Be a Dungeon - The Quest

[Metrux]

Could we make a trap out of mirrors? Like a maze where every wall surface is a "self repairing"* mirror?

*uses the standard trap repair mechanic.

Click to shrink...

You could, though I'd suggest using something else reflective, instead of mirror. Even if self repairing, smart people could just break and pass mirror walls. It's a magic world, nothing stops you from creating that special super crystal xB

 

[san]

You could, though I'd suggest using something else reflective, instead of mirror. Even if self repairing, smart people could just break and pass mirror walls. It's a magic world, nothing stops you from creating that special super crystal xB

Click to shrink...

or i dunno just well polished silver or bronze and lure people in while making it a series of mirrors designed to all reflect the first in the lines reflection... And then have it so you can turn that mirror towards a super strong light source and then BAM you have a trap that blinds enemies possibly permanently as they go from near total darkness to completely blinding light.

I think that kind of trap is more evil, vicious and matching to Fae tastes than a basic mirror maze. It's basically a flashbang without the bang... though if you added even a mediocre bang it would probs be pretty bad in an enclosed space like this too.

 

[FullNothingness]

1. For the traps the mechanisms are different, with both values for concealment, effect and difficulty to escape.

Click to shrink...

Fair enough that traps are different but what about creatures with disabling or debuffing spells? What traits get used to determine if they are effective?

2. The Active is with a big A because it's meant to be important, I would explain it when you get to have a sentient inside, but since you're already planning on this I shall explain: your dungeon is limited by having Sentients inside, which constitutes as being Active or during Activity. This means that while your plan is possible, you shall limit what you can do, change or upgrade while Active. Do note that animals and non-sentient monsters don't have these limitations, though they also don't give mana justby being there.

Click to shrink...

So it would be a trade-off? By keeping people stuck in our dungeon we would be able to boost our mana income considerably but we couldn't spend it? I suppose that is an interesting dynamic. Still worthwhile to consider IMO.

3. I actually thought this up, which is why equipment and some Specials increase damage PER HIT, so this supposedly Angel of Bloodshed could do anything from 1 to 100 damage with each attack. The difference in dices is one of the only ways to have an active bonus in hit, together with leadership and some rare Specials, so it counts more for your active damage dealing, because otherwise you depend purely on luck to hit/evade.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, I figured special effects would likely limit the effectiveness of this tactic... But it still leaves open that a lot of the time a pixie with defense 2 might be worse than one with defense 1. Having to roll twice to defend will often be worse than having an effective -1 penalty to said roll (any bonus to an attackers roll is effectively the same as a penalty to your defense roll).

For example take two pixies shooting pixie fire at each other. If one has defense 2 then it would take 2 * (.9+.8+.7+.6+.5+.4+.3+.2+.1+0)/10 = .9 damage on average. The defense 1 pixie would take 1 * (1+.9+.8+.7+.6+.5+.4+.3+.2+.1)/10 = .55 damage on average. Defense 1 pixie will beat defense 2 pixie nearly every time.

or i dunno just well polished silver or bronze and lure people in while making it a series of mirrors designed to all reflect the first in the lines reflection... And then have it so you can turn that mirror towards a super strong light source and then BAM you have a trap that blinds enemies possibly permanently as they go from near total darkness to completely blinding light.

I think that kind of trap is more evil, vicious and matching to Fae tastes than a basic mirror maze. It's basically a flashbang without the bang... though if you added even a mediocre bang it would probs be pretty bad in an enclosed space like this too.

Click to shrink...

Or you make it so that if someone breaks a mirror they take damage from shattering their mirror image through sympathetic magic. A bit voodoo style, because they and their mirror image are so similar it ties them together so that when their mirror image is hurt they are too. Fun surprise for people who come up with the bright idea of just smashing the mirrors without actually having the magical knowledge to know why they shouldn't.

And then we put an invisible monster in there just because we are evil like that as their missed attacks might still smash mirrors.

 

[Mr.rodent]

I think a big part of deciding what type of dungeon we should aim at becoming it actually based on what kind of world this is and all sorts of other factors and what role dungeons play in it.

Because as much as the thread wants to be a murderhobo dungeon that's illogical if you actually want to have maximum mana gain.

