Terminus Quest: A CKII Mass Effect Quest

VOTE

[X][FLEET] Many Fleets. Smaller fleets will struggle to address determined resistance and force you to bring in reinforcements from other fleets, but can be produced in greater numbers, allowing you to more reliably cover ground.
[X][DOCTRINE] Retain Territory Defense Doctrine. Ultimately, Virmire remains a world with its back against the wall, and any offensives you make must be made only once you are sure of your position. Turtle up, and turtle harder. Make your space a brick wall, against which the Rachni might break themselves. You will serve the larger struggle with the forces the Rachni must devote to bottling you up. Will not cost additional resources to implement.
[X][MARINES] Grant Tannuvael's request. Now that the fight is moving beyond your space, there is a need for an elite, navy-integrated ground force responsible for void-borne operations. Will require an eventual fleet-wide refit.


I missed most of the argument yesterday. But I have to stand with @Kaze on this.

Our strategic imperatives are this:
-Defend the homeworlds : Territory Defense
-Reinforce and increase navy: Many Fleets
-Regain contact with the Citadel/other allies

Attacking the Rachni is peripheral to those concerns.

Territory Defense satisfies the defend the homeworld defense requirements, by making it our first and overriding directive.
Many Fleets allows us flexibility to reinforce losses and to grow the navy as necessary.
Granting Tannuvael's request gives us a major force for taking control of Rachni installations and staging commando operations for intelligence.

Raiding Doctrine is a terrible idea as things stand.

Any plan that suggests that we build fewer heavy vessels against an enemy who can literally spam dreadnoughts is an invitation to getting shanked by a set of bad rolls in combination with a couple capitals. We do not have the technological advantage necessary to kite Rachni fleets with any regularity.
Let alone doing so through Relay defenses.

And we REALLY don't want Rachni Attention to hit 100 while we are still a Tier 3 nation-state.

I will remind people that the original First Fleet got murdered by a pair of dreadnoughts with fleet support when they got caught behind a relay, and we only barely managed to get Second Fleet out.

Furthermore, ME space is composed of chokepoints; raiding involves getting past defended relays.
If we managed to bottle and bleed the Rachni at our Mass Relay long enough to build enough forces to throw a hammer at THEIR defenses, I don't want to imagine what happens when we inevitably hit a low roll against a high Martial Rachni commander.

And that doesn't include the political repercussions for when we inevitably lose a raiding fleet at a time the political opposition is feeling secure enough to attempt to remove or weaken us.

TL;DR
Raiding Doctrine involves spamming light cruisers and frigates and building fewer heavy cruisers, battlecruisers and dreadnoughts.
It takes 3 heavy cruisers to kill a dreadnought.
The Rachni were planning to throw THREE DREADNOUGHTS at us before we proved ourselves to be a major threat.

Building fewer heavy ships is a Bad Plan.

[X] uju32

The problem with focusing on the defence is that the Rachni can bulid faster than us and literally just bulid up a fleet which we can do nothing against no mater what. Really to me the best thing we can do is make sure there is no place for the Rachni to restock and base from within multiple clusters.

While Building fewer heavy ship is bad so is focusing on them since the Rachni will always be better than us at that

Inserted tally

Goi said:

The problem with focusing on the defence is that the Rachni can bulid faster than us and literally just bulid up a fleet which we can do nothing against no mater what. Really to me the best thing we can do is make sure there is no place for the Rachni to restock and base from within multiple clusters.

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This is the Rachni territory in brown

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We have access to less than a third of their systems from our location.
None of those are their core systems, and with the exception of the Kepler Verge, all those systems have logistic access to multiple clusters.

Most people who build their military forces around raiding capability do so because the enemy is far away, or because they can afford to take losses.
Neither applies to us.
We can do them damage; they can KILL us.

There is a reason why the Citadel is on the defensive, and it's not because they enjoy having bugs beating at their door.
That is a big reason why it's been warned repeatedly that the Rachni massively out-mass us industrially and economically.
We are not winning a match with them barring some massive breakthrough on the technological or diplomatic frnt, and we do not want them to throw the kinds of fleets at us that they've been throwing at the Citadel.

It is entirely possible for them to lose the greater war and still obliterate Virmire and it's cluster if they divert sufficient effort.
Do not draw more attention than we are immediately capable of handling, or optimize our navy for tasks that ignore strategic realities.

Just the fact that they can throw forces from three or four different clusters at us is more than enough sphincter-clenching.
When they thought we only had cruisers and fortifications, they sent three dreadnoughts. They expended 1 dreadnought just to bleed us around Turn 3.
Respect the threat.

Goi said:

While Building fewer heavy ship is bad so is focusing on them since the Rachni will always be better than us at that

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What we need to be doing is prioritizing home protection.
We have ONE home planet. ONE economic heartland. One set of military shipyards.
I fail to see how Raiding Forces are going to save us when they send two times the number of dreadnoughts they sent last time to knock on our Relay defenses.

