General Exalted Thread
I'm not actually indignant. Just mildly irritated by the continued pointless digression. But, yeah, no, I don't actually agree that Immaculates don't give a shit about the peasants. Certainly some don't, but plenty do just care about people, because caring about the welfare of your inferiors is, in fact, a foundational part of the Immaculate Texts. This overfocus on cynical real politic and making everyone in the setting a heartless asshole because of an overfocus on certain cynical bits of text is one of the most tiring parts of discussing Exalted.
It doesn't matter that rights aren't an in-setting thing. They're an out of setting thing, and my point stands: You are a horrifying monster bloated on power you should never have had if you're the sort of person using Memory-Reweaving Discipline to get your way by violating people's right to make their own decisions and have their own mind, and the monster you are is very much like the vision of horror the Immaculates preach to Creation, empty philosophical diversions aside.
This is not actually supported by the Immaculate texts, and Dragonblooded lack native psyche magic like the Solars get. You're supposed to obey the Dragonblooded because it's a good choice to make that brings you closer to nirvana, not because obediance is a good thing in and of itself. A Dragonblooded ripping out the minds of mortals with Sorcery and enslaving them to his will is very likely to get an angry visit from the Immaculates if found out, because that kind of shit is exactly what you're not supposed to be doing, and violates the Exalted responsibility to look after the well-being of those beneath you. Abuses happen, and Dragonblooded get away with them, and when they are punished, it's often with a light hand. But that doesn't make the Immaculate Faith an evil demon religion for brainwashing the peasantry, and acting like it is such is missing the point of the really complex, cool setting that is Exalted as much as @Exthalion 's ridiculous strawman accused me of doing.
TenfoldShields
Lounging on a Hoard of Words
- Pronouns
- He/Him
apropos of literally nothing
hot take: thorns would be massively improved if you just made it a weird colonial holding and the mask of winter's personal petri dish. so it's undergoing a necromantic renaissance and for all that it's mega-haunted is super vibrant and alive (lol), which makes it a super nice contrast to @ManusDomini 's lookshy.
just think of all the fucky fun shit you could have
-a skinless minotaur and a centuries dead philosopher having an ideological screaming match outside a tea shop at three in the morning
-long lost fashions, schools of thought, and architectural styles dating back to the contagion all being thrown together and sloshed around, it's so dated it wraps back around to new and in vogue
-the mask's personal police force keep mass abducting people and dumping them back onto the streets more-or-less-intact except they're varied monsters of the night.
-relatedly: this is why half the bureaucracy are now blood-drinking bat-ghoul monsters and the captain of the civil guard is literally a possessed suit of armor a la alphonse elric
-the entire city's had to make the switch to nocturnal mode because that's when most of the ghosts and monsters are out and about and they buy shit too
it'd actually be a place you probably had a reason to visit
hot take: thorns would be massively improved if you just made it a weird colonial holding and the mask of winter's personal petri dish. so it's undergoing a necromantic renaissance and for all that it's mega-haunted is super vibrant and alive (lol), which makes it a super nice contrast to @ManusDomini 's lookshy.
just think of all the fucky fun shit you could have
-a skinless minotaur and a centuries dead philosopher having an ideological screaming match outside a tea shop at three in the morning
-long lost fashions, schools of thought, and architectural styles dating back to the contagion all being thrown together and sloshed around, it's so dated it wraps back around to new and in vogue
-the mask's personal police force keep mass abducting people and dumping them back onto the streets more-or-less-intact except they're varied monsters of the night.
-relatedly: this is why half the bureaucracy are now blood-drinking bat-ghoul monsters and the captain of the civil guard is literally a possessed suit of armor a la alphonse elric
-the entire city's had to make the switch to nocturnal mode because that's when most of the ghosts and monsters are out and about and they buy shit too
it'd actually be a place you probably had a reason to visit
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You will notice I began that section with "besides". Almost as if I were acknowledging the existence of motives besides the cynical bits. You didn't actually refute me though. If you actually read what I wrote instead of throwing me into the category of "obsessed with cynicism" it might help progress the discussion.
I never said that Immaculates don't care about the peasants. I said what they want for the peasants has nothing to do with the natural rights of the peasants.
People can do things motivated by compassion which the subjects of that compassion don't want. Speaking as a gay man, there are a lot of Christians who sincerely believe that trying to fix gay people is for their own good and that acting against the wishes of gay people is saving their souls. We require some people who are mentally ill to receive medication against their wishes.
