Voting is open
[X][DOCTRINE] Retain Territory Defense Doctrine. Ultimately, Virmire remains a world with its back against the wall, and any offensives you make must be made only once you are sure of your position. Turtle up, and turtle harder. Make your space a brick wall, against which the Rachni might break themselves. You will serve the larger struggle with the forces the Rachni must devote to bottling you up. Will not cost additional resources to implement.

As this is the most contested vote, and the most important to me.

I just don't want to trigger that much Rachni aggro, we aren't ready for it. Knowing nothing about the other war fronts, we simply do want we can to ensure our own survival. It'll still be a problem for them to worry about, but not so much that they pull out their real fleets. I am totally up for starting Raids later, especially if we find out the other guys are starting to push at the same time.
 
[X][DOCTRINE] Retain Territory Defense Doctrine. Ultimately, Virmire remains a world with its back against the wall, and any offensives you make must be made only once you are sure of your position. Turtle up, and turtle harder. Make your space a brick wall, against which the Rachni might break themselves. You will serve the larger struggle with the forces the Rachni must devote to bottling you up. Will not cost additional resources to implement.

I've missed most of the arguments here, so I might have missed good arguments, but I don't see how attracting more agro is a good idea.
 
[X][DOCTRINE] Adopt Raiding Doctrine. Virmire faces a situation outside the planning of conventional military thinkers, and thus it is only fitting that you adopt a doctrine designed by Virmireans. You cannot hope to face the Rachni in the open once they truly turn their focus to you. Instead focus on slipping through their lines and striking at their rear, wreaking havoc and forcing them to split their focus a thousand ways. The chaos you leave in your wake will be your contribution to the struggle.

Ultimately, I just see this as far more unique and interesting to explore than being so reactive and defensive. It may be risky or even suboptimal, but daring raids by our unique innovation to hamstring the juggernaut we face is far more fascinating and intriguing than cowering behind our relays and waiting for them to bleed themselves on our positions.

And as a general rule, I find more proactive endeavors more appealing than reactive when it comes to quests, and I dare say that's not unique to me.

At the end of the day, getting to try our hand at guerre de course and raids in a way literally no one else in the setting has really explored is undeniably cooler than defensive posturing 2: now with strategic depth.
 
[X][FLEET] Many Fleets. Smaller fleets will struggle to address determined resistance and force you to bring in reinforcements from other fleets, but can be produced in greater numbers, allowing you to more reliably cover ground.
[X][DOCTRINE] Adopt Raiding Doctrine. Virmire faces a situation outside the planning of conventional military thinkers, and thus it is only fitting that you adopt a doctrine designed by Virmireans. You cannot hope to face the Rachni in the open once they truly turn their focus to you. Instead focus on slipping through their lines and striking at their rear, wreaking havoc and forcing them to split their focus a thousand ways. The chaos you leave in your wake will be your contribution to the struggle.
[X][MARINES] Grant Tannuvael's request. Now that the fight is moving beyond your space, there is a need for an elite, navy-integrated ground force responsible for void-borne operations. Will require an eventual fleet-wide refit.
 
One thing to remember is that the rachni are already facing Territory Defense doctrine in the citadel front, and Fleet battle doctrine in the Batarian front. The terminus front as always is a clusterfuck to guess, put probably a hodgepodge of warlords and mercs, and the very intriguing posibilities of butterflying away the krogan if we manage to establish a corridor and export them, but eh...

Raiding doctrine would be a different doctrine they have to adapt to further fucking up their standard operating procedure at least fleet wise.

Ground support would of course imho be the best as raiding doctrine may have some similarity to what the terminus might come up with, should they have the BC, but they probably are pulling a space defensive guerrilla war, due to the lack of it.

However diverging from citadel standard is not only beneficial in degrading the standard responds of the rachni to our style of combat but is also a way to actively prevent them from being able to organize a full fleet from hitting us due to a lack of proper support network as it got blow to hekk by raiders.

Sadly marines won't get expanded to full capability but at least a doctrine should be chosen that is not attempting to replicate what the citadel territories are doing just with less of everything to do it against the same opponent, who we know said tactics were not victorious against!
 