It took us a decade to rebuild our navy last time, and that was because they underestimated us. They didn't get close enough to bombard the shipyards or planet, which allowed us to recover. They won't make that mistake again.

[X][FLEET] Large Fleets. Large fleets will be able to secure their zones of responsibility with greater ease, but given the administrative difficulties in spreading them out across multiple clusters, and the inescapable fact that you'll be able to afford fewer, you will be able to cover less ground
[X][DOCTRINE] Adopt Ground Assault Doctrine. Eventually, the fight must come to the Rachni's home worlds. You do not want to lose territory and see the Rachni fully re-establish their presence there within the year. You do not want to spend half your strength watching over blockaded worlds. Your resources are precious enough as it is. Virmire's armies will march to the thunder of mass accelerators, and smash the Rachni wherever they may be found. The wounds you leave will be lasting ones. Your contribution to the war will be the bleeding gashes you tear out of the true heart of the Rachni's strength. Not in and of itself more expensive, but you will need to spend a lot of cash jacking your army and marines way the hell up if you want to succeed here.
[X][MARINES] Completely reform the marines, making them a massive, elite force capable of striking any target from space without army support. Will require immediate production of dedicated vessels and a navy-wide refit

I think I will be switching from raiding doctrine to the ground assault. I know many will laugh, but I do have a good reason.
Consider that the further down the list of option you go the more damage we are willing to do to the rachni effectively in a way and thus the more we have to invest in it.

The way I see it the Assari fortification doctrine and the Batarian decisive battle doctrine are working as a conventional war thus far. But from what we know historically they failed until they get the krogan.

The raiding doctrine is probably my darling and of the majority of the player base due to our BCs and also due to the fact that it would be a Virmire development, however it will record constant application to not only this clusters but the clusters linked to it and without full marine reformation it will not even hope to damage rachni worlds, which are the main cornerstone of the Rachni war machine. With raiders we can constantly blow up any vulnerable space infrastructure and attempt to gridlock the local rachni warmachine, but its detractors are also right, it will be the one doctrine that will make us the most visible to the rachni as a whole by making ourselves as big a nuisance as possible. But in the end just a nuisance. Without the marine reformation I even have doubts about us being a meaningful nuisance beyond the temporary as the worlds below will simply rebuild the infrastructure the next turn or two(with the marines we would probably blow up space launch infrastructure to delay it a extra turn, by upgrading the paratrooper paradigm of the marine to assault force that can hope to do that on its own)

Still to make progress we have to advance. Yes we are a third rate power but the local cluster is poorly staffed fleet wise. This means we have a good opportunity to increase our defensive depth by conquering it. This I belive is not in question with anyone.

Sure the Assari doctrine would better fortify choke points, but we can pump up relay fortification and create relay fleets, and even design new fortifications. And the battle doctrine will have us try and eventually trade metal with a vastly greater industrial power, a contest we will loose.

Ground assault however gets us the option to purge the cluster we entered with a vastly lower cost of life form our armies and marines by directly supporting such efforts and will further free up fleet heavy metal that will have to constantly blockade any rachni world in this cluster that we can not take without these investments, meaning more free ships that can defend or assault relays. It also focuses on heavy cruisers and dreadnoughts for heavy combatants that we can supplement with BCs as second line flying artillery and second line heavy chargers, a most likely considerable tertiary fleet focus that would very much help both the two main ship focus of heavy cruiser and dreadnoughts in fleet combat as constant second liners that will add to the long range duel behind the dreadnoughts and as cruiser killers as the second rank in the heavy cruiser charge. This on the space warfare side of things.

On the ground side of things picking Ground assault with the full marine reformation allows us a quite unique opportunity to pretty much clear this cluster of the rachni, by heavy a focused fleet support on this operation, the marines being the ones to pretty much take on all aspects of planetary assault leaving the army to focus exclusively on the planetary warfare campaigns. This stacks the deck as much as possible and will allow us the very best chance to eliminate all rachni worlds in the cluster.

If we go this route it means that our fleets won't have to constantly leave a a large garrison to contain the rachni worlds we do not invest with the army that pretty much make us suffer from the same requirements if not more as if the cluster was under constant rachni raiding doctrine attention only in reverse because we can not clear this worlds, and while orbital bombardment might wreck those worlds initially, both from what we know of history and starship troopers the bugs just won't quit and die unless we go full exterminatus or send in the troops to clear them out.

So let's fucking clear them out and not need to constantly patrol and bomb the worlds, so once that is done we can position our fleets on the relays and while not following the teritory defense doctrine it would allow us to have the nominal fleet numbers of said doctrine defending the relays that otherwise a good number of our fleet elements would be occupied with policing rachni worlds we have overrun with our fleets.

