much every place I've ever been (all 2.5 of them). We all have our biases, and our leading 'movements' in interpreting the giant THING that is Exalted.

Like @vicky_molokh pointed out- A lot of discussion of the game and rules comes off as reeking of barely-veiled disdain or similar: "This is broken, and you're wrong for having fun with something that is obviously broken."

Most often it's honestly just a result of people having to repeat themselves.

I don't like Chung's methodology and approach to Exalted or game design, for example, but he's been engaged with people who ask the same questions and offer the same arguments repeatedly, sometimes hours apart in the same thread. for years now. Actual Years. Hell. Exalted 2nd edition was released in 2007. It's been nearly a decade. I got into Exalted in 2008-9.

I'd lose patience dealing with that too.

As mentioned, fixing Exalted comes down to either not enough reward for too much effort, or anything else. There is no simple fix. My approach boiled down to developing Rules as Intended or Rules as Interpreted- because I felt that was a better use of my time compared to rewriting an entire book and then making players read the original book plus my book. I like to think that I am a useful resource for people who do want to rewrite the game though.

Exalted 2.5 ended up like that. It didn't work too well now did it?

Even more fundamentally- you have to figure out what kind of game you want to make.

Like, there's rumbling of redoing combat as a one-roll resolution in Kerisgame. I can understand why that's being done because it makes sense, and the kind of game ES and Aleph are playing is better suited to that level of abstraction. They are happy with that. I don't think I would be.

Other people want a game where the combat system is 'flattened'. To where they never can laugh off any tier of opponent. And still others like me want a more robust Craft and Mass Social System, because those kinds of games interest me.

All of these desires and decisions in turn require you to make more decisions- and it all spirals out in a huge network of complexity that can be exacerbated by the nature of the design. Exalted is an Exception-based system, where Charms are by design intended to inject rules into the game or to waive limitations on in-game actions. So you need not only the base system and rules, you need room to create the Exceptions.

So 'fixing lethality' or the game in general. it can be done, but you have to decide how you want to do it. You have to accept that you can either approach the fix as Broadly Applicable or Specific to your needs.

Edit: you can tell I have six hours of sleep, can't you?
 
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Aleph said:
Jon was not a close friend of most of the devs. This may have had something to do with him pointing out all the flaws in the system repeatedly and at length, and then posting indisputable mathematical proof of them at people who argued that said flaws didn't exist until they gave up (case in point; Zeal).
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Better example: BP/XP split.
Because they're still pretending it's not a problem.

But when you show with math that it's broken (which is trivially easy), you get "oh, it's not actually a problem in-game".
If you then show how it's a problem in-game, then you get "oh, but we had this design goal". With the design goal presumably being to encourage specialization - which IS easy to do with flat costs. But then having scaling cost for some reason after character creation, which in turn encourages spreading out. And not being able to decide between either, or able to see that Exalted encourages specialization anyway due to charm prerequisites (you'll want ability 5 for those), or dice limits or just the fact that the system encourages you to be "the best" at something if you want to seriously compete at it.

Like...yeah, it's an obvious problem that just got utterly ignored. And it's not even a particularly difficult design obstacle, it's possible to throw together a better system in less than half an hour.
 
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Aleph said:
Just checked with ES, and I'm fine to post these. So:
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A couple of questions on the Pantheon charms:

How is Keris' Po soul active? Could her Hun and Exaltation be made active in this way? Why haven't they? Do previously created souls automatically exist when you learn Titanic Heart Overweening? If you summon a demon or deva and don't bind it, can it stay in creation indefinitely (allowing Keris to have a large number of souls capable of independent action in Creation)?
 
notanautomaton said:
A couple of questions on the Pantheon charms:

How is Keris' Po soul active? Could her Hun and Exaltation be made active in this way? Why haven't they? Do previously created souls automatically exist when you learn Titanic Heart Overweening? If you summon a demon or deva and don't bind it, can it stay in creation indefinitely (allowing Keris to have a large number of souls capable of independent action in Creation)?
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1) It's one of her souls, it's glutted on Primordial power, it's in the sanctum she made around her souls. It makes sense for it to be there. There are no mechanics behind it at the moment; it's just fluff and roleplay.
2) What exactly do you think the "Keris" who keeps going there is? Her hun soul is her conscious mind; her avatar there.
3) Her Exaltation is the anchor for the Domain - insofar as it appears there, it's already "active"; it's what the Domain is built on.
4) Not sure what you mean by "automatically exist". They don't stop existing, and she can refract them through a Principle to uplift them to 2CD level.
5) Same rules as for summoning demons, with the same drawbacks - if you don't bind them, nothing stops them from wandering off and doing their own thing. They're Principles externalised, which means the one made out of your love for your wife won't hang around with you, it will go off and try to do loving things for your wife. The one made from your hatred for Lookshy won't tag along with your campaign near Great Forks, it'll go off and try to destroy Lookshy. Etc.
 
Aleph said:
They're Principles externalised, which means the one made out of your love for your wife won't hang around with you, it will go off and try to do loving things for your wife.
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If you keep on neglecting her while you try to save Gem, it may try to seduce her and love her like you can't.

Exalt: *kicks down the door* "Nooooooo!"

Waifu: "He said he's part of you! I didn't think it counted as cheating!"

Deva: *lights a cigarette* "It doesn't, baby. I don't like him very much - but I love you."

Exalt: "You don't get to steal my wife! You are my love for my wife! I love her, not you!"

Deva: "I love her with every part of my self. You, on the other hand, slept with the Goddess of Gem."

Waifu: "... is that true?"

Exalt: "It's not like that! She was depressed and kept trying to kill herself and the city! I had to give her a reason to cheer up."

Deva: "Man, the parts of you that aren't me are such a sleezeball."

(This is why Primordial soul hierarchies most commonly resemble a telenovella.)
 
Aleph said:
4) Not sure what you mean by "automatically exist". They don't stop existing, and she can refract them through a Principle to uplift them to 2CD level.
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I meant do they automatically exist as 2cds, or do they have to be altered by the charm? Which you answered. Now I'm wondering what the refraction process would do to them, seeing as how they're already 'people,' in their own right. What would happen to Dulmea if she were refracted through 'Dulmea is my mama,' versus 'be loved,' for instance. How would you even exist with a Motivation of being your own mother (outside of certain fetishes)?

Yeah, in the version I'm going to use, I'll call the Coajutor and pantheon souls automatic 2cd's upon purchase of the charm, though you can still only let one out on the night of the New moon at a time, to make it feel less like mindraping a character.
 
notanautomaton said:
I meant do they automatically exist as 2cds, or do they have to be altered by the charm? Which you answered. Now I'm wondering what the refraction process would do to them, seeing as how they're already 'people,' in their own right. What would happen to Dulmea if she were refracted through 'Dulmea is my mama,' versus 'be loved,' for instance. How would you even exist with a Motivation of being your own mother (outside of certain fetishes)?

Yeah, in the version I'm going to use, I'll call the Coajutor and pantheon souls automatic 2cd's upon purchase of the charm, though you can still only let one out on the night of the New moon at a time, to make it feel less like mindraping a character.
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Well, strictly speaking, they aren't conscious at all by RAW. The personalities they've developed in Kerisgame? Those are the ones that the refraction process would give them, so they won't change when she officially bootstraps them up. That's why Haneyl is so possessive of her things; she's already drifted over to claim Keris's "Possessiveness" Principle. Ditto why Rathan holds grudges and keeps raining acid on her forests; he's developing along the lines of Keris's "Get Revenge".

If I were going to give them different Principles, I would be roleplaying them differently.
 
Dulmea, as a Coadjutor, is special- and I imagine Aleph and ES are going to say 'no' to summoning Coadjutors, for the same reasons they consider allowing others to enter the Devil-Domain bad design for a published Charm.

aka it allows killing access to an irreplaceable background.
 
vicky_molokh said:
I don't think I quite understand @Revlid's position as of now, at least not anywhere near completely.
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I don't think I have a position, as such?

My understanding of this discussion, from the occasional peeks I've taken as alerts have popped up, is that it's essentially driven by a "generation gap" between someone who has just started playing Exalted (or just joined its community) and people who are so familiar with the flaws and common houserules of the previous edition that they let them go unsaid.

