Distance Learning for fun and profit...

[FaerieKnight79]

Dont trust me on this, but I thought Amy basically ordered them to throw her in the Birdcage or she would destroy the world for some reason. I don't know if that's canon or Fanon, but its the thing that I see a lot of when this topic is brought up.

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Far as I can tell, if that's the case it was a WoG made on an RPG dedicated forum. That post is the citation in the wiki, but the post it's self is gone. Maybe someone more knowledgeable then I could find it with the Wayback Machine. As far as I know, Worm it's self doesn't mention why she got sent there, just that it happens. And it's presumably because when trying to save Vicky's life Amy lost track of what Vicky was suppose to look like (and is thought by readers to have sexually assaulted Vicky in the process). Note, from my reading through those sections, this assumption by readers is because in an interlude Amy was confronted by Victoria "all aura no self-control" Dallon while in a fragile emotional state. Vicky then hugs Amy, despite being told not to. And Amy has a moment of weakness where she alters Vicky's brain chemistry to cause Vicky to reciprocate Amy's feelings. Something which Amy immediately admits to, and tries to undo... but which Vicky refuses to allow due to disgust over what happened. I doubt it's canon that Amy sexually assaults Vicky while trying to save the girl's life. Instead Vicky accuses Amy of modifying her to be a "cuddle sex toy." Something that is probably not actually true, and it's just Vicky's revulsion and hate over that earlier mistake which Amy wanted to undo.

 

[Aineko]

The point of the Birdcage is that there is no way out. It doesn't matter if you were actually innocent, once you're in the Birdcage, that's it. Another point is that, unlike the death penalty, the sentence is carried out immediately. No appeal, no retrial, no presidential pardon, just locked up and they can't throw away the key because there never was one.

The death penalty has such a long and drawn out appeals process because it's so damn final, and there's the possibility of an innocent person getting the sentence due to railroading or being framed. Here is an interesting article on the issue from 2014. As it turns out, as many as 1 in 25 people on death row are probably innocent. But a startling low percentage of them get exonirated before their sentence is commuted into life without parole or they get executed. At least, that was the case in 2014. And death penalty cases have by far the highest rate of innocent people being exonerated in the US justice system because such cases are under so much scrutiny.

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This is all valid, but the review and delay of capital or otherwise irreparable punishment is not constitutionally required. At least, it certainly wasn't historically seen as such - the Supreme Court can always change its institutional mind on that point. Appeal in general isn't specifically noted either though it may be considered to be a necessary part of due process. However, appeals aren't automatic - you(r lawyer) has to actually file them and all that. In the Canary case, it doesn't seem like she had any real legal representation, which means there was probably no one trying to seek an appeal. (That, obviously, is very very illegal.)

(I don't remember enough canon around Amy's caging to comment on that.)

 

[Pethrai Darkos]

This is all valid, but the review and delay of capital or otherwise irreparable punishment is not constitutionally required.

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It doesn't have to be. If everyone else gets an appeals process then being denied one, not just not doing it but being actively denied it, is Cruel and Unusual Punishment (specifically the unusual bit) and that is against the Constitution.

 

[Aineko]

It doesn't have to be. If everyone else gets an appeals process then being denied one, not just not doing it but being actively denied it, is Cruel and Unusual Punishment (specifically the unusual bit) and that is against the Constitution.

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Appeals or lack of appeals isn't punishment.

 

[TypoNinja]

Appeals or lack of appeals isn't punishment.

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There's room to argue that.

You are being denied a right everyone else enjoys. Typically that requires some form of due process to achieve.

This is one of the reasons it takes so long to execute someone, even after conviction, as the legal system then proceeds to double and triple checking all the work done. In fact some of the appeals processes start automatically. Upon a death sentence your case is automatically sent to a higher court for review in some States.

 

[Aineko]

There's room to argue that.

You are being denied a right everyone else enjoys. Typically that requires some form of due process to achieve.

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That's an equal protection or due process argument, not a cruel and unusual punishment argument. And the trial and sentencing could constitute due process - dubious if no appeal is allowed (do we know that?) but certainly it's a process.

Equal protection arguments could probably be made against every bit of parahuman-related law, but if the courts consider parahuman status to not merit protections they might not get anywhere.

One could try to argue the Birdcage is cruel and unusual because of the lack of any measures to (even pretend to) protect the prisoners against each other. It might work.