More over going full ground support, marine reformation and the necessary investments for marines and army would allow us if we manage to link up with the citadel to become a very valuable combatant that they will have to court in order to perform said function for them provided they have not met the krogan yet. In fact we might be able to butterfly it away if we manage to be successful here.

With this in mind I also think it prudent to switch from many fleets to large fleets. Without the defensive, decisive battle or raiding doctrine, we will need to rely on the weigh of numbers to counteract a space focused doctrine when assaulting a relay or defending it (in addition to whatever fortifications we will still emplace). It will also make it far far raised to support the marine assault and the following army campaign by a larger orbital presence and also be able to maintain it should any rachni fleet rally to try and dislodge and spoil the whole effort, a move that would probably spell if not the doom for such a campaign the a major down turn and waste of blood and resources.

Moreover imho this is the most fun option. It could allow us to butterfly away the krogan uplfi and subsequently rebellion and make a massive impact on the citadel if we manage to reach them and provide them our services, with them taking over territory defense while we do the rachni cleanup, wit son financial and political considerations of course.

It also is probably the most badass combination that has a chance of getting us ODSTs, a significant martial culture that we could assume the role of matriarch over, and not just any matriarch but probably one of the defining ones in the is war and lots of fun speess muhreen jokes and references.

STEEL RHAEEN!


Edit: Thank you for the map.

So we need to clear the Attican beta and punch through hades gamma.
Territory defense imho does not work if we want to break through due to our comparatively limited industrial might as we will not be able to afford the ships to blockade rachni worlds. Same for the decisive battle. The raider idea was to paralize rachni adjacent clusters, and make any fleet movement in or towards our area a major nuisance. It is possible and will temporarily be the most successful for the whole war effort since it would given both us and the citadel some breathing room until they garrison everything they need garrisoned with enough ships to manage to see off our raiders.

But at the same time we can not stay on the defensive, as eventually they will manage to mobilize a fleet to see us off, for the very reason we managed to push back as it pretty Much means that there is a open front that just wen active in their back. Which is why I think we need to burn them out of this cluster, so we do not have any rachni at our back and then pull a repeat on a higher difficulty in Hades gama. We do that we have a clear corridor to the citadel through which we can get reinforcements without harrasment and we present them with a masive morale boostas well as presenting a alternative to going krogan, as we exploit our greater success to get a fleet, marine and army doctrine and composition that shows promise to clear the rachni and has a good chance to do so.

With one Large Ground support fleet with marine reformation we could clear and hold attican beta and fortify the three relays while we do so and then once we have a second punch through to hades gama, with the interest to link up with citadel forces and perform a second purge thus forming a clear corridor.

Either way from our results and immediate future, we still have problems that can and WILL break Virmire and it's inhabitants (and yes, I'm worried that Virmireans and even Lystheni {odd right?} won't survive if we mess up). In no particular order:

Military reforms – investment and population and corporation reaction to it
Rachni attacks – we repelled one assault but I fear that was merely a pre-test attack, they're learning and adapting
<->Rachni remnants – Unless we devote 1 action to fully get rid of her, she'll continue to raid/harass us and slowly bleed us dry (remember my wound comparison?)
Corporations – thanks to Kirai, we know what they "want" so we can outplay them with different name Colonial Congress, better get to it.
Kirai – she has ... delivered, and really has helped us but is she positively "ours"?
Lystheni – while neutral, they still act as if it's non-war times, tries to spy and cheat (fear some might even want to sabotage some of our operations. Paranoia or not?), tries not to aid us and still are paranoid. The faster we deal with their trust issues, the better their lives, and ours, will get.

<—>DEBT .... 'nuff said.

still there are pros/cons that we address and analyse, but how our choices here affect our survivability can really be tested in practice in this setting (aka if our choices here aren't the best, QM will show in next updates). So nothing to add.

uju32 said:

This is the Rachni territory in brown
We have access to less than a third of their systems from our location.
None of those are their core systems, and with the exception of the Kepler Verge, all those systems have logistic access to multiple clusters.

Most people who build their military forces around raiding capability do so because the enemy is far away, or because they can afford to take losses.
Neither applies to us.
We can do them damage; they can KILL us.

There is a reason why the Citadel is on the defensive, and it's not because they enjoy having bugs beating at their door.
That is a big reason why it's been warned repeatedly that the Rachni massively out-mass us industrially and economically.
We are not winning a match with them barring some massive breakthrough on the technological or diplomatic frnt, and we do not want them to throw the kinds of fleets at us that they've been throwing at the Citadel.

It is entirely possible for them to lose the greater war and still obliterate Virmire and it's cluster if they divert sufficient effort.
Do not draw more attention than we are immediately capable of handling, or optimize our navy for tasks that ignore strategic realities.

