Any significant changes in what we've seen so far?

Sidereals were already in good shape lore-wise, so I wouldn't be surprised to see them return more or less as-is. But authors do get ideas.

I've been starting Thanksgiving cooking, so haven't really had a chance to dig into the text yet, but in the Discord people were saying that the Usurpation is presented less as a one-night slaughter and is now a "Solar Purge" that actually took quite a while and had some Solars aiding the Bronze Faction. Oh, and the original plan was actually for the Sidereals to take over the Old Realm, with the mask breaking and the resulting Arcane Fate being unforeseen consequences that made their taking the center stage impossible.

"The Bronze Faction hid [The Jade Prison] away within the constellation of the Mask, the sign of secret wisdom, but they misjudged the Prison's power. The Mask shattered under its weight, cursing the Sidereal with the arcane fate that leaves Creation unable to remember them."
 
Here's a big one; No Great Prophecy.

Also appreciated is that the Gold Faction has been generally an anti-status quo group, and that it's ethos has shifted over the centuries. The Usurpation/Purge was the spark; it has endured for many reasons. Also, it doesn't have a clear leader; Ayesha Ura commands the respect of a plurality, but it's a very recent ascent (only since the Solar return), and she faces serious challengers.
 
There's no real emphasis on the Vision of Gold and the Vision of Bronze as centrally fixating on which Exalt type should be in charge of the world, which ties into the modern day factions being more concerned with the larger political concern of "maintain the status quo of the Realm and its hegemony" or "replace it with something else". The book isn't super interested in the question of whether the Solar Purge was justified or not so much as just that it happened and what the consequences of that are.

In general this manuscript is not as big of a lore glow up as Fangs at the Gate gave Lunars, but that's only because Sidereals weren't quite as hard done by previously. It's still a pretty marked improvement that does a good job of getting at the kinds of stories that you can tell with Sidereals and why they're compelling.

Between the setting content and the stuff we've already gotten for Heaven's Dragons, this is the most Yu-Shan has felt like an exciting and dynamic playspace I'd actually want to set a game in.
 
Why the heck would they lie about that? "We massively fucked up and made our old plan to rule creation as god kings an impossibility" is not a lie I would tell.
 
it's also like literally the first thing the book says in the introduction, and while 3e does delve into 'in-universe propaganda' to some extent when describing factional politics and histories, the intro chapters have consistently been presented as 'this is effectively the objective truth to the current situation and history for the splat in canon' as the line has gotten.
 
I think I like this. Can't back until Sunday, but I am very liking this; I feel like I'm not going to be bound into supporting the Realm or the Solars; opens up other possible options.
 
Is this treated as a Fact, or as something the Bronze Faction claims as fact?
The relevant two sentences: "The Mask shattered under its weight, cursing the Sidereal with the arcane fate that leaves Creation unable to remember them. This was the deathblow to the Bronze Faction's plans, ending any prospect of Sidereal rule or a return to the First Age's status quo."

Probably at least some Sidereals were thinking about it.

I think I like this. Can't back until Sunday, but I am very liking this; I feel like I'm not going to be bound into supporting the Realm or the Solars; opens up other possible options.

And, yes, no need to be bound to Realm or Solars. I could see someone who liked Raksi's model ending up as either Bronze or Gold, depending on exactly how they wanna see things go between here and there, and someone who has broad ideas about Sovereigns being given a lot more temporal control is Gold just as much as a Solar fanboy is.
 
I dunno.

I'm reading it over now and it feels like it opens up more story and campaign ideas. Gold vs Bronze being specifically Solar vs DB rather set in stone was kinda limiting. Plus making heaven more usable says great things about the inevitable underworld rewrite
 
Well, this is all first impressions of secondhand accounts. But putting more weight on the factional divide just seems like throwing good money after bad.

Having distinct political parties in a group of 100 individual people, each with vast and wide-ranging concerns, was always a bit of a joke. It was supportable as a mostly-hypothetical argument over one specific issue; trying to make it more than that seems silly.

The bits about the Usurpation are also concerning. Starting with the apparent vocabulary change; "Solar Purge" makes it sound like some higher authority was disposing of a malfunctioning cog, which exactly the wrong impression to provide here. Whole damn point was that the Sids and DBs had to turn the world upside-down for what they thought was the greater good; making it any less than that demeans everyone involved, even the mortals.

And of course, de-emphasizing the moral question of the Usurpation seems like a good way to make the story both more complicated and more shallow. Not ideal, obviously.

Plus the idea that Sidereals ever wanted to directly rule Creation just seems dumb, boring, and bad. But my impression is that that was a throwaway detail, easily ignored.

Eh, I should probably reserve judgment until I read the lore properly. Problem is, it'll be a while before I can do that. Buying into a Kickstarter from people who literally scammed me last time isn't really an option.
 
Eh, I should probably reserve judgment until I read the lore properly. Problem is, it'll be a while before I can do that. Buying into a Kickstarter from people who literally scammed me last time isn't really an option.
I mean, pledge $5 for the kickstarter backer access to the manuscript, then if you hate it once we have all the chapters just pull your pledge before the campaign ends.
 
Personally, I think the factions actually hold up better this time around. The Gold Faction isn't just "hey, we really did the Solars dirty" it's a mutual aid league of Sidereals that were willing to risk the status quo for a better Creation. And for all that, friendships and professional relationships regularly cross faction lines. It's only in the last few years that the faction divide has started to actually threaten business as usual.