 

[Bezzerker]

Far as I can tell, if that's the case it was a WoG made on an RPG dedicated forum. That post is the citation in the wiki, but the post it's self is gone. Maybe someone more knowledgeable then I could find it with the Wayback Machine. As far as I know, Worm it's self doesn't mention why she got sent there, just that it happens. And it's presumably because when trying to save Vicky's life Amy lost track of what Vicky was suppose to look like (and is thought by readers to have sexually assaulted Vicky in the process). Note, from my reading through those sections, this assumption by readers is because in an interlude Amy was confronted by Victoria "all aura no self-control" Dallon while in a fragile emotional state. Vicky then hugs Amy, despite being told not to. And Amy has a moment of weakness where she alters Vicky's brain chemistry to cause Vicky to reciprocate Amy's feelings. Something which Amy immediately admits to, and tries to undo... but which Vicky refuses to allow due to disgust over what happened. I doubt it's canon that Amy sexually assaults Vicky while trying to save the girl's life. Instead Vicky accuses Amy of modifying her to be a "cuddle sex toy." Something that is probably not actually true, and it's just Vicky's revulsion and hate over that earlier mistake which Amy wanted to undo.

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I haven't read much of canon (as what little I have has put me off of reading the rest), but my understanding is that the potential sexual assualt took place much later, specifically after Amy has her little chat with Jack.

I think the idea was that the Blob!Vicky was supposed to be a result of that, and also the form that Vicky was referring to when describing being modified into a "cuddle sex toy". I believe the specifics is that Amy mentions to Carol of being in a fugue like state after Skitter leaves, and is the reason she should be sent to the Birdcage.

Again, I'm unsure as I haven't read enough of canon to know where to even look to find that particular passage.

 

[Chronocidal]

That's an equal protection or due process argument, not a cruel and unusual punishment argument. And the trial and sentencing could constitute due process - dubious if no appeal is allowed (do we know that?) but certainly it's a process.

Equal protection arguments could probably be made against every bit of parahuman-related law, but if the courts consider parahuman status to not merit protections they might not get anywhere.

One could try to argue the Birdcage is cruel and unusual because of the lack of any measures to (even pretend to) protect the prisoners against each other. It might work.

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They have monitoring of the inside of the birdcage. They know that there is a hole between the male and female sides.

So, at this point, they have the choice of drugging everyone with contraceptives against their will (and hoping that they still work on anyone with a Brute rating, a non-standard physiology, or a chemical resistance, or a Tinker ability that might be able to detect and isolate them), or allow children to be born into a supposedly inescapable prison. (i.e. a suspension of the writ of habeas corpus — only legal for purposes of public safety in times of war, when the fighting was taking place in the USA, later clarified in 1866 by the Supreme Court to only apply to the specific States where fighting occurred and civillian courts were not operating)

Either the Worm-verse US constitution is different (be it originally, or by amendment), or continued use of the Birdcage from the point the wall was breached is unconstitutional, regardless of any other arguments that may have applied prior to that point. (e.g. 'cruel and unusual punishment' or 'due process')

 

[Aineko]

They have monitoring of the inside of the birdcage. They know that there is a hole between the male and female sides.

So, at this point, they have the choice of drugging everyone with contraceptives against their will (and hoping that they still work on anyone with a Brute rating, a non-standard physiology, or a chemical resistance, or a Tinker ability that might be able to detect and isolate them), or allow children to be born into a supposedly inescapable prison. (i.e. a suspension of the writ of habeas corpus — only legal for purposes of public safety in times of war, when the fighting was taking place in the USA, later clarified in 1866 by the Supreme Court to only apply to the specific States where fighting occurred and civillian courts were not operating)

Either the Worm-verse US constitution is different (be it originally, or by amendment), or continued use of the Birdcage from the point the wall was breached is unconstitutional, regardless of any other arguments that may have applied prior to that point. (e.g. 'cruel and unusual punishment' or 'due process')

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That certainly would become a problem once any children were born there, and it's logical to think they would be. Canonically, were any? Because that only becomes a hard problem to willfully ignore once it's real rather than in the future.

(I'd think the result is not a suspension of the writ of habeas corpus, it's merely creating such a situation inviting such a writ with allegedly no way to satisfy it. That might cause Dragon to do interesting things, once she's given a firm legal order to extract a person from the birdcage...)

 

[M. H. Fuzzball]

What's supposed to be unconstitutional about the birdcage, though?

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Maybe that it is supposedly impossible to get out? Therefore, even if there later is proof you were in fact innocent, they can't (or at least that's what they want you to think) release you.