Again deaths most likely gain you a tasty lump sum of mana, but the deadlier the dungeon, the LESS people will go in or attempt to adventure in it.

Again this all depends on what type of world this is, but if we can have some symbiotic relationship with the people around us ( or whomever) then we should.

Example: people go to dungeon to get strong/rich/experience. Land becomes safer in the surrounding area due to stronger lv individuals, less monsters, better economy etc. It just makes sense rather then people allowing a monster spawning death machine to stay active for very long without purging that shit on the spot.

Not saying we should be pascifist or lay down on our backs and get farmed, but making our dungeon so that adventures have to spend a longer time trying to get from point A to point B while making it so that after completion those same adventurers can come back several times just increase's how much mana you gain in the long run.

With our dungeon being a fae dungeon it would be a magic/trick/illusion/trap focused,dungeon most likely so this both plays to our strengths and allows for a variety of changes making the dungeon different every time. We spend less mana on reviving fallen units and less chance of being smashed by sword hero avenging the death of his favorite waifu to our despicable ways.

 

[RandomDwarf]

or we could have a trap I found in DND, have those bronze or mirrored walls MAKE any metal on you heat up to the point that its BOILING HOT unless you leave it behind to get to a supposed secret area...all the while some minions drag the heated metal away (immune to fire) and steal the metallic equipment.

also super crystal maze as one of our floors with it shifting into different formations depending on the time of day, with the end and beginning on opposite sides

(12 o clock as the beginning of the level, 6 o clock as the end of the maze, but its changes clockwise and then goes counter clockwise depending on if anyone entered last time or not, say one party goes in, clockwise, another eventually gets the idea from the first party once they finally get away back to the upper levels and leave. counter clockwise...and back and forth, sometimes randomly to just to screw with people!)

also can we have Flowey the Flower as our first floor boss? and also as a possible Repeating boss in the other floors? (optional boss...though he gets stronger each level)

until the players fight omega flowey...we could harvest so much mana from that fight *crackles in delight*

 

[FullNothingness]

I think a big part of deciding what type of dungeon we should aim at becoming it actually based on what kind of world this is and all sorts of other factors and what role dungeons play in it.

Because as much as the thread wants to be a murderhobo dungeon that's illogical if you actually want to have maximum mana gain.

Again deaths most likely gain you a tasty lump sum of mana, but the deadlier the dungeon, the LESS people will go in or attempt to adventure in it.

Again this all depends on what type of world this is, but if we can have some symbiotic relationship with the people around us ( or whomever) then we should.

Example: people go to dungeon to get strong/rich/experience. Land becomes safer in the surrounding area due to stronger lv individuals, less monsters, better economy etc. It just makes sense rather then people allowing a monster spawning death machine to stay active for very long without purging that shit on the spot.

Not saying we should be pascifist or lay down on our backs and get farmed, but making our dungeon so that adventures have to spend a longer time trying to get from point A to point B while making it so that after completion those same adventurers can come back several times just increase's how much mana you gain in the long run.

With our dungeon being a fae dungeon it would be a magic/trick/illusion/trap focused,dungeon most likely so this both plays to our strengths and allows for a variety of changes making the dungeon different every time. We spend less mana on reviving fallen units and less chance of being smashed by sword hero avenging the death of his favorite waifu to our despicable ways.

Click to shrink...

Except that until proven otherwise we have to assume that if intruders smash that crystal we are dead. Which could easily mean that deliberately rendering our defenses ineffective could be downright suicidal. If there is a generally hostile relationship between dungeons and people, which is hardly unlikely given that dungeons benefit from killing people a lot, what you are suggesting is rather foolish.

And even if there is a symbiotic relationship thing going on here we could still not want to go along with your plan since it would mean that if anyone wants to deny the the locals the resource of having a friendly local dungeon they'll still come in and try to kill us. And we would be fairly ineffective at actually stopping them since we would have crippled ourselves to seem friendly to said locals. Basically in that case the way I see it we can either be a resource that exists at the mercy of others or an actual player.

So the choice is to either try for real power or don't. And given those two choices I'd rather have real power.

 

[RandomDwarf]

Except that until proven otherwise we have to assume that if intruders smash that crystal we are dead. Which could easily mean that deliberately rendering our defenses ineffective could be downright suicidal. If there is a generally hostile relationship between dungeons and people which is hardly unlikely given that dungeons benefit from killing people a lot what you are suggesting is rather foolish.