Okay, @Karugus convinced me. Raiding and being proactive is just more fun to play.

[X][FLEET] Many Fleets. Smaller fleets will struggle to address determined resistance and force you to bring in reinforcements from other fleets, but can be produced in greater numbers, allowing you to more reliably cover ground.
[X][DOCTRINE] Adopt Raiding Doctrine. Virmire faces a situation outside the planning of conventional military thinkers, and thus it is only fitting that you adopt a doctrine designed by Virmireans. You cannot hope to face the Rachni in the open once they truly turn their focus to you. Instead focus on slipping through their lines and striking at their rear, wreaking havoc and forcing them to split their focus a thousand ways. The chaos you leave in your wake will be your contribution to the struggle.
[X][MARINES] Grant Tannuvael's request. Now that the fight is moving beyond your space, there is a need for an elite, navy-integrated ground force responsible for void-borne operations. Will require an eventual fleet-wide refit.
 
[X][FLEET] Many Fleets. Smaller fleets will struggle to address determined resistance and force you to bring in reinforcements from other fleets, but can be produced in greater numbers, allowing you to more reliably cover ground.
[X][DOCTRINE] Adopt Raiding Doctrine. Virmire faces a situation outside the planning of conventional military thinkers, and thus it is only fitting that you adopt a doctrine designed by Virmireans. You cannot hope to face the Rachni in the open once they truly turn their focus to you. Instead focus on slipping through their lines and striking at their rear, wreaking havoc and forcing them to split their focus a thousand ways. The chaos you leave in your wake will be your contribution to the struggle.
[X][MARINES] Grant Tannuvael's request. Now that the fight is moving beyond your space, there is a need for an elite, navy-integrated ground force responsible for void-borne operations. Will require an eventual fleet-wide refit.
 
Raiding and being proactive is just more fun to play

Actually, I'd argue that territory defense is better at being proactive.

Remember, we're dealing with a certain level of abstraction. All the tiny raiding fleets will fall below that level. I mean, we'rd hardly going to vote on every single raid. The things we can control will be the grand sweeping tactical movements. Conquering new relays and stuff like that.

And given that Raid doctrine results in a fleet ill suited for the large fleet battles that that requires, it will reduce our personal initiative. Territory defense meanwhile resukts in a fleet that can take (and hold) relays.
 
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[X][DOCTRINE] Adopt Raiding Doctrine. Virmire faces a situation outside the planning of conventional military thinkers, and thus it is only fitting that you adopt a doctrine designed by Virmireans. You cannot hope to face the Rachni in the open once they truly turn their focus to you. Instead focus on slipping through their lines and striking at their rear, wreaking havoc and forcing them to split their focus a thousand ways. The chaos you leave in your wake will be your contribution to the struggle.

Breaking lurk because this is a close vote and...well, more or less what Karugus said honestly.
Actually, I'd argue that territory defense is better at being proactive.

Remember, we're dealing with a certain level of abstraction. All the tiny raiding fleets will fall below that level. I mean, we'rd hardly going to vote on every single raid. The things we can control will be the grand sweeping tactical movements. Conquering new relays and stuff like that.

And given that Raid doctrine results in a fleet ill suited for the large fleet battles that that requires, it will reduce our personal initiative. Territory defense meanwhile resukts in a fleet that can take (and hold) relays.

Eh. Effects on player agency are debatable but it's certainly a more proactive strategy from a narrative standpoint.
 
[X][FLEET] Many Fleets. Smaller fleets will struggle to address determined resistance and force you to bring in reinforcements from other fleets, but can be produced in greater numbers, allowing you to more reliably cover ground.
[X][DOCTRINE] Adopt Raiding Doctrine. Virmire faces a situation outside the planning of conventional military thinkers, and thus it is only fitting that you adopt a doctrine designed by Virmireans. You cannot hope to face the Rachni in the open once they truly turn their focus to you. Instead focus on slipping through their lines and striking at their rear, wreaking havoc and forcing them to split their focus a thousand ways. The chaos you leave in your wake will be your contribution to the struggle.
[X][MARINES] Grant Tannuvael's request. Now that the fight is moving beyond your space, there is a need for an elite, navy-integrated ground force responsible for void-borne operations. Will require an eventual fleet-wide refit.