So, to repeat, what makes the Anathema mind control magic bad, to the Immaculates, has nothing to do with rights. It has to do with making people not be good Immaculates. Good Immaculates view being a good Immaculate as an objective good. Forcing people to be good Immaculates is perfectly fine, and they will use the tools available to them to make the peasants good Immaculates.
This idea exists in the real world. There are moralists and Christian sects that argue that true freedom is being freed from all the things, including your own urges, that get in the way of obeying the moral law or serving god. Essentially, that true freedom is to choose continual submission to a particular standard or norm. The Immaculates are the same way. That is why they would say it is wrong.
I have never disputed this, and your continued assertion of it makes me suspect you aren't reading for more than the first objectional if misinterprited point I make in each post.
You remain free to make out of character judgments of people in setting. You may even be right. But I don't care if you are right because that has nothing to do with this discussion. Characters will not use your moral reasoning because it doesn't exist in setting. How people behave in setting, including player characters, will require other moral frameworks. If you care about the characters making sense given the backgrounds they would have had.
I never once said that they would. This was never an IC discussion. You made it one. Which is why I'm getting increasingly annoyed with your continued insistence on irrelevancies about Creation IC. There is nothing you can possibly teach me about Creation IC. If I don't already run the game with it in mind, it's because I found it annoying or poorly suited to my purposes and discarded it. This whole thing started from someone declaring magic used which forces one to fall head over heels in love to be just another form of social magic and thus not evil.
I don't care, not the slightest bit, not one iota, about IC reactions to Threefold Binding or the varied moral frameworks of Creation. Stop telling me about IC reactions. Stop acting like I don't know that Creation isn't a morally-neutral setting, metaphysics-wise. Stop lecturing me on how I'm not reading your posts while you refuse to read and continue to windmill-tilt at mine.
The Immaculate order is well-known for criticising and protesting abuse of mortals by Dynasts, going so far as to have their monks protest the local rulers if polite words don't work. "The Solars don't get to abuse you, we do" really doesn't fit into their philosophy, at all.
Again, you made it about IC when you blended your OOC criticism of TBotH and MRD with the Immaculate condemnation of Solars.
I have never been engaging with your OOC criticism. Several times I have stated I don't care about the morality of such magic for the purpose of this discussion. In the same sentence, you brought rights talk into Immaculate doctrine. That is what I have always been objecting to.
So it was entirely appropriate to reply to you with IC logic when you made an IC claim.
Edit:
However, I will apologize for not being as clear as I should have been about that up front, for being more vehement in my replies that such a minor point warranted, and replying in a manner and tone which appears to have aggravated you.
For all of that, I am sorry.
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I made no IC claim. You keep acting like I do. I used a metaphor to communicate the idea that hey, this is a nasty power. I then said, many times, that we're not talking IC. Stop. Talking. About. IC. We are not talking about IC. We have never been talking IC. I'm not and have never been talking IC. Is that clear enough? Because this was never about IC claims. At any point, in the entire discussion. At all. Period. Full stop.
Right, so given that this debate has veered from "morality in Exalted" to "You said that I said that you said that I did this," and therefore off topic, I'm going to ask that @Exthalion and @Kaiya drop this line of discussion or take it to the PMs.
That is all I wanted, for this to drop.
In what is meant as an on-topic olive branch, and will likely be taken as a tone-deaf stocking of the fire:
Yajnaka, God of Dross and Slag
One of many "two-faced" gods, Yajnaka combines in himself two aspects that appear only tangentially related and consequently counts two very different sorts of people in his cult.
The first are those who consider his portfolio literally: smiths and alchemists, but also cooks, gardeners, doctors and others who must remove or dispose of something unwanted as part of a creative process. They do not love him, but they often seek to placate him to ensure none of him remains in their works, be that literal slag in metal or necrotic tissue in a wound. However, more relevant, and beneficent, gods receive far more worship.
The second are far less likely to admit their devotion. Those who possess something they wish to be rid of will chant the same prayers as the smiths for it to be taken from them. Painful memories, unwanted compulsions, and guilt over shameful deeds are but the beginning of what people wish to be rid of.
Rituals by the second sort of faithful frequently involve burning of symbolic representations of the unwanted thing, often something of personal significance such as the chair a dead father always sat in or an old lover's scarf. Some people leaving their old life behind will burn their home and all their possessions as a sacrifice to Yajnaka, though this practice is forbidden by most cities and priests because of the risk of starting a major fire.
