And when you follow that with "making the Divine Bureaucracy corrupt as hell in the style of a Western bureaucracy is not actually very clever" that reads like an objective assertion.
I can edit it to include "I think" into random places in the sentence to appease you, but I frankly don't think (haha) this is a particularly big deal my man.
Can i see that argument? or is it restricted to the shadow cabal?
No, it's ridiculously long and took a few hours, and I want to respect the privacy of those who took part.
 
And when you follow that with "making the Divine Bureaucracy corrupt as hell in the style of a Western bureaucracy is not actually very clever" that reads like an objective assertion.
For my money, it's the most obvious way for a Western tabletop game author to implement corrupt bureaucracy in their game, which leaves me feeling "is not actually very clever" is a fair statement that's perfectly reasonable to assert as a quasi-objective claim.

Clever would be "study how bureaucratic corruption varies across cultures and times, see how cultural context affects the development of corruption in the machinery of state, and implement bureaucratic corruption in Exalted Heaven that reflects the documented cultural characteristics of Exalted Heaven".
 
Considering that you think they probably work for the person that is pretty much in charge of Bureaucratic Corruption...
Yeah, I'm gonna say "dude is a dick" is likely more accurate than you would like to admit.

Pointing at one person and saying "This, this is why everything is corrupt" is boring and also doesn't really make much sense to me. I don't care about clever and could normally take or leave sense but boring is right out.

It seems a lot more sensible if after the Incarna effectively passed rule on to the Solars, they became a collective keystone for Heaven and the highest authority around by dint of legitimacy, power and suitability i.e. as normal for Solar states.

Naturally, when the Usurpation happened, there was an enormous power vacuum. Sidereals were neither as powerful nor as suited to rule as the Solars, had negative legitimacy and a third of the manpower. They had to use something of the existing power structures, obviously i.e. the Bureaus and their gods. And surprisingly enough, when an apocalypse (which the Usurpation pretty much was) happens and society breaks down, rule of law tends to go out the window.

At that point, it's unsurprising that corruption and competition would be endemic. This was only compounded after the two other apocalypses that followed, becoming a matter of simple survival.

Considering how there aren't any private citizens in Yu Shan as we know the term, everybody has to actively participate in both sides of corruption every day. It's a social norm, to a greater extent than anything we've got on Earth.

To be honest, at that point I kinda think there should be some kind of informal organisation to the corruption. Certainly not a bureau or anything but an "understanding."

For inspiration, I'd try to fuse together China's guanxi and Russia's legal nihilism as a base with significant variance based on other traditions(?) of corruption to flavour distinct subcultures.
 
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I have a suspicion that a lot of people in this thread don't have a firm idea of what Western-style bureaucratic corruption is, or have a wrong one. For starters, it would be an error to reduce it to a single thing; there are a lot of completely different ways for Western bureaucracies to be corrupt and only a few of them involve bribes.

For example, a lot of what looks (and, well, is) corrupt in Western bureaucracies really just is the decision-makers answering to different stakeholders than they're nominally supposed to. This can happen without any money changing hands.
 
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In general, I think the term "corruption" is a very vague and nebulous one, which I feel is poorly understood. That's understandable; bureaucracies are opaque and hard to understand without significant experience with them.
 
So what is the difference between Western-style Corruption and eastern-style(?) corruption then?
From what research I have made to related subjects in passing, the biggest thing is the heavy focus on personal relationships and rampant cronyism/nepotism. In the West, corruption is a very contract-driven and businesslike atmosphere of detached profiteering, where institutions are more like huge machines and money simply filters in regularly to the right people to produce the needed result. Who gets the money doesn't matter so long as things get done and the chain remains unbroken, so if someone Isn't making the right overtures they can be replaced with someone more pliable who can.

This is by no means an all-encompassing definition, since we're talking an entire hemisphere of the planet, but generally things outside the West put a lot more emphasis on Personal Trust, respect for office and dealing with people they know, even if this is not necessarily the Best person for the job. So you see more agreements explicitly built atop friendships and family than you do universal goals everyone is working towards as relative strangers or newcomers with impressive portfolios. People are generally not considered disposable or interchangeable, especially in terms of long-term seniority, because the structure of the whole operation as been cultivated over years of loyalty politics and insular planning, which also makes it extremely hard to break into purely on the basis of being that good at delivering results. Competence is an expected attribute, so its really more of a foot in the door when a friend of a friend to vouch on your behalf is usually the most valuable thing, which means the "everyone knows somebody" factor is extremely high when trying to accomplish anything on a wider scale. Giving gifts is common enough as a social custom its not really seen as a bribe unless it goes far beyond the norm or to the wrong sorts of people, and really-expensive gifts are usually returned in-kind anyway, so that alone is not enough to establish the kind of pull to get the favor you want, even in the places where it is acceptable practice.

