It also makes you evil to not do so. If you can free souls from Hell, and go 'meh, too hard, plus I like my daiklave', you can't really call yourself heroic.
General Exalted Thread
- Location
- Gladstone, OR
@Aleph and @TenfoldShields - this 'asshole tax' and lack of engagement is what I mean by 'lack of wiggle room' or play in the presentation of the mechanic.
Now, strictly speaking I agree that it should be a quandary- those kinds of things make for interesting characterization points, but the game has to sell the player on the idea that those kinds of quandary are worth engaging. If you approach Exalted primarily as a game, where morality and ethics are an optimization problem, you run into the issue that yes, Soulsteel is Best but Worst.
Now, once soulsteel is made, there's no real way to get the souls out. They're in there, forever, screaming. You didn't put them in there, you just stole the ingots from some ghost-smelter. Is that moral or ethical? That's an exercise best left to the player.
Speaking for myself, I have a similar problem with the 'asshole tax' and demonology, where numerous demons are written with an eye towards being classical 'corrupt the mortals evil incarnate beings' or fundamentally broken and disruptive. See Anhules, which canonically are made from a child's skull- when they're born, they speak with that child's voice and want to meet their parents and hug them (kill them).
This is... just faceplam worthy. Demons should in broader strokes be weird and reflect their weirdness on the sorcerer-players. Yes there should be vile, grotesque and darkly themed demons, but that should not be the 'balancing point' on which you govern utility at a design level. More specifically, some demons can be morally and ethically vile to summon or employ, just like some magical materials can be morally vile to create or use.
The reconciliation is the two extremes- why should Soulsteel be 'more evil' than 'demonology/specific demon'? It probably shouldn't, but the fundamental quandary should endure noentheless.
Now, strictly speaking I agree that it should be a quandary- those kinds of things make for interesting characterization points, but the game has to sell the player on the idea that those kinds of quandary are worth engaging. If you approach Exalted primarily as a game, where morality and ethics are an optimization problem, you run into the issue that yes, Soulsteel is Best but Worst.
Now, once soulsteel is made, there's no real way to get the souls out. They're in there, forever, screaming. You didn't put them in there, you just stole the ingots from some ghost-smelter. Is that moral or ethical? That's an exercise best left to the player.
Speaking for myself, I have a similar problem with the 'asshole tax' and demonology, where numerous demons are written with an eye towards being classical 'corrupt the mortals evil incarnate beings' or fundamentally broken and disruptive. See Anhules, which canonically are made from a child's skull- when they're born, they speak with that child's voice and want to meet their parents and hug them (kill them).
This is... just faceplam worthy. Demons should in broader strokes be weird and reflect their weirdness on the sorcerer-players. Yes there should be vile, grotesque and darkly themed demons, but that should not be the 'balancing point' on which you govern utility at a design level. More specifically, some demons can be morally and ethically vile to summon or employ, just like some magical materials can be morally vile to create or use.
The reconciliation is the two extremes- why should Soulsteel be 'more evil' than 'demonology/specific demon'? It probably shouldn't, but the fundamental quandary should endure noentheless.
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
Not really, no. Morality is more complicated than a categorical imperative to be alleviating the optimal amount of suffering 24/7.
TenfoldShields
Lounging on a Hoard of Words
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Tbh I'd say that, as a really rough off the cuff thing, that if something is really ubiquitous in how its presented (basically everyone needs Jade fr'ex, and Soulsteel functions as a rough equivalent in the underworld given that it's a core component of a lot of necrotech iirc) it's probably better to make its immediate costs something at least a bit removed/dispersed. Maybe it's extracted from the Rivers of Death or pockets of underground Essence in this oil-drilling analogue. Maybe it's made from the background shades of the Underworld that aren't sapient and never were and the trade off comes in Labyrinth incursions or slaughterhouse conditions. Maybe it's just something that clots around the sites of atrocities or whatever.
And then the more morally questionable stuff comes out when you're seeking that edge, that powerful ability or that forbidden technique. When it's a question of "what will you do to win~" versus the cost of just playing the game at all.
I know, I know, and I'll cop to being a bit hyperbolic there. But like...this is literally eternal suffering. On innocent people. That you know of, and know you could stop, without ending up in the same state. Shrugging and continuing to use the Daiklave while knowing you can fix the problem...it might not be literally evil, but it's a black mark on the character if you don't want to play them as deeply callous.