Exalted fans have been living with an essentially unplayable game for years. They loved it, because it's ultimately a unique and compelling idea, but in terms of setting material, basic systems, and later mechanical widgets, there's almost no area that didn't have at least one steaming turd contaminating it. Where things can't be fixed (i.e. the "perfect or die" problem would have required rebuilding the entire combat system and several more besides), the community often assumes everyone knows it. Where things can be fixed, they've often forgotten the original material actually exists.

Perhaps the simplest example can be found in Infernal fans - they not only ignore the first two chapters of Infernals, they often outright forget they exist, in favour of developer statements and community consensus. I know someone who wholeheartedly recommended the book to a friend, only to be bombarded with accusations of trolling when they started the book at the beginning and read all of it - which you might think is a fairly normal way of reading a book.
 
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In the interests of writing certain Spider-based martial arts Styles and snake-based Artifact Evocations, I have adapted the following Martial Arts weapons and Restraining Thrown weapons from Second Edition to Third Edition!

Please let me know what you think.


CHAIN AND ROPE WEAPONRY
The fighting chain is only one example of a distinct subclass of martial arts weapons. Chain and rope weapons extend a combatant's reach. By whirling the end of the weapon, one can also build up greater speed and force before lashing out to strike. Chain and rope weapons tend to have the Reaching tag, with a range of 10 feet (or out to close range), with any greater distance requiring a Charm or a stunt.

Characters can also use these weapons to perform gambits for disarming and grappling, as well as stunts related to grabbing onto, swinging from, and pulling objects. On the other hand, chain and rope weapons do not function well in confined spaces; without a stunt, a wielder needs at least five feet on either side to swing the weapon, lest he suffer a -2 Accuracy penalty.

A fighting chain may be wielded with just one hand for simply lashing at an enemy, like a whip, but ropes generally require a heavy object affixed to one end for striking or entangling. Without a stunt, chains and ropes must be wielded with at least two hands to be used for grappling or disarming.

Without a stunt, rope weapons are useless for parrying. (It's hard to block an axe with a length of rope.) Chain versions of these weapons can parry like a fighting chain.

Finally, the new Swinging tag creates multiple new tactical options!


New Tag! SWINGING
This weapon may be used with a Swinging attack. This requires the use of at least two hands (or a stunt with just one hand). This tag is often found on chain or rope weapons with implements attached to at least one end, which allows them to be used as projectile weapons with a special retrieval method. The weighted end may be hurled at any target within short range, with the martial artist retaining a hold on the other end of the chain or rope. This hold allows the martial artist to use a Draw/Ready Weapon action (page 196) to reel his projectile back into his hands without needing to move into the range band where his weapon landed. Alternatively, the martial artist can reflexively retrieve his weapon whenever he moves into that range band. (Throwing the weighted end of a chain or rope weapon at a target in close range effectively becomes a matter of describing a stunt rather than divesting oneself of the weapon, and may enable other benefits; see below.) Should the martial artist move away from the end of his weapon without retrieving it, it will also move to follow him, one range behind. (This is especially important for lassos; see below). Chains without weighted ends cannot be thrown in this fashion, as they lack the mass that would give them the force to fly with such speed and range, let alone impact.

Swinging attacks are not compatible with Piercing, Smashing, or Chopping attacks at any range.

A Swinging attack beyond close range does not enjoy the effects of the Grapple, Disarming, or Flexible tags, and doesn't need the Reaching tag, though it can allow some weapons to enjoy such benefits for close range attacks.

Finally, the Accuracy bonus of a Swinging attack is always equal to the lower value between its Melee trait and the Thrown Accuracy bonus of the attack's intended range. Thus, a rope dart hurled at a target at short range adds the +3 range Accuracy to the attack roll rather than the weapon's melee +4 Accuracy, and a kusari-gama's sickle thrown at a target within close range adds melee +2 Accuracy rather than the +4 range Accuracy.


Yo-yo (Light, Melee)
As scholars of the fighting arts know, this popular children's toy began as a weapon used by certain tribes in the East, who used weights on cords to stun birds and small game, and weighted blades on cords to attack each other. Casting a yo-yo with sufficient force to inflict damage requires basic Martial Arts proficiency. Catching the bladed form without cutting off your own hand requires a little more. Additionally, the extended cord can be used as an improvised garrote, in a pinch.