Just the fact that they can throw forces from three or four different clusters at us is more than enough sphincter-clenching.
When they thought we only had cruisers and fortifications, they sent three dreadnoughts. They expended 1 dreadnought just to bleed us around Turn 3.
Respect the threat.


What we need to be doing is prioritizing home protection.
We have ONE home planet. ONE economic heartland. One set of military shipyards.
I fail to see how Raiding Forces are going to save us when they send two times the number of dreadnoughts they sent last time to knock on our Relay defences.

It took us a decade to rebuild our navy last time, and that was because they underestimated us. They didn't get close enough to bombard the shipyards or planet, which allowed us to recover. They won't make that mistake again.

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Yes but the ideal is if they can't resupply on the way to us they have to focus on that instead of crushing us which even if we got nothing but crits from now till they attack if they felt like it we could do nothing but there is a fixed limit they can function from resupply or otherwise they could just ignore the relays entirely and crush us with a surprise attack.

Yes defence is important but quite factually if the Rachni want us dead we are dead and there is nothing we can do. The defence tactic is almost what we have been doing but to quote the description we need to become a bigger threat to them before they attack us.

Sure while the raiding has some risk if we just focus on the defence the Rachni will kill us anyway we need to get them focusing on more things. though Honestly I think the defence and raiding together are best because we need to shore up but we also need to hurt them badly.

the raiding doctrine isn't just attack the Rachni with no thought it damage their ability to even get a fleet to us because they can't resupply.

Also that cut off region where the Rachni retreated to is one of the places we need to focus on and take out first anyway

remulian said:

I think I will be switching from raiding doctrine to the ground assault. I know many will laugh, but I do have a good reason.

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This is also an offensive doctrine, for people who can afford to expend forces. We can't.
The Krogan, the r-breeder hyperaggressive race needed to breed themselves up for two generations before committing to a war with the Rachni.
They ended up planting WMDs in Rachni tunnels and wiping them out rather than fighting them on their homeworlds.

We do not have the physical advantages that the Krogan do; ~50% of our population is SALARIAN and VOLUS.
Which means that batarians and asari would bear the brunt of that fighting, and they both take time to grow and mature. Nor are they comfortable in anything like the variety of environments that Rachni are capable of thriving in.

Furthermore, we lack the maturity of VI and dronetech necessary to simply drop robot soldiers, even assuming we don't get spawn a geth problem.
And finally, Rachni are telepathic.
Ground combat against an enemy that can share realtime tactical data and coordination from one soldier across their entire force is a nightmare.

We cannot afford the physical losses necessary to a ground-focused campaign without severe consequences to our population.
And it behooves me to point out that bleeding away soldiers in some ground campaign is not going to play well politically either.
This isn't Warhammer.

remulian said:

So we need to clear the Attican beta and punch through hades gamma.

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Clear Attican Beta and establish contact with the Citadel, you mean.
We do that by finding another route around the known Relays, or by hacking Rachni comm beacons to piggyback data to the Citadel, or by finding and hooking up with the Quarians.

remulian said:

But at the same time we can not stay on the defensive, as eventually they will manage to mobilize a fleet to see us off, for the very reason we managed to push back as it

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One of the things people forget is the concept of the Fleet In Being.
Just by existing we tie down Rachni forces. They NEED to keep a force to defend against the threat of a Virmirean attack.
They need to expend industrial resources and logistics to prepare for a Virmire assault that might never come.

It would be nice to score offensive victories, and we will be pushing for it.
But our navy needs to be designed around keeping the Republic of Virmire alive first. Being able to hold the line. Offense is a secondary objective.
That's why I'm voting Many Fleets + Territory Defense, so we only send commit fleets to the offensive we can afford to lose without weakening our defenses.

Considering that Ground Support Doctrine pretty much spells out that any teritory we take from the rachni or raid means that we will spend around half our fleets to blockade, I do think that spending the extra cash for army and marines would se us having far greater numbers of ships focused on the relays once that is done, and thus get us a better bang for our buck, per buck I vested as it will allow us a greater concept traction of force as we advance, and imho we must advance. We can not turtle and hope to wait out the war. Virmire was already at the point of being lost, and imho we need the Attican beta to function as a buffer, and the best way to do that is to clear it out completely so should the rachni counterattack they can not easily reestablish their previous presence should we be pushed back. Should wemana e to clear it out we would have twice the number of guns focused soleyon defending the three relays while we bulida second large fleet to punch out and link up with the citadel.



It is also imho the most narratively and gameplay wise satisfying option as we have a clear progress path and a clear way to achieve it instead of simply repeating the same tactics and strategies of the citadel that we pretty much know have failed in providing any kind of decisive conclusion by not being able to clear the rachni out. The more I think about it the more I belive that we have a golden opportunity here to not only manage to link up with the citadel but actually clear a path but also perhaps provide the blueprint to win the war without the krogan.

