Remove ads

General Exalted Thread

Reader mode
beowolf said:
Now maybe this is a point where I misread it, but "adds (Essence)/week to the Tolerance of heartsap and any Poison that affects him" sounds like it applies separately to each poison. If that's the case, it shouldn't be possible to fill up his resistance to his own heartsap.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

As per the text:

Article:
Poison cannot reduce the Infernal below his -1 health levels while heartsap cannot reduce him below his -2 health levels.


Thus, if you fill up his -1s with damage from normal poison, his heartsap is filling up his -2s straight away. He can't go "Lol, that was just my -0s, I don't care about the heartsap" - he's hurting properly.

(and as a side note, I've considered letting heartsap take you down to Incapacitated, because maybe capping that at -2s might stop the self-destructive stuff too soon)
 
EarthScorpion said:
As per the text:

Article:
Poison cannot reduce the Infernal below his -1 health levels while heartsap cannot reduce him below his -2 health levels.


Thus, if you fill up his -1s with damage from normal poison, his heartsap is filling up his -2s straight away. He can't go "Lol, that was just my -0s, I don't care about the heartsap" - he's hurting properly.

(and as a side note, I've considered letting heartsap take you down to Incapacitated, because maybe capping that at -2s might stop the self-destructive stuff too soon)
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
If the Infernal is addicted enough, he'd totally go right to his -4s. I've known people who had to be dragged to rehab to stop them from literally dying, and others who...honestly might be dead by now. The -2 stopoff would be good, I think, if you want them to be able to safelyish go crazy, Incap if you want to emphasize the insanity of partying to literally death's door, healing up in a week, and then starting all over. It's one of the things I kinda don't like about drugs in Exalted, the consequences aren't anything like real. I really liked the 1e book with drug rules for both mortals and Exalts that noted how Exalted resiliance meant that heroin simply couldn't kill you outright, rather than not risking harm and addiction to it.

If I was writing it, I think I'd go with the incapacitation, and let the miracle of Exalted healing and any Malfean/Isidoros/wherever they're getting regen from be how they recover. Embrace the rock 'n roll life style, party until you vomit your guts out and pass out for three days, wake up, get right back to it. Live fast, live hard, never die.
 
Kaiya said:
If the Infernal is addicted enough, he'd totally go right to his -4s. I've known people who had to be dragged to rehab to stop them from literally dying, and others who...honestly might be dead by now. The -2 stopoff would be good, I think, if you want them to be able to safelyish go crazy, Incap if you want to emphasize the insanity of partying to literally death's door, healing up in a week, and then starting all over. It's one of the things I kinda don't like about drugs in Exalted, the consequences aren't anything like real. I really liked the 1e book with drug rules for both mortals and Exalts that noted how Exalted resiliance meant that heroin simply couldn't kill you outright, rather than not risking harm and addiction to it.

If I was writing it, I think I'd go with the incapacitation, and let the miracle of Exalted healing and any Malfean/Isidoros/wherever they're getting regen from be how they recover. Embrace the rock 'n roll life style, party until you vomit your guts out and pass out for three days, wake up, get right back to it. Live fast, live hard, never die.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Mmm. Just as a note, Szoreny as I wrote him isn't "fun" drugs. For him, the heartsap mechanic (which is poisoning yourself with mercury) represents both the self-destructive effects of his envy and performance-enhancing drugs. Szoreny isn't the junkie partying - he's the East German Olympic athlete wrecking his body with steroids and blood transfusions, all to eke out extra performance to win. He's the student who's taking so many caffeine pills he's given himself heart palpitations because he has to keep working through the night. He's the supermodel injecting botox into the back of his hands to stop wrinkles showing there, and constantly getting plastic surgery in pursuit of an abstract concept of beauty. He's Bane, shooting up with Venom to try to kill the Bat. Because you've got to be the very best, like no one ever was.

Then there's mechanics for getting the heartsap out of your system by beating your rival, which means Szoreny's encouraged to set up a climatic showdown with his rival, rig the fight, and then activate all his Accumulation keyworded charms [1] to get that victory, so when he wins, the moment of victory purges his system of the poison. Of course, if you don't win, you're now suffering for weeks.

