General Exalted Thread

[Kaiya]

See, you're all bringing up Rights and such, and that kind of 'sanctity' thinking... It's wonderful and moral and a great element of being alive today for all the good and bad of our cultures... but Creation doesn't have that at the same pervasive level.

Like- I'm an American, and I've been indoctrinated for 30 years of How To American, and a lot of that includes the belief that I have a right to be alive, to have sanctity of self and thought. To not be imposed upon by laws or culture or anything. This indoctrination is by no means evil, per se- because thats what culture is- indoctrination and education into the development of a Like-Group so you fit in well. It gets people reading off the same page, and the most pervasive, persistent and easily understood messages are the ones that let us survive and live together in a country, on a continent, on this planet.

In Creation, at a raw, fundamental level, as horrible as this is, has no external force that says anyone has a right to anything. There's no edifice of culture or societal rules or alignment system that says you have to do or be anything. All of that is handled at the local, relative level- that of your tribe, your nation, your family, yourself. The Unconquered Sun has no horse in the race of how people are treated except that he is a god of overwhelming virtue, and the qualities he presents/embodies can considered desirable. Granted those qualities are also up to interpretation, because nobody really understands how Compassionate the Sun is, but they agree that he's The Most Compassionate, so they agree that emulating him is a welcome thing.

And here's the other, more critical part. Creation does not have mass media. It does not have the sheer pervasive quantity of repetitive messages distilling cultural values into a digestible format for decades of a consumer's life. When you strip away the magic, the point of broad-spectrum mental influence is that it's the same kind of thing that modern advertising and political campaigns do, just faster.

So here's the thing- when you say you don't have the right to do something in Creation, as an Exalt or not. That's not a statement of Creation. That's a statement of your character, or another NPC, or a god or demon or thinking being. And while you may agree with them, they sure as hell are not inherently correct nor are they incorrect.

And beyond that, if you want that belief, that right to have any traction, you are going to have to throw it against people who believe just as hard as you in something else that may or may not conflict with it. Setting aside the moral and ethical implications of this, that's how you get good drama and storytelling. Because as much Exalted is about epic kung fu duels in exotic locales with sick powers, it's also about ideologies being represented by glorious shiny shitheads beating each other and their kingdoms up over Who's Got The Better Idea.

Creation the setting and Exalted the characters are not meant to be representations of rights, but of ideologies and privilege, and how those things can be both great and terrible. Because what does power and security do for a lot of people? It makes them feel safe, and when they're safe they consider behaviors that would be risky as Not Risky. Power, Exaltation, lets you put yourself out there, and lets you put your ideals on the line because you can make them stick.

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None of this changes or even challenges anything I said, you're just reiterating stuff pretty much everyone here knows.

 

[SerGregness]

That's the seduction of the Solar psyche Charms. They let you override people's fears and doubts, and "improve" them. They let you reach in and rip out the things "wrong" with them. They let you turn off any emotions or experiences that you find upsetting, and feel people would be better off without.

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This makes me wonder a bit whether a hypothetical Ex3 version of You Can Be More would need to be Psyche keyworded.

 

[Sanctaphrax]

So here's the thing- when you say you don't have the right to do something in Creation, as an Exalt or not. That's not a statement of Creation. That's a statement of your character, or another NPC, or a god or demon or thinking being. And while you may agree with them, they sure as hell are not inherently correct nor are they incorrect.

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Exalted is still part of the real world. To whatever extent objective morality exists in the real world, it exists in Creation.

The fact that nobody is enforcing it doesn't mean anything; objective truth remains true even if every living thing denies it from birth to death.

 

[Queshire]

Ehhhhhhhhhh.... I rather think the flaws in that reasoning are self evident.

 

[GardenerBriareus]

Summon Elemental just doesn't have a version to summon 2CD level beings. Summon Second Circle is a different spell, as is Third Circle. The only option for E6 slaves is demons, but before that, i.e. most of the lifespan of your average game, a Greenmaw is every bit the equal of a blood ape, and thunder birds can fly as well as any Agatae.

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Well, technically you could put time and effort into leveling up your mans until your Mawile earth elemental ore extractor/refiner is badass enough to punch a 2CD in the dick and live to tell of it. Hell, that seems like it could make for just as interesting a narrative as getting involved in demonic politics, especially if your elemental starts forging their own court and generally warlording it up with your help.

 

[GardenerBriareus]

Does anyone know if the Martial Arts Styles on Phantasm Games survived anywhere? I just found out that their servers are down while trying to refresh my memory on a particular TMA.

 

[Sanctaphrax]

Never heard of them.

Ehhhhhhhhhh.... I rather think the flaws in that reasoning are self evident.

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Perhaps I'm just a moron, but they're not evident to me.