Often, this is enough. Time smooths away the raw edges and piles new concerns on top of old. It is never as quick or complete as most would like, though Yajnaka's priests often say that there was something of worth mixed in with with the bad, something that built them up or made them stronger as a person. This is rarely satisfying.
The holiest rituals of Yajnaka are both more effective and more questionable. Alchemical fluxes of the workman's blood that draw out impurities even as they purge themselves, mind-altering drugs combined with fasting and prayer, and, of course, true magic.
The holiest temple of Yajnaka is found in the South, a far journey into the desert where a molten cleft releases strange vapors. Built of irregular blocks of discarded wood, stone, and true slag, it is a quiet and somewhat austere place given how little regular prayer the god receives.
Within the courtyard a massive bonfire releases a cloud of thick black smoke. In it, all the tokens cast away in Yajnaka's name yet burn. In ancient times some rare few sorcerer-smiths and ascetics used it to refine impossible metals or their own bodies in preparation for great works. Yet that was never why most people came. Sacrifices with true meaning cast into the fire here will burn away not only the objects but also the memories and aspects of the one who makes the offering.
Some say even the archives of Heaven will record nothing about such matters, though others believe they are merely sealed until a hundred years after the death of the penitent, at which point few have any reason to inquire.
Some have found, to their sorrow, that the fire does not burn all things. Just as slag and dross are removed from something of value but are not valuable themselves, Yajnaka has no power over things of true worth. Recently a former monk threw themself into the pyre hoping to be free of their curse, only to emerge whole and more themself than they had ever been.
Yajnaka, God of Dross and Slag
One of many "two-faced" gods, Yajnaka combines in himself two aspects that appear only tangentially related and consequently counts two very different sorts of people in his cult.
The first are those who consider his portfolio literally: smiths and alchemists, but also cooks, gardeners, doctors and others who must remove or dispose of something unwanted as part of a creative process. They do not love him, but they often seek to placate him to ensure none of him remains in their works, be that literal slag in metal or necrotic tissue in a wound. However, more relevant, and beneficent, gods receive far more worship.
The second are far less likely to admit their devotion. Those who possess something they wish to be rid of will chant the same prayers as the smiths for it to be taken from them. Painful memories, unwanted compulsions, and guilt over shameful deeds are but the beginning of what people wish to be rid of.
Rituals by the second sort of faithful frequently involve burning of symbolic representations of the unwanted thing, often something of personal significance such as the chair a dead father always sat in or an old lover's scarf. Some people leaving their old life behind will burn their home and all their possessions as a sacrifice to Yajnaka, though this practice is forbidden by most cities and priests because of the risk of starting a major fire.
Often, this is enough. Time smooths away the raw edges and piles new concerns on top of old. It is never as quick or complete as most would like, though Yajnaka's priests often say that there was something of worth mixed in with with the bad, something that built them up or made them stronger as a person. This is rarely satisfying.
The holiest rituals of Yajnaka are both more effective and more questionable. Alchemical fluxes of the workman's blood that draw out impurities even as they purge themselves, mind-altering drugs combined with fasting and prayer, and, of course, true magic.
The holiest temple of Yajnaka is found in the South, a far journey into the desert where a molten cleft releases strange vapors. Built of irregular blocks of discarded wood, stone, and true slag, it is a quiet and somewhat austere place given how little regular prayer the god receives.
Within the courtyard a massive bonfire releases a cloud of thick black smoke. In it, all the tokens cast away in Yajnaka's name yet burn. In ancient times some rare few sorcerer-smiths and ascetics used it to refine impossible metals or their own bodies in preparation for great works. Yet that was never why most people came. Sacrifices with true meaning cast into the fire here will burn away not only the objects but also the memories and aspects of the one who makes the offering.
Some say even the archives of Heaven will record nothing about such matters, though others believe they are merely sealed until a hundred years after the death of the penitent, at which point few have any reason to inquire.
Some have found, to their sorrow, that the fire does not burn all things. Just as slag and dross are removed from something of value but are not valuable themselves, Yajnaka has no power over things of true worth. Recently a former monk threw themself into the pyre hoping to be free of their curse, only to emerge whole and more themself than they had ever been.
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- Location
- Ottawa
This is what I'm arguing against.