Hmm. Explaining it like this, yeah, I think it's better that heartsap should be able to take you down to Incap. You can't kill yourself with it, but you can put yourself in a coma and things'll hurt so badly you wish you were dead. And sure, you can stop taking heartsap... but then all those Accumulation-keyworded charms you bought are going to waste, so maybe you'll just use them in, uh, emergencies. Yeah, emergencies.

(@Revlid's ideas for Hegra sound more in line with the fun drugs stuff, because his concept for her is that she's the jaded decadent debutante who tosses a high value note between two homeless people and has them fight for her amusement, while being off her face with cocaine)

[1] the charms which put more heartsap in your system when you use them
 
Crossposted since it's getting beyond a quick question-and-answer again.
Kaiya said:
That just means they aren't evil for the sake of evil. Instead, they're viciously destructive and dangerous or capricious and cruel in ways that make a great deal of internal sense to them. I'm sure somewhere there are Second Circle demons who wouldn't be terrible news to unleash on Creation, but all the most famous ones, um, aren't.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I think you're overstating the case. Of the demons you list, the only ones I'd really qualify as famous is Octavian and maybe Mara. I might throw Sondok into the ring as well. Octavian is, yes, a powerful warlord. Um, and? Warlords are ten a penny in Creation these days, and they aren't necessarily cruel or capricious. I mean yeah, if you're summoning a demon lord you have to expect they'll be dangerous - power by definition implies danger, and if you didn't want to bargain with power you wouldn't be summoning a demon lord. As @Shyft points out, many Gods and Elementals are also disruptive to Creation without careful handling, similar to what a demon calls for. "... but this is not meant to be a gotcha or fun tax, but an emphasizing point on their nature and how people interact with them, especially Exalted. See Gem Lords."

Like, if you summon Octavian, he's probably going to go conquering. You knew that before you summoned him. That's probably why you summoned him. And living in a country ruled by Octavian... wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing! It might well be quite a bit better than many of the neighbouring nations. For sure you'd have little to worry about from many of the local threats to life and limb like bandits, wild animals and the Hungry Dead, and security counts for a lot in the Age of Sorrows.

This is one of the things that I like about Exalted, that the 'very good reason' these people (not alien monsters, people) are kept outside the world often has very little to do with them, and everything to do with the malice and spite of the people who rule them. Demons are not prisoners of the Exalted, they are prisoners of the Yozi, and this is a tragedy because there is not really a good solution.
 
Last edited:
Imrix said:
Crossposted since it's getting beyond a quick question-and-answer again.
I think you're overstating the case. Of the demons you list, the only ones I'd really qualify as famous is Octavian and maybe Mara. I might throw Sondok into the ring as well. Octavian is, yes, a powerful warlord. Um, and? Warlords are ten a penny in Creation these days, and they aren't necessarily cruel or capricious. I mean yeah, if you're summoning a demon lord you have to expect they'll be dangerous - power by definition implies danger, and if you didn't want to bargain with power you wouldn't be summoning a demon lord.

Like, if you summon Octavian, he's probably going to go conquering. You knew that before you summoned him. That's probably why you summoned him. And living in a country ruled by Octavian... wouldn't necessarily be a bad thing! It might well be quite a bit better than many of the neighbouring nations. For sure you'd have little to worry about from many of the local threats to life and limb like bandits, wild animals and the Hungry Dead, and security counts for a lot in the Age of Sorrows.

This is one of the things that I like about Exalted, that the 'very good reason' these people (not alien monsters, people) are kept outside the world often has very little to do with them, and everything to do with the malice and spite of the people who rule them. Demons are not prisoners of the Exalted, they are prisoners of the Yozi, and this is a tragedy because there is not really a good solution.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I would not actually characterize Octavian like this? You could certainly run him like that, but I, um, wouldn't. Because he's not gonna be running a competent police state, he's gonna be press ganging literally everyone able to hold a weapon into his army to conquer the next country, and the next, and the next, because he wants to rule and conquer all of Creation, explicitly, and I don't think 'make sure the places I conquer are secure' would really be a big motive. Any more than 'make sure the people can eat' would be. He may or may not be interested in stability when he conquers the entire world, but he's not gonna get that far because he'll run up against the Realm. He'll get pretty far, though, and ruin and end manymanymany lives, because unlike a human conquerer Octavian has demonic instinct and power backing him up, and a Solar-grade Excellency he can apply to it.