Tags: Bashing or Lethal, Disarming, Flexible, Reaching, Grappling, Martial Arts, Swinging

Weighted Rope or Rope Dart (Light, Melee)
The weighted rope is less effective than the fighting chain, but easier to obtain: Just tie something heavy to the end of a rope. This weapon can also take the form of a sash, long sleeves or a weighted cloak-hem swung about to strike a foe—even a long ponytail bearing a heavy weight (though using such a form would definitely involve a stunt)—but such make-shift versions will suffer from the Improvised tag.

A rope dart consists of a small blade at the end of a rope or cord. The blade usually looks like a knife, but stylized claws and other forms also occur. The wielder whirls the rope so the blade slashes at foes, but many can also be taken in hand and used like daggers.

Weighted Rope Tags: Bashing, Disarming, Grappling, Flexible, Reaching, Martial Arts, Swinging

Rope Dart Tags: Lethal, Piercing, Disarming, Grappling, Flexible, Reaching, Martial Arts, Swinging; rope darts often have the Poisonable tag as well, and sometimes enjoy the Cutting tag when used with Swinging attacks

Kusari-gama (Medium, Melee)
This extremely versatile weapon is also known as a chain-sickle. It is a hand-scythe with a chain attached to one end, and a blunt weight attached to the other end of that chain. Attacking with the weapon usually entails swinging the weighted chain in a large circle over one's head, and then whipping it forward to entangle an opponent's spear, sword, or other weapon, or entangling his arms or legs. This allows the kusari-gama user to freely strike with the sickle; the narrow blade of which is good for striking between gaps in armor plate, or where a thick hide is thinnest. A kusarigama wielder might also strike with the spinning weighted end of the chain directly while still outside the range of an opponent's hand weapon, but mortal martial artists almost never throw the sickle end.

Sickle Tags: Lethal, Piercing, Martial Arts (or Melee, if used normally rather than swung), Swinging (not available when the weighted chain half is entangling something); (only when Swinging at close range) Reach, Flexible, Disarming; if removed from chain, Thrown (Short)

Weighted Chain Tags: Bashing, Martial Arts, Disarming, Flexible, Grappling, Reaching, Swinging; this half of the weapon cannot be used if the sickle half is entangling something

Chain Grimsickle (Medium Artifact, Melee)
The artifact version of the kusari-gama. Mechanically, it is practically identical, save for using the traits of a medium Artifact weapon.



THROWN RESTRAINING WEAPONRY
As the label suggests, these weapons are designed for two things: To be thrown at targets, and primarily to restrain those targets rather than harm them; only the bola actually deals damage upon impact.

For a character to use a thrown restraining weapon, her player makes a gambit with a dice pool of (Dexterity + Thrown). The gambit can be dodged or parried, but if the attacker has any successes left over, the target is restrained. Keep track of how many successes are left after subtracting the target's Defense. The restraint lasts until the target wriggles free—usually not long, since the attacker cannot usually exert her Strength to keep the target held. However, the attacker can use the actions in which the target is restrained to attack with another weapon, or to execute a normal Grappling gambit. It is easier to clinch someone who is already bound.

On his next turn, the target's player may take a Miscellaneous combat action (page 196) to try to escape from the restraint. He must succeed at a ([Strength or Dexterity] + [Brawl or Dodge]) dice roll, with a dice penalty equal to the attacker's number of extra successes. If he is embattled (page 197), the difficulty of the roll rises to 2. Failure means he's bound for another action, but the dice penalty drops by one after each attempt. So, for instance, if you catch someone in a net and score two successes above the target's Defense, the player of the target suffers a -2 penalty on his first roll, -1 on the second and no penalties on subsequent attempts. If a restrained target wants to flurry his attempt to free himself with an attack, his attack suffers the same dice penalty as his attempt to free himself.

Alternatively, one of the victim's allies can try freeing him. They must also take a Miscellaneous combat action, with a dice pool deemed appropriate by the storyteller given the method (Melee for a held knife, Thrown for a hurled knife, etc), though they suffer none of the victim's penalties for being restrained. They still find that being embattled raises the difficulty to 2.

Net (Light or Medium or Heavy, Thrown)
Throwing a net over someone is a good way to restrain him for a short time, and in mortal combat, a short time is all an attacker needs. Nets restrain the target's entire body, but loosely. The target can still try to fight, but he must use a flurry and he suffers further penalties for the restraint. Some nets are specially made with hooks or barbs to injure targets as they struggle to free themselves.