Attican Beta we have to do on our own and hunt the queen down, and then build our first large fleet and first armies to beeline the three main relays of attican beta and conquer them, fortify the and the engage in the great purge. If we can get it done before the second major rachni reaction( I expect one by the time we have our first large fleet done with doctrine and all) we would then have all guns at the relays unlike with any other doctrine. This then would allow us to build a second large fleet and punch through to hades gama, and beeline for the relay that connects to the batarians. Clnquerand fortify these two while we have the citadel fleets stream in to support us and we have our corridor.

Not contact with the citadel but a full and secure corridor. And the citadel gets the potential alternative to krogans via doctrine that was abandoned and some minor technological innovations out of desperation like the BC and probably one or two new developments with the combo of the doctrine and marine reformation.

Also form a personal perspective we would offer one of the greatest morale host to both Virmire and the galaxy by burning a corridor clear and secure ourselves a place as one of the most influential martial matriarchs once we get to that stage in our life. That a the option to butterfly the krogan away that pretty much avoids the rebellions and thus prevents the second largest war of the citadels altogether.

[X][FLEET] Many Fleets. Smaller fleets will struggle to address determined resistance and force you to bring in reinforcements from other fleets, but can be produced in greater numbers, allowing you to more reliably cover ground.
[X][DOCTRINE] Adopt Raiding Doctrine. Virmire faces a situation outside the planning of conventional military thinkers, and thus it is only fitting that you adopt a doctrine designed by Virmireans. You cannot hope to face the Rachni in the open once they truly turn their focus to you. Instead focus on slipping through their lines and striking at their rear, wreaking havoc and forcing them to split their focus a thousand ways. The chaos you leave in your wake will be your contribution to the struggle.
[X][MARINES] Grant Tannuvael's request. Now that the fight is moving beyond your space, there is a need for an elite, navy-integrated ground force responsible for void-borne operations. Will require an eventual fleet-wide refit.

uju32 said:

This is also an offensive doctrine, for people who can afford to expend forces. We can't.
The Krogan, the r-breeder hyperaggressive race needed to breed themselves up for two generations before committing to a war with the Rachni.
They ended up planting WMDs in Rachni tunnels and wiping them out rather than fighting them on their homeworlds.

We do not have the physical advantages that the Krogan do; ~50% of our population is SALARIAN and VOLUS.
Which means that batarians and asari would bear the brunt of that fighting, and they both take time to grow and mature. Nor are they comfortable in anything like the variety of environments that Rachni are capable of thriving in.

Furthermore, we lack the maturity of VI and dronetech necessary to simply drop robot soldiers, even assuming we don't get spawn a geth problem.
And finally, Rachni are telepathic.
Ground combat against an enemy that can share realtime tactical data and coordination from one soldier across their entire force is a nightmare.

We cannot afford the physical losses necessary to a ground-focused campaign without severe consequences to our population.
And it behooves me to point out that bleeding away soldiers in some ground campaign is not going to play well politically either.
This isn't Warhammer.

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We only need to clear Attican beta by ourselves. Hard but not impossible since we can be certain that both Attican beta and hades gamma at both just recently conquered so they are relatively new worlds, meaning significantly smaller hives. With full fleet support operating under ground support doctrine, complete marine reformation(probably assault frigates) and army investments for some tunnel fighting gear we could pull a few similar move story the krogan and clear the cluster. That would ensure we do not have to waste a considerable percentage (GSD text mentions half our strenght) blockading the world we have conquered the space lanes above to prevent them form reestablishing orbital infrastructure and preventing them form launching frigates(because those can be build on the planet and continue to harras us every turn)

Once Attican beta is secure we only need to do two more more worlds on our own, the relays of hades gama that connect Attican beta to the batarians and we can have the citadel streaming in to support us.

Once that is done, we got ourselves a corridor, as the citadel can and will blockade the hades gama rachni worlds until either we can grow our forces or export our model to the citadel forces who have the numbers. Remember berthat the krogan where a one world species as well that have just went through a nuclear war and were still fighting when the slaarians uplifted them. They needed two reproduction cycles to get the necessary numbers to have the numbers to recruit a army for a galactic civilisation, and it was not at the start of the war but once things have grown and the rachni as well on the worlds they have occupied. At those moment in time we have the opportunity to focus on this and manage to test it on significantly lower populated rachni worlds. If we manage to do it we can easily export it to the citadel or recruit from them as Virmire assault forces volunteers, since the citadel has the numbers for it.

uju32 said:

Clear Attican Beta and establish contact with the Citadel, you mean.
We do that by finding another route around the known Relays, or by hacking Rachni comm beacons to piggyback data to the Citadel, or by finding and hooking up with the Quarians.

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However getting contact with the citadel prior to hades gama would be a godsend to pull simultaneous assaults. But if that does not happen, having a cleared Attican beta would allow a successful assault fleet to beeline the main relay to the Bavarian space and fight long enough to send through a messenger at the worst case.