I actually don't particularly believe in objective morality. But if there is an objective moral code, there's no sane reason to expect anything as petty as victory to have any effect on it.
There's no reason it couldn't either. What I don't get is why people automatically assume that any objective moral code has to be Western-based in nature or even that it had to be human-centric in the first place.
- Location
- Ottawa
For what it's worth, I'm not assuming that. I could totally see a moral system where all of human existence is objectively wrong.
I just think that it's silly to act like Exalted's lack of credible moral authorities and punishment for the wicked has any affect at all on whether objective morality holds in it.
I just think that it's silly to act like Exalted's lack of credible moral authorities and punishment for the wicked has any affect at all on whether objective morality holds in it.
To be clear, I don't hold that objective morality actually exists. But the lack of magical rules telling us what is capital G good doesn't change what generally results in pleasant things and what generally results in unpleasant things.
Seriously, the conversation was never about objective morality and I don't know what it is about Exalted that when you say mindrape is bad, people go NOT OBJECTIVELY. Nothing is gained from pointing that out.
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- Location
- Denmark
- Pronouns
- She/Her
#manusnephandi
Jon Chung
=][=
- Location
- East of the Sun and West of the Moon
*agreeing Midnight Caste noises*
>dislike: dog and furry animalMy Zenith (that I'll never get to play since nobody want a giant skeleton dating plot in their campaign)
Objectively the worst character.
Biigoh
Tanuki
- Location
- Tanukia
The tanuki know what is objectively right in Creation.
When one wakes up, one should pray to the gods for waking up.
When one has a meal, one should thank the gods for the meal.
Before bed, one should pray and thank the gods for the day going well.
Before going forth into battle, one should pray to the gods that victory comes to the righteous believers of the gods. And that the evil disbelievers get smited.
In victory, one should pray and make offerings to the gods in thanks for the victory.
In defeat, one should pray to the gods and apologize for failing to bring victory in their name.
And on days held holy by the gods, one should pray to the gods extra and make burnt offerings to them. The Unconquered Sun is said to find sacrifices where hearts are cut out and offered up as good.
One should also not murder other people unless instructed by the gods.
One should also not steal from other people unless instructed by the gods. And that includes stealing someone's husband/wife/child/family member.
When one wakes up, one should pray to the gods for waking up.
When one has a meal, one should thank the gods for the meal.
Before bed, one should pray and thank the gods for the day going well.
Before going forth into battle, one should pray to the gods that victory comes to the righteous believers of the gods. And that the evil disbelievers get smited.
In victory, one should pray and make offerings to the gods in thanks for the victory.
In defeat, one should pray to the gods and apologize for failing to bring victory in their name.
And on days held holy by the gods, one should pray to the gods extra and make burnt offerings to them. The Unconquered Sun is said to find sacrifices where hearts are cut out and offered up as good.
One should also not murder other people unless instructed by the gods.
One should also not steal from other people unless instructed by the gods. And that includes stealing someone's husband/wife/child/family member.
- Location
- Singapore
I just realized something.
We need a catbus.
We need a catbus.
>dislike: dog and furry animal
Objectively the worst character.
He's not an animal hater! He likes spider and centipede, or those landsquid that eat your inside and wear you like a skin suit, these are much better pet than dogs I guarantee it.
apropos of literally nothing
hot take: thorns would be massively improved if you just made it a weird colonial holding and the mask of winter's personal petri dish. so it's undergoing a necromantic renaissance and for all that it's mega-haunted is super vibrant and alive (lol), which makes it a super nice contrast to @ManusDomini 's lookshy.
just think of all the fucky fun shit you could have
-a skinless minotaur and a centuries dead philosopher having an ideological screaming match outside a tea shop at three in the morning
-long lost fashions, schools of thought, and architectural styles dating back to the contagion all being thrown together and sloshed around, it's so dated it wraps back around to new and in vogue
-the mask's personal police force keep mass abducting people and dumping them back onto the streets more-or-less-intact except they're varied monsters of the night.
-relatedly: this is why half the bureaucracy are now blood-drinking bat-ghoul monsters and the captain of the civil guard is literally a possessed suit of armor a la alphonse elric
-the entire city's had to make the switch to nocturnal mode because that's when most of the ghosts and monsters are out and about and they buy shit too
it'd actually be a place you probably had a reason to visit
That'd be rad af- personally I'd give the Mask revolutionary overtones and Napoleonesque... also overtones if you went this route.