Quantumboost
Now with 50% more dots in Dimensional Science
- Location
- Ensemble Space
The clear solution to this conundrum is Ebon Dragon Charms.
Use an upgrade to Corrosive Pattern Infliction to dissolve the soulsteel, apply Glories That Never Were as... 'therapy'... for the still-screaming fragments, then transform them into demons!
Then dissolve the demons into chalcanth and make a new artifact out of them.
Absolutely nothing wrong with this plan.
Use an upgrade to Corrosive Pattern Infliction to dissolve the soulsteel, apply Glories That Never Were as... 'therapy'... for the still-screaming fragments, then transform them into demons!
Then dissolve the demons into chalcanth and make a new artifact out of them.
Absolutely nothing wrong with this plan.
Azrael
Sakura Saber
- Location
- Throne of Heroes
You don't need to be 'deeply' callous, you just need to have a belief system that doesn't include 'ghosts are people'. For example, you could rightly see them as an abomination against nature that cannot be suffered to exist, though in that specific case you probably aren't going to use Soulsteel either.
My point is simply that you aren't automatically evil or apathetic or whatever if you make an exception for the insane remnants of what were arguably once people in your ethics system.
- Location
- Singapore
Waitasec.
Isn't compassion.... kinda irrational?
Would ghosts suffering force you to roll?
Isn't compassion.... kinda irrational?
Would ghosts suffering force you to roll?
Noctum
Dual Paradox
- Location
- Under the Skies Above
Weighing in on the Soulsteel issue, in my own houserules, I prefer to replace it's role as 'the Underworld MM' with Stygian Iron, a dark cold metal mined from demense sites in the Underworld. Smaller deposits can be located in places associated with large concentrations of necrotic Essence in Creation (major battlefields, mass graves, communities wiped out by plague, etc), or larger deposits can be found in the Labyrinth. This gives Abyssals a morally neutral material to work with, abet one that will get you anything from odd looks to murder attempts depending on where you are.
Soulsteel on the other hand, is made from harvested chunks of the Neverborn, with broken souls forged into it, and requires Whispers to create. This shifts it's narrative role from 'the Underworld MM' to 'seriously bad juju, no really, this stuff is majorly bad news, do not use if you have any sense of morality'. It's intended to be something that only servants of Oblivion or the absolute batshit crazy would even consider using.
Soulsteel on the other hand, is made from harvested chunks of the Neverborn, with broken souls forged into it, and requires Whispers to create. This shifts it's narrative role from 'the Underworld MM' to 'seriously bad juju, no really, this stuff is majorly bad news, do not use if you have any sense of morality'. It's intended to be something that only servants of Oblivion or the absolute batshit crazy would even consider using.
Azrael
Sakura Saber
- Location
- Throne of Heroes
The Virtues were always intended to force you to do suboptimal and crazy things, so that's working as intended.
Yes, but then you wouldn't be playing someone moral, you'd be playing an asshole, and if you tried to seriously argue for that kind of moral relativism OOC you would be getting weird looks and be on the path to becoming "This guy I played with once" for future games.
- Location
- Ottawa
I think this conversation suffers from the weird Exalted fandom habit of treating everything possible as easy.
You can address pretty much every objection on both sides of this by saying that it's possible, but very very difficult, to make ethical soulsteel (or something equally effective and death-y) or to free the souls trapped in a soulsteel object.
You can address pretty much every objection on both sides of this by saying that it's possible, but very very difficult, to make ethical soulsteel (or something equally effective and death-y) or to free the souls trapped in a soulsteel object.
Azrael
Sakura Saber
- Location
- Throne of Heroes
You wouldn't be playing a saint, sure, but 'doesn't consider the dead people' is an entirely reasonable stance. They are, by definition in-setting, terrible abominations that should never have existed.
There is a scale between 'perfectly righteous and moral individual on a quest to free the souls of all those turned into Soulsteel' and 'killed thousands of people, took their ghosts and personally tortured them into Soulsteel'. Not being one does not automatically make you the other. There is totally a spot there for 'not-an-asshole who happens to be okay with using this Soulsteel daiklave he found'.
Ghosts are not, in setting, terrible abominations. Some religions take this position. It's not what they actually are. They can be, but it's hardly universal.
- Location
- England
Would a method of adjusting the degree of suffering in the soulsteel help?