His empire is not going to be a good place. And he's totally an alien monster. A person too! But an alien monster nonetheless.

Editing in 'cause I missed this:

EarthScorpion said:
Mmm. Just as a note, Szoreny as I wrote him isn't "fun" drugs. For him, the heartsap mechanic (which is poisoning yourself with mercury) represents both the self-destructive effects of his envy and performance-enhancing drugs. Szoreny isn't the junkie partying - he's the East German Olympic athlete wrecking his body with steroids and blood transfusions, all to eke out extra performance to win. He's the student who's taking so many caffeine pills he's given himself heart palpitations because he has to keep working through the night. He's the supermodel injecting botox into the back of his hands to stop wrinkles showing there, and constantly getting plastic surgery in pursuit of an abstract concept of beauty. He's Bane, shooting up with Venom to try to kill the Bat. Because you've got to be the very best, like no one ever was.

Then there's mechanics for getting the heartsap out of your system by beating your rival, which means Szoreny's encouraged to set up a climatic showdown with his rival, rig the fight, and then activate all his Accumulation keyworded charms [1] to get that victory, so when he wins, the moment of victory purges his system of the poison. Of course, if you don't win, you're now suffering for weeks.

Hmm. Explaining it like this, yeah, I think it's better that heartsap should be able to take you down to Incap. You can't kill yourself with it, but you can put yourself in a coma and things'll hurt so badly you wish you were dead. And sure, you can stop taking heartsap... but then all those Accumulation-keyworded charms you bought are going to waste, so maybe you'll just use them in, uh, emergencies. Yeah, emergencies.

(@Revlid's ideas for Hegra sound more in line with the fun drugs stuff, because his concept for her is that she's the jaded decadent debutante who tosses a high value note between two homeless people and has them fight for her amusement, while being off her face with cocaine)

[1] the charms which put more heartsap in your system when you use them
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Aaaah, that's pretty cool, actually. Two different approaches to addiction and drug use! Both of which can totally ruin you. I approve!
 
Last edited:
Kaiya said:
His empire is not going to be a good place. And he's totally an alien monster. A person too! But an alien monster nonetheless.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

Lies. He's Bowser.

He'll be stopped as soon as the Mushroom King and the Twilight caste Crimson Pipe Fixer jump on his head a few times and drop him into magma. Then he'll be summoned to go go-karting, or maybe play tennis.

(u know im right)
 
EarthScorpion said:
He's Bane, shooting up with Venom to try to kill the Bat. Because you've got to be the very best, like no one ever was.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I just had a vision of Bane - the original Bane, the one where he's a terrifying genius & Venom is a permanent enhancement instead of magical PCP - as an Infernal Exalt of the Ebon Dragon. Didn't know how much I needed that to be a thing until now.

Of course, the obvious The Dark Knight Rises reference just slides right in there.
 
Kaiya said:
I would not actually characterize Octavian like this? You could certainly run him like that, but I, um, wouldn't. Because he's not gonna be running a competent police state, he's gonna be press ganging literally everyone able to hold a weapon into his army to conquer the next country, and the next, and the next, because he wants to rule and conquer all of Creation, explicitly, and I don't think 'make sure the places I conquer are secure' would really be a big motive. Any more than 'make sure the people can eat' would be. He may or may not be interested in stability when he conquers the entire world, but he's not gonna get that far because he'll run up against the Realm. He'll get pretty far, though, and ruin and end manymanymany lives, because unlike a human conquerer Octavian has demonic instinct and power backing him up, and a Solar-grade Excellency he can apply to it.