And even if there is a symbiotic relationship thing going on here we could still not want to go along with your plan since it would mean that if anyone wants to deny the the locals the resource of having a friendly local dungeon they'll still come in and try to kill us. And we would be fairly ineffective at actually stopping them since we would have crippled ourselves to seem friendly to said locals. Basically in that case the way I see it we can either be a resource that exists at the mercy of others or an actual player.

So the choice is to either try for real power or don't. And given those two choices I'd rather have real power.

Click to shrink...

FINALLY SOMEONE GETS IT! you cant be nice all the time, sure the first levels should be that, tutorial levels...but we shouldn't cripple ourselves to such a stupid extent! this isn't a noble bright world unless the QM says it is, so believe it to be in-between NobleDark to GrimLight bullshit.

That just means survival and growth...and DONT listen to anyone who tries to tell us otherwise! they don't know what its like being a dungeon...assholes.

also no trusting magical contracts that don't show the fine print...or the other parts of it and the wording.

 

[Metrux]

Well, this discussion is giving me plenty of ideas But I must say you won't know how the world is until you "speak" with someone, and dungeons can't speak naturally, so... You'll probably have alot of guesswork on how you should treat and be treated by sentients :B I keep using this world because it isn't limited to humans, elfs, dwarfs, orcs and other common races, a dragon, a demon or a trully sentient plant would still count, just like any other creature capable of individual "advanced" thought.

 

[FullNothingness]

FINALLY SOMEONE GETS IT! you cant be nice all the time, sure the first levels should be that, tutorial levels...but we shouldn't cripple ourselves to such a stupid extent! this isn't a noble bright world unless the QM says it is, so believe it to be in-between NobleDark to GrimLight bullshit.

That just means survival and growth...and DONT listen to anyone who tries to tell us otherwise! they don't know what its like being a dungeon...assholes.

also no trusting magical contracts that don't show the fine print...or the other parts of it and the wording.

Click to shrink...

Well, to be exact I believe that being nice can be good strategy... But not to people intruding into our home with the intent to kill us and/or take our stuff. Getting allies is good, being a servant is not.

I don't see luring people into our dungeon to be something we should be focusing on to be honest. While it does give us mana it is also a major risk to our continued existence. IMO our real first goals should be to secure ourselves and to acquire some soulbound beings. With these two things secured we can start gathering information and see what our agenda should be further down the line.

Well, this discussion is giving me plenty of ideas But I must say you won't know how the world is until you "speak" with someone, and dungeons can't speak naturally, so... You'll probably have alot of guesswork on how you should treat and be treated by sentients :B I keep using this world because it isn't limited to humans, elfs, dwarfs, orcs and other common races, a dragon, a demon or a trully sentient plant would still count, just like any other creature capable of individual "advanced" thought.

Click to shrink...

Can the dungeon communicate with (soulbound) minions though? Because my assumption was that those would end up being our primary agents for interacting with the world outside ourselves.

 

[Metrux]

Well, to be exact I believe that being nice can be good strategy... But not to people intruding into our home with the intent to kill us and/or take our stuff. Getting allies is good, being a servant is not.

I don't see luring people into our dungeon to be something we should be focusing on to be honest. While it does give us mana it is also a major risk to our continued existence. IMO our real first goals should be to secure ourselves and to acquire some soulbound beings. With these two things secured we can start gathering information and see what our agenda should be further down the line.



Can the dungeon communicate with (soulbound) minions though? Because my assumption was that those would end up being our primary agents for interacting with the world outside ourselves.

Click to shrink...

That depends, there are some kinds of Soul Bound, and most of them are still monsters. The dungeon can speak, pass images and even emotions directly to any Soul Bound, but they are not necessarilly able to pass this on, and not all of them can leave the Dungeon. Besides, even if the players can make the Dungeon speak or give an order to a Soul Bound, the SB is still controlled by a single player, and thus it's his choice what to do :3 Yeah, I'm aware how this can backfire enormously, that's why I won't let just anyone receive a SB. That said, anyone staying with the quest and that participates in discussions can and should receive a chance (though from the one's "on the list" it'll be up to luck who receives when available).

