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General Exalted Thread

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Aleph said:
... well... yeah, I guess, if you also consider Solars to be "warped" by Solar Charms. That still doesn't mean that Infernals will become Yozis, though, because a Yozi is by definition one of the ones trapped in Malfeas. And, you know, a Charmset doesn't force behaviour, only incentivise it. Those imprisoned Primordials? They don't matter. And the Infernals that succeed them... well, they do, but they won't have anything like the same goals for Creation - or the power to enforce them in the same way that a fullblown Primordial could. Even at Enlightenment 10 and with a full contingent of souls; Keris can't do a fraction of the damage that Adorjan could if freed, and more importantly, she wouldn't want to. Most Infernals won't. An Infernal gone Devil-Tiger has a very different impact on the setting than a freed Yozi - they're a big deal, yeah, but not much more so than an elder Solar. Which is to say "world-shaking, but killable".
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I don't think Solar Charms are as interesting as Infernal Charms. I find Infernal Charms fascinating specifically for the reason that many of them are permanent qualitative, two-edged changes. Like Hateful Wretched Noise making one hate loud noises while providing permanent keen hearing, Witness to Darkness making honesty harder, or that lovely charm making Compassion become about hurting people.
 
vicky_molokh said:
I don't think Solar Charms are as interesting as Infernal Charms. I find Infernal Charms fascinating specifically for the reason that many of them are permanent qualitative, two-edged changes. Like Hateful Wretched Noise making one hate loud noises while providing permanent keen hearing, Witness to Darkness making honesty harder, or that lovely charm making Compassion become about hurting people.
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Yeah, I know, and I agree with you on that, but you're missing my point. You really think Righteous Lion Defence or Hypnotic Tongue Technique don't change a person? Look to the Solars of the First Age to prove that wrong. Cosmic Transcendence of [Virtue] is totally valid Solar territory, too. Infernals aren't changed as people any more than other Exalts are by their Charms. They're just more outwardly obvious about it.
 
Aleph said:
Yeah, I know, and I agree with you on that, but you're missing my point. You really think Righteous Lion Defence or Hypnotic Tongue Technique don't change a person? Look to the Solars of the First Age to prove that wrong. Cosmic Transcendence of [Virtue] is totally valid Solar territory, too. Infernals aren't changed as people any more than other Exalts are by their Charms. They're just more outwardly obvious about it.
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Hmm. Well, I do think that Infernals are changed more, based on everything they go through, including Charms. I guess we're seeing things differently on that one.
 
vicky_molokh said:
Hmm. Well, I do think that Infernals are changed more, based on everything they go through, including Charms. I guess we're seeing things differently on that one.
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You're not wrong about this, but that doesn't make them mini-Yozi, it makes them mini-Primordials.

Primordials 2.0, in fact, since they have more agency than the Primordials had even at the heights of their power.
 
Aleph said:
Yeah, I know, and I agree with you on that, but you're missing my point. You really think Righteous Lion Defence or Hypnotic Tongue Technique don't change a person? Look to the Solars of the First Age to prove that wrong. Cosmic Transcendence of [Virtue] is totally valid Solar territory, too. Infernals aren't changed as people any more than other Exalts are by their Charms. They're just more outwardly obvious about it.
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To put it another way, "Just look at how fucked up Solar Integrity makes you".
 
To make thing one thing clear about the Reclamation, and I really really cannot emphasize this enough, until Return of the Scarlet Empress came out and gave it an actual Win Condition, the default assumption with the Reclamation as the Yozi's plan it is it is fated to catastrophic failure no matter what. The Yozi's are not escaping, period. Their prison is one crafted by the entirety of the Exalted Host in probably the last time they were ever truly united in a cause, with every Solar, Lunar, Sidereal and Terrestial working to ensure that they are not escaping at arguably the pinnacle, or at the very least one of the high points, of their power. 50 Infernals, no matter how weird of powerful they are, are going to be able to break that. And then Return of the Scarlet Empress comes out and does it anyway.
 
