I agree about Lillun's story, but I don't really see that as an Ebon Dragon problem. Lillun's storyline taints everyone it touches, from the Empress to Ebbie to random Essence 2 Infernals.

It's definitely true that the tone and emphasis of the portrayals are very different even if the facts are similar. And it is kind of shame that the compassion angle has fallen by the wayside. Maybe someone could take that angle and expand it into a good, game-able, Yozi.

@EarthScorpion did a few decent charms along the lines of a 1e ebon dragon *looks* a while/ back/ I was always sad they never inspired an ebon dragon rewrite like was done for She Who Lives in Her name.

(holy crap, that was really 5 years ago).

But the Yozi we have/had is/was a good one. It did its job admirably well..

Not really.
His charms were always the hardest to justify taking for a heroic character, without homebrew modifications, let alone justify using. Especially when the authors kept adding 'how to be a dick' charms.
 
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Okay I'm working on a 5* artifact that are my Night's arms and legs. She lost two of her limbs in battle and she cut off the rest to dorn these artifacts that now act as her prosthetics. They are a mix of Orichalcum and Red Jade.
What I'm trying to figure out is evocations that represent the sacrifice the wearer has to go through to adorn them. And just maybe something that combos with Heaven Thunder Hammer so I can launch someone by even more range bands. ROCKET KIIICK :V

I've always been terrible at making evocations. I'm scratching my head over what to do with this.
 
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Is there any particular reason for the North to be cold, besides cliches? It's the direction of Air, not Ice, and to my knowledge air has no mystical or occult associations with cold.

The only reason I could come up with is that it's the Direction furthest from the Pole of Fire, but then how would you explain the South's massive desert and sand ships, since logically the South would have the least amount of air movement of any direction.
 
Is there any particular reason for the North to be cold, besides cliches? It's the direction of Air, not Ice, and to my knowledge air has no mystical or occult associations with cold.

The only reason I could come up with is that it's the Direction furthest from the Pole of Fire, but then how would you explain the South's massive desert and sand ships, since logically the South would have the least amount of air movement of any direction.
Ice is generally considered either Air, a of Water and Air, or just Water, at least in pop culture elemental magic. From a gameplay perspective, it gives the 'air' direction as much focus as the other three directions, without taking anything from Water.
 
In Exalted, Air is associated with cold while Water is associated with ice, much the same way that Lightning is also associated with Air but is generally considered a "cold heat" which can ignite things but does not burn the way fire does. Rather than Water, Air is the element most attached to "weather and weather systems," including cold fronts carried by harsh storms and wind, while other elements like Water and Fire deal more with the "ground-level" effects of weather circumstances (like lack of rain causing a drought, or high winds whipping up a forest fire despite being a chilling breeze).

It makes some level of sense to avoid that association except in generalities, because oceans like the West are actually very warm due to the level of salt content and continual movement within the water itself preventing it from dropping to very low temperatures. The average of our own seas on Earth are only 17°C/68°F after all, and that's a huge level of magnitude beyond the coldest temperature we have seen in polar climates (−89°C/−128°F), let alone the fantastic levels of deep-space cold you might find in the furthest North.

To understand its relationship to the South, you have to remember that all the Elemental poles are balanced around the Blessed Isle, not directly opposed to eachother, to help create a temperate and well-manicured paradise at the Imperial Mountain. Its sits between the North and South (cold and warm) and the East and West (lush plains and yearly storms, respectively). So the excesses of the South are not the absences of the North, not any more then the East deserves more conceptual landmass than the West to make room for all the plants.
 
The cold places had to be somewhere, and since the West is generally pretty warm the North was the only other option. South, East, and Blessed Isle are obviously nonstarters.

@EarthScorpion did a few decent charms along the lines of a 1e ebon dragon *looks* a while/ back/ I was always sad they never inspired an ebon dragon rewrite like was done for She Who Lives in Her name.

(holy crap, that was really 5 years ago).

A mixed bag, if you ask me, and some of the good stuff actually fits nicely into the canonical ED. I don't find it too convincing.

Ironically, Melancholy Free Wildness is one of the most morally horrible Charms I've ever seen.

Not really.
His charms were always the hardest to justify taking for a heroic character, without homebrew modifications, let alone justify using. Especially when the authors kept adding 'how to be a dick' charms.

I'm not gonna claim that all those Golden Years Tarnished Black upgrades were necessary. That was a pretty clear case of a writer getting carried away.