Also, some common monsters can develop enough for communication, from the elemental and fae lines this should come sooner, while from the slime line... Probably never. So communication is not impossible, just not in the plans for short term.

 

[FullNothingness]

That depends, there are some kinds of Soul Bound, and most of them are still monsters. The dungeon can speak, pass images and even emotions directly to any Soul Bound, but they are not necessarilly able to pass this on, and not all of them can leave the Dungeon. Besides, even if the players can make the Dungeon speak or give an order to a Soul Bound, the SB is still controlled by a single player, and thus it's his choice what to do :3 Yeah, I'm aware how this can backfire enormously, that's why I won't let just anyone receive a SB. That said, anyone staying with the quest and that participates in discussions can and should receive a chance (though from the one's "on the list" it'll be up to luck who receives when available).

Also, some common monsters can develop enough for communication, from the elemental and fae lines this should come sooner, while from the slime line... Probably never. So communication is not impossible, just not in the plans for short term.

Click to shrink...

The soulbound can communicate things back to the dungeon too though? Even the ones that are not normally able to communicate much? Because if so they can at least function as basic scouts. And what determines if a soulbound can leave the dungeon?

Also a bit of a question that'll have a lot of influence on how players play their soulbound... Can they be brought back if killed?

 

[Metrux]

The soulbound can communicate things back to the dungeon too though? Even the ones that are not normally able to communicate much? Because if so they can at least function as basic scouts. And what determines if a soulbound can leave the dungeon?

Also a bit of a question that'll have a lot of influence on how players play their soulbound... Can they be brought back if killed?

Click to shrink...

1. Yes, it's, as the name implies, a soul connection. But, inside the Dungeon you can practly see all, only special skills or magics may hide someone/thing from you.
2. From the types of Soul Bound there are Outsiders (the player receiving the new Soul Bound chooses the type), and these are the only who can leave, though they can't stay that much time outside, it's still usefull for scouting or bringing new things for absorption.
3. Yes, though their cost is not the same as common monster of the same type, especially since Soul Bound are smarter, sentient (don't Activate, though) and can learn/grow independently.

 

[veekie]

Seems to me we want three layers. The newbie friendly inviting zone where we lure in people from around them, and basically act as a magic casino, where they can get scammed or come out with extra wealth or boons. The Trial zone where we actively start entrapping(or mentally dominate) and killing. And then the core zone where nobody is meant to approach.

Long way off though

 

[FullNothingness]

Seems to me we want three layers. The newbie friendly inviting zone where we lure in people from around them, and basically act as a magic casino, where they can get scammed or come out with extra wealth or boons. The Trial zone where we actively start entrapping(or mentally dominate) and killing. And then the core zone where nobody is meant to approach.

Long way off though

Click to shrink...

That really depends on how much mana adventurers generate by simply being present. Remember that it seems like we'll be paying mana to replace dead creatures and spent/destroyed traps. Unless adventurers generate a lot of mana having them in our dungeon breaking things is actively detrimental.

It seems likely that we may want to go more "fortress" than "casino" here.


BTW @Metrux You didn't respond to my comment on how more defense is a bad thing to have a lot of the time. I did the math a bit and found out that for example having defense 4 means you take more hits than having defense 1 in every scenario other than the attacker having attack 1. Granted having very high defense can be better than having defense 1... But in general that tipping point tends to lie somewhere near having twice as much defense as the attacker has attack.

I strongly suspect this won't work out like you want it to. As in if you offered right now to buff our pixies with a couple of points of free 'bonus' defense I'd advice the thread against it because it would make our pixies easier to kill.

 

[Metrux]

That really depends on how much mana adventurers generate by simply being present. Remember that it seems like we'll be paying mana to replace dead creatures and spent/destroyed traps. Unless adventurers generate a lot of mana having them in our dungeon breaking things is actively detrimental.

It seems likely that we may want to go more "fortress" than "casino" here.


BTW @Metrux You didn't respond to my comment on how more defense is a bad thing to have a lot of the time. I did the math a bit and found out that for example having defense 4 means you take more hits than having defense 1 in every scenario other than the attacker having attack 1. Granted having very high defense can be better than having defense 1... But in general that tipping point tends to lie somewhere near having twice as much defense as the attacker has attack.