Using a net is a Grapple gambit (difficulty 3) where, the victim immediately suffers a full Restraining effect as if held in a normal clinch, even if he won the control roll (and is knocked prone from the weight, if the net is Heavy) on the turn it strikes, and then suffers a reduced Restraining effect for every turn he remains bound. This reduced Restraining effect merely prevents the target from taking movement actions (except to Rise From Prone) or flurrying, and applies a flurry penalty to any attempts to attack or Rise From Prone.

If the net is hooked, then all turns after the first drain the victim's Initiative; 1 point for light nets, 2 points for medium nets, and 3 points for heavy nets.

Light Net Tags: Grappling, Reach, Flexible, Thrown (Short), Special

Medium Net Tags: Grappling, Reach, Flexible, Two-Handed, Thrown (Close), Special

Heavy Net Tags: Grappling, Flexible, Two-Handed, Thrown (Close), Special

Bolas (Light, Thrown)
A bola consists of two to four weights connected by lengths of cord. You hold the bola where the cords join, swing the weights like a sling to build up momentum and then throw the whole contraption at a target. With a good throw, the weighted cords wrap around the target's limbs to restrain him. Tribal people sometimes use bolas to hunt animals and flightless birds.

Used as a normal projectile attack rather than a grappling gambit, the bola deals a small amount of Withering or Bashing damage when it hits, and then wraps harmlessly around only one limb or the target's torso, restraining him not at all. This attack may be Smashing, representing the target being stunned and unbalanced by a strike to the head, or tripped up by a strike to the ankles.

But when used with a successful projectile Grappling Gambit (difficulty 4), the victim immediately suffers a Withering Savaging action on the turn it strikes, and a special Restraining effect for each of his turns as long as he remains bound.

If his legs are bound together, he is knocked prone. Until he frees himself, he suffers a -2 penalty to his Evade and is forced to treat all terrain as difficult terrain. If he wishes to flurry the action to free himself with a Rise From Prone action, he must roll for both actions and suffers the typical flurrying penalty to both rolls.

If instead both of his arms are pinned to his body, he suffers a -3 penalty to any attacks or other actions reliant upon his arms, including the action to free himself, cannot use a weapon with the Two-Handed tag at all without a stunt, and suffers a -2 penalty to his Parry.

Reducing the gambit's difficulty to 3 will bind only one of the victim's arms to his body, for which he suffers a -1 penalty to any attacks or other actions reliant upon his arms, including the action to free himself, and a -3 penalty to use a weapon with the Two-Handed without a stunt.

The victim's weapon may be targeted as well, but by using a Disarming Gambit (difficulty 4).

Tags: Bashing, Grapple, Disarming, Flexible, Thrown (Short), Smashing, Special

Lasso (Light, Thrown)
A rope with a slip-knotted loop at the end makes a difficult weapon to use against people, but ranchers and pastoral nomads find it an indispensable tool. Constant practice on their herds leads such people to great skill with a lasso.

Unlike other thrown restraining weapons, such as bolas or nets, a lasso gives its wielder a way to retrieve a weapon ensnared with a Disarm gambit (which requires a Draw/Ready Weapon action to reel it in)... or to maintain an active hold on a grappled target.

If the attacker can maintain tension on the rope, a grappled target cannot attempt to increase the distance between them. However, if the victim is outside of the attacker's range band, he is free to move closer to the attacker. This forces the attacker to either move an equal distance away from the target, or else take a Draw/Ready Weapon action (page 196) to reel in the slack and thereby maintain tension. If the attacker does neither, the victim suffers none of the attacker's extra success-derived penalties to an attempt to free himself, as the lack of tension loosens the lasso's loop; these penalties return if the attacker creates tension again, but the penalties are reduced by one for each turn in which the attacker failed to maintain tension. Further, without tension, the victim may move freely into any range band allowed by the range of the rope, within a radius of the attacker.

As with the bola, a lasso can only partially restrain a target, such as by pinning his arms to his body or binding his legs together, with effects identical to the bola's. However, the lasso may also effectively snare two other locations.

By reducing the gambit's difficulty to 3, the attacker may bind only one of the victim's legs. This inflicts no restrictions or penalties, save for the extra success-derived penalties against freeing one's self, and even those don't apply to any attacks the victim can make to cut the rope. However, as long as the rope remains intact and tense, the attacker may take a Miscellaneous action on his turn to pull the target off their feet, rendering them prone.