His empire is not going to be a good place. And he's totally an alien monster. A person too! But an alien monster nonetheless.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Why would he bother conscripting? He can make soldiers that would break the mightiest mortal alive over their knee, and he can churn them out by the gross if he so desires. Likewise, he must either be reasonably capable as a statesman or have capable viziers who do the work for him, because he's a Second Circle Demon that still manages to keep a sizable fief intact in the nightmarish shitpit that is Malfeas, and that demands effective infrastructure and other support systems for the army.

If anything, the real "alien monster" part of being conquered by Octavian is that he patently does not care about any of the mortals who happen to be on the land he just conquered. He won't burn their crops, but that's because he already has perfectly adequate supply lines and once he's sent goons to take any halfway-decent metal they have at hand for his smiths to smelt into new components for his factories and siege engines, there's no further use to them.

Humans are just a total waste of time for him compared to First Circle Demons, even as slave labor. At absolute most, "grab some nearby mortals and throw them in the stewpot" is his army's version of having to subsist on hardtack and gruel when things get bad. Most of the time he just rolls in, kills the shit out any local gods or elementals of note, flattens a number of priests, temple guards, and other such mobile scenery in the process, then has his men use determining who has to go dig through hovels in search of usable metal as a nice way to help them sort out the pecking order while he focuses on building more siege engines and factories.

He's not Sauron, he's an asshole playing an RTS and not giving a shit about the NPC peasants so he can double down on maxing that sweet 4X.
 
Kaiya said:
I would not actually characterize Octavian like this? You could certainly run him like that, but I, um, wouldn't. Because he's not gonna be running a competent police state, he's gonna be press ganging literally everyone able to hold a weapon into his army to conquer the next country, and the next, and the next, because he wants to rule and conquer all of Creation, explicitly, and I don't think 'make sure the places I conquer are secure' would really be a big motive. Any more than 'make sure the people can eat' would be. He may or may not be interested in stability when he conquers the entire world, but he's not gonna get that far because he'll run up against the Realm. He'll get pretty far, though, and ruin and end manymanymany lives, because unlike a human conquerer Octavian has demonic instinct and power backing him up, and a Solar-grade Excellency he can apply to it.

His empire is not going to be a good place. And he's totally an alien monster. A person too! But an alien monster nonetheless.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Pardon? I don't see why it wouldn't. Octavian's biggest advantage is not his personal power; it's his age, how he can expect to slowly grow his empire over the course of centuries. Like, 3e describes him as lacking the temperament for governance, yeah, but he's clearly good at it because he's held a quarter-layer of Hell together for centuries, and that's far too large to be maintained purely by the strength of his stave. He's faced peers and superiors and natural cataclysms before, and yet he's still here, still ruling possibly the largest empire ever described in the game line. Like, before 3e added some stuff about how Octavian wants to rule Creation, the main obstacle I'd have said he poses to anybody who summons him is his irritation at being distracted from overseeing and expanding his empire in Hell.

And really, 'alien monster'? The dude's a warlord who made it big. He is intensely comprehensible to the human mind. I can probably find of a couple of mortals who are quite a bit weirder, if I go skimming the books.
 
GardenerBriareus said:
Why would he bother conscripting? He can make soldiers that would break the mightiest mortal alive over their knee, and he can churn them out by the gross if he so desires. Likewise, he must either be reasonably capable as a statesman or have capable viziers who do the work for him, because he's a Second Circle Demon that still manages to keep a sizable fief intact in the nightmarish shitpit that is Malfeas, and that demands effective infrastructure and other support systems for the army.

If anything, the real "alien monster" part of being conquered by Octavian is that he patently does not care about any of the mortals who happen to be on the land he just conquered. He won't burn their crops, but that's because he already has perfectly adequate supply lines and once he's sent goons to take any halfway-decent metal they have at hand for his smiths to smelt into new components for his factories and siege engines, there's no further use to them.

Humans are just a total waste of time for him compared to First Circle Demons, even as slave labor. At absolute most, "grab some nearby mortals and throw them in the stewpot" is his army's version of having to subsist on hardtack and gruel when things get bad. Most of the time he just rolls in, kills the shit out any local gods or elementals of note, flattens a number of priests, temple guards, and other such mobile scenery in the process, then has his men use determining who has to go dig through hovels in search of usable metal as a nice way to help them sort out the pecking order while he focuses on building more siege engines and factories.