A good Heaven-relevant example here would be Venus appointing her once-mortal ex-boyfriend Yaogin to head of the Cerulean Lute, even though he lacked any kind of qualifications for the post, largely as an excuse to keep him out of the way unless he was needed. A less Western bureaucracy would see a lot more of this at all levels, where you have gods privately rearranging their projects as to specifically install close friends or godblooded children they have been grooming for years into senior positions, leveraged on the fact once push comes to shove they Know they will reliably get what they desire out of the situation. Things would be substantially less explicitly mercenary, and more akin to each Division existing as its own "family" in the organized crime sense, interconnected to eachother across webs of interpersonal alliances which have been in place for decades, if not centuries.
 
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From what research I have made to related subjects in passing, the biggest thing is the heavy focus on personal relationships and rampant cronyism/nepotism. In the West, corruption is a very contract-driven and businesslike atmosphere of detached profiteering, where institutions are more like huge machines and money simply filters in regularly to the right people to produce the needed result. Who gets the money doesn't matter so long as things get done and the chain remains unbroken, so if someone Isn't making the right overtures they can be replaced with someone more pliable who can.

This is by no means an all-encompassing definition, since we're talking an entire hemisphere of the planet, but generally things outside the West put a lot more emphasis on Personal Trust, respect for office and dealing with people they know, even if this is not necessarily the Best person for the job. So you see more agreements explicitly built atop friendships and family than you do universal goals everyone is working towards as relative strangers or newcomers with impressive portfolios. People are generally not considered disposable or interchangeable, especially in terms of long-term seniority, because the structure of the whole operation as been cultivated over years of loyalty politics and insular planning, which also makes it extremely hard to break into purely on the basis of being that good at delivering results. Competence is an expected attribute, so its really more of a foot in the door when a friend of a friend to vouch on your behalf is usually the most valuable thing, which means the "everyone knows somebody" factor is extremely high when trying to accomplish anything on a wider scale. Giving gifts is common enough as a social custom its not really seen as a bribe unless it goes far beyond the norm or to the wrong sorts of people, and really-expensive gifts are usually returned in-kind anyway, so that alone is not enough to establish the kind of pull to get the favor you want, even in the places where it is acceptable practice.

A good Heaven-relevant example here would be Venus appointing her once-mortal ex-boyfriend Yaogin to head of the Cerulean Lute, even though he lacked any kind of qualifications for the post, largely as an excuse to keep him out of the way unless he was needed. A less Western bureaucracy would see a lot more of this at all levels, where you have gods privately rearranging their projects as to specifically install close friends or godblooded children they have been grooming for years into senior positions, leveraged on the fact once push comes to shove they Know they will reliably get what they desire out of the situation. Things would be substantially less explicitly mercenary, and more akin to each Division existing as its own "family" in the organized crime sense, interconnected to eachother across webs of interpersonal alliances which have been in place for decades, if not centuries.
You always make the best infodumps, Dif.
 
From what research I have made to related subjects in passing, the biggest thing is the heavy focus on personal relationships and rampant cronyism/nepotism. In the West, corruption is a very contract-driven and businesslike atmosphere of detached profiteering, where institutions are more like huge machines and money simply filters in regularly to the right people to produce the needed result. Who gets the money doesn't matter so long as things get done and the chain remains unbroken, so if someone Isn't making the right overtures they can be replaced with someone more pliable who can.

This is by no means an all-encompassing definition, since we're talking an entire hemisphere of the planet, but generally things outside the West put a lot more emphasis on Personal Trust, respect for office and dealing with people they know, even if this is not necessarily the Best person for the job. So you see more agreements explicitly built atop friendships and family than you do universal goals everyone is working towards as relative strangers or newcomers with impressive portfolios. People are generally not considered disposable or interchangeable, especially in terms of long-term seniority, because the structure of the whole operation as been cultivated over years of loyalty politics and insular planning, which also makes it extremely hard to break into purely on the basis of being that good at delivering results. Competence is an expected attribute, so its really more of a foot in the door when a friend of a friend to vouch on your behalf is usually the most valuable thing, which means the "everyone knows somebody" factor is extremely high when trying to accomplish anything on a wider scale. Giving gifts is common enough as a social custom its not really seen as a bribe unless it goes far beyond the norm or to the wrong sorts of people, and really-expensive gifts are usually returned in-kind anyway, so that alone is not enough to establish the kind of pull to get the favor you want, even in the places where it is acceptable practice.

