Distance Learning for fun and profit...

You also see some very odd ideas in fics about how such combat actually works, too. I was reading one the other day that had the bad guys shooting a whole crapload of disruptor missiles at our plucky heros, then fighters to escort the missiles so the other side couldn't shoot them down... o_O
...I'm pretty sure that should be the other way 'round, with your spread of missiles "escorting" your fighters by forcing enemy forces to prioritize shooting/defeating a threat other than your far more valuable fighters.
 
Wait, what? Why would they...that seems utterly pointless. Surely the point of missiles is that they dont really matter if they get shot down, riight? If your going to send in an escort, why not just use bomber wings instead?
I could see really limited reasons to use fighters and missiles together - potentially using fighters to draw away an enemy fighter screen so that the missiles can get through unopposed. For example, in B5, some of the Earth Alliance heavier warships depended heavily on their fighters to protect against smaller threats. Pull them out of position, then send missiles through afterwards, or distract fighter screens from concentrating on missile defences... That makes some sense. There's also deploying jamming to degrade antimissile defences, though most such devices could be missile based themselves.
 
I could see really limited reasons to use fighters and missiles together - potentially using fighters to draw away an enemy fighter screen so that the missiles can get through unopposed. For example, in B5, some of the Earth Alliance heavier warships depended heavily on their fighters to protect against smaller threats. Pull them out of position, then send missiles through afterwards, or distract fighter screens from concentrating on missile defences... That makes some sense. There's also deploying jamming to degrade antimissile defences, though most such devices could be missile based themselves.
Thats not providing a fighter escort for missiles though. Thats using fighters to distract the enemies forces, which they would probably be doing anyway. Escorting missiles in the way that the Lizardly Wordsmith said is a pointless waist of resorces.
 
Clearing the way for a strike with fighters can make sense. The question of why, if you're sending small craft on the strike, you're using long range missiles instead of small craft-carried short range missiles stands though...
I believe (but cannot confirm off the top of my head) a Saphroneth fic had that scenario, and the reasoning was that the long range missiles were for softening up the targets, while the fighters were for confirming the kills.
 
Wait, what? Why would they...that seems utterly pointless. Surely the point of missiles is that they dont really matter if they get shot down, riight? If your going to send in an escort, why not just use bomber wings instead?
Well, less that you don't care if they get shot down (you just care that enough make it though). The thing with missiles is that you don't expect them to return (if they do, something has gone horribly wrong), so you can remove a lot of the stuff required for two way travel. Also, less biological stuff so you don't have to keep to limited maneuvers.

So even if your missiles have the same fuel tanks as the fighters, that means they can go further or faster (who cares about mpg/kpl on a short one-way trip). Your missiles aren't typically caring missiles themselves (unless you are in Macross/Robotech-verse). Yeah, fighters escorting missiles is worthless. It may be sort of worth it, if your fighters are drones and they are there to keep the enemy busy shooting down more targets to over whelm the enemy's systems, while your ships run away.

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I believe (but cannot confirm off the top of my head) a Saphroneth fic had that scenario, and the reasoning was that the long range missiles were for softening up the targets, while the fighters were for confirming the kills.
Evidently, the ships don't have telescopes better than the close range sensors that you can put on fighters. The only time I can thing that it would work is in UC gundam, but they shouldn't be firing missiles at any distant target.
 
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So I just had a thought why not use a mass effect Drive sort of like a recoverable rocket booster on a missile and have it detach before impact therefore causing the Larenz factor to coming to play?
 
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The point of missiles is that they are self guided and thus more likely to hit. If they are shot down, they do no damage to the enemy. So a missile that gets shot down, is a missile that might as well have never been fired.

And Mass Effect's disrupter torpedos/missiles apparently are difficult to shoot down due to their mass being increased initially, but this makes them slow and easy to dodge. It's not until they are close to the target that the disrupter missile switches from "slow and heavy" to normal speed. Nor are they self guided. They aren't missiles or torpedos so much as directional rockets.

The whole idea that manned fighters of all things could outmanouvre a decent missile is ridiculous anyway. Even now we could build an autonomous device like that which would be damn near impossible to interdict manually, the main limitation being fuel. Eezo removes that limitation, and by the time of canon ME, the missiles should be close to invulnerable by anything using an organic brain because they would react much too fast to get anywhere near.

The disruptor torpedo explanation is also completely daft. If you're using mass effect fields to make your missile 'appear' more massive than it really is, why the hell is this field turned on during flight?. You do the exact opposite thing and wind the effective mass down as far as possible, then accelerate like a bat out of hell. You only turn the mass up moments before impact.

I can only assume that ME species have crap computers that can't work fast enough to make the things effective if they're too quick :D Or possibly very bad software engineers...
 