Finding a relay to the quarians is just as likely as finding a relay to the rachni, not a ideda I am to keen on from our home cluster until we have linked up with the citadel unless the quarians find us through some luck of the dice.

uju32 said:

One of the things people forget is the concept of the Fleet In Being.
Just by existing we tie down Rachni forces. They NEED to keep a force to defend against the threat of a Virmirean attack.
They need to expend industrial resources and logistics to prepare for a Virmire assault that might never come.

It would be nice to score offensive victories, and we will be pushing for it.
But our navy needs to be designed around keeping the Republic of Virmire alive first. Being able to hold the line. Offense is a secondary objective.
That's why I'm voting Many Fleets + Territory Defense, so we only send commit fleets to the offensive we can afford to lose without weakening our defenses.

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That is good but ground support doctrine allows us to assault the rachni worlds, meaning we do not have to blockade them, to prevent them from launching frigates every fucking turn, or building new ship yards. With ground support and max marines for the specialize ships we can ensure the lowest possible casualties for our troops and get to assaulting some very new and recent rachni colonies that had only over at most two decades to grow. That should be relatively achievable and once done the entire fleet can focus on defending the relays. This means a far greater number of ships defending the relays, and in case the rachni have a large incursion they don't just !liberate colonies that in on turn or two are back and provoding the rqchni war machine and we are basically right where we stareted.

We will have to clear them out of we want to have a line and not effectively a large carpet of occupied teritory, constantly sapping our fleet, especially a teritory defense or a fleet battle one. Raiding can ignore the necessity for blockade by treating atticakn beta as hostile teritory and raid it as well instead of bothering with blockades.

But eventually we will need to assault the worlds in the systems with the main relays if we want to have a corridor to the citadel, and we have to do it asap before the rachni can grow the colonies to established worlds we can not hope to defeat. If we have to do that then we might as well make certain that we loose as little population as possible while doing so, asa they are the most likely main worlds developed by the bugs. And if we do that we can clear out all the other smaller nests two with such a specialized force. Leaving nothing for bugs to liberate, and nothing at ourbacks we have to constantly guard and thus focus our entire strength on the three main relays in attican beta that do not lead to our home system.

It is kind of a limited opportunity that we have a chance here precisely because the war just started relatively recently and thus they are relatively undeveloped and thus we have a good chance of pulling it off.

And OOC it would be kind of pointless for the GM to provide doctrines that are not competitive with the default doctrine. In fact from what I have read we good odds of successfully pulling off any one of them. One could reason that sticking to the default is probably not the best of choice if we want to do anything but hide behind our own relay, since I doubt we have the resources to both defend three main relays and blockade a entire cluster worth of relatively new rachni worlds.


Also in less then serious notes:
You are a double heretic and a tripple coward! Everything is 40k!

[X][FLEET] Many Fleets. Smaller fleets will struggle to address determined resistance and force you to bring in reinforcements from other fleets, but can be produced in greater numbers, allowing you to more reliably cover ground.
[X][DOCTRINE] Retain Territory Defense Doctrine. Ultimately, Virmire remains a world with its back against the wall, and any offensives you make must be made only once you are sure of your position. Turtle up, and turtle harder. Make your space a brick wall, against which the Rachni might break themselves. You will serve the larger struggle with the forces the Rachni must devote to bottling you up. Will not cost additional resources to implement.
[X][MARINES] Grant Tannuvael's request. Now that the fight is moving beyond your space, there is a need for an elite, navy-integrated ground force responsible for void-borne operations. Will require an eventual fleet-wide refit.

I think we are making a big mistake by allowing the Rachni to digest their holdings. We've been fighting them on easy mode so far, but if they are able to get their industry up and running we are going to see them experience exponential growth inside of the clusters they have conquered.

remulian said:

We only need to clear Attican beta by ourselves. Hard but not impossible since we can be certain that both Attican beta and hades gamma at both just recently conquered so they are relatively new worlds, meaning significantly smaller hives.

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1) Clusters, not worlds.
There are lots of planets in this patch of space, and the Rachni have proven capable of making use of marginal worlds.

2) Rachni are R-breeders. Egg-layers.
TELEPATHIC egg layers at that, who were capable of at least partly training their spawn telepathically.
That's how Cerebrus was able to get them to mass-produce so fast, and had actual soldiers.

They could literally have shipped in eggs from off-world and only later brought in a queen to run things.
And the race is hardy enough to survive in deathworld territory.
They will have taken longer to set up industry, but actually putting up colonies is not the problem you seem to think it would be.

They had the Attican Beta Cluster for a minimum of ten years, probably longer; this war has been running for forty years plus so far.

remulian said:

Once Attican beta is secure we only need to do two more more worlds on our own, the relays of hades gama that connect Attican beta to the batarians and we can have the citadel streaming in to support us.