He's not Sauron, he's an asshole playing an RTS and not giving a shit about the NPC peasants so he can double down on maxing that sweet 4X.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Yeah.

A thing to remember, is that 2nd circle demons aren't tools.

They're people. And 2nd circle demons got lots of dice to sling around, and excellencies to boot.

Octavian the warlord may in fact be a better singer and dancer and bureaucrat than 90% of the people in creation
 
GardenerBriareus said:
Why would he bother conscripting? He can make soldiers that would break the mightiest mortal alive over their knee, and he can churn them out by the gross if he so desires. Likewise, he must either be reasonably capable as a statesman or have capable viziers who do the work for him, because he's a Second Circle Demon that still manages to keep a sizable fief intact in the nightmarish shitpit that is Malfeas, and that demands effective infrastructure and other support systems for the army.

If anything, the real "alien monster" part of being conquered by Octavian is that he patently does not care about any of the mortals who happen to be on the land he just conquered. He won't burn their crops, but that's because he already has perfectly adequate supply lines and once he's sent goons to take any halfway-decent metal they have at hand for his smiths to smelt into new components for his factories and siege engines, there's no further use to them.

Humans are just a total waste of time for him compared to First Circle Demons, even as slave labor. At absolute most, "grab some nearby mortals and throw them in the stewpot" is his army's version of having to subsist on hardtack and gruel when things get bad. Most of the time he just rolls in, kills the shit out any local gods or elementals of note, flattens a number of priests, temple guards, and other such mobile scenery in the process, then has his men use determining who has to go dig through hovels in search of usable metal as a nice way to help them sort out the pecking order while he focuses on building more siege engines and factories.

He's not Sauron, he's an asshole playing an RTS and not giving a shit about the NPC peasants so he can double down on maxing that sweet 4X.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
We have no idea how he actually makes 1st Circle demons or what it requires. I don't think it's nearly as simple as you're making it out to be. Particularly outside Malfeas and within Creation proper where he has nothing like the resources he's used to. I'm also not comparing him to Sauron so much as Ghengis Khan.

Imrix said:
Pardon? I don't see why it wouldn't. Octavian's biggest advantage is not his personal power; it's his age, how he can expect to slowly grow his empire over the course of centuries. Like, 3e describes him as lacking the temperament for governance, yeah, but he's clearly good at it because he's held a quarter-layer of Hell together for centuries, and that's far too large to be maintained purely by the strength of his stave. He's faced peers and superiors and natural cataclysms before, and yet he's still here, still ruling possibly the largest empire ever described in the game line. Like, before 3e added some stuff about how Octavian wants to rule Creation, the main obstacle I'd have said he poses to anybody who summons him is his irritation at being distracted from overseeing and expanding his empire in Hell.

And really, 'alien monster'? The dude's a warlord who made it big. He is intensely comprehensible to the human mind. I can probably find of a couple of mortals who are quite a bit weirder, if I go skimming the books.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
He's not an alien monster in the sense of Cthulu. He's an alien monster in the sense that he's both an alien and a monster. He's not weird, but he's grand, and in a way that makes it rather difficult for him to care about mortals, which, combined with his violent tendencies, makes him extremely dangerous. On the rest, yes, that's why I think he's very, very dangerous and likely to destroy a good many nations before being stopped.
 
Kaiya said:
He's not an alien monster in the sense of Cthulu. He's an alien monster in the sense that he's both an alien and a monster. He's not weird, but he's grand, and in a way that makes it rather difficult for him to care about mortals, which, combined with his violent tendencies, makes him extremely dangerous. On the rest, yes, that's why I think he's very, very dangerous and likely to destroy a good many nations before being stopped.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm not misunderstanding you, dude, I'm disagreeing with you. I'm saying he's not alien, and he's not a monster. Again: He is a warlord who made it big. Warlords are ten a penny in Creation right now, and most of them don't care about the rank-and-file of their people either. Does that make them monsters? Because I think that's spreading the label rather too broadly to be useful.