By increasing the gambit's difficulty to 5, the attacker will bind the target's neck. This leaves the victim as free to act as binding one leg. However, as long as the rope remains intact and tense, the attacker may inflict a Withering or Decisive Savaging action against the victim on his turn. This is normally the only method by which the lasso can inflict damage as a Light weapon, and the Decisive damage is Lethal, since the rope is crushing a delicate part of the victim's anatomy. A victim in Initiative Crash may only be subjected to Decisive Savaging attacks in this fashion.

The most effective strategy is to use a lasso from a steed and then to ride away, dragging the target along behind. In that case, the captured target faces a resisted roll of his ([Strength or Dexterity] + Athletics) against the (steed's Strength + attacker's Ride) to free himself, and still takes the dice penalty for the attacker's extra successes. Attackers with superhuman strength like unto a horse may employ this tactic on foot, opposing the target's resisted roll with their own (Strength + Athletics) instead.

Though lassos should always require two hands for throwing, at the storyteller's discretion or with a stunt, an attacker may need only one hand to continue using a lasso after snaring a target, freeing his other hand to perform other actions or attacks.

Tags: Grappling, Disarming, Flexible, Two-Handed, Thrown (Short), Special
 
Are there any cheap artifacts that allow a character to go without, or at least drastically reduce, sleep? If not, what do you think would be an appropriate level of effect for a one or two dot artifact leaning in that direction?
 
Serafina said:
Better example: BP/XP split.
Because they're still pretending it's not a problem.

But when you show with math that it's broken (which is trivially easy), you get "oh, it's not actually a problem in-game".
If you then show how it's a problem in-game, then you get "oh, but we had this design goal". With the design goal presumably being to encourage specialization - which IS easy to do with flat costs. But then having scaling cost for some reason after character creation, which in turn encourages spreading out. And not being able to decide between either, or able to see that Exalted encourages specialization anyway due to charm prerequisites (you'll want ability 5 for those), or dice limits or just the fact that the system encourages you to be "the best" at something if you want to seriously compete at it.

Like...yeah, it's an obvious problem that just got utterly ignored. And it's not even a particularly difficult design obstacle, it's possible to throw together a better system in less than half an hour.
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Best way to handle it that I've found is either using XP for everything, or by giving flat costs for things and a number of 'fill in the blanks' dots/traits for Attributes, Abilities, Backgrounds and magic, with either very limited exchanges that favour not exchanging or making it impossible outright.

The latter makes it harder to free form your characters, but you also don't have to worry about unspent experience during chargen.
 
Revlid said:
I don't think I have a position, as such?

My understanding of this discussion, from the occasional peeks I've taken as alerts have popped up, is that it's essentially driven by a "generation gap" between someone who has just started playing Exalted (or just joined its community) and people who are so familiar with the flaws and common houserules of the previous edition that they let them go unsaid.

Exalted fans have been living with an essentially unplayable game for years. They loved it, because it's ultimately a unique and compelling idea, but in terms of setting material, basic systems, and later mechanical widgets, there's almost no area that didn't have at least one steaming turd contaminating it. Where things can't be fixed (i.e. the "perfect or die" problem would have required rebuilding the entire combat system and several more besides), the community often assumes everyone knows it. Where things can be fixed, they've often forgotten the original material actually exists.

Perhaps the simplest example can be found in Infernal fans - they not only ignore the first two chapters of Infernals, they often outright forget they exist, in favour of developer statements and community consensus. I know someone who wholeheartedly recommended the book to a friend, only to be bombarded with accusations of trolling when they started the book at the beginning and read all of it - which you might think is a fairly normal way of reading a book.
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Just to build on this a bit, at one point I commented to a group of friends that there games most people play, and then there are games we play, which tend to contain multiple google docs full of house rules. The majority of SV (at least among the STs) fall into the latter category. Some of us moreso then other (makes pointing motions at ES), but even Shyft who runs pretty straight 2.0 has made new systems to use with it. And most of our players are in the boat of understanding enough of the flaws that they'll be suggesting fixes. Like, one of the players in my game has errata'd the Immaculate Styles to be more in line with high end CMA's, and another has written something like three or four different SMA's (he's not even using all of them, he just likes making them) so he'd have playable SMA styles for his Sid.