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Do not count on the Citadel having force to spare.
We are trying to get back into contact for coordination; if they had force to spare, they would have cracked the Rachni front on their own.

remulian said:

That is good but ground support doctrine allows us to assault the rachni worlds,

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And you aren't paying attention to the strategic situation.

Look at the map.
We are a Tier 3 polity, based out of a single system, at war with a Tier 1 polity that has been fighting two other Tier 1 and multiple Tier 2 polities.
No allies. And as far as we can tell, they have been winning.

As of last turn, they had lost more dreadnoughts in the last ten years on just our front than we have produced capital ships.
It hasn't seemed to phase them very much.

Furthermore, nothing is free; picking a ground focus necessarily means our navy would be worse at space fights than they would be otherwise.
To quote the Naval Board fluff:

Finally, a vocal faction among Marine and Army officers, with some Navy support, has called for the adoption of a Ground Support Doctrine. Primarily favored by the Courts of Dekuuna, this kind of doctrine (formally known as Olumian Doctrine) declares that the ability to win a war is dependent on the ability to take planets, as until your have soldiers on the ground, the enemy is not truly beaten. While ridiculed in general in the wider galaxy as of last contact, our board has found merit in this proposal; while most other doctrines call for enemy planetary forces to simply be blockaded until the enemy's naval forces have been destroyed or otherwise driven from the field, Olumian doctrine makes the compelling point that in the event of these holdouts being liberated, the enemy's presence in that area will be swiftly reestablished thanks to the planet's ability to anchor a presence remaining intact, thereby nullifying all of one's gains in short order. This doctrine demands that the navy focus on supporting ground operations over grand void offensives, improving the coordination between navy and army and making soldiers fight far more efficiently. To achieve this end, this doctrine relies on a heavy cruiser focus with a secondary dreadnought focus, and de-emphasizes screening vessels. It also makes our gains far harder to fully dislodge thanks to a swift establishment of ground garrisons which the enemy is less well-equipped to remove. However, an emphasis on ground support means that our fleets lack any particular benefits in the void. Lacking concrete strengths in space, this is a doctrine that call for extremely careful force deployment, with planning focusing more on exploiting enemy weaknesses than one's own strengths. Easy to see why this is an elcor innovation.

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We are intentionally making our space fleets mediocre, and making home defense more difficult in order to go and fight the Rachni on ground where they have an advantage.
We cannot afford to cosplay Warhammer 40k; we have neither the logistical, technological or demographic advantages for it.

EDIT

remulian said:

It is kind of a limited opportunity that we have a chance here precisely because the war just started relatively recently and thus they are relatively undeveloped and thus we have a good chance of pulling it off.

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The war started around forty years ago.
An entire generation of Salarians has been born and died since it started..

we have clear winners for Many Fleets and Grant Tannuvael request.
we have a close vote between Retain Territory Defense Doctrine at 25 votes against
Raiding Doctrine at 23
Inserted tally

[X][FLEET] Many Fleets. Smaller fleets will struggle to address determined resistance and force you to bring in reinforcements from other fleets, but can be produced in greater numbers, allowing you to more reliably cover ground.
[X][DOCTRINE] Adopt Raiding Doctrine. Virmire faces a situation outside the planning of conventional military thinkers, and thus it is only fitting that you adopt a doctrine designed by Virmireans. You cannot hope to face the Rachni in the open once they truly turn their focus to you. Instead focus on slipping through their lines and striking at their rear, wreaking havoc and forcing them to split their focus a thousand ways. The chaos you leave in your wake will be your contribution to the struggle.
[X][MARINES] Grant Tannuvael's request. Now that the fight is moving beyond your space, there is a need for an elite, navy-integrated ground force responsible for void-borne operations. Will require an eventual fleet-wide refit.

[X][FLEET] Large Fleets. Large fleets will be able to secure their zones of responsibility with greater ease, but given the administrative difficulties in spreading them out across multiple clusters, and the inescapable fact that you'll be able to afford fewer, you will be able to cover less ground.
[X][DOCTRINE] Retain Territory Defense Doctrine. Ultimately, Virmire remains a world with its back against the wall, and any offensives you make must be made only once you are sure of your position. Turtle up, and turtle harder. Make your space a brick wall, against which the Rachni might break themselves. You will serve the larger struggle with the forces the Rachni must devote to bottling you up. Will not cost additional resources to implement.
[X][MARINES] Grant Tannuvael's request. Now that the fight is moving beyond your space, there is a need for an elite, navy-integrated ground force responsible for void-borne operations. Will require an eventual fleet-wide refit

I've strongly considered voting for Ground Assault, as I think totally securing Attican Beta accomplishes Defense's goals better via defense in depth; Raiding is out totally, offering way too much attention for too little lasting damage, and weakening our defense of the only holding that matters, our homeworld. That said, Ground Assault is almost certainly too late an entry to get the support to win, making it a choice between Defense and Raiding. In that case...