But it's honestly fine if you need to be a bit villainous, or at least, anti-heroic to use Ebon Dragon Charms. Infernal Charmsets are like that.

Also, I want to say that this depiction has lead to a new head canon that the Ebon Dragon gets off on his own doomed attempts to escape, and is the patron of Kumagawa's everywhere.

The Medaka Box guy?

Okay I'm working on a 5* artifact that are my Night's arms and legs. She lost two of her limbs in battle and she cut off the rest to dorn these artifacts that now act as her prosthetics. They are a mix of Orichalcum and Red Jade.
What I'm trying to figure out is evocations that represent the sacrifice the wearer has to go through to adorn them. And just maybe something that combos with Heaven Thunder Hammer so I can launch someone by even more range bands. ROCKET KIIICK :V

I've always been terrible at making evocations. I'm scratching my head over what to do with this.

Ideas:

-Negate an attack by having it hit and destroy a limb.
-Draw anger from the jade and pride from the orichalcum to make you stronger and crazier.
-The prosthetics grow into the rest of the body, displacing mortal flesh very painfully but also making you stronger.

Anyway, the Onyx Path forums have a thread for this that seems quite popular. Maybe go there?
 
Is there any particular reason for the North to be cold, besides cliches? It's the direction of Air, not Ice, and to my knowledge air has no mystical or occult associations with cold.

The only reason I could come up with is that it's the Direction furthest from the Pole of Fire, but then how would you explain the South's massive desert and sand ships, since logically the South would have the least amount of air movement of any direction.
Because Exalted insists on dividing Creation up into Five Territory Zones and if it wasn't cold, where else would you put your poorly researched Vikings who are Honourable Warrior Mans from a Land of Cold With Little Agriculture So They Must Raid Foreign Shores???
 
Because Exalted insists on dividing Creation up into Five Territory Zones and if it wasn't cold, where else would you put your poorly researched Vikings who are Honourable Warrior Mans from a Land of Cold With Little Agriculture So They Must Raid Foreign Shores???

In the Desert? For your Barbary Pirates analogue?
 
In Exalted, Air is associated with cold while Water is associated with ice, much the same way that Lightning is also associated with Air but is generally considered a "cold heat" which can ignite things but does not burn the way fire does. Rather than Water, Air is the element most attached to "weather and weather systems," including cold fronts carried by harsh storms and wind, while other elements like Water and Fire deal more with the "ground-level" effects of weather circumstances (like lack of rain causing a drought, or high winds whipping up a forest fire despite being a chilling breeze).

It makes some level of sense to avoid that association except in generalities, because oceans like the West are actually very warm due to the level of salt content and continual movement within the water itself preventing it from dropping to very low temperatures. The average of our own seas on Earth are only 17°C/68°F after all, and that's a huge level of magnitude beyond the coldest temperature we have seen in polar climates (−89°C/−128°F), let alone the fantastic levels of deep-space cold you might find in the furthest North.

To understand its relationship to the South, you have to remember that all the Elemental poles are balanced around the Blessed Isle, not directly opposed to eachother, to help create a temperate and well-manicured paradise at the Imperial Mountain. Its sits between the North and South (cold and warm) and the East and West (lush plains and yearly storms, respectively). So the excesses of the South are not the absences of the North, not any more then the East deserves more conceptual landmass than the West to make room for all the plants.
Huh, that's an interesting perspective. Thank you.

I admit, my issue with the North isn't so much that there's a lot of ice and snow there — it has a massive body of water right in the middle of it, so that makes sense, and I rather enjoy my headcanon of the North being a lot drier before the destruction of the Spidersilk Dam — as it is that it is cold, like all the time. To be more precise, I am confused and irritated by the fact that the North seemingly arbitrarily and definitely illogically has a climate and meteorological aspects commonly associated with the "north" in the real world. For example, it has short growing seasons and long winters, to the point that the Shogunate Legion(?) stationed at what would be Cherek had to go into full-survival mode in order to not starve and/or freeze to death, despite being right on the coast, as close to the more temperate climate of the Blessed Isle as you can be in the North without being in the water.

I have been much less irked by the North since we entered 3e, when they replaced the Great Ice with tundra, so that there isn't miles and miles of frozen water in the far reaches of the direction of Air, but it still very much feels like it was designed to be "the North" first and "elementally and thematically Influence by Air" second.

The cold places had to be somewhere, and since the West is generally pretty warm the North was the only other option. South, East, and Blessed Isle are obviously nonstarters.