If objective morality exists, it applies to every part of the world. If it doesn't, it doesn't. Nothing written in a book can affect the reach, the bounds, or the (non)existence of objective morals. Seems pretty clear to me.

 

[Shane_357]

Never heard of them.



Perhaps I'm just a moron, but they're not evident to me.

If objective morality exists, it applies to every part of the world. If it doesn't, it doesn't. Nothing written in a book can affect the reach, the bounds, or the (non)existence of objective morals. Seems pretty clear to me.

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Objective morality is utter bullshit. Right and wrong are concepts made by humans and as such alter with every human that considers them.

 

[ichypa]

Objective morality is utter bullshit. Right and wrong are concepts made by humans and as such alter with every human that considers them.

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That, or if it does exist, it's probably stuff along the lines of "might makes right" or "the winner is justice," and most people these days, myself included, would be unhappy with considering those to be morality.

 

[veekie]

That, or if it does exist, it's probably stuff along the lines of "might makes right" or "the winner is justice," and most people these days, myself included, would be unhappy with considering those to be morality.

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Naw, if you want to go all objective about it, moral and ethical rules boil down to social adaptations for community living. Most of those are ultimately ways to behave which leads to the least of someone getting lynched by someone else out of preemptive self defense.

So if you go by that, social charms are objectively socially superior!(until they stop working anyway ref. Desus)

 

[Candesce]

Most of those are ultimately ways to behave which leads to the least of someone getting lynched by someone else out of preemptive self defense.

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Given the way social charms utterly fuck with the ability to trust your neighbors, it's not really surprising that the standard response to Solars is to preemptively lynch them in self defense, no.

 

[Origami Clock]

Given the way social charms utterly fuck with the ability to trust your neighbors, it's not really surprising that the standard response to Solars is to preemptively lynch them in self defense, no.

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Only if your trust in your neighbors is higher than your trust in the solar. Performance charms are handy at solving 'problems' like that. Even if it is only by seducing all of the angry mob at once.

 

[Candesce]

Only if your trust in your neighbors is higher than your trust in the solar.

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I was referring to the Wyld Hunt, mostly.

 

[veekie]

Given the way social charms utterly fuck with the ability to trust your neighbors, it's not really surprising that the standard response to Solars is to preemptively lynch them in self defense, no.

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Thats where Socialize charms come in!

 

[ichypa]

I was referring to the Wyld Hunt, mostly.

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I try not to factor the Wyld Hunt into any considerations of doing things as a Solar, at least when it's more or less in a vacuum; I don't really consider "the people who already want to kill you for existing will come after you" to be an actual consequence to factor into any decision to do anything beyond simple self-preservation.

 

[veekie]

More seriously, Socialize is where its at for reading the currents and thus using them in a way which won't get you facewrecked preemptively, because the Socialize Approach to magic augmented social influence is pretty much tell you how to make them do what you want by doing what they want....and its a lot more subtle than the OH FUCK ME NOW approach, since they aren't doing things alien to them. Just a little different priority orders

 

[Candesce]

I don't really consider "the people who already want to kill you for existing will come after you" to be an actual consequence to factor into any decision to do anything beyond simple self-preservation.

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I wasn't really saying "don't use socialize charms," but instead pointing out that the existence of socialize charms is one of the reasons things like the Wyld Hunt exist, and that they're pretty well founded; modern, first-world ethical constructs only exist and work because we don't have supernaturally convincing Great Men running around and reshaping society into whatever forms they perceive as "better."

These are powers that players will certainly want to use, and it's certainly not hard to be better than much of Creation, but a game that wants to talk about the consequences of actions could do a lot with that.

 

[Origami Clock]

I wasn't really saying "don't use socialize charms," but instead pointing out that the existence of socialize charms is one of the reasons things like the Wyld Hunt exist, and that they're pretty well founded; modern, first-world ethical constructs only exist and work because we don't have supernaturally convincing Great Men running around and reshaping society into whatever forms they perceive as "better."

These are powers that players will certainly want to use, and it's certainly not hard to be better than much of Creation, but a game that wants to talk about the consequences of actions could do a lot with that.

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Imagine Elon Musk with Solar Social Charms.

 

[ichypa]

I wasn't really saying "don't use socialize charms," but instead pointing out that the existence of socialize charms is one of the reasons things like the Wyld Hunt exist, and that they're pretty well founded; modern, first-world ethical constructs only exist and work because we don't have supernaturally convincing Great Men running around and reshaping society into whatever forms they perceive as "better."

These are powers that players will certainly want to use, and it's certainly not hard to be better than much of Creation, but a game that wants to talk about the consequences of actions could do a lot with that.

