thats fine

the realm can just sue it

through prayer
Indeed.

In fact, since Koli is no longer a single mere mortal, but a member of a group, the cult could, through its influence and connections, spread the tale of Yukgo-Vefar's cruelty and the tragic death of Koli's brother, and pressure local Immaculate monasteries to reduce the number of festivals, etc., that Y-V gets on their calendar, overall reducing the amount of prayer he gets in the region.

Magical, isn't it?
 
I mean that's the point at which the Immaculate Monks start contacting the other celestial gods they know and start saying things like:

"So I think we can add in another prayer day for you and maybe one of your friends, plus appropriate material tribute, if you could just track down this one particular dude and fuck him the hell up"

"Or just send him on an errand to Creation or something at a particular time and place so we can do it instead, whichever works."
 
I mean that's the point at which the Immaculate Monks start contacting the other celestial gods they know and start saying things like:

"So I think we can add in another prayer day for you and maybe one of your friends, plus appropriate material tribute, if you could just track down this one particular dude and fuck him the hell up"

"Or just send him on an errand to Creation or something at a particular time and place so we can do it instead, whichever works."
...Do Immaculate Monks know all that many Celestial Gods, though?
 
That doesn't change my point? I don't remember the context of that argument nor discussion, I haven't thought about it for more than a week, and I have no interest in refreshing myself on a nine day old argument.
Oh. No worries. I remember perfectly.

See, there was a new demon. A third circle, that could kindle feelings of anger and rebellion and hate.

I asked if it could turn a solar's kingdom against them. I.e. can hit or at least challenge a solar in his own terms.

Ah. Then that's fine.

So if you wish to break apart a fellow ship, like a circle of solars or a sworn brotherhood, you use him?

I mean i'd summon him if i wanted to turn a loyal satrapy against the realm by poisoning all their food and water with "fuck the realm" flavored poison.

Or turn a solar's loyal tiger warriors and kingdom against him?

Sure! But like, using him against people who have their own wide scale loyalty enforcing and emotional magic is gonna run right up against difficulties

Ah. But this is a third circle demon.

One of the few things capable of challenging a solar exalted.

"challenge" does not mean "effortlessly overwhelm"

Um.... yes. And? So?

Your preconceptions do not reflect the reality of the game. Stop assuming they do so, and listen when someone is telling you "That's not how this works."

So... that last line. Where on earth did you get that from? All I said was 'Challenge'. Not 'effortlessly overwhelm'.
 
I honestly wish Exalted considered what spirit killing should be, so it could decide if it should be an epic feat or the basic measure of an Exalt; the current in-between state is annoying.
also yes this. It's really frustrating! Particularly since, like, literally any Essence 3 DB with a bit of Occult investment could do it in Second Edition. It seems like a weird choice to walk back on a thing that made the Dragonblooded a big damn deal to the powers of the world, given how much they got otherwise crapped on.
 
Oh. No worries. I remember perfectly.

See, there was a new demon. A third circle, that could kindle feelings of anger and rebellion and hate.

I asked if it could turn a solar's kingdom against them. I.e. can hit or at least challenge a solar in his own terms.

















So... that last line. Where on earth did you get that from? All I said was 'Challenge'. Not 'effortlessly overwhelm'.
Take. The. Hint. I am not doing this! I am not rehashing a 9 day old argument!
 
also yes this. It's really frustrating! Particularly since, like, literally any Essence 3 DB with a bit of Occult investment could do it in Second Edition. It seems like a weird choice to walk back on a thing that made the Dragonblooded a big damn deal to the powers of the world, given how much they got otherwise crapped on.

It's a bit of an issue, because I've actually come to dislike easy spirit killing a lot, and prefer the weird work-arounds that the Dragon-Blooded Charmset has, but when Solars do have easy spirit-killing it just feels so weird!
 
Hmph.

Anyway, back on an old argument...

I've been trying to write up a demon that's basically the Nydus worm from the Zerg Swarm. Basically, an extendable tunnel that lets you mass transport units across great distances, in incredibly short periods of time.

It basically, in an RTS, lets you transport units across the map without them being intercepted. So you can get reinforcements from your base quickly. I made one here, but it was... clunky, at best.

Tell me, I remember there were toad mouths that let you enter Malfeas and they were portals. Is this feasible?
 