If I were writing Infernals, I'd make clear that while the ultimate goal is to free the Yozi, it's possible that that is impossible, and even if it is possible, it will likely take a long time to come to fruition. The more immediate goals of the Yozi are to increase the power of the Unquestionables, and to impose their will on Creation through their Exalted. This allows storytellers to run 'the Yozi are breaking free' plots, but limits the Reclamation to 'a bunch of Infernals are taking over Nexus/Destroying Gem/Whatever.'
 
Hazard said:
I'm looking towards a Socialize/Social focused Night Caste actually, but I'm still working out the stats.
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Oh damn, you as well?

I suppose I can always change my concept to be the Worst Dawn Ever!

Its sad that the idea kind of amuses me.

(Currently looking at a Black Claw/Dreaming Pearl build, was considering being the party face since that works well, but might just go with Dawn caste and have social be a secondary thing)
 
I always thought that the only legitimate way of freeing the Yozis is if the Exalted host willingly* break their side of the deal, Aka, if a Exalted of one of the types that fought in the Primordial war kills a Yozi and creates a new Neverborn.

This isn't exactly a probable thing.

*(If the Yozis try to manipulate a Exalt to kill of of them, that obviously doesn't break the oaths)
 
notanautomaton said:
If I were writing Infernals, I'd make clear that while the ultimate goal is to free the Yozi, it's possible that that is impossible, and even if it is possible, it will likely take a long time to come to fruition. The more immediate goals of the Yozi are to increase the power of the Unquestionables, and to impose their will on Creation through their Exalted. This allows storytellers to run 'the Yozi are breaking free' plots, but limits the Reclamation to 'a bunch of Infernals are taking over Nexus/Destroying Gem/Whatever.'
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That's still kind of lame.

I really want to run an 'Infernal Dilbert' type game at least once. Dealing with a pointy haired boss is a lot harder when he might suddenly decide to throw nuclear fireballs around. Or when your occasional assassination attempt involves a sorcery binding cord and Light of Solar Cleansing. Speaking of which, anyone else think that Infernals being unable to cast those spells is kind of rubbish? I mean they are still Solars, and they haven't even been opposite aspected like the Emo Ones Abyssals. I've always thought they should be able to use holy effects from Sorcery, Artifacts and Martial arts, just with a risk of getting court in the crossfire.
 
notanautomaton said:
If I were writing Infernals, I'd make clear that while the ultimate goal is to free the Yozi, it's possible that that is impossible, and even if it is possible, it will likely take a long time to come to fruition. The more immediate goals of the Yozi are to increase the power of the Unquestionables, and to impose their will on Creation through their Exalted. This allows storytellers to run 'the Yozi are breaking free' plots, but limits the Reclamation to 'a bunch of Infernals are taking over Nexus/Destroying Gem/Whatever.'
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Yeah, if you look at Kerisgame, the real ultimate goal of the "Reclamation" is the Third Circles wanting to be able to give orders to Exalts so they have assets who can go further their plans, summon them into Creation, and generally allow beings who are as powerful as the most powerful gods reign to play on Creation as players for the first time since the PW.

... this still means that there are... well, if you say there's an average 15 3rd Circles per Yozi, that means that there are 120 demon princes [1] who are giving orders to 50 GSPs and trying to squabble over who gets their orders done first. Which is why in An Teng, three Infernals are having to handle getting orders from five demon princes and of them, three of the demon princes each want unchallenged, unquestioned dominion over the principalities.

The moral of this story is that the Third Circles are finding that there aren't enough Green Sun Princes and that the ones who got in first and who managed to get patronage of them early have a massive advantage. And that the demand for GSP services is so high that they're having to bid more to acquire their services in the bidding wars in the All-Thing, quite apart from the backdoor system of patronage which they're also using. Quite a few cabals are already forming, where Third Circles with interests in common are setting up block votes and favour trading to ensure GSP orders are set for mutual benefit [2].

And Ligier is playing the system by being patron to lots and lots of GSPs and so is hogging them, because he's both a charismatic handsome bastard and he's also incredibly rich and loaded down with things that the GSPs want. Witness how he acquired Keris as a client, by being the one who can repair and convert the Royal Yacht of An Teng into Keris' flagship. The fact that he can teach GSNF expansions is just an added bonus.