I strongly suspect this won't work out like you want it to. As in if you offered right now to buff our pixies with a couple of points of free 'bonus' defense I'd advice the thread against it because it would make our pixies easier to kill.

Click to shrink...

In the end I must explain it like this: I could make this system something really good, on a trully incredible level of realism... But it would go counter the necessity for the quest. It must be simple, because there will be sometimes dozens of creatures fighting at a time. But, even taking that into consideration, the defense is not a problem the way it's done now, since this isn't about making your monsters immortal, defense is just a facilitator to not die so easily, yet things must still die pretty fast. Yes, it is easier to have creatures kill than survive, but most creatures made to defend will have high life. Also, when you get stronger and everyone does 5 damage or higher on hit, everyone with more than 10 attack/defense, a single point of defense over the attack will mean a bonus to all defense dice. In the end, things are made to die here, and what trully makes you good (or not) for something is your Specials. Let's take your basic pixie here as an example, she can be considered immune to melee attacks, since she flies and can attack from a distance through magic. Thus even though she's fragile and weak, starter enemies can have difficulty bringing her down.

I know you're very worried about the monsters dying and you wasting mana making new ones, but Fae are not a defensive race and thus you must expect your minions to die if a similar power level enemy get the chance to attack. You win by manipulation, tactics and superior firepower, mostly.

 

[veekie]

Basically for fae, don't let your opponent control the tempo. At low levels, hit them at range, retreat and let them chase you into a firing gallery of other fae.
At high, use illusions and other magic to give wild goose chases, take control of enemies to use them to fight each other, etc.

 

[FullNothingness]

In the end I must explain it like this: I could make this system something really good, on a trully incredible level of realism... But it would go counter the necessity for the quest. It must be simple, because there will be sometimes dozens of creatures fighting at a time. But, even taking that into consideration, the defense is not a problem the way it's done now, since this isn't about making your monsters immortal, defense is just a facilitator to not die so easily, yet things must still die pretty fast. Yes, it is easier to have creatures kill than survive, but most creatures made to defend will have high life. Also, when you get stronger and everyone does 5 damage or higher on hit, everyone with more than 10 attack/defense, a single point of defense over the attack will mean a bonus to all defense dice. In the end, things are made to die here, and what trully makes you good (or not) for something is your Specials. Let's take your basic pixie here as an example, she can be considered immune to melee attacks, since she flies and can attack from a distance through magic. Thus even though she's fragile and weak, starter enemies can have difficulty bringing her down.

I know you're very worried about the monsters dying and you wasting mana making new ones, but Fae are not a defensive race and thus you must expect your minions to die if a similar power level enemy get the chance to attack. You win by manipulation, tactics and superior firepower, mostly.

Click to shrink...

Maybe I'm misreading things here but the way I'm reading your combat rules if a high attack monster attacks a defense 1 monster they always only roll one die (with a substantial bonus but still only one). Which means they can always only score one hit. This tends to make having low defense statistically desirable. As in low defense tends to help keep your monsters alive far more than them having high defense does.

My concern isn't that our pixies are underpowered. I'm worried they are overpowered.

 

[DarkKing98]

superior firepower,

Click to shrink...

Firepower you say?

MWAHAHAHAHAHA!

 

[Metrux]

Maybe I'm misreading things here but the way I'm reading your combat rules if a high attack monster attacks a defense 1 monster they always only roll one die (with a substantial bonus but still only one). Which means they can always only score one hit. This tends to make having low defense statistically desirable. As in low defense tends to help keep your monsters alive far more than them having high defense does.

My concern isn't that our pixies are underpowered. I'm worried they are overpowered.

Click to shrink...

In a pure and simple attack x defense? Maybe yes. But it's less and less a pure stat competition as you go higher, more and more the Specials make a diference, as in, your Fae high level would never give a slap or a punch or a kick, it will use spells, charm, possession and alike. Even the Skeleton that rely more on physical prowess won't have a simple high attack, they will have enchanted gear and corrosive miasma, thus having a low defense won't make you receive less damage. Besides, Defensive Skills rely on your Defenses, so it can become easily detrimental in higher levels a smaller defense. Just as a heads up, a single level one skeleton with a basic sword could OHKO a pixie if hit, so I really don't believe this "overpower" of low defense will be high as you're thinking.