It's a bit of an issue, because I've actually come to dislike easy spirit killing a lot, and prefer the weird work-arounds that the Dragon-Blooded Charmset has, but when Solars do have easy spirit-killing it just feels so weird!
I sorta get that, they are explicitly the strongest with the easiest tricks. I just don't like Dragonblooded having to be Essence 4 masters of esoteric martial styles to do it, when it used to be "Any moderately experienced Dragonblooded with a knack for the Occult could, with some difficulty, kill a spirit permanently." When a Dragonblooded exorcist comes knocking, the spirit knows shit just got real, I liked that! Now it's "At Essence 5 you can imprison them for awhile" and it's just...fucking really? Really? My Essence 5 Dragonblooded master Occultist can't spirit kill? When it's an Essence 1 Solar Charm? I thought we were past this "Solars forever, Dragonblooded never" stuff.
 
Spirit-Killing has always been a very clear and strong "both" to me.

It is a big, big deal. It is not an easy thing. It is either done in according to Fate and the laws set down when Creation was born, and thus with the might of all Heaven behind it -- or it is a deeply unnatural thing made possible only by Autochthon's sickness. The death of a god without proper sanction is very much the same blighted thing that is the death of a Primordial; it seems lesser only because it happens to be smaller, and less grand.

-- And the Exalts - any Exalt, even the least of the least of their number - can do it casually, like turning over a hand.

That was the point. That was always the point. That was why they were made - and why they were terrifying.

Nobody but Exalts get casual, no-roleplay-requirement spirit killers. Exalts get such spirit killers right out of the gate.

(... okay, and then maybe Literally Saturn Herself, and the UCS in his role as King of Heaven, and so on. But outside of a few, individually-justified exceptions, and things that are conceptually extensions of those exceptions and their authority... no. No casual spirit killers.)
 
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If I'm not mistaken, I believe that any god who kills another god is capable of deciding that they remain permanently dead and/or turn them into starmetal.
 
Setting aside canoncity for a second (because let's not pretend that canon isn't a fucking mess or that 90% of people aren't working off their own headspace):

A. Acting like everyone in setting has read the handbook is dumb as fuck and counterproductive to cultivating a, like, sense of mysticism and mystery about the world which is Important for something like Exalted that seems to pride itself on shit like mysticism and mystery and getting to go dick around with both.

B. Acting like the Gods are weird sociopaths with no connection to human values is actively poisonous to doing anything with them ever.

Yeah yeah I'm gonna elaborate on both :V. It's not me just dropping in for a hot take or w/e.

From a Watsonian perspective it's important to note that many, if not most Gods, are not going to be some super well informed spirit who was there at the very beginning for the Primordial War and Laughs At These Silly Peasant Superstitions. I mean for one, iirc, you can absolutely get Gods that follow the Immaculate line which kinda speaks for itself. For another Creation's been through multiple apocalypses and Heaven hasn't been exempt from any of them. The War in Heaven likely had a monstrous death toll in terms of divine beings 'cause even if the Gods were bound by geas the Primordials were not above venting frustration and anger on their unruly slaves. The Three Spheres Cataclysm (per Games of Divinity, y'know the superior one that doesn't have it as some weird continent destroying thing) fucked with the setting's fundamental metaphysics, making the strong stronger and the weak weaker and chaining the weak to the strong; burning a horrifically unknown amount of Stuff to ash in the process and removing it from all memory.

And the Twin Troubles are...well I mean you had gods getting butchered by rakshasa and rising dead and Gods contracting the plague and dying in such massive numbers that Heaven straight up shut its doors and enacted a quarantine of Creation. Beyond that? The way the Jade Pleasure Dome itself works is that the more powerful, potent, and best informed Gods are by and large also the ones jockeying the hardest for seats and increasingly indifferent to anything that doesn't serve that purpose 'cause divine addiction is no laughing matter yo.

Plenty of Gods aren't going to remember the Why of humanity and the original design docs aren't exactly around for anyone to take a peek at. Plenty of Gods are either Terrestrial and thus very plausibly have close ties with mankind (see: Forks or all the other cities where gods shouldn't be intervening on behalf of personal stakes but Absolutely Do) or Celestials who have a finite amount of brainspace and a limited window on their own world. Fuck, plenty of Gods should be drawn from the ranks of mortals themselves and god-blooded being welcomed in by a parent is a not-uncommon Thing 'cause yaaaay nepotism.

From a purely mechanical standpoint? In terms of writing mechanics I mean: it's damn hard to have an argument about the setting organically IC if you-the-GM-writer-whatever insist that everyone's read the same manual with maybe a different bit of flavor. Clashes of religion and cultural practices are fantastic fodder for conflict and excising that is clunky as fuck, for god's sake give me the Immaculate being forced to deal with syncretism and blending religion as you move farther from their center of influence. Let there be IC arguments over rites and ritual and relative importance. Similarly if you insist that your characters are so far above Conventional Morality that they can't be held accountable or interacted with in a meaningful manner besides rolling over and doing whatever the hell they want uh...