Honestly, I'm fine with Raiding or Turtling, but between the two I'm more interested in raiding, as it'll be more aggressive. Dangerous, sure, but I'm fine with that.

It'll also make good use of the battlecruisers we've been using to great effect. I feel like, considering the foundation we have for it, it's a good idea. We have battlecruisers, we've used battlecruisers, and it's been very effective. Pursuing a path that emphasizes their use in a smart and measured manner appeals to more. More than dumping the class and investing into one that, while proven in history, is something that we've never built, designed, or used.

That's really the major sticking point for me and Raiding Doctrine over the Turtling one.
 
Ultimately, I just see this as far more unique and interesting to explore than being so reactive and defensive. It may be risky or even suboptimal, but daring raids by our unique innovation to hamstring the juggernaut we face is far more fascinating and intriguing than cowering behind our relays and waiting for them to bleed themselves on our positions.

This vote is about fleet design and doctrine. Not about tactical decisions.
We can and may still choose to employ deep strikes as the opportunity turns up.
But that is quite different from designing our entire navy to have a glass jaw.

And frankly, the fun argument makes no sense.
The Rachni have been hitting us since Turn 3. We've not exactly been sitting back.

At the end of the day, getting to try our hand at guerre de course and raids in a way literally no one else in the setting has really explored is undeniably cooler than defensive posturing 2: now with strategic depth.
No dreads. No cruisers.
Just BCs and light cruisers, against an enemy demonstrably capable of spamming dreadnoughts.
In a quest where we own only one major star system.

As a reminder, BCs were made to kill cruisers, so that cruisers could kill dreads.
They are not designed as dreadnought killers.
So if you adopt a doctrine that relies on expensive BCs and deemphasizes cruisers, do it in the full awareness that you are courting Trouble.

Okay, @Karugus convinced me. Raiding and being proactive is just more fun to play.
No it isn't.
When your base is insecure, you tend to leave more forces behind to make sure you don't lose your economy.
It's simple prudence.

The GM is scrupulously fair, but I don't want to rely on GM generosity to survive bad rolls.
I remember what happened during our last battle, when we started rolling poorly after a fantastic start. If we weren't set up to survive, that would have been painful as fuck.
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Nov 6, 2017 at 3:00 AM, finished with 149 posts and 69 votes.

Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Nov 6, 2017 at 9:32 AM, finished with 176 posts and 73 votes.
 
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Except raiding tactics has a simple, massive flaw.

That being the fact that all traffic has to travel through the relays. These are heavily reinforced and ideal natural choke point. The Rachni are not ignorant of that, and have reinforced those relays. And, as we can see from our own defense, such relay defenses are tremendously effective.

The solution the GM offered for that was to send a fleet through to distract the defending force, which allows the raiders to get through. Then, when they're scheduled to return, send another fleet through to distract the guards again.

So, to recap. Raiding doctrine involves 2 suicide attacks (because really, an understrength fleet engaging guards to distract them is going to a one way trip). Then, if there's any sheduling issue, any mechanical issue or battle damage delaying the fleet, we loose the raiding fleet.

I simply don't like the implications of that.
 
Now, how much time (And is it technically feasible?) would it take for our ships to get to Phoenix Massing cluster by means of ship-based FTL?
 
Now, how much time (And is it technically feasible?) would it take for our ships to get to Phoenix Massing cluster by means of ship-based FTL?

I'm going to say it's impossible. Mass Effect FTL is strictly limited in range, generating a charge which needs to be discharged in a suitable planet or spacestation. Without constructing/mapping out an extensive supply network, you're straight out of luck.

According to the wiki, human FTL in 2165 can reach 50 c. The Galaxy is roughly 20 000 lightyears in diameter, so my guess would be that you'd get there in a few decades.
 
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I'm going to say it's impossible. Mass Effect FTL is strictly limited in range, generating a charge which needs to be discharged in a suitable planet or spacestation. Without constructing/mapping out an extensive supply network, you're straight out of luck.