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Spaceship design is weird you kind of want to point your accelerateing bits towards the enemy while not getting shot at said bits.
Besides anything capable of propelling a decently sized ship to meaningfull velocities in a reasonable time doubles as a weapon.
What media depicts as the front of a ship really should be the top, so acceleration doesn't fuck your stuff up if artificial gravity fails for any reason. And you'd want to be able to thrust in any direction anyway.
Stuff gets complicated fast.
Thrusters aren't necessarily an especially vulnerable part of the ship. And depending on setting they don't necessarily prevent putting your weapons pointing backwards either. But only being able to shoot backwards is easily as tactically limiting as only being able to shoot forwards!

It's easy enough to arrange your ship with 'skyscraper' style decks instead of longitudinal decks, and common in written SF if not visual.

Ideally you'd like omnidirectional thrust capability, but most settings (and probably real space) don't make that a convenient option.
I believe (but cannot confirm off the top of my head) a Saphroneth fic had that scenario, and the reasoning was that the long range missiles were for softening up the targets, while the fighters were for confirming the kills.
Not really a case of fighters escorting the missiles in that case, though? Or maybe it is if they're escorting them against midcourse interception, peeling off for the missile's attack run, and then going in for mop-up...
 
The whole idea that manned fighters all things could outmanouvre a decent missile is ridiculous anyway. Even now we could build an autonomous device like that which would be damn near impossible to interdict manually, the main limitation being fuel. Eezo removes that limitation, and by the time of canon ME, the missiles should be close to invulnerable by anything using an organic brain because they would react much too fast to get anywhere near.

The disruptor torpedo explanation is also completely daft. If you're using mass effect fields to make your missile 'appear' more massive than it really is, why the hell is this field turned on during flight?. You do the exact opposite thing and wind the effective mass down as far as possible, then accelerate like a bat out of hell. You only turn the mass up moments before impact.

I can only assume that ME species have crap computers that can't work fast enough to make the things effective if they're too quick :D Or possibly very bad sof

Because, as far as I can tell, ME scientists and engineers concluded that, for some strange reason, it's better to have a slow and easily dodged missile that will shrug off attempts to shoot it down then it is to have a fast and difficult to target missile that is easy to shoot down, if you could target it.

Also, ME doesn't use computer guidence systems at all. That would be too close to an AI, after all. So their "missiles" are actually unguided rockets. Once launched, they go in a strait line, and only in a strait line.
 
Most ME stories lack imagination in the weapons department. Luckily we have Taylor Hebert here, and one thing she doesn't lack is imagination...
Yeah, I think the codex got it mostly right, describing a skirmish as jumping in, shooting in the direction of the enemy, then jumping away and waiting for everything to cool down, before attacking again. Remember, the QEC is extremely advanced and expensive technology by the time of ME2, so organization and reaction times are limited by the speed of light, and the length of a skirmish is largely determined by heat sinks, radiators and proximity to hot stars.

This isn't cinematic, however, fleets dancing around and scattering shots where the enemy might be, never being within visual range of the enemy nor any friendly vessels, so I think people tend to go for the close range knife fights seen in cutscenes, or the space-is-an-ocean approach of having motherships disgorge strike craft on torpedo runs against other motherships, with smaller capital ships forming wolfpacks and hunting other capitals and ganging up on motherships or screening the approach for strike missions.

Space is big, though, and it makes absolutely no sense to put a person inside a missile so the missile can fly and shoot off a smaller missile, before turning and shooting back at the mothership with the intent to rendezvous. I think we might see something like nukes flying around and the main purpose of any subcraft would be to relay sensor data and intercept munitions, with the goal of the nuke being to explode in a manner annoying to the recipient. Actual mass drivers would probably be useless over the distances you'd lob missiles at, as ships can dodge in any direction, and even make small, evasive jumps.

Of course, this assumes no logical, technological innovation as pertains to space battles, and I'm pretty sure Taylor at least would have something to say about that. I'm pretty sure she could pump the energy release of a bomb into some gravity-manipulation equipment for pretty exotic effects, for one.
 
... I just read your post, and my first thought was 'casualty-violation weapons', or 'I shot you now, which means you were hit before I shot you, as I wouldn't be shooting you if I missed'.
Things that retroactively make sure they hit.
Fun stuff.
... Please have someone ensure that Taylor does NOT get her hands on any of the Fate series works. We don't want her to make a ranged version of the Barbed Spear that Pierces with Death(Gáe Bolg).

Or at least, any more ranged as it could be, seeing as it can be thrown as well as thrust/stabbed. Polearms already have long enough range as stabbing weapons, as it is...
 