The Medaka Box guy?
In mountainous regions? In or nearby powerful demanses, or Wyld Zones? In the Wyld itself? I do feel like the iceberg riding guys don't get enough spotlight.

Yeah, him. The guy who knows that he's the villain going up against the hero and protagonist armed with the power of Shounen and friendship, but still declares that he wants to win.

Because Exalted insists on dividing Creation up into Five Territory Zones and if it wasn't cold, where else would you put your poorly researched Vikings who are Honourable Warrior Mans from a Land of Cold With Little Agriculture So They Must Raid Foreign Shores???
I know, right? It's not helped by the fact that they don't even really raid foreign shores, or that the Rajtul — the most properly Viking-like people in my mind — are more traders than raiders IIRC, and have a disappointingly tiny word count compared to how awesome and interesting they are.

In the Desert? For your Barbary Pirates analogue?
On a semi-related note, I feel like the People of the Dunes empire that the Shogunate smothered in its infancy is one of Exalted's greatest missed opportunities.
 
I have been much less irked by the North since we entered 3e, when they replaced the Great Ice with tundra, so that there isn't miles and miles of frozen water in the far reaches of the direction of Air, but it still very much feels like it was designed to be "the North" first and "elementally and thematically Influence by Air" second.
As someone who lives in what could be reasonably be called Earth's own "North," the retconing of the Great Ice is a huge disservice, since the huge glaciers which stick around here all year and never melt are by and large the most interesting feature of the landscape anywhere that maintains a steady lowish temperature. If there is too much Water in the North for it to be justified as Air-aspected, then there's also a claim to be made that 3 of the 4 outer-Directions also contain way too much ground, with the Blessed Isle being both an island and the Pole of Earth at the same time.

Looking at it all and thinking "ho hum, just ice and snow, nothing cool here" and replacing it with tundra of all things as some kind of alternative is no different than replacing the majority of the Hundred Kingdoms with plains of arid, featureless scrubland in lieu of thinking up things to Be There. Because while I am far from an expert on the subject, buckling down and actually outlining a landscape shaped by deep-cold and eternal glaciers is a vastly more compelling prospect we've lost now, as a result of someone not knowing the material any better.

Unlike what you might think, year-round ice is always moving, whether it is a glacier or an ice-floe. Most of it moves so imperceptibly that you could be standing right atop it and never know until you return some time later and notice things seem Off. Subglacial lakes inside the ice sheets could criss-cross an area for miles, populated inside by polar-adapted wyld mutants who emerge at night-time from their moulins to hunt, the largest of these lakes eventually forming tremendous ice caverns like lava tubes where the outer crust breaks open from the continual movement and floods the surrounding landscape unexpectedly. Imagine a landscape that slides around and away from itself in slow motion during the hotter summer months, freshwater lakes that have existed for years or decades from thaw runoff which disappear overnight into cracks in the earth, and howling windstorms funneled by the ice and mountains into battering waves which kick up dirt and snow to make you doubt your senses and your memory of where your tracks have been.

The ice-scape might have moved so little for so long there might have grown whole forests across the soil and moss frozen to the glaciers top sides, giving lie it is even a sheet of ice at all, but nevertheless any major landmark or encampment will eventually begin to drift out of alignment, surging up to 300 feet in a day. And these surges are notable not simply for what they push aside and move around, but what they preserve. Where most might hope for old technologies of the past, ancient cities and even traces of old societies might lie buried within the ice, piled under layers of unseen Northern landscapes still locked in time from millennia prior. Some of these might be carried up inside the ice as heaving waves of displaced ruins, peeled from their foundations and suspended hundreds of yards in the air as though caught in a frozen tsunami, waiting for some brave expedition of intrepid scavenger lords to scale the cliffside and free it.

Snow-blindness from the bright summer sun becomes a brutal fact of life when the weather lets up enough to hunt or travel, and navigation by night and astrology regularly fails as the sky-spanning auroral lights drown out the stars with patches of empty void between. Where the ice has left or retreated looks like a blasted, alien landscape which heaves and buckles as the underlying permafrost freezes and thaws the earth, or like a trench scooped up by a giant hand, every rock and boulder ground to fine sand and rocky debris by the process of being relentlessly tumbled in from miles distant. When the ice has been moving too much, far too fast, Glacial Earthquakes rock the countryside, setting off chain-surges along with avalanches and landslides that reshape whole canyons and river flows, while sections of the landscape begin crumbling away where the ice-hollows and deep-ice lakes can't hold the strain.