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No, but what we do have are non-supernaturally convincing cult leaders and charismatic strongmen running around, and with sufficient backing and resources can absolutely reshape society to suit them.

I strongly disagree that a game that wants to talk about consequences could do much with the Wyld Hunt, particularly Exalted. The Wyld Hunt isn't a consequence except in the shallowest sense, it's too easy. If your game is talking about consequences as a theme, then your standard for consequences shouldn't be "if you steal money, the cops will come after you," it should be "if you steal money, then an old couple loses their life's savings, parents are unable to pay their child's medical bills, a person commits suicide because they can no longer pay their debts, investigators uncover an embezzlement scheme that brings down a prominant community figure, etc." For better or for worse, the PC's actions should have consequences, not mere reactions.

 

[Candesce]

The Wyld Hunt isn't a consequence except in the shallowest sense, it's too easy.

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I'd agree with this; the consequences that a player brings upon themselves - either because they haven't thought things through, or because they consider those consequences acceptable, or any other reason - are more interesting than the Wild Hunt, which is a consequence of people and their actions a long time ago and far, far away.

And when a charismatic strongman or a cult leader twists society around them, there are consequences; and the tossing out of "enlightened" moral precepts is often one of them.

 

[Exthalion]

None of this changes or even challenges anything I said, you're just reiterating stuff pretty much everyone here knows.

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That's the point. Most people haven't read the foundational texts or subsequent philosophical discussions at the heart of all this rights talk, and often disagree with the original motivations of them anyway. But that's okay, because for hundreds of years, and certainly all the decades of our lives, people have been cliff's noting and summarizing and soundbiteing the points so that we have a pretty good idea of what these ideas are and what they mean.

In Creation, there is none of that. No one wrote those books. The past three rounds of civilization have been predicated on the objective fact that there are people who are better than you and if you don't do what they say they will use vast supernatural powers to compel your obedience or kill you so as to facilitate someone else doing what they say.

Then there is the fact that after the Twin Troubles society had to build itself back up from total collapse almost everywhere, and those situations are dominated by the most ruthless and charismatic strongmen (or women) present. For most people, including the huddled masses and the upper crust of nobility that a lot of PCs come from, the notion that powerful people shouldn't do what they want is not going to be something they can back up with nothing but their preferences.

This is true in our own history, where the gods usually played the roll of keeping the king from being as much of an ass as he wanted. Except in Creation the gods are objectively real and are often just as terrible as the mortal king but older, richer, and better able to smite you.

On top of this, there are a lot of non-Western ethical constructs which have a place in both the real world and Creation. More collectivist ethics can and do find enforcing conformity to be a moral good or place duty (such as to family or state) before the individual.

This magic is evil when considered from your ethical framework, external to what exists in Creation. Internally, it is much more complicated, and even the (fictional) people that agree with you that such magic is evil might disagree vehemently (and sometimes violently) with the ethical framework you use to make that judgment.

 

[Kaiya]

That's the point. Most people haven't read the foundational texts or subsequent philosophical discussions at the heart of all this rights talk, and often disagree with the original motivations of them anyway. But that's okay, because for hundreds of years, and certainly all the decades of our lives, people have been cliff's noting and summarizing and soundbiteing the points so that we have a pretty good idea of what these ideas are and what they mean.

In Creation, there is none of that. No one wrote those books. The past three rounds of civilization have been predicated on the objective fact that there are people who are better than you and if you don't do what they say they will use vast supernatural powers to compel your obedience or kill you so as to facilitate someone else doing what they say.

Then there is the fact that after the Twin Troubles society had to build itself back up from total collapse almost everywhere, and those situations are dominated by the most ruthless and charismatic strongmen (or women) present. For most people, including the huddled masses and the upper crust of nobility that a lot of PCs come from, the notion that powerful people shouldn't do what they want is not going to be something they can back up with anything but their preferences.

This is true in our own history, where the gods usually played the roll of keeping the king from being as much of an ass as he wanted. Except in Creation the gods are objectively real and are often just as terrible as the mortal king but older, richer, and better able to smite you.

On top of this, there are a lot of non-Western ethical constructs which have a place in both the real world and Creation. More collectivist ethics can and do find enforcing conformity to be a moral good or place duty (such as to family or state) before the individual.

This magic is evil when considered from your ethical framework, external to what exists in Creation. Internally, it is much more complicated, and even the (fictional) people that agree with your that such magic is evil might disagree vehemently (and sometimes violently) with the ethical framework you use to make that judgment.

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You are telling me nothing I don't already know, and nothing that changes anything I was saying. "But Creation lacks objective morality" doesn't change the fact that a Solar using his melee charms to stab babies for shits and giggles is an evil dick in need of putting down. Waxing philosophical about irrelevancies doesn't change what we know to be wrong, how the abuse of certain Charms will likely upset your fellow players, and the fact that an overfocus on how gray and amoral Creation is in the context of "But is someone brainwashing you into a lovestruck slave who would do anything for them really violating someone's rights" is completely inane.