I've said this before, but the whole issue with ME combat being largely throwing very fast rocks at each other is that (A) they only go in straight lines aligned with the horizontal axis of the ship, making targeting require pointing your ship directly at the enemy, which also means you're moving towards the enemy, and (B) if you're moving very fast towards each other in battle, it makes dodging an incoming projectile much harder even with ME fields. There's going to be a limit to how far you can actually move sideways while accelerating forwards. And of course if you're dodging, that means that your target lock on the opponent is necessarily lost until you can point directly at him again...

This bit is not really true. There's nothing stopping a ship in space rotating at any angle from its direction of travel, firing and then rotating to whichever direction it wants to accelerate in now. You could quite cheerfully skate sideways across the bow of your opponent while firing your spinal weapon directly at them and even if you engage your main engine while you do so you will only find yourself curving around in a circle around them.

You could in fact circle your opponent using only your lateral momentum and main engines while keeping your spinal weapon pointed directly at them the whole time if you get your acceleration right.
 
Because, as far as I can tell, ME scientists and engineers concluded that, for some strange reason, it's better to have a slow and easily dodged missile that will shrug off attempts to shoot it down then it is to have a fast and difficult to target missile that is easy to shoot down, if you could target it.

Also, ME doesn't use computer guidence systems at all. That would be too close to an AI, after all. So their "missiles" are actually unguided rockets. Once launched, they go in a strait line, and only in a strait line.
... on one hand, that is incredibly dumb and I at a glance assume this is a joke.
On the other the AI ideas of ME tends towards the incredibly dumb even when they show 'advanced' AI, so a part of me could believe this.
 
The whole idea that manned fighters all things could outmanouvre a decent missile is ridiculous anyway. Even now we could build an autonomous device like that which would be damn near impossible to interdict manually, the main limitation being fuel. Eezo removes that limitation, and by the time of canon ME, the missiles should be close to invulnerable by anything using an organic brain because they would react much too fast to get anywhere near.
Economic considerations? You could build an antiship missile with the maneuver capability and sensors to dance around fighters. But if you did, it would cost at least as much as a fighter. If you want to fire a lot of them, it's probably worth cutting down to a more basic weapon...
Also, ME doesn't use computer guidence systems at all. That would be too close to an AI, after all. So their "missiles" are actually unguided rockets. Once launched, they go in a strait line, and only in a strait line.
It's hard to imagine that would be any use against targets more mobile than the Citadel,
 
Thrusters aren't necessarily an especially vulnerable part of the ship. And depending on setting they don't necessarily prevent putting your weapons pointing backwards either. But only being able to shoot backwards is easily as tactically limiting as only being able to shoot forwards!

It's easy enough to arrange your ship with 'skyscraper' style decks instead of longitudinal decks, and common in written SF if not visual.

Ideally you'd like omnidirectional thrust capability, but most settings (and probably real space) don't make that a convenient option.

Not really a case of fighters escorting the missiles in that case, though? Or maybe it is if they're escorting them against midcourse interception, peeling off for the missile's attack run, and then going in for mop-up...
The idea of putting most of your weapons backwards is that if you are running away you can shoot at your enemy and if you are coming in for an alpha strike you'd be preparing for an deceleration burn anyway granted it lends itself better to hit and run tactics, but that seems more interesting to me, at least if you don't have to worry too much about delta-V.
 
The idea of putting most of your weapons backwards is that if you are running away you can shoot at your enemy and if you are coming in for an alpha strike you'd be preparing for an deceleration burn anyway granted it lends itself better to hit and run tactics, but that seems more interesting to me, at least if you don't have to worry too much about delta-V.
But it means that if you're chasing someone, you can't shoot at them without losing the ability to accelerate towards them.

It's good if you're counting on your enemy to always be either trying to close in on you or receiving your fast pass, but those aren't the only engagement scenarios.
 
But it means that if you're chasing someone, you can't shoot at them without losing the ability to accelerate towards them.

It's good if you're counting on your enemy to always be either trying to close in on you or receiving your fast pass, but those aren't the only engagement scenarios.
Or, like the good ol' Spathi, if your primary goal is always "Get away from danger" instead of "Kill the enemy".
 
It's hard to imagine that would be any use against targets more mobile than the Citadel,

Thus why space battles are either "knife fight" range or "jump in, spray-n-pray, jump out" engagements. I'd imagine that humanity got smacked down HARD by the Council after the First Contact War because humans were using self guided missiles.
 
The disruptor torpedo explanation is also completely daft. If you're using mass effect fields to make your missile 'appear' more massive than it really is, why the hell is this field turned on during flight?. You do the exact opposite thing and wind the effective mass down as far as possible, then accelerate like a bat out of hell. You only turn the mass up moments before impact.

If they have a longer range than the sensors, then making them look big and relatively slow distracts from your main ships with the spinal mounted guns. As a bonus if they get close enough they can be used to kill the opposition.

Given that their scanners seem to work primarily on eezo and mass signatures rather than something as prosaic as radar, I presume that they can detect the ftl propegation of eezo as it takes a ship ftl.