So yeah, if he's set loose in Creation he's probably going to destroy several nations.

Good! Most of them suck! They struggle to protect their people from local threats like banditry, the Hungry Dead and bullying gods, and abuse those same citizens into the bargain, all while embroiling themselves in inconclusive feuds with their neighbours that do nothing but trade the same loot back and forth at a great surcharge of blood and tears.

There is a reasonable argument to be made that quite a few areas in Creation would be greatly improved by the sudden arrival of a conquering demonic warlord. And when I say improved, I don't mean some purely utilitarian view that ignores the human element, I mean standards of living and general happiness would probably go up, because now the king and his armies have the power to crush the things that go bump in the night and eat your neighbours, as well as the long-term perspective to think about things like "if this is going to be a worthwhile resource node and forward base, I'm going to need to spend a few decades building institutions. Grmf, who can I delegate this to who's competent and honest enough that I won't have to keep an eye on them..."
 
Last edited:
Imrix said:
I'm not misunderstanding you, dude, I'm disagreeing with you. I'm saying he's not alien, and he's not a monster. Again: He is a warlord who made it big. Warlords are ten a penny in Creation right now, and most of them don't care about the rank-and-file of their people either. Does that make them monsters? Because I think that's spreading the label rather too broadly to be useful.

So yeah, if he's set loose in Creation he's probably going to destroy several nations.

Good! Most of them suck! They struggle to protect their people on top of local threats like banditry, the Hungry Dead and bullying gods, and abuse those same citizens into the bargain, all while embroiling themselves in inconclusive feuds with their neighbours that do nothing but trade the same loot back and forth at a great surcharge of blood and tears.

There is a reasonable argument to be made that quite a few areas in Creation would be greatly improved by the sudden arrival of a conquering demonic warlord. And when I say improved, I don't mean some purely utilitarian view that ignores the human element, I mean standards of living and general happiness would probably go up, because now the king and his armies have the power to crush the things that go bump in the night and eat your neighbours, as well as the long-term perspective to think about things like "if this is going to be a worthwhile resource node and forward base, I'm going to need to spend a few decades building institutions. Grmf, who can I delegate this to who's competent and honest enough that I won't have to keep an eye on them..."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Why do you want demons to be humans that look weird? Why is Octavian being a inhuman alien so bad?
 
Gamerlord said:
Why do you want demons to be humans that look weird? Why is Octavian being a inhuman alien so bad?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Pardon? I'm discussing Is, not Ought here, dude. I am all in favour of demons having strange inhuman perspectives. It's just that Octavian... doesn't. He's very pedestrian, by demon standards.

(If I were to try and improve on Octavian by giving him more of a genuinely inhuman perspective, I'd probably ditch the 3e stuff about how he wants to conquer Creation, double down on his empire in Hell, make him irritated to be taken away from that, and then start thinking about what sort of personality would thrive on the prison society of Malfeas.)
 
Last edited:
Imrix said:
I'm not misunderstanding you, dude, I'm disagreeing with you. I'm saying he's not alien, and he's not a monster. Again: He is a warlord who made it big. Warlords are ten a penny in Creation right now, and most of them don't care about the rank-and-file of their people either. Does that make them monsters? Because I think that's spreading the label rather too broadly to be useful.

So yeah, if he's set loose in Creation he's probably going to destroy several nations.

Good! Most of them suck! They struggle to protect their people on top of local threats like banditry, the Hungry Dead and bullying gods, and abuse those same citizens into the bargain, all while embroiling themselves in inconclusive feuds with their neighbours that do nothing but trade the same loot back and forth at a great surcharge of blood and tears.