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There is also the point that American courts are sending prisoners to a prison in a different country. Since to my knowledge Baumann is somewhere in the Canadian Rockies.

 

[Bel]

...that talk of children being born in the Birdcage reminds me of one of the snippets on Spacebattles worm threads, that kind of mixed in with Batman Rises. Basically, as I remember it, Annette was already pregnant when she was sentenced to the birdcage and Taylor(well, Taylor in name only). It kind of had the same kind of thing with Bane climbing up from his prison, but it was Taylor climbing out (which wouldn't really work for the mechanics of the Birdcage but whatever), and banking on the fact she hadn't committed a crime to stop Dragon just shooting her for breaking out. I rather liked it.

 

[FaerieKnight79]

Well, here's the thing about the Birdcage. Since there are no guards, and even Dragon doesn't actively manage and control the prison population, there are only two ways there wouldn't be children getting conceived and born in the prison. Those are if Dragon was doing something via drugs or a tinkertech field to prevent pregnancy, or if all prisoners are forcefully sterilized before their sentence is carried out. In the first case, what would prevent any of the tinkers locked up in the birdcage from creating a counter to such a device? It's not like Dragon can actually do anything to the prisoners. More on that later though.

In the second case, that as far as I can find is VERY illegal. All the laws that eugenics enthusiasts got passed in the start of the 20th century got thrown out in the 70's. From what I can find, such laws were deemed inhumane, unethical, and unconstitutional. Every time you hear about such a thing happening in a prison now, it's when the inmate gave consent. It might have been given under duress, but they still had to give consent and had the option to reject having it done. Prisons offer time off sentences if the inmates get sterilized, but it's still the prisoner's decision to take the offer. Or the prosecution put it in as a plea deal requirement. No lawyer worthy of being called one is going to accept such a deal without explaining it to their client and asking if the client accepts that condition. If this is going on, then the Birdcage is very much in trouble the second that fact became known to the public. But it's doubtful this route is being taken. It would be impossible, considering there are inmates who regenerate (such as Lung), and after Amy got sent imprisoned there in canon she could easily undo such surgeries. Actually, there' s probably a number of prisoners who could do that one way or another.

But let's go back to that tinkertech option. As mentioned, Dragon doesn't actually have any control over what happens inside the prison. Once inmates are processed, she can't actually do anything except watch. So... just how is it that tinkers are incapable of building something to allow an escape? The only way this would be possible is if there are absolutely no tools or materials anywhere in the prison. But I don't think that's actually possible to achieve. The entire prison would have to consist of two humongous boxes, no seperate cells/rooms (which are canon to exist), no beds, no sheets, no pillows, no forks, no knives, no silverware, no running water.... You get the idea. Prisoners in our world are notorious for the ability to kitbash weapons and tools out of anything on hand. You think the people imprisoned in the Birdcage can't do that? You think the tinkers can't do that? That they can't improvise tools, to make tools, to make he tools needed to make the thing they want to build? They did it before, they could do it again. They WOULD do it again. And Dragon can't stop them from doing it either.

Really, I think the only reason the Birdcage is as escape proof as it's suppose to be in canon is... because Wildbow assumed all prisoners would make one basic and inept attempt at escape then give up, regardless of what type of power they had. And the only reason there were no pregnancies in the prison in canon is... because Wildbow never considered that this is even a possibility.

 

[Leon12431]

well, it could be that however the prison is build its basically impossible to get out. Isn't Dragon's whole thing that she can understand/use other tinker's tech after studying it a bit? If that is the case then it could be reasonable to say that she made a study of Haywire or another dimensional tinker and shoved the thing into a pocket dimension, which would be a pretty good way of sealing it off from the outside if the portal in and out is kept above ground in a heavily defended point of contact.

of course that is fanon but its possible that Dragon did something to make the prison that impossible to escape. Anything that a person inside could build, Dragon can watch and build countermeasures in real time if its a real threat. Also the whole taciturn acceptance of the thing being a death sentence would make it difficult to get out by threatening to kill people on the inside.

So there are reasons, but poorly implemented ones at best.

 

[sdwood]

There was another thread where the interpretation of the legality of Kill Orders was much closer to Stand Your Ground laws than a trial in absentia.

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Keep in mind: as far as I can tell, 'Wanted Dead or Alive' bounties? Yeah, those probably didn't happen. At all. So, you know, _completely_ violating all of US jurisprudence.