As such the disruptor is for what it does for enemies formations and tactics as they have to
 
Because, as far as I can tell, ME scientists and engineers concluded that, for some strange reason, it's better to have a slow and easily dodged missile that will shrug off attempts to shoot it down then it is to have a fast and difficult to target missile that is easy to shoot down, if you could target it.

Also, ME doesn't use computer guidence systems at all. That would be too close to an AI, after all. So their "missiles" are actually unguided rockets. Once launched, they go in a strait line, and only in a strait line.

Making the missile artificially more massive won't make it harder to kill, though. It'll still blow up fine if you actually hit it, and if it's massive enough its own gravity well will tend to attract a near miss... While making the missile Very Fucking Fast™ is going to reduce the likelihood of a successful interdiction by a massive amount, especially if you make it low mass enough you can have it jinking around like a flea on meth on the way in :)

And unguided missiles are even worse than very fast rocks, in my view. Based on this sort of thing, humans by the time of canon ME should have absolutely slaughtered the Turians unless they were completely overwhelmed by sheer numbers. Remember that back in the early 1970s we had designs for missiles that could accelerate at over 400g as last ditch interceptors for incoming ballistic missiles. That one, the HiBex, wasn't actually fielded, but the Sprint missiles which accelerated at over 100g was, and it was doing this on chemical rockets... And it used a small neutron bomb as the payload, too.

200 years of development of this sort of crazy weapons system should have produced some fairly impressive stuff :)

This bit is not really true. There's nothing stopping a ship in space rotating at any angle from its direction of travel, firing and then rotating to whichever direction it wants to accelerate in now. You could quite cheerfully skate sideways across the bow of your opponent while firing your spinal weapon directly at them and even if you engage your main engine while you do so you will only find yourself curving around in a circle around them.

You could in fact circle your opponent using only your lateral momentum and main engines while keeping your spinal weapon pointed directly at them the whole time if you get your acceleration right.

Well, there is something stopping this being practical, this being your thrust source. As I understand it, the mass effect drive isn't actually a drive in the normal sense you're thinking of, it merely lowers the mass of the ship to the point that Magic Happens™ and it can somehow accelerate past the speed of light. The actual thrust is produced by a fusion reaction drive, or in some advanced ships later on, by an antiproton drive. These are still rockets, and the main engines are going to be at the rear of the ship, producing a vector through the centerline. It's certainly not going to be set up to give omnidirectional thrust at the same power level, at least based on every image of a ME ship I've ever seen. Manouvering thrusters will allow you to turn, yes, and slide sideways, but not at anything even remotely close to the level you can accelerate on the main drive. And the ME field doesn't as far as I know entirely remove inertia, it just reduces it massively. So put together this means that if you're accelerating hard, there's a distinct upper limit to how far and how fast you can shift direction, especially if you want to keep your ultimate vector pointing at the enemy.

Plus, remember, the shots are completely unguided and unpowered. Once they leave the mass driver they're subject to normal inertia, so if you do have a vector that's got sideways motion as well as forward motion at the time you fire a shot, the projectile will retain that combined motion, and track sideways relative to the target. You're either going to have to compensate for that by firing off in the other direction and allowing the vector to bring your shot on target, or aim directly at the guy and have no off-axis motion at all. Which, again, means you're both going right down each other's throats :D

All the video I've seen of battles in the game show the ships firing in dead straight lines at each other, so logically they're doing the latter method.

Economic considerations? You could build an antiship missile with the maneuver capability and sensors to dance around fighters. But if you did, it would cost at least as much as a fighter. If you want to fire a lot of them, it's probably worth cutting down to a more basic weapon...

Economies of scale should make such a thing a fairly minor problem. A lot of the cost of a fighter after all is going to be put towards keeping the pilot intact enough to get them back after the battle. Removing all of that would make the missile much cheaper than the equivalent fighter regardless of how much it ended up costing. After all, a modern fighter jet is easily capable of pulling turns that will kill the pilot instantly and handling it without trouble, but because pilots tend to complain about this, it's limited to only a few g. Take the guy in the seat out of the equation and you could make even an F-22 turn about four times as hard quite happily...
 
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But it means that if you're chasing someone, you can't shoot at them without losing the ability to accelerate towards them.

It's good if you're counting on your enemy to always be either trying to close in on you or receiving your fast pass, but those aren't the only engagement scenarios.
Well yeah, any spinal mounted weapon trades flexibility for a big fucking gun, no matter which way you point it.
Thinking about it the most ridiculous way to implement it is just having a big accelerator hole through your entire ship that way you can fire it either way, or if you are really crazy line up multiple ships to get an even bigger cannon.
Or, like the good ol' Spathi, if your primary goal is always "Get away from danger" instead of "Kill the enemy".
What's a Spathi?
 
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