Exalted 2 basically got to the point that among even casual players it wasn't a question of 'are you using house rules' but 'which house rules are you using'.
 
Kylar said:
Just to build on this a bit, at one point I commented to a group of friends that there games most people play, and then there are games we play, which tend to contain multiple google docs full of house rules. The majority of SV (at least among the STs) fall into the latter category. Some of us moreso then other (makes pointing motions at ES), but even Shyft who runs pretty straight 2.0 has made new systems to use with it. And most of our players are in the boat of understanding enough of the flaws that they'll be suggesting fixes. Like, one of the players in my game has errata'd the Immaculate Styles to be more in line with high end CMA's, and another has written something like three or four different SMA's (he's not even using all of them, he just likes making them) so he'd have playable SMA styles for his Sid.

Exalted 2 basically got to the point that among even casual players it wasn't a question of 'are you using house rules' but 'which house rules are you using'.
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I actually haven't employed most of my houserules or concepts- I run a straight 2e game to teach newbie players what everything is before houserules.

But yeah, I have personal approaches and methods- but by and large, the game I run is about straight from the book. I just also spend a lot of time creating rules fixes for everyone else.
 
Shyft said:
I actually haven't employed most of my houserules or concepts- I run a straight 2e game to teach newbie players what everything is before houserules.

But yeah, I have personal approaches and methods- but by and large, the game I run is about straight from the book. I just also spend a lot of time creating rules fixes for everyone else.
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Fair enough; my apologies for getting that wrong.
 
Aleph said:
Yeah, but by the canon stunt rules, you can basically invalidate it by RPing whatever you're doing, so it's only useful in downtime offscreen segments, which... makes for a rather weird and disjointed discrepancy, where your motes are strictly limited offscreen but effectively infinite onscreen. It's why ES and I just went with the mote reactor anima hack for Kerisgame. Which leads onto my next point...
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3E Cult is better but still flawed in it's own way. It basically acts as extra temporary willpower points - one per rating, with each point usable only once per story. That's fixed the problem where they don't benefit you on screen, but Story length resources are bad in that... how long is a story? That oddness works for the Raksha, but it's arbitrariness isn't great for everyone else - it's deeply inconsistent, and how much game is left in a story is usually intentionally invisible to the players. That means that people are going to sit on those points and not use them.

Also, with how merits are raised in game (New Rating x3), you always should buy the maximum rating of a merit the first time you pick it up, so experience points wise, you want to go straight from Cult 0 (no one is worshiping you) to Cult 5 (everyone in an entire direction gives you at least lip service), as it saves you 30 exp.
 
TheLastOne said:
Also, with how merits are raised in game (New Rating x3), you always should buy the maximum rating of a merit the first time you pick it up, so experience points wise, you want to go straight from Cult 0 (no one is worshiping you) to Cult 5 (everyone in an entire direction gives you at least lip service), as it saves you 30 exp.
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Wait, you don't have to buy the intermittent steps?
 
Revlid said:
I don't think I have a position, as such?

My understanding of this discussion, from the occasional peeks I've taken as alerts have popped up, is that it's essentially driven by a "generation gap" between someone who has just started playing Exalted (or just joined its community) and people who are so familiar with the flaws and common houserules of the previous edition that they let them go unsaid.

Exalted fans have been living with an essentially unplayable game for years. They loved it, because it's ultimately a unique and compelling idea, but in terms of setting material, basic systems, and later mechanical widgets, there's almost no area that didn't have at least one steaming turd contaminating it. Where things can't be fixed (i.e. the "perfect or die" problem would have required rebuilding the entire combat system and several more besides), the community often assumes everyone knows it. Where things can be fixed, they've often forgotten the original material actually exists.

Perhaps the simplest example can be found in Infernal fans - they not only ignore the first two chapters of Infernals, they often outright forget they exist, in favour of developer statements and community consensus. I know someone who wholeheartedly recommended the book to a friend, only to be bombarded with accusations of trolling when they started the book at the beginning and read all of it - which you might think is a fairly normal way of reading a book.
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Hmm. Neutrality. Unexpected and admirable.
As for the 'generation gap' - very insightful, actually. While I'm quite acquainted with the whole idea of fixing flaws in systems, including Storyteller-derived ones, I certainly do not have the amount of exposure to Exalted-specific flaws and fixes. But it's not just about the system.