Only the frozen fog rolling in with winter assures some margin of stability as everything slowly locks back in place, but this certainty and safety of a static world comes at the cost of the deadly cold. As the temperature drops, so does a dozen of feet of snow, weighing down everything not quick enough to outpace it. The few Northern societies which aren't nomadic must fortify against regular blizzards like bombing raids, reinforcing roofs and walls to prevent any standing structure from caving in under several tons of nearly-unmovable snow per year.

Stuff like that, evocative stuff. Because while Creation might be a place where people live, it is also a world intended to Adventure In, which sort of demands a place to find adventure. There is no adventure to be found out on the tundra, only ice bogs and caribou.

If you want tundra, the North-East is the way better place to direct that intent, because at least that way you can have stunted krummholz forests gnarling their way across tall hills and the steadily climbing mountains, which create a more foreboding transition to the land of perpetual snows.
 
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Today in "Gift to the West", a solo Abyssal game being run for me by @horngeek, I managed to have my character:

- Rock up offshore of a nordic tribe in a first rate warship and at the end of a mixed crew of ghosts and hardened mortals, since we're going full Age of Sail here.
- Bluntly inform the inhabitants that their lives, land and sacred places (a fire demense useful for producing gunpowder) were all now the property of the Grand Unified Monarchy of Skullstone
- Offer a wager to the mortal Jarl that if she could land a wound on me in a duel her people would be given time to evacuate rather than being outright butchered, with a further stipulation that they could flee even if she lost in exchange for a kiss
- Defeat said Jarl in a crushingly one-sided exchange that finished with an utterly ineffectual decisive attack that my character decided to just outright waive her defense against
- Claim the spoils of victory in the form of a night of passion with the defeated Jarl back aboard ship while Skullstone marines carefully oversaw the forcible eviction of the tribe from their lands. (Consent variable depending on where you draw the line on social charms).

Gift of Welcome Oblivion is a terrible person and I'm having a tremendous amount of fun playing such an unrepentently imperialist villain.
 
If you want tundra, the North-East is the way better place to direct that intent, because at least that way you can have stunted krummholz forests gnarling their way across tall hills and the steadily climbing mountains, which create a more foreboding transition to the land of perpetual snows.
Seems to me the vastly more simple solution is:
-North - Tundra and mountain valleys, the wind blowing across permafrost plains and howling in the chasms.
-Northwest - Glaciers/Arctic Ice, massive ice sheets crawling over the land and sea.
-West - The great ocean, islands far apart, where the land is as often as not coral or some great beast of the sea.
-Southwest - Tropical Ocean, volcanic archipelagos
-South - Burning Desert
-Southeast - Tropical Jungle/Rainforest, where the beasts are hungry and the trees are too.
-East - Deep forest
-Northeast - Taiga, frozen, wolf haunted forests
 
So threefold binding of the heart, that infamous spell that a lot of GMs tend to ban and all that. Naturally, most uses tend to make you a bad person in a deliciously exalted way (stealing a Dragonblooded Generals love for their family and directing those ties of honor towards yourself instead..)

I was wondering if it had a chance of coming to 3e and if so what the control effects might be (people being less obviously yandere for you?)

Then it had me thinking if there was enough positive uses for it to be brought over to 3e (rather then just having it as a project). So I figure I'd ask for stories of it being used to enhance the campaign, rather than ruin or destroy it.


One incident I can remember was a sorcerer binding a particularly annoying outcast that had been a thorn in his side into being their Major-domo/head bodyguard. Only for the Dragonblooded to stay in the role after the spell had been broken, because it was the first time they had been trusted with real power. Admittedly after a bit of violence for binding them in the first place.
 
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Unlike what you might think, year-round ice is always moving, whether it is a glacier or an ice-floe.
1st edition Exalted had Mount Mostath, a behemoth that moves mountains and glaciers, and it's referred to as the Herder of Mountains.

So, yes... the North isn't just a frozen thundra... it has mountains and glaciers. Which move about... some of them courtesy of Mostath, but not all.
 
So threefold binding of the heart, that infamous spell that a lot of GMs tend to ban and all that. Naturally, most uses tend to make you a bad person in a deliciously exalted way (stealing a Dragonblooded Generals love for their family and directing those ties of honor towards yourself instead..)

I was wondering if it had a chance of coming to 3e and if so what the control effects might be (people being less obviously yandere for you?)

Then it had me thinking if there was enough positive uses for it to be brought over to 3e (rather then just having it as a project). So I figure I'd ask for stories of it being used to enhance the campaign, rather than ruin or destroy it.