According to the wiki, human FTL in 2165 can reach 50 c. The Galaxy is roughly 20 000 lightyears in diameter, so my guess would be that you'd get there in a few decades.
I thought that as long as you leave FTL to discharge the drive core the only limiting factor is the speed of ship based FTL,which is far inferior to the mass relays.
That is the only thing that makes the ship based FTL impractical over vast distances, and so it's use is limited to stars located in clusters, like sentry omega.
 
Now, how much time (And is it technically feasible?) would it take for our ships to get to Phoenix Massing cluster by means of ship-based FTL?
Let me put it this way:
The Rachni have been assaulting our Relay instead of sneaking a bunch of ships around by ship FTL.
If ship FTL was remotely practical, they would have killed us before we could rebuild our navy.
 
This vote is about fleet design and doctrine. Not about tactical decisions.
We can and may still choose to employ deep strikes as the opportunity turns up.
But that is quite different from designing our entire navy to have a glass jaw.

And frankly, the fun argument makes no sense.
The Rachni have been hitting us since Turn 3. We've not exactly been sitting back.


No dreads. No cruisers.
Just BCs and light cruisers, against an enemy demonstrably capable of spamming dreadnoughts.
In a quest where we own only one major star system.

As a reminder, BCs were made to kill cruisers, so that cruisers could kill dreads.
They are not designed as dreadnought killers.
So if you adopt a doctrine that relies on expensive BCs and deemphasizes cruisers, do it in the full awareness that you are courting Trouble.

No it isn't.
When your base is insecure, you tend to leave more forces behind to make sure you don't lose your economy.
It's simple prudence.

The GM is scrupulously fair, but I don't want to rely on GM generosity to survive bad rolls.
I remember what happened during our last battle, when we started rolling poorly after a fantastic start. If we weren't set up to survive, that would have been painful as fuck.
It's almost like Guerre De Course, was designed around a much weaker navy gaining the capacity to savage stronger navies. The Rachni's strength here is a mark in favor of raiding not against.

Let's examine the facts: Rachni ships are poor in terms of quality, rachni doctrine is not exceptionally advanced, Rachni have a massive material advantage, rachni have relatively long logistics tails to actually get to us considering how quickly they're remnants in this cluster are running on fumes.

This is pretty much absolutely the best possible context to explore and test a raiding strategy. A foe we can generally guarantee local superiority over, who's methods require a large logistical footprint and who is liable to be at the long end of a supply chain to campaign against us, and has minimal context or doctrine against a raiding campaign.

It's beyond fucking idiotic to say 'they can spam dreads at us, of course we can't afford to to schrimp on our dreads'

Trying to seize local capital ship superiority is idiotic, all those cheap but plentiful ships require more fuel, more supplies, more parts, more berths, more everything vulnerable to raiders- you are literally talking about all the vulnerabilities to the doctrine I favor and declaring it some mark against.

I'm going to spell this out before you scream more and more about Dreads countering BCs- Raiding won't pit BCs against Dreads. It'll attack their basing, their fuel depots, their pocket squadrons and laugh as it merrily drops shots from across a system to kill orbitals and infrastructure before FTLing away before retaliation can arrive.

The point of raiding, especially here is that our raiders can slaughter anything but a Dread, but dreads are always going to be relatively rare so raiders can simply target wherever dreads aren't and lead them on chases. They have to respond to raiding or soon enough they can't actually deploy those massive, resource intensive war machines, they need to deploy to counter raiders. It's a catch 22 that leverages multiple smaller fleets in redibly well, providing so many relatively minor axises of attack that you can deploy enough dreads to effectively cover them all.

And a Rachni dread chasing one of our BCs is a bad bet if it's not careful.

There is no better time for raiding than against someone with superior tonnage, long logistics, inferior quality and doctrine, and other commitments- considering raiders are all about disproportionate commitments.
 
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[X][FLEET] Many Fleets. Smaller fleets will struggle to address determined resistance and force you to bring in reinforcements from other fleets, but can be produced in greater numbers, allowing you to more reliably cover ground.
[X][DOCTRINE] Retain Territory Defense Doctrine. Ultimately, Virmire remains a world with its back against the wall, and any offensives you make must be made only once you are sure of your position. Turtle up, and turtle harder. Make your space a brick wall, against which the Rachni might break themselves. You will serve the larger struggle with the forces the Rachni must devote to bottling you up. Will not cost additional resources to implement.
[X][MARINES] Grant Tannuvael's request. Now that the fight is moving beyond your space, there is a need for an elite, navy-integrated ground force responsible for void-borne operations. Will require an eventual fleet-wide refit.
 