There is a reasonable argument to be made that quite a few areas in Creation would be greatly improved by the sudden arrival of a conquering demonic warlord. And when I say improved, I don't mean some purely utilitarian view that ignores the human element, I mean standards of living and general happiness would probably go up, because now the king and his armies have the power to crush the things that go bump in the night and eat your neighbours, as well as the long-term perspective to think about things like "if this is going to be a worthwhile resource node and forward base, I'm going to need to spend a few decades building institutions. Grmf, who can I delegate this to who's competent and honest enough that I won't have to keep an eye on them..."
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I didn't think you were misunderstanding me...? I'm arguing against your position by explaining my own.

Sydonai said:
Every Second Circle is capable of producing First Circle Demons, and even designing entirely new ones.

It's hilarious that you can say this about loads of demons, especially the singing&dancing bit.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm capable of writing novels, that doesn't mean I can churn them out endlessly or easily.
 
Sydonai said:
Every Second Circle is capable of producing First Circle Demons, and even designing entirely new ones.

It's hilarious that you can say this about loads of demons, especially the singing&dancing bit.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Of course. They're descendants of the yozis. They compete in dance-offs.

But it's one of the least warlordish things that Octavian can do. What other things can there be? Knitting? The tea ceremony? Impassioned speeches on peace and cooperation?
Kaiya said:
We have no idea how he actually makes 1st Circle demons or what it requires. I don't think it's nearly as simple as you're making it out to be. Particularly outside Malfeas and within Creation proper where he has nothing like the resources he's used to. I'm also not comparing him to Sauron so much as Ghengis Khan.


He's not an alien monster in the sense of Cthulu. He's an alien monster in the sense that he's both an alien and a monster. He's not weird, but he's grand, and in a way that makes it rather difficult for him to care about mortals, which, combined with his violent tendencies, makes him extremely dangerous. On the rest, yes, that's why I think he's very, very dangerous and likely to destroy a good many nations before being stopped.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I'm sorry, but I was under the impression that making first circle demons, for 2nd circles is literally the equivalent of 'wave your hand, spend essence, demons pop out'.

I mean, yeah, you got limits via essence. But you're still creating armies of magical beings that can become immaterial and are far greater than any mortal warrior. And you got a war excellency.
 
Unbound Second Circles in Creation can likely create First Circles at a rate that entirely coincidentally is exactly the same as the rate that a sorcerer could summon them. Funny, that.

This means that he isn't getting vast armies unless he spends years or decades building them.
 
Aleph said:
Unbound Second Circles in Creation can likely create First Circles at a rate that entirely coincidentally is exactly the same as the rate that a sorcerer could summon them. Funny, that.

This means that he isn't getting vast armies unless he spends years or decades building them.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Welp, should it ever come up in my games, I now have a new headcanon, thank you!
 
You know, if Octavian both creates armies of demons AND press gangs all the mortals in his domain into his armies, he has double the armies.
 
Unbanshee said:
You know, if Octavian both creates armies of demons AND press gangs all the mortals in his domain into his armies, he has double the armies.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Basically if Octavian isn't lighting the direction he's summoned unbound into on fire in the pursuit of endless glorious conquest, why did the greatest conqueror of Hell's nobility even get summoned?
 
Kaiya said:
Basically if Octavian isn't lighting the direction he's summoned unbound into on fire in the pursuit of endless glorious conquest, why did the greatest conqueror of Hell's nobility even get summoned?
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
I actually ended up discussing this with @Maugan Ra, @Omicron and @Gargulec, and came around mostly to their way of thinking. I still contest that Octavian does care about his populace, if only as an aspect of Building My Empire, and that his conquest is less of a rampage and more of a slow, grinding expansion that plays out implacably as the decades roll on, since Hell is not an environment that's friendly to an endless victory march, especially when you're a Second Circle Demon who is almost inevitably going to run into a Third Circle who objects to your expansion. But a breakdown of the second-order consequences of widespread use of Teodozjia, the likelihood of humans being viewed as a least-useful underclass, and the social backlash of rule by demons, has convinced me that the likely result of this is an empire of basalt citadels, within which dwell the huddled and depleted crowd of humanity, guarded from everything but the callous ignorance of their demonic overlords. So, yeah, probably not a step up from the current disorder of things.

Pity, for a while there I was tempted by the idea of starting an Octavian Quest.
 
Last edited:
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top