 

[FullNothingness]

In a pure and simple attack x defense? Maybe yes. But it's less and less a pure stat competition as you go higher, more and more the Specials make a diference, as in, your Fae high level would never give a slap or a punch or a kick, it will use spells, charm, possession and alike. Even the Skeleton that rely more on physical prowess won't have a simple high attack, they will have enchanted gear and corrosive miasma, thus having a low defense won't make you receive less damage. Besides, Defensive Skills rely on your Defenses, so it can become easily detrimental in higher levels a smaller defense. Just as a heads up, a single level one skeleton with a basic sword could OHKO a pixie if hit, so I really don't believe this "overpower" of low defense will be high as you're thinking.

Click to shrink...

But defense is supposed to be a good thing to have... Not something to avoid. I get that special abilities might change the playing field later on but the core mechanics should have creatures with more defense be actually better at defending than creatures with barely any defense. Letting low defense limit the amount of dice rolled causes a weird situation that need not exist. If it is changed so that the attacker always rolls dice equal to its attack the problem doesn't happen. And that wouldn't exactly make things much more complicated either. It would probably make attack a slightly more useful stat than defense in a combat where special rules don't apply much but that is far more desirable situation than having very weird incentives with the defense stat.

 

[Metrux]

But defense is supposed to be a good thing to have... Not something to avoid. I get that special abilities might change the playing field later on but the core mechanics should have creatures with more defense be actually better at defending than creatures with barely any defense. Letting low defense limit the amount of dice rolled causes a weird situation that need not exist. If it is changed so that the attacker always rolls dice equal to its attack the problem doesn't happen. And that wouldn't exactly make things much more complicated either. It would probably make attack a slightly more useful stat than defense in a combat where special rules don't apply much but that is far more desirable situation than having very weird incentives with the defense stat.

Click to shrink...

Look, you clearly don't likke the system, and this is partly my fault as QM, but just doing as you say will change alot of the rules you players still don't know about. Since it seems faulty, I'll take a look and see if I can make it better, after all we didn't even have a fight yet...

 

[FullNothingness]

Look, you clearly don't likke the system, and this is partly my fault as QM, but just doing as you say will change alot of the rules you players still don't know about. Since it seems faulty, I'll take a look and see if I can make it better, after all we didn't even have a fight yet...

Click to shrink...

No, I rather like the system as you've written it thus far. It is simple enough to use while still leaving some variety of options between different units. I'm bringing up the problem with defense scaling weirdly because from what I've seen so far that is the only real problem it has. Of course there are likely at least some mechanics as of yet not covered. For example it could use some rules for many on one combat situations since that is not unlikely to happen right now.

And I bring this up now exactly because we haven't had a fight yet. Changing the combat rules mid-quest is a bit messy and confusing, doing it now is easier IMO.

 

[Mr.rodent]

and DONT listen to anyone who tries to tell us otherwise! they don't know what its like being a dungeon...assholes.

Click to shrink...

Yeah, I'm gonna have to ask you to apologize for calling me an asshole intentionally or not. This isn't that fucking important where you have to be rude it's discussion and we don't know anything about the world building gm has done, so calm down with your bloodthirsty shit already it's becoming weird.

If you want to discuss why I feel the way I do then fine here are some points I believe are worth noting moving forward.


1- I never stated we should be pacifist , nor that we should lay down and die. Again we know nothing of the world yet but thankfully according to GM there shouldn't be any people to worry about, yet. Mostly monsters/wildlife which will be a boon when considering how to make traps.

2- We are an existence that grows stronger simply by staying alive. Hence more time=more mana production. If we don't have to be worried about constantly being smashed that gives us some leeway on how to both build, expand, and plan out our dungeon without constant death looming.

3- we have very little influence if none on the outside world, we cannot factor in rival kingdoms, bandit groups, hostile monsters , and other negative elements in our surrounding area. Having some group/faction whether they be standard human village or some sentient monsters/race that is either sympathetic or allied to our cause would be an immense boon. It allows us to get more info on the outside world , gives us access to possible recourses that we otherwise could not gain on our own. And provides a nice shield to a layer on the outside that we can't fortify.