 

[FaerieKnight79]

Keep in mind: as far as I can tell, 'Wanted Dead or Alive' bounties? Yeah, those probably didn't happen. At all. So, you know, _completely_ violating all of US jurisprudence.

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Historically, Wanted: Dead or Alive bounties did exist. But they weren't cart blanche to kill the felon. You were expected, and suppose to bring them in alive unless they were actively trying to kill you or fleeing. However, historically it was often the case that such a capture happened out in the middle of nowhere, with no other witnesses. So the bounty hunter or lawman would bring in a corpse, and say the criminal was killed during a gunfight or while fleeing. I'd imagine that this was easy to get away with, so long as everyone involved had the same story. I'd also imagine everyone knew what likely actually happened, but so long as it was plausable this was overlooked. That said, when Jesse James was killed by two of his compatriots who intended to claim the bounty on Jesse Jame's head, they apparently instead got arrested for murder and sentenced to hanging. They swiftly got pardoned by the governor, but that's another matter.

Also, historically Dead or Alive bounties would be put up by private individuals or companies such as the railroad tycoons as a way to incentivise law enforcement to actually prioritize that criminal. State issued bounties would typically require the person to be brought in alive, and often wouldn't pay out until a conviction had been made.

 

[sdwood]

Historically, Wanted: Dead or Alive bounties did exist. But they weren't cart blanche to kill the felon.

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IIRC, when I looked things up a couple of years ago, the 'dead or alive' bit was... just understood. Wink wink, nudge nudge.

It was _not_ a case of someone effectively being sentenced to death in absentia.

I'd look it up again, but frankly, I'm too busy trying to cough so hard I leave my lungs on my blanket to do so.

As an aside, looking up things like 'wanted dead or alive' is remarkably pleasant in comparison.

 

[TypoNinja]

My understanding of the subject matches you two, 'wanted dead or alive' was very much a "We want him alive", the 'dead' part was more an equivalent to our 'known to be armed and dangerous' warning.

You are still very very much supposed to bring the target back to stand trial, and while no one would be shocked to find out you had to do unto the target before he did unto you, it was still very much murder if plan A was a rifle at 300 yards.

It was also much less common than Hollywood would have you believe. One of the sample posters from the Wikipedia page shows a 100,000 dollar reward for John Wilkes Booth. The equivalent of more than 1.6 million dollars today.

He was still wanted Alive.

 

[FaerieKnight79]

My understanding of the subject matches you two, 'wanted dead or alive' was very much a "We want him alive", the 'dead' part was more an equivalent to our 'known to be armed and dangerous' warning.

You are still very very much supposed to bring the target back to stand trial, and while no one would be shocked to find out you had to do unto the target before he did unto you, it was still very much murder if plan A was a rifle at 300 yards.

It was also much less common than Hollywood would have you believe. One of the sample posters from the Wikipedia page shows a 100,000 dollar reward for John Wilkes Booth. The equivalent of more than 1.6 million dollars today.

He was still wanted Alive.

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And that was a government posted bounty. As I mentioned, the ones that said "wanted: dead or alive" were not put up by the government. They were put up by powerful companies and/or individuals who wanted the person out of the way, and didn't care how. The bounties were to incentivise law enforcement to deal with the troublemaker.

 

[Aineko]

Back on the story, or at least the side story...

It seems like a good return shipment for the Quarians, besides The Amy brand physiological adjustment elixer, would be a Taylor-Tech FTL drive. Earth Bet isn't really in a position to get much use out of that in the near term, even if they knew that the Endbringers were no longer a problem. There's more than enough to do groundside, and later within the solar system, before a stardrive will really accomplish anything except make astronomers very happy and physicists very confused. And building a bunch of starships to go adventuring in another universe is the kind of thing you might have some difficulty convincing people was really a great funding priority.

But give the Quarians an FTL drive that doesn't have discharging limits, doesn't need Eezo, and is probably faster than the standard models? They could almost certainly manage to get things done with that. And Taylor gets extensive field testing data! (And throw in a gravitech shield so that 'run away' isn't their only trump card.)

 

[TypoNinja]

And that was a government posted bounty. As I mentioned, the ones that said "wanted: dead or alive" were not put up by the government. They were put up by powerful companies and/or individuals who wanted the person out of the way, and didn't care how. The bounties were to incentivise law enforcement to deal with the troublemaker.

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Contracted murder has never been legal.

Putting up a public notice to the effect of "capture this person for me, or kill him" sounds like a great way to get a visit from the Feds.