Shit why are they even there in the first place?

This is, ofc, setting aside the point that "A god fucked over my family, I'm going to fuck his face" is a damn fine seed for a conflict/character/story in and of itself because...dunno what the argument you and others are making even is? "Assholes gonna asshole, remember kids don't stand up to the bullies because they're bigger than you".



Thaaat's...going a bit far I think. The Yozi work as the living relics of a ruined age, beautiful and awful, and while they themselves should never be able to break free, their 3CD's and below or their Deathlords (in the case of the Neverborn) do draw from them and should matter.



This is aggressively dumb and straight up that fucking...god Celestial Compass: Yu-Shan shit where "The gods would treat a beggar more kindly than a DB because at least they could get a real Exaltation".

Come off it, like are you even sounding that out in your head. "I'm going to fill my setting with 99% people who don't matter and thus their desires and drives have no stakes and make the Entire Story about a handful of dudes whose sole reason for being is getting Swoler".

Isn't that Xianxia or w/e?

I think you've managed to make Exalted xianxia.



"Yes but what if nothing matters" isn't an argument, it's basically acknowledging that you don't have anything else to put forward.



since when is the Sun the most moral being in the universe was there not a discussion ten pages ago about why that was a bad idea and didn't really work well
I'm arguing from the perspective that the handbook is ontological reality. They don't need to have read it, or experienced it in its totality, because the essence of it (for lack of a better word) permeates their reality.

Of course, that's my Watsonian argument. Doylistically? I'm very biased and more than a little insane. Honestly I can't even finish of my argument right now because it's an effort to write a single sentence that isn't documenting how much of a worthless piece of shit I am.

Hopefully I'll have a better day soon where I can actually coherently debate.
 
Ok, that's it. Let's talk about something more cheerful.

The end of the Shogunate, began, to no one's surprise, due to a Solar Exalted. This one was crafty. This one was stealthy. This one went undetected for a long, long, time. Long enough, that he was not found. Not till he struck Essence 5, and achieved solar circle sorcery. He was found by that time, though. Sidereals converged on him. The Wyld Hunt harried his every step. But this Solar was alive for a long, long, time, and had learnt well. He dodged barricades and blockades. He evaded the Agents of Heaven. He sped away from Dragonblooded marauders. Until he could not, and was cornered within a city. Within a township. It was a matter of time, till they found him. He could not get out. That was during Calibration.


That was a mistake, in hindsight, cornering so powerful a prey.


In desperation, he summoned a prince of Hell. A princess. A fetich soul. A soul so powerful and so feared, that the Solar Deliberative in the first age, had forbidden her summoning, in fear of destroying Creation. How it would happen, he did not know. But he needed it to happen. As dragonblooded sorcerers banished the blood apes and Tomescu he set as guards, and as Sidereals sent Octavian back to Malfeas, the heart of the Yozi manifested. Csend, the silence in her wake, appeared in a soundproofed chamber, before the eyes of a breathless solar exalted. In less than a second, he was dead. In the next second, so was Creation.


It was unknown what had happened. Maybe Cecelyne was thinner there. Maybe Adjoran was closer to the edge, or just a bit stronger. Maybe the stars, fate, Shinma, all aligned and gave Creation the middle finger. But the end result was the same. The winds of Adjoran appeared in Creation for a second. IN that second, everything not kept within airtight chambers, nor had environmental charms, died. Men turned to dust. Cities were reduced to rubble. Entire forests were removed from existence.


The entirety of Creation lay silent. Then a pebble dropped from a broken wall, and its clinking sound returned Csend from whence she came. Leaving the Sidereals, the surviving dragonblooded, and Heaven to try to fix what had been broken. The loom of fate screamed and crackled, as the near-entirety of Creation's population was slain in an instant. Millions of men, women, and children, their present, their future, their existence, wiped away. The loom, for the first time in millennia, suddenly shrunk in size. The Sidereal factions, for once, ceased their bickering. The gods halted, as the quintessence fountains dried up, for the first time in existence.


For a moment, there was shocked silence, just like in Creation. Then all hell broke loose.
 
Ok, that's it. Let's talk about something more cheerful.

The end of the Shogunate, began, to no one's surprise, due to a Solar Exalted. This one was crafty. This one was stealthy. This one went undetected for a long, long, time. Long enough, that he was not found. Not till he struck Essence 5, and achieved solar circle sorcery. He was found by that time, though. Sidereals converged on him. The Wyld Hunt harried his every step. But this Solar was alive for a long, long, time, and had learnt well. He dodged barricades and blockades. He evaded the Agents of Heaven. He sped away from Dragonblooded marauders. Until he could not, and was cornered within a city. Within a township. It was a matter of time, till they found him. He could not get out. That was during Calibration.