4- Killing hostile adventures who seek to harm us is Fine. No one is arguing that. However, when we start trying to kill every single adventurer or mortal that enters our lair then that is when we hit the stupid button. You run into the problem that if there are any survivors in the group then they will most likely bear a grudge. Thus making them a hostile entity that can grow stronger or find someone stronger in the outside world (which we have no influence) who can come and murder rape us.

Secondly, the more dangerous we are, the less people that will willingly come into out dungeon. That might be fine for point 1 of power growth (time=mana) but then it significantly hampers 2 other sources (death=mana)(time spent inside =mana)

And so while we should definitely be challenging , we should try to avoid being too deadly. As death=grudges , death= reputation hit , death=less people.

Are goals should be how we can maximize mana intake while reducing overall threat to our existence , gaining outside influence, and knowledge.

I have more ideas and points but already this is becoming extremely long and if anyone wants to discuss more I'm open to it

 

[san]

4- Killing hostile adventures who seek to harm us is Fine. No one is arguing that. However, when we start trying to kill every single adventurer or mortal that enters our lair then that is when we hit the stupid button. You run into the problem that if there are any survivors in the group then they will most likely bear a grudge. Thus making them a hostile entity that can grow stronger or find someone stronger in the outside world (which we have no influence) who can come and murder rape us.

Click to shrink...

ok this is just STUPID with capital letters.

1) how would you know if they mean to harm you BEFORE they are about to kill you? answer... you can't.

2) that is assuming we leave survivors, and why would people bear a grudge about us defending ourselves given that is the literal PURPOSE of a dungeon.

3) people are going to try and murder us no matter what all we can do is grow stronger faster to prevent this.

 

[FullNothingness]

Yeah, I'm gonna have to ask you to apologize for calling me an asshole intentionally or not. This isn't that fucking important where you have to be rude it's discussion and we don't know anything about the world building gm has done, so calm down with your bloodthirsty shit already it's becoming weird.

If you want to discuss why I feel the way I do then fine here are some points I believe are worth noting moving forward.


1- I never stated we should be pacifist , nor that we should lay down and die. Again we know nothing of the world yet but thankfully according to GM there shouldn't be any people to worry about, yet. Mostly monsters/wildlife which will be a boon when considering how to make traps.

2- We are an existence that grows stronger simply by staying alive. Hence more time=more mana production. If we don't have to be worried about constantly being smashed that gives us some leeway on how to both build, expand, and plan out our dungeon without constant death looming.

3- we have very little influence if none on the outside world, we cannot factor in rival kingdoms, bandit groups, hostile monsters , and other negative elements in our surrounding area. Having some group/faction whether they be standard human village or some sentient monsters/race that is either sympathetic or allied to our cause would be an immense boon. It allows us to get more info on the outside world , gives us access to possible recourses that we otherwise could not gain on our own. And provides a nice shield to a layer on the outside that we can't fortify.

4- Killing hostile adventures who seek to harm us is Fine. No one is arguing that. However, when we start trying to kill every single adventurer or mortal that enters our lair then that is when we hit the stupid button. You run into the problem that if there are any survivors in the group then they will most likely bear a grudge. Thus making them a hostile entity that can grow stronger or find someone stronger in the outside world (which we have no influence) who can come and murder rape us.

Secondly, the more dangerous we are, the less people that will willingly come into out dungeon. That might be fine for point 1 of power growth (time=mana) but then it significantly hampers 2 other sources (death=mana)(time spent inside =mana)

And so while we should definitely be challenging , we should try to avoid being too deadly. As death=grudges , death= reputation hit , death=less people.

Are goals should be how we can maximize mana intake while reducing overall threat to our existence , gaining outside influence, and knowledge.

I have more ideas and points but already this is becoming extremely long and if anyone wants to discuss more I'm open to it

Click to shrink...

Look, no matter how you cut it if you want to gain mana from killing people you will be killing people... If that is going to make us enemies then we better have our defenses ready and effective. While I get that building a dungeon up more along the lines of a violent theme park is in genre when coming at it from the other side but from our perspective it doesn't make much sense. If someone comes in here to kill our minions, take our stuff and maybe even kill us we should kill or capture them efficiently. Not waste resources to make it fun and interesting for them. Every minion we lose does costs us mana and presumably traps do too. Setting up a classic dungeon experience tm​ is not exactly beneficial for us.