The problem is, any raid force would use one of our fleets. Usage of relays would most likely force that fleet to fight equal or superior Rachni forces (They can adopt our strategy of bottlenecking Relays with rather simple defense platforms in the very least) at least twice, resulting in serious casualties at best (Including capitals - battlecruisers are not as armored as dreadnoughts, and would fold even faster).
And we have only two fleets as of right now. We probably can handle loss of one or two battlecruisers, but if it's coupled with effective destruction of respective fleet... It would be costly in the immediate future. Several years after, when we form third fleet, expand production and clean up & fortify further Attican Beta (Where, as of right now, there are quite a bit of Rachni running on fumes - on which we can test the proposals of our admirals without adopting doctrine navy-wide), raiding doctrine would be go-to one.

Also, are there any designs suitable specifically to Relay clearing?
 
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[X][FLEET] Many Fleets. Smaller fleets will struggle to address determined resistance and force you to bring in reinforcements from other fleets, but can be produced in greater numbers, allowing you to more reliably cover ground.
[X][DOCTRINE] Retain Territory Defense Doctrine. Ultimately, Virmire remains a world with its back against the wall, and any offensives you make must be made only once you are sure of your position. Turtle up, and turtle harder. Make your space a brick wall, against which the Rachni might break themselves. You will serve the larger struggle with the forces the Rachni must devote to bottling you up. Will not cost additional resources to implement.
[X][MARINES] Grant Tannuvael's request. Now that the fight is moving beyond your space, there is a need for an elite, navy-integrated ground force responsible for void-borne operations. Will require an eventual fleet-wide refit.

We need to be on the defensive and build up first before trying our hand at raiding.
 
I'm going to spell this out before you scream more and more about Dreads countering BCs- Raiding won't pit BCs against Dreads. It'll attack their basing, their fuel depots, their pocket squadrons and laugh as it merrily drops shots from across a system to kill orbitals and infrastructure before FTLing away before retaliation can arrive.

The obvious problem that you're ignoring is that raids will put dreads against BC's. All raids will need to pass through relays, and those relays will be guarded. The enemy doesn't need to chase our raiders around. They can simply lock down the relays with a few, strong taskforces.

In addition, any enemy counteroffensive will also involve Dreads, and our forces can not retreat then.

Edit : On a side note, Territory defense doctrine does raids too.

You are describing Massalian Doctrine. Holding key choke points with strong fleets while dispatching small detachments on raids and patrols is the whole core of the thing. Raiding/scouting with flotillas is Massalian's passive; that is, what it does in absence of specific assignments. Thus why 2nd has had that as their passive. It does this so that you're always informed of where the enemy may next strike. Other doctrines have other passives. Mahakian conducts scouting runs with orders not to engage hostiles and passively redeploys in order to sucker the enemy into attacking where you're strongest. Raiding passively raids easy targets. Ground support passively starts working its way through the planetary invasion checklist at a relaxed pace.

The difference is that territory defense prioritizes defense over raids, and uses flotillas to raid. That ensures they raid sensibly, and now what amounts to a suicide attack.
 
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I should be asleep.
It's almost like Guerre De Course, was designed around a much weaker navy gaining the capacity to savage stronger navies. The Rachni's strength here is a mark in favor of raiding not against.
Guerre De Course relies, and has always relied on not having fixed, accessible, known centers of gravity that said stronger navies can retaliate against.
The Rachni know damn well where to find our bases.
Your commerce raider force is going to have Issues when they turn up with a dozen dreadnought doorknockers and a support fleet to match

Let's examine the facts: Rachni ships are poor in terms of quality, rachni doctrine is not exceptionally advanced, Rachni have a massive material advantage, rachni have relatively long logistics tails to actually get to us considering how quickly they're remnants in this cluster are running on fumes.
All of this is wrong.
The Rachni are an acknowledged Tier 1 polity, as confirmed by the GM.
That means that there is no significant technological gap between it and the Citadel, and that what there is is compensated for by their industrial capacity.