One incident I can remember was a sorcerer binding a particularly annoying outcast that had been a thorn in his side into being their Major-domo/head bodyguard. Only for the Dragonblooded to stay in the role after the spell had been broken, because it was the first time they had been trusted with real power. Admittedly after a bit of violence for binding them in the first place.
It only having negative uses is not a reason for it to not be ported. Magic shouldn't exist only for positivity. If there's not a way to steal the will of others, to bind their hearts to you and only you, to be the wicked sorcerer of legend who heroes rise up to cast down, why even have magic?

In any case, ritual duration, rolloff of Manipulation+Essence against their Willpower or some such, inflicting a Derangement of love for you that cannot be lowered without some powerful magic.

The most obvious use of it for a campaign is being the victim of it, your PC bound to another that you love and adore, only for the slow revelation of their evil and that they stole your heart and will from you, and the struggle for your friends to free you from your curse.
 
threefold binding isn't even evil tho. I mean yeah it's fuckin gross if you use it like a creeper to get dates, or use it on other PCs, but it's no more evil than social charms.
 
I like glaciers, glaciers are cool. My problem is that it doesn't feel like the glaciers were put there to be cool, it feels like they were put there because it's The North and you need to have Glaciers In The North. Why couldn't they they do something that's cold but still more elementally appropriate, like icy Tornado Alley or something?

And if the elemental Aspect doesn't matter (and I agree it really shouldn't, given that yeah, the Blessed Isle is an island; at least it should matter a lot less than it seems to) then why doesn't the North have a bunch of volcanos so you can have magical Iceland?

Having reflected on this matter some, I think part of it is that a lot of the North is tainted to me by perceived hypocrisy on the setting design level. A number of people have told me, over the course of the time I've participated in the Exalted fandom, that the reason Exalted does or does not have X Setting Widget is because when it was first made, Exalted was trying to stand out and be different from the standard Medieval Europe setting that dominated fantasy RPGs. Yet despite this claim, the North feels so utterly generic to me. That's not a logical opinion, I realize it, but it's a definite part of why I The North irks me the way it does.
 
threefold binding isn't even evil tho. I mean yeah it's fuckin gross if you use it like a creeper to get dates, or use it on other PCs, but it's no more evil than social charms.
It's no more evil than social charms that are mind rape charms, no. But most social charms are not mind rape charms, and threefold binding is incredibly, abominably evil. It is the subversion of someone's ability to choose to love you, instead breaking into their mind, and forcing them to. It is a monstrously evil power, one of the most awful I've ever seen in any form of fiction.

Removing someone's ability to choose, not by persuading them, but simply deciding what you want them to do and remaking them to do it, is evil. This is not in question.
 
Is it really that awful compared to other forms of mind control out there (in exalted or otherwise)?

Like, maybe I'm misinterpreting your levels of vitriol, but it seems like you hold this particular spell in extreme contempt compared other brainwashing powers.
 
The north as presented is pretty tepid as far as setting interest goes- I almost always come away from reading this vague norsemen/viking pastiche when it's not trying to hew a bit more towards innuit/eskimo cultural tropes and herder cultures. A good example of what I think 'The North' did wrong is one of the regional cuisines in one of the northern nation-states, based on Kæstur hákarl ; the fermented shark dish. This... isn't wrong in and of itself, but it's unfortunate because it comes off as lazy when it could have been Cool.

Like, I've mentioned it before, but Otoyomogatari is one of my go-to references for 'Mortal Life' in Creation- and in terms of climate and culture it falls pretty neatly into the 'Northern' groups that Creation desperately needs. Not like FAR north on the Great Ice, but those big areas.

I think also worth noting is that people to this day undersell how phenomenally big Creation is, to the point that there are mountains other than the Imperial Mountain- forests beyond that of the Far East. Hills, rivers and valleys that the maps of the world we have do not and cannot show. Take a look at this article full of pictures, seven-mile chunks of our planet. Note that I walk about a mile 8 times a week to get to and from my bus stop.

And those images focus on urban sprawls as much as unclaimed wilderness- and even then most of us have been there at some point or another if for no other reason than to map it.

So what I'm trying to say is that for good or ill, Creation is huge and can be far denser than it's maps imply, and unfortunately the game did not give us the tools we needed to do so out of the box. Instead it relied on us doing research and investigating things like anthropology and cartography and geography to really understand how the world works.
 
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