A method that affects the bonus that the MM gives you so that as you alleviate the suffering of the ghost trapped within gets reduces.
If cranking the suffering down is a long and involved process, but cranking the suffering back up is something you can do by just channelling necrotic essence through it, It becomes a balance point for the player were the have to determine how much suffering they are willing to impose on their equipment to prevent the suffering of their allies.
Is it better to let this monster I'm facing have there way with their friends, or do they just crank up the pain for the boost. Sure it will take at least a month to reduce the torment back to an acceptable level, but its now or never. There would always be the temptation to grasp more power quickly as long as the character had any soulsteel equipment on them.
Moreover, it could be seen as a form of punishment/atonement in some cultures to become a soulsteel artefact for a certain period.
A method that affects the bonus that the MM gives you so that as you alleviate the suffering of the ghost trapped within gets reduces.
- At the min pain point. The ghosts are no longer in pain, as such immediately pass onto the lethe leaving you with a daiklaive with the strength and sharpness of styrofoam. The MM gives you a penalty.
- At the max pain point. The ghosts are in eternal torment such that only the neverborn are in a worse state. You get the max bonus point for the MM.
If cranking the suffering down is a long and involved process, but cranking the suffering back up is something you can do by just channelling necrotic essence through it, It becomes a balance point for the player were the have to determine how much suffering they are willing to impose on their equipment to prevent the suffering of their allies.
Is it better to let this monster I'm facing have there way with their friends, or do they just crank up the pain for the boost. Sure it will take at least a month to reduce the torment back to an acceptable level, but its now or never. There would always be the temptation to grasp more power quickly as long as the character had any soulsteel equipment on them.
Moreover, it could be seen as a form of punishment/atonement in some cultures to become a soulsteel artefact for a certain period.
Why not just...have soulsteel be an irrevocable crime, and the ethical question is "Am I personally comfortable profiting from someone's ancient crime against humanity"?
There's also that one place in the North in 2e that just has a Soulsteel mine, in Creation. Like people in-setting are scratching their heads about how that's possible, but its there.
Its just...Soulsteel, that nobody tortured any ghosts in order to create, sitting there preplexingly.
Which seems like a pretty neat plot hook imo, since your character could investigate it to try and figure out how it came to be, and whether it a singular miraculous existence, something replicable, or too good to be true in the end.
Its just...Soulsteel, that nobody tortured any ghosts in order to create, sitting there preplexingly.
Which seems like a pretty neat plot hook imo, since your character could investigate it to try and figure out how it came to be, and whether it a singular miraculous existence, something replicable, or too good to be true in the end.
I was actually really angry when it turned out soulsteel was still tortured ghosts in Ex3, rather than just congealed souls in the Labryinth, haunted by what they used to be, which was an idea floated by the old devs that I loved.
Yeah, that would have been much cooler and less pointlessly edgy.
Last edited:
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
I mean... A lot of ghosts are pretty terrible monsters, and the existence of the underworld and everything in it is an abomination against the proper order of the world. So yeah, in a sense they are terrible abominations. Maybe not in a sense everybody cares about, but it's not, strictly speaking, incorrect.
'Cause it's dull and overly binary. Basically what this cactus-fucker said over here.
Last edited:
I don't think Abyssals are well-served by having their basic magical material that lets them function like any other Exalt be a monstrous crime that they can potentially solve, casting a shadow over the dude who just wanted a cool sword that works while while he plays Prince of the Dead. I didn't like "Abyssals are inherently monstrous/have to choose between moral and effective" in 2e and I don't like the Soulsteel question still existing in 3e. Fair enough if you do, but it just...doesn't resonate with me, I guess.
Also, that link goes to an unrelated post.
Imrix
Periodically Malevolent QM
Whoops, fixed.
- Location
- Ottawa
If you ask me, being congealed in the Labyrinth sounds a lot more torturous than being melted down into metal.
Cactus-fucker?
Okay, so...I think we agree then. Soulsteel being actual for real souls in pain is super dumb, and shouldn't be literally living tortured souls, because it's basically a 'fuck you Abyssals' tax.
I was picturing Dark Souls Hollows, in that example. Empty souls who can't suffer, can't think, but mindlessly haunt the swords they are composing. They seem to moan is pain, but that's because it's spooky ghost metal, not because they're actually suffering.
I just want to point ouy that no, actually, that is an actual, reasonable morality system. Min-negative-utils is entirely coherent.