As in, I'm seeing the same amount of categorism regarding setting info, such as the existence of this or that artifact or organisation or technology or state or the like. Apparently people won't accept the Realm and the Guild and the North and the West and the Halta and the Haslanti and the Sorcery and the X-Bloods and the Great Forks and the Infernals . . .
Speaking of Infernals, I have either skimmed or read the first two chapters, and I don't get why it received such a backlash. Yes, it's mediocre and not very memorable (which is why I don't remember whether I skimmed or fully read it), and yes it has hints of Abrahamic memes, but that's hardly a big deal after choosing a very religiously loaded word (Demons) in the first place (which happened long before Infernals). The rageful reactions seems disproportional to me. Why does it burn so strongly?

I'm kinda relieved about @Shyft mentioning the "This is broken, and you're wrong for having fun with something that is obviously broken" attitude-impression issue (because this means I'm not being delusional, at least not completely), but I also feel that this applies no less, and probably more, to the setting than to the system.
If the system is so bad and the setting is so bad, but the ideas are so good, then why not take the ideas and make a different setting and pick a different system?
Needing to rewrite absolutely everything kinda defeats the purpose of buying a published book, it's kinda like that joke about buying a bus ticket and then taking a walk out of spite against the driver.

So yeah, I'm very puzzled by the combination of attitudes and choices of 'the other generation'.

Kylar said:
Exalted 2 basically got to the point that among even casual players it wasn't a question of 'are you using house rules' but 'which house rules are you using'.
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I'm a person with a big bunch of rules tinkering behind my back but . . . the latter actually sounds kinda horrible. The unacceptance of the no-houserules option. Not the preference for houserules. But the much more categorical stance.
 
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Eukie said:
Wait, you don't have to buy the intermittent steps?
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For merits? No. Your retainer doesn't have to slowly develop from a mortal to a young Dragonsblood. You can just get a Dragonsblooded retainer if it makes in-story sense. You don't have to slowly improve your Manse - improving it is actually an epic undertaking. If you inherit wealth, you go from Resources 0 to Resources 2 with no 1 in between.

So improving incremental merits is always broken.
 
TheLastOne said:
Also, with how merits are raised in game (New Rating x3), you always should buy the maximum rating of a merit the first time you pick it up, so experience points wise, you want to go straight from Cult 0 (no one is worshiping you) to Cult 5 (everyone in an entire direction gives you at least lip service), as it saves you 30 exp.
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Actually, this not the case: If you do buy a Merit, you have to pay for every step of it (just like with abilities) unless it's a Merit that only has one level. In that case, you only pay for that levels rating on it's own, not any nonexistent ratings.

So for example, if you were to learn Martial Arts (a 4-dot merit), it would cost 12 points - you are only paying for the four-dot stage, since no others exist.
If you however buy Mighty Thew, you would have to first buy it at 1 dot (3 XP), then at 2 dots (6 XP) and finally at 3 dots (9 XP), since each of those stages does something (add 1 dice to feats of strength).

Also, you can only buy purchased merits in the first place, and Cult is a Story-merit.
And yes, due to stupid character creation, if you buy a merit with your free merit ratings or with BP, it doesn't cost any extra no matter how many steps it has.
 
Serafina said:
Actually, this not the case: If you do buy a Merit, you have to pay for every step of it (just like with abilities) unless it's a Merit that only has one level. In that case, you only pay for that levels rating on it's own, not any nonexistent ratings.

So for example, if you were to learn Martial Arts (a 4-dot merit), it would cost 12 points - you are only paying for the four-dot stage, since no others exist.
If you however buy Mighty Thew, you would have to first buy it at 1 dot (3 XP), then at 2 dots (6 XP) and finally at 3 dots (9 XP), since each of those stages does something (add 1 dice to feats of strength).

Also, you can only buy purchased merits in the first place, and Cult is a Story-merit.
And yes, due to stupid character creation, if you buy a merit with your free merit ratings or with BP, it doesn't cost any extra no matter how many steps it has.
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Huh, you're right. For some reason I thought they did charge you for story merits that you raised in-game.
 
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