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Res Publica: A Quest of Ancient Rome

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[X] The Quixotic Quest
-[] Accept Sertorius' offer. Scaevola will doubtless be angered by your implicit rejection of his patronage, but you will gain as a mentor a man who learned at the feet of Marius himself. You will fight in the dusky fields of Spain where your father earned his glory and his name, and learn of war at the feet of a master. Hannibal, Scipio, Sertorius -- some of Rome's most beloved and hated names have arisen in Spain. Might you follow in their footsteps?
-[] A Soldier's Welcome: You pay a visit to your sisters at the apartment Proserpina has rented for your family in Rome. Your old servants will be there as well.
-[] Mentor: You pay a visit to the Pontifex Maximus, your mentor, the old jurist Scaevola.
-[] Blood and Sand: The teeming hordes of Rome gather in the amphitheaters of the city to watch men fight and die and scrabble in the dirt for the glory and the name of Rome. Many of the city's more bloodthirsty elite take a special delight in these festivities, and several influential Senate members often watch.
-[] Revels in the Forum: When night falls, the plebs and the patricians alike join in great revels in the Forum, with wine, flesh, and food abound. The common people will love any who join them in their mad bacchanals.
 
Still somewhat uncertain if this is the right choice but considering what Telamon rather ominously told me...

[] Plan Stay the Course

I'd rather stay with the IVth anyways.

Edit: changed vote.
 
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[x] Plan Roman Connection
-[x] Refuse Sertorius' offer. You cannot leave Rome, and you cannot abandon the ties you have already made here to follow Sertorius on some quixotic quest to Spain. There is glory enough to be gained in Rome, if you know where to look.

-[x] The Bacchanals: Rome's youngest and wealthiest throw their own extravagant private parties atop the Palatine Hill, great affairs of drinking, licentiousness, and all those vices which Romans have so long claimed to despise. Perhaps the eminent party of these Triumphal celebrations is that thrown by the eminent statesman Quintus Lutiatus Catulus, a renowned optimate, and his friend, Marius' nephew-in-law, Lucius Sergius Catalina. You have been personally invited to one of these celebrations by the latter.

-[x]The Bacchanals: Rome's youngest and wealthiest throw their own extravagant private parties atop the Palatine Hill, great affairs of drinking, licentiousness, and all those vices which Romans have so long claimed to despise. Perhaps the eminent party of these Triumphal celebrations is that thrown by the eminent statesman Quintus Lutiatus Catulus, a renowned optimate, and his friend, Marius' nephew-in-law, Lucius Sergius Catalina. You have been personally invited to one of these celebrations by the latter.

-[x] A Soldier's Welcome: You pay a visit to your sisters at the apartment Proserpina has rented for your family in Rome. Your old servants will be there as well.
-[x] Mentor: You pay a visit to the Pontifex Maximus, your mentor, the old jurist Scaevola.
 
Caesar said:
And going to Spain has one glaring issue. Spain is not enough of a powerbase to fight the rest of the Republic, given the characters of everyone involved, there are very few futures that do not involve Sertorius fighting the eventual victor of the Marius/Sulla deathmatch. It's a lingering death, with very little we can do to influence our fate. Personally, I prefer the gamble (and I acknowledge that it is a gamble) of staying with the legion.
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If I switch a sentence or two in this section, I could say something similar about Caesar's power base in Gaul. Sertorius is not doomed by fate or history.

And as for defecting, you've no knowledge if we would have any forewarning about a move against us by Pompey. Considering our weakness is intrigue. . . .


Caesar said:
Pompey is going to be a problem in any scenario. (A complete Marian victory delays matters somewhat, but that is not a stable coalition. Cinna and Marius only need each other while Sulla lives, and Marius, at least, will not tolerate an equal he does not need.) But the best way I see to mitigate him that doesn't leave us to rot in the hinterlands of the Republic is winning the loyalty of a legion of our own.
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In which case, Sertorius and our character would be a third player between Cinna and Marius.


Edit: Also, isn't there a pretty damn good chance the IV will join Sertorius? Telamon stated that Sertorius would pull strings to try to get the legion to go with him. We can still win its loyalty.
 
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[X] Plan Stay the Course

Bullmoose said:
If I switch a sentence or two in this section, I could say something similar about Caesar's power base in Gaul. Sertorius is not doomed by fate or history.
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The problem with Hispania as a power base isn't simply that it's too weak (though Caesar's power never depended solely on Gaul), it's that it's removed from Rome by an ocean or a very long land march. It's remote, and as such, anyone who is in Hispania is going to have little power to influence affairs in Rome. The same distance that makes it a safe place to sit out the next twelve months or so of the civil war makes it a place from which all one can really do is anxiously await the outcome.
 
Gaul wasn't really a "power base". Gaul was a source of prestige and wealth for Caesar that he used to furnish his legions and operate autonomously of the senate. But he didn't take Rome with the full might of Gaul; he took it with one legion and a lot of luck.
 
Ok what happens with the VI is up the air. It is up to the senate to decide what happens with the legion. While favors may be pulled it is not a sure thing of what will happen with the legion. Since the Senate will try to make sure that our mentor does not have legions that are too loyal to him.
 
Cetashwayo said:
Gaul wasn't really a "power base". Gaul was a source of prestige and wealth