[X][DOCTRINE] Retain Territory Defense Doctrine. Ultimately, Virmire remains a world with its back against the wall, and any offensives you make must be made only once you are sure of your position. Turtle up, and turtle harder. Make your space a brick wall, against which the Rachni might break themselves. You will serve the larger struggle with the forces the Rachni must devote to bottling you up. Will not cost additional resources to implement.

I may reconsider if there's a sudden swing in the votes, and depending on how I feel about Ground Assault after more brainstorming.

I really don't see what ground support gains us, anything planets that we take can just be bombarded from orbit.

Why send our people to die where our enemy have a massive advantage.

I kind of see the choice as a prisoner's dillemma.

There are four factions bordering the Rachni [Us, Quarians, Council, Batarians]. If every faction chooses the defensive strategy, the Rachni (with their massive territory advantage and fast breeding) win. If one faction chooses a non-defensive strategy, and the rest choose the defensive strategy, the first faction loses. If every faction chooses a non-defensive strategy, the Rachni lose.

We can also surmise that the type of strategy we employ will determine how post-war relations (and how the spoils are divided) will be.
-Retain Territory Defense Doctrine. Minimal impact on the war. Neutral relations.
-Adopt Fleet Battle Doctrine. Moderate impact on the war. Warm relations.
-Adopt Raiding Doctrine. High impact on the war. Good relations.
-Adopt Ground Assault Doctrine. Massive impact on the war. Excellent relations.

Rakuhn said:

I kind of see the choice as a prisoner's dillemma.

There are four factions bordering the Rachni [Us, Quarians, Council, Batarians]. If every faction chooses the defensive strategy, the Rachni (with their massive territory advantage and fast breeding) win. If one faction chooses a non-defensive strategy, and the rest choose the defensive strategy, the first faction loses. If every faction chooses a non-defensive strategy, the Rachni lose.

We can also surmise that the type of strategy we employ will determine how post-war relations (and how the spoils are divided) will be.
-Retain Territory Defense Doctrine. Minimal impact on the war. Neutral relations.
-Adopt Fleet Battle Doctrine. Moderate impact on the war. Warm relations.
-Adopt Raiding Doctrine. High impact on the war. Good relations.
-Adopt Ground Assault Doctrine. Massive impact on the war. Excellent relations.

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Yes, but Asari, botched up that part of Prothean (cultural)teachings and adopted rather pacifistic stand, Salarians want to win information/influence war that Rachni lack, Batarian need their slaves and their kastu* system limits what they can do, Elcor are relatively safe due to isolationism, Quarians are an unknown and Volus can't use economy to deal with our friendly buggers here.

so Citadel, that is mainly controlled by Asari, won't take on any form of aggressive (aka any non-Territory Defence strategies), so yeah.


*= in Latvian don't know how it translates in English

Renars said:

kastu*


*= in Latvian don't know how it translates in English

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Caste, so the original word is probably Indian or Egyptian and other languages just grabbed it.

[X][FLEET] Large Fleets. Large fleets will be able to secure their zones of responsibility with greater ease, but given the administrative difficulties in spreading them out across multiple clusters, and the inescapable fact that you'll be able to afford fewer, you will be able to cover less ground.
[X][DOCTRINE] Retain Territory Defense Doctrine. Ultimately, Virmire remains a world with its back against the wall, and any offensives you make must be made only once you are sure of your position. Turtle up, and turtle harder. Make your space a brick wall, against which the Rachni might break themselves. You will serve the larger struggle with the forces the Rachni must devote to bottling you up. Will not cost additional resources to implement.
[X][MARINES] Grant Tannuvael's request. Now that the fight is moving beyond your space, there is a need for an elite, navy-integrated ground force responsible for void-borne operations. Will require an eventual fleet-wide refit.

IMO there are a couple of reasons to go on the defensive.

1. We really, really want to keep control of this nexus and our homeworld.
2. We are a small fish now but in time we can become a big fish. Survival as such is a priority. We have a LOT of untapped resources and potential scientific breakthroughs that can change the game. The longer we live the more we can apply those.
3. I don't trust the Citadel to not screw us over if we go on the offensive. They might very well see all the pressure they aren't getting and take a break.
4. Losses right now are pretty likely to break us, raiding is almost certainly going to go wrong at some point.
5. Ground combat with Rachni is a losing proposition for us. I wouldn't be surprised if the Rachni outnumber us a 100 to 1 and they have a lot of ground combat advantages. We can maybe win some boarding actions and stuff but real planetary warfare is suicide.
6. Since I want to defend it doesn't make sense to get small fleets. That'll only cause coordination issues and unnecessary costs.
7. By sticking mostly to our current setup we save money we can then use to build more ships. Switching into other plans has a cost of its own.