[1] Kerisgame has Metagaos, Kimbery, Malfeas, Adorjan, TED, Cecelyne, SWLIHN and Isidoros all onboard.

[2] Some of them are considering whether they can start treating the new Solars like they do the GSPs, because humans love Hell-crack and demon hookers, right? And if they can't get their hands on a GSP who'll take orders, coaxing a Solar into their service might be even better.
 
Plus I suspect some of the Unquestionable of the Other 14 Yozi trapped in there no doubt have the occasional request that they might want to make.
 
Sucal said:
Plus I suspect some of the Unquestionable of the Other 14 Yozi trapped in there no doubt have the occasional request that they might want to make.
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Yes, but the ones who are in on it have declared that they can go fuck right off. And they will declare war on them if they try to poach their GSPs.

(that just means they have to make those patronage agreements behind the backs of the others)
 
EarthScorpion said:
[2] Some of them are considering whether they can start treating the new Solars like they do the GSPs, because humans love Hell-crack and demon hookers, right? And if they can't get their hands on a GSP who'll take orders, coaxing a Solar into their service might be even better.
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Have any of them actually tried this? Because I imagine that can only turn out poorly.
 
horngeek said:
Have any of them actually tried this? Because I imagine that can only turn out poorly.
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I don't see why. New Solars start without anything. Resources, allies and a base of operations are all good attractives.

Is not like the Sun forbids to work with demons.

(Hell, even in the first age, there was a marriage among a 3º circle and a Solar. They can work together just fine)
 
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Why is it assumed that entities enormously more powerful and intelligent than humans are so poor at properly manipulating 50 heavily brainmodified (based on their needs) human-like persons into doing what they need? Especially TED, granddaddy of all them Darth Palpatines?
 
Why is it assumed that entities enormously more powerful and intelligent than humans are so poor at properly manipulating 50 heavily brainmodified (based on their needs) human-like persons into doing what they need?
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I could guess. They lack.. empathy? Because the way social influence is mapped in mechanical abstracts , it's actually quite hard to subtly manipulate someone with high-willpower (aka all Exalts?) and social defenses?
 
vicky_molokh said:
Why is it assumed that entities enormously more powerful and intelligent than humans are so poor at properly manipulating 50 heavily brainmodified (based on their needs) human-like persons into doing what they need? Especially TED, granddaddy of all them Darth Palpatines?
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Because they are all trying to manipulate them for different end goals. Liger wants more materials for his forge, and more people to obey his commands. Erembour wants more people to delight in the Ebon Dragon and run free according to their desire. Adorjan doesn't want anything, but tends to run through at random in her pageboy form, grinning at all the asectics who try and cut off attachments.

When you've got five different beings trying to do all these things at once, it is up to the Human to decide what he wants to pay attention to and what he thinks is rubbish. More importantly, like the Solars themselves there is always the chance that the Infernals might reach traces of their former power. In which case only the most stupid of the Unquestionable blatantly attempts to mindfuck a being that might one day be more then strong enough to return the favour. Mindless puppets are what the Unquestionable create Akuma for.

True Success comes from understanding that Carrots work a long better then sticks in the long run, especially when an attempt at threatening them could lead to them immediately rushing to your enemy and pledging their support .
 
horngeek said:
Oh, the initial bit, sure, but expecting to treat Solars the same way as they would the GSPs?
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What, giving them lots of blow, hookers, assets, tools to help them do what they want to do, and social attacks meant to lead them to worship them? And telling them that they're the ones who made the world, and showing them all the way that the gods are corrupt usurpers who stole the world and who don't do shit, but instead laze in Yu Shan growing fat on human prayer?

The Third Circle methods of loyalty they used on Keris work perfectly fine on Solars. Namely, "giving them shiny things and assets, don't ask them to do anything they don't want to do while you build up their loyalty to you". And they would have kept on working find, had Salina not managed to get in and instil doubt in her.
 
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