Adding your own cash on top of an existing government bounty to sweeten the pot sounds far more likely.

But give the Quarians an FTL drive that doesn't have discharging limits, doesn't need Eezo, and is probably faster than the standard models?

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Given the....questionable state of Citadel politics, I could see that backfiring.

Existing power bases tend to treat disruptive technology as a threat, and the best way to secure your power base is to make threats go away.

I made the point in another thread that 'game changing' tech tends to paint a target on your back as people want to either control it and/or you for themselves, or remove you and it to prevent enemies from using it.

Prime Asset Taylor has the advantage of joining forces with an existing major power, this removes a great deal of that downside, as there's at least one major power protecting her rather than looking at attacking her, and being under their protection makes attacks on her much more difficult. The, already out in the cold, short end of the stick, Migrant fleet, could be in for a world of pain if they don't immediately use their new drive tech to move to places that Citadel races can't get to them.

 

[Aineko]

Given the....questionable state of Citadel politics, I could see that backfiring.

Existing power bases tend to treat disruptive technology as a threat, and the best way to secure your power base is to make threats go away.

I made the point in another thread that 'game changing' tech tends to paint a target on your back as people want to either control it and/or you for themselves, or remove you and it to prevent enemies from using it.

Prime Asset Taylor has the advantage of joining forces with an existing major power, this removes a great deal of that downside, as there's at least one major power protecting her rather than looking at attacking her, and being under their protection makes attacks on her much more difficult. The, already out in the cold, short end of the stick, Migrant fleet, could be in for a world of pain if they don't immediately use their new drive tech to move to places that Citadel races can't get to them.

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If it's a good FTL drive and doesn't have restrictive activation conditions, they don't need to preemptively run away. They could wait and use it to run away when an actual present threat appears, without fear of being successfully pursued.

 

[Mr_Rose]

Since the Quarians were kicked out, are they technically bound by the Treaty of Farixen? Because I ca totally see them stockpiling "old dreadnought parts" and any assault on the Fleet as a whole suddenly finding they have to deal with more Dreadnought-class vessels than even the Turians have… not necessarily state-of-the-art ones, but then given the glacially slow progress of technology in canon ME, that wouldn't be that much of a disadvantage. Not like say a WWII battleship vs a Missile Destroyer.

 

[Chronocidal]

Since the Quarians were kicked out, are they technically bound by the Treaty of Farixen? Because I ca totally see them stockpiling "old dreadnought parts" and any assault on the Fleet as a whole suddenly finding they have to deal with more Dreadnought-class vessels than even the Turians have… not necessarily state-of-the-art ones, but then given the glacially slow progress of technology in canon ME, that wouldn't be that much of a disadvantage. Not like say a WWII battleship vs a Missile Destroyer.

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If you read the codex entries, rather than just watch the cinematics, there are two types of space combat in Mass Effect: short-range "knife fight" combat (which is the type we see in-game), and long-range fights between dreadnoughts and the like.

The latter is a bit like a game of Battleships, where you and your opponent can move your pieces by a square each turn — because while the missiles are capable of moving at FTL to hit their targets, the sensor data to target them isn't. This sounds like the sort of issue Taylor would fix in a couple of minutes, giving the Quarians an advantage equivalent to night-vision goggles inside a pitch-black building. Suddenly their frigates, or even single-seat fighters, become capable of taking out dreadnoughts from beyond engagement range.

 

[PossiblyEnos]

If it's a good FTL drive and doesn't have restrictive activation conditions, they don't need to preemptively run away. They could wait and use it to run away when an actual present threat appears, without fear of being successfully pursued.

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That would be a possible in any scenario that is not based on mindless unrestricted hate of all Council species. In other words, it just isn't possible with the audience here.

 

[Viribus Unitis]

Since the Quarians were kicked out, are they technically bound by the Treaty of Farixen? Because I ca totally see them stockpiling "old dreadnought parts" and any assault on the Fleet as a whole suddenly finding they have to deal with more Dreadnought-class vessels than even the Turians have… not necessarily state-of-the-art ones, but then given the glacially slow progress of technology in canon ME, that wouldn't be that much of a disadvantage. Not like say a WWII battleship vs a Missile Destroyer.

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Even if the Quarians are technically not part of the Citadel any more, and no longer bound by the Treaty, do you really think the Turians would not move in to enforce the Treaty anyway once they hear what is going on? They do have a tendency to be overzealous when enforcing Citadel law.