Rachni ships are not poor in terms of quality; they leverage different things.
They are less-casualty shy than we are, and replace crew members faster and so they build accordingly, like not bothering with kinetic barriers on small ships, which they can mass-produce. This comes with certain advantages, like reduced cost, and a smaller power budget.

Rachni doctrine OTOH is very goddamn good. It has to be.
They didn't kick the Citadel out of this region by counting bottlecaps.

Rachni logistics are no worse than ours are, and is possibly better.
They are, and have been, prosecuting an interstellar war on at least three fronts for more than three decades, and their opponents are on the defensive.
Said opponents include 2 Tier 1 nations and multiple Tier 2 nations.

Rachni have organic FTLcomm.
This gives them a logistical advantage in organizing intracluster supply lines, and a tactical advantage in maneuvering combat formations in a system.
AND early warning on raiders.

Again, I will point out that we've seen the results of what happens when you mistime assaults.
It happened to us the first time we tried to take Hercules; we lost the entirety of First Fleet, much of Second Fleet, and it was the proximate cause of our character's coup d'etat.
Adhoc vote count started by uju32 on Nov 6, 2017 at 12:35 PM, finished with 5689 posts and 73 votes.
 
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I'm fine with both turtling and raiding (leaning to raiding), but I don't understand why majority wants to turtle with many fleets. We don't have that many points to defend, do we? Raiding with many fleets is understandable - even one assault as @PoptartProdigy described it requires at least two fleets and we can raid in several directions at once, but many fleets defense seems strange to me.
 
I'm fine with both turtling and raiding (leaning to raiding), but I don't understand why majority wants to turtle with many fleets. We don't have that many points to defend, do we? Raiding with many fleets is understandable - even one assault as @PoptartProdigy described it requires at least two fleets and we can raid in several directions at once, but many fleets defense seems strange to me.

Right now we have 2 fleets, so for now we are going to turtle up, clean up Attican Beta and build up navy to the point of having some more fleets.
Then, having significantly more ships, we will probably shift to Raiding doctrine and/or Fleet battle, depending on circumstances; At that point, having more fleets would be better.
And in any case Rachni fleets are bigger, so it's better to start developing inter-fleet coordination early.
 
It's almost like Guerre De Course, was designed around a much weaker navy gaining the capacity to savage stronger navies. The Rachni's strength here is a mark in favor of raiding not against.
Historically, the guerre de course tactics did little more than prolong wars, and tended to create a long string of indecisive minor defeats for the nation practicing them, unless the opposing navy was doing something very wrong. And that was on the high seas, in situations where the raiders didn't all have to pass through narrow, easily fortified relay networks to reach their targets.

Let's examine the facts: Rachni ships are poor in terms of quality, rachni doctrine is not exceptionally advanced, Rachni have a massive material advantage, rachni have relatively long logistics tails to actually get to us considering how quickly they're remnants in this cluster are running on fumes.

This is pretty much absolutely the best possible context to explore and test a raiding strategy. A foe we can generally guarantee local superiority over, who's methods require a large logistical footprint and who is liable to be at the long end of a supply chain to campaign against us, and has minimal context or doctrine against a raiding campaign.
In this cluster, we have a target so good for raiding operations that I'm actually worried that we might learn the wrong lessons from trying them against this opponent- sort of like how the IJN learned the wrong lessons about its own ability to auto-win battles from the early phase of the Pacific War.

The point of raiding, especially here is that our raiders can slaughter anything but a Dread, but dreads are always going to be relatively rare so raiders can simply target wherever dreads aren't and lead them on chases. They have to respond to raiding or soon enough they can't actually deploy those massive, resource intensive war machines, they need to deploy to counter raiders. It's a catch 22 that leverages multiple smaller fleets in redibly well, providing so many relatively minor axises of attack that you can deploy enough dreads to effectively cover them all.
The biggest problem here is dealing with relay systems. Competently organized raiding doctrine would seem very obviously good... if not for relays.
 
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