As for the lack of a Great Prophecy; I think it adds more weight. There was no magic vision saying "do something or Creation dies", there were people who looked at what was happening and made a painful choice to avert potential disaster.

Direct rule by Sidereals was supposed to be temporary, long enough to set up a new government. The Breaking of the Mask meant they had to make do with what was there and give power to the gentes.
 
So instead of using their temporary control of the world to pass power to the Dragonblooded they were forced to use their temporary control of the world to pass power to the Dragonblooded?

...did the breaking of the Mask actually change anything meaningful?

As for the Great Prophecy specifically, I doubt cutting it makes much difference one way or the other. Either way, the story boils down to the same choice. In a situation like that I think it's usually best not to make random changes, but...well, whatever. What I find worrying is the talk upthread about setting aside the whole "was the rebellion justified" question, which seems wrongheaded to me.
 
In the near term, I mean. Was there ever anything at all, even in the abortive plans of fictional characters, to this whole "Sidereals ruling Creation" thing?
 
In the near term, I mean. Was there ever anything at all, even in the abortive plans of fictional characters, to this whole "Sidereals ruling Creation" thing?
The theory: after completing the purge, the Bronze would take over for a brief time, reshaping the governance of Creation to face the future before handing power over to their successors, who had yet to be decided.
The practice: tell the handful of Dragon-Blooded gentes that survived mostly intact that you're in charge, don't fuck it up. This, the Shogunate and it's never ending civil war
 
Huh, okay. Guess that takes me back to where I started.

Plus the idea that Sidereals ever wanted to directly rule Creation just seems dumb, boring, and bad. But my impression is that that was a throwaway detail, easily ignored.

Did they keep the implication that the Sidereal Great Curse drives deeply foolish decisions like that one?

I've always had mixed feelings about that bit; it makes for a good authorial excuse, and it's nice to see an echo of murders past in the fall of the Exalted, but it's always been a little too convenient, you know?

Besides, when you lean on supernatural influences it can undermine the actual characters and decisions that make up the story proper.
 
...why would whether or not I hate it have any effect on anything?

Maybe you leave the $5 in if you feel like this one's not a scam. I dunno, man, they explicitly endorse just pledging the $5 if you want to check out the manuscript, so you don't have to feel like you're pulling one over on anyone if you check it out because you want to be informed. You still hate them on principle? Fine, do the thing and just pull your pledge. "I don't want to give them my money" isn't a barrier to entry here.

Article:
Citizen of Heaven: Not ready to commit, or just looking to offer general support? This pledge tier is for you.


In the near term, I mean. Was there ever anything at all, even in the abortive plans of fictional characters, to this whole "Sidereals ruling Creation" thing?

Yes, explicitly in the first chapter (which I've had time to read by now :V ):

Article:
The Solar Purge

The First Age was a time of unimaginable splendor, but it also saw horrors such as Creation had never seen. Cities were annihilated over petty insults. Sorcerers called upon great and baleful powers to slake their ambition and lust. Tyrannical god-kings forged impossible engines to erase free will itself. In time, it grew clear that if nothing were done, the First Age would fall to its own masters.

First in hypotheticals, then gradually in earnest, a group Sidereals that would come to be known as the Bronze Faction planned what would come to be known as both the Solar Purge and the Usurpation. While they could not stop every atrocity perpetrated by the Exalted, they could remove the Lawgivers who brought the greatest of Exalted power to bear in their hubris. With the aid of Dragon-Blooded gentes and other allies, the Solars would be assassinated in a single fell swoop, and their power sealed away. The Sidereals would rule for a time until Creation settled back into order, but the First Age would continue, freed from the worst of its horrors. The collateral damage would be unimaginable, but a necessary sacrifice for the sake of Creation.

The Solar Purge did not go as planned.

While many Lawgivers fell in a single stroke, too many survived. Legendary Solar warriors slew the assassins sent against them, while others escaped their pursuers. Some had uncovered the conspirators' schemes and prepared against them, or been warned by Sidereal opposed to the Purge. Some were vigilant or paranoid enough to have already planned for just such a contingency. What was meant to be a surgical strike became a years-long war — a war that the nascent Bronze Faction and its allies won.

The slain Solars' Exaltations were sealed within the Jade Prison, a singular wonder that prevented their reincarnation. The Bronze Faction hid it away within the constellation of the Mask, the sign of secret wisdom, but they misjudged the Prison's power. The Mask shattered under its weight, cursing the Sidereal with the arcane fate that leaves Creation unable to remember them. This was the deathblow to the Bronze Faction's plans, ending any prospect of Sidereal rule or a return to the First Age's status quo. Instead, the Sidereals entrusted rulership to their Dragon-Blooded allies, marking the Shogunate's dawn and the First Age's end.


I don't know if maybe the setting info brings up the their Great Curse because I haven't read that far yet, but we don't have any mechanics yet, so anything concrete will have to wait regardless. Next week is character creation and traits, I think, which would have the details on it.

Edit: Another thing that I'm not sure is new, or just reframed from earlier editions is that part of the reason that Heaven creates and fulfils Destinies is that their completion reinforces the fabric of Creation against the Wyld, and conversely when Destinies are thwarted that actually damages Creation's reality. I like it as giving a reason for the whole destiny business outside of just heavenly entities meddling just to meddle.
 
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