A good Heaven-relevant example here would be Venus appointing her once-mortal ex-boyfriend Yaogin to head of the Cerulean Lute, even though he lacked any kind of qualifications for the post, largely as an excuse to keep him out of the way unless he was needed. A less Western bureaucracy would see a lot more of this at all levels, where you have gods privately rearranging their projects as to specifically install close friends or godblooded children they have been grooming for years into senior positions, leveraged on the fact once push comes to shove they Know they will reliably get what they desire out of the situation. Things would be substantially less explicitly mercenary, and more akin to each Division existing as its own "family" in the organized crime sense, interconnected to eachother across webs of interpersonal alliances which have been in place for decades, if not centuries.

It's worth noting that "Western-Style Corruption" of the type you're talking about is in many ways new? Or at least, you had corruption a lot more like the "Eastern Style" in the past. I mean, nobles, among other things, often ran on that sort of corruption.
 
Honestly, of all the things to make Heaven more precarious and fallible as a cosmic institution, a greater influx of inexperienced godblooded as personal agents filling in for/outright replacing the roles normally assumed by other gods would be enough of a hook itself, even without factoring in bribes and political favor-trading. Since the entire Celestial Bureaucracy had to undergo massive restructuring efforts in the post-Crusade/Contagion aftermath, it seems only natural that there would be a growing number of gods more than willing to sacrifice something of the day-to-day consistency in Creation's affairs in favor of cementing their standing in the Bureau, lest they get forced out onto the street with the domain-less gods who can't make any inroads against the Old Boys Club atmosphere of those who successfully weathered the storm.

The system doesn't work well, but works well enough that the trade-off of added reliability on short-term interests in Yu-Shan insures the system will remain pleasantly stable for those enjoying high-status at the cost of making life hell for an unseen minority elsewhere. Which is all you could really ask for an administrative body obsessed with maintaining a status quo, but not entirely in agreement of what that status quo should be.
 
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Honestly, of all the things to make Heaven more precarious and fallible as a cosmic institution, a greater influx of inexperienced godblooded as personal agents filling in for/outright replacing the roles normally assumed by other gods would be enough of a hook itself, even without factoring in bribes and political favor-trading. Since the entire Celestial Bureaucracy had to undergo massive restructuring efforts in the post-Crusade/Contagion aftermath, it seems only natural that there would be a growing number of gods more than willing to sacrifice something of the day-to-day consistency in Creation's affairs in favor of cementing their standing in the Bureau, lest they get forced out onto the street with the domain-less gods who can't make any inroads against the Old Boys Club atmosphere of those who successfully weathered the storm.

The system doesn't work well, but works well enough that the trade-off of added reliability on short-term interests in Yu-Shan insures the system will remain pleasantly stable for those enjoying high-status at the cost of making life hell for an unseen minority elsewhere. Which is all you could really ask for an administrative body obsessed with maintaining a status quo, but not entirely in agreement of what that status quo should be.

Maligned as it might be, that was a plot hook in Dreams. The Solars were grooming their own, often less capable, halfcaste children to replace the DB in senior administrative roles.
 
I think the intention, long term, by the Solar's was to turn their kids into Dragonblood equivalents, so they could have proper Dynasties. However they hadn't gotten it right yet, (and probably wouldn't have gotten it right anytime soon). What was left were the Dragonblooded were rather bitter about all this, and the kids were loaded down with a lot of artefacts and massively expensive (Essance Wise) sorcery projects trying to bridge the gap.
 
Pointing at one person and saying "This, this is why everything is corrupt" is boring and also doesn't really make much sense to me. I don't care about clever and could normally take or leave sense but boring is right out.
I was more saying "This person is likely corrupt because the individual that is likely their direct superior is known for being corrupt, and would have ground them into the dirt if they tried to make waves".
 
I was more saying "This person is likely corrupt because the individual that is likely their direct superior is known for being corrupt, and would have ground them into the dirt if they tried to make waves".

You didn't quite communicate that in your post. You said Ryzala is in charge of bureacratic corruption i.e. they're responsible for corruption.

You then used that as a reason why one of her subordinates would be an unpleasant person. Not that they were corrupt, mind you (and the context of that discussion makes it clear that the two were distinct). Specifically that they were unpleasant.

That's why I used your post as a jumping off point: because I'd prefer if corruption was considered a social norm and used real life societies where that was true instead of being an aberration and moral failing*.

* Correct me if I'm wrong but I think this is what people mean when they refer to "Western" corruption? Using that word derailed things immediately.
 
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