Like, seriously, real life lacks objective morality, but when I say "Brainwashing people is wrong in real life" no one does this shit.

 

[Exthalion]

You are telling me nothing I don't already know, and nothing that changes anything I was saying. "But Creation lacks objective morality" doesn't change the fact that a Solar using his melee charms to stab babies for shits and giggles is an evil dick in need of putting down. Waxing philosophical about irrelevancies doesn't change what we know to be wrong, how the abuse of certain Charms will likely upset your fellow players, and the fact that an overfocus on how gray and amoral Creation is in the context of "But is someone brainwashing you into a lovestruck slave who would do anything for them really violating someone's rights" is completely inane.

Like, seriously, real life lacks objective morality, but when I say "Brainwashing people is wrong in real life" no one does this shit.

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You miss my point. I don't care if Creation does or doesn't have objective morality. It is entirely irrelevant to the point I was making. Nor have I ever said brainwashing isn't evil, and I will thank you for not jousting with a strawman or putting words in my mouth.

When we all sit down to play Exalted in Creation part of that is making characters and playing characters that are consistent with the setting. Consider how characters in, say, Forgotten Realms don't spontaneously develop Catholicism with the serial numbers filed off. Importing modern Western ethics into PCs without sufficient in-setting justification creates a significant break of immersion.

No one is forcing you to focus on elements of the setting that will make you or the other players uncomfortable. But when you alter the baseline setting to remove all the elements you find objectionable then you are also running the risk of playing in your own setting that only superficially resembles Creation as presented.

"If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things" Let us all be clear on what we are talking about. If you are talking real world morality be clear about that. If you are talking in setting morality be clear about that. If you are discussing published Creation be clear about that. If you are discussing your personal variation be clear about that. The burden is on you to make yourself understood when you diverge from the assumed baseline of the discussion.

 

[Kaiya]

You miss my point. I don't care if Creation does or doesn't have objective morality. It is entirely irrelevant to the point I was making. Nor have I ever said brainwashing isn't evil, and I will thank you for not jousting with a strawman or putting words in my mouth.

When we all sit down to play Exalted in Creation part of that is making characters and playing characters that are consistent with the setting. Consider how characters in, say, Forgotten Realms don't spontaneously develop Catholicism with the serial numbers filed off. Importing modern Western ethics into PCs without sufficient in-setting justification creates a significant break of immersion.

No one is forcing you to focus on elements of the setting that will make you or the other players uncomfortable. But when you alter the baseline setting to remove all the elements you find objectionable then you are also running the risk of playing in your own setting that only superficially resembles Creation as presented.

"If names be not correct, language is not in accordance with the truth of things" Let us all be clear on what we are talking about. If you are talking real world morality be clear about that. If you are talking in setting morality be clear about that. If you are discussing published Creation be clear about that. If you are discussing your personal variation be clear about that. The burden is on you to make yourself understood when you diverge from the assumed baseline of the discussion.

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I have said several times I love the existence of Memory Reweaving Discipline and Threefold Binding of the Heart, and never once suggested that elements be removed from the setting. I can only conclude it's you who are jousting at strawmen because you saw me objecting to a problematic OOC view and decided I was trying to ruin Exalted with my SJWness.

 

[Exthalion]

I have said several times I love the existence of Memory Reweaving Discipline and Threefold Binding of the Heart, and never once suggested that elements be removed from the setting. I can only conclude it's you who are jousting at strawmen because you saw me objecting to a problematic OOC view and decided I was trying to ruin Exalted with my SJWness.

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Darn, and after I thanked you not to put words in my mouth. Feel free to keep escalating though, righteous indignation can produce a wonderful endorphin rush.

No, what I saw was this:

And if you do this, you're exactly the monster the Immaculates say you are, because you don't have the right.

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As I pointed out, no one in setting uses rights talk, because no one wrote those books. So no, that is not the kind of monster the Immaculates say you are, because that isn't why they are calling you a monster.

Besides the cynical realpolitik premptive demonization of potential geopolitical rivals, the Immaculates dislike the mind control because it brings people away from the teachings of the Dragons and obedience to the DB dominated natural order. They don't, for the most part, care about the peasants as people but think that the highest moral good is something like the extinction of choice at a time of total obedience to the dragons and their representatives. You are a monster because you make people a you-serving robot rather than a dragons-serving robot. And yes, this is bad for their souls, but it is also a violation of the natural order which is the greater crime. (But you are a demon who stole power from the gods possessing someone who refused to abide by the natural order so that is par for the course.)