That was a mistake, in hindsight, cornering so powerful a prey.


In desperation, he summoned a prince of Hell. A princess. A fetich soul. A soul so powerful and so feared, that the Solar Deliberative in the first age, had forbidden her summoning, in fear of destroying Creation. How it would happen, he did not know. But he needed it to happen. As dragonblooded sorcerers banished the blood apes and Tomescu he set as guards, and as Sidereals sent Octavian back to Malfeas, the heart of the Yozi manifested. Csend, the silence in her wake, appeared in a soundproofed chamber, before the eyes of a breathless solar exalted. In less than a second, he was dead. In the next second, so was Creation.


It was unknown what had happened. Maybe Cecelyne was thinner there. Maybe Adjoran was closer to the edge, or just a bit stronger. Maybe the stars, fate, Shinma, all aligned and gave Creation the middle finger. But the end result was the same. The winds of Adjoran appeared in Creation for a second. IN that second, everything not kept within airtight chambers, nor had environmental charms, died. Men turned to dust. Cities were reduced to rubble. Entire forests were removed from existence.


The entirety of Creation lay silent. Then a pebble dropped from a broken wall, and its clinking sound returned Csend from whence she came. Leaving the Sidereals, the surviving dragonblooded, and Heaven to try to fix what had been broken. The loom of fate screamed and crackled, as the near-entirety of Creation's population was slain in an instant. Millions of men, women, and children, their present, their future, their existence, wiped away. The loom, for the first time in millennia, suddenly shrunk in size. The Sidereal factions, for once, ceased their bickering. The gods halted, as the quintessence fountains dried up, for the first time in existence.


For a moment, there was shocked silence, just like in Creation. Then all hell broke loose.
TL:DR Rock falls, everyone dies.
Cute for a short story, useless for a game.
 
Ok, that's it. Let's talk about something more cheerful.

The end of the Shogunate, began, to no one's surprise, due to a Solar Exalted. This one was crafty. This one was stealthy. This one went undetected for a long, long, time. Long enough, that he was not found. Not till he struck Essence 5, and achieved solar circle sorcery. He was found by that time, though. Sidereals converged on him. The Wyld Hunt harried his every step. But this Solar was alive for a long, long, time, and had learnt well. He dodged barricades and blockades. He evaded the Agents of Heaven. He sped away from Dragonblooded marauders. Until he could not, and was cornered within a city. Within a township. It was a matter of time, till they found him. He could not get out. That was during Calibration.


That was a mistake, in hindsight, cornering so powerful a prey.


In desperation, he summoned a prince of Hell. A princess. A fetich soul. A soul so powerful and so feared, that the Solar Deliberative in the first age, had forbidden her summoning, in fear of destroying Creation. How it would happen, he did not know. But he needed it to happen. As dragonblooded sorcerers banished the blood apes and Tomescu he set as guards, and as Sidereals sent Octavian back to Malfeas, the heart of the Yozi manifested. Csend, the silence in her wake, appeared in a soundproofed chamber, before the eyes of a breathless solar exalted. In less than a second, he was dead. In the next second, so was Creation.


It was unknown what had happened. Maybe Cecelyne was thinner there. Maybe Adjoran was closer to the edge, or just a bit stronger. Maybe the stars, fate, Shinma, all aligned and gave Creation the middle finger. But the end result was the same. The winds of Adjoran appeared in Creation for a second. IN that second, everything not kept within airtight chambers, nor had environmental charms, died. Men turned to dust. Cities were reduced to rubble. Entire forests were removed from existence.


The entirety of Creation lay silent. Then a pebble dropped from a broken wall, and its clinking sound returned Csend from whence she came. Leaving the Sidereals, the surviving dragonblooded, and Heaven to try to fix what had been broken. The loom of fate screamed and crackled, as the near-entirety of Creation's population was slain in an instant. Millions of men, women, and children, their present, their future, their existence, wiped away. The loom, for the first time in millennia, suddenly shrunk in size. The Sidereal factions, for once, ceased their bickering. The gods halted, as the quintessence fountains dried up, for the first time in existence.


For a moment, there was shocked silence, just like in Creation. Then all hell broke loose.
You forgot the bit where the whole of Creation becomes a shadowland, and the Neverborn proceed to eat the universe before going to have a post-food nap in the Well of Oblivion.

Aside from that: 7/10 - managed to distract me from myself long enough that I'm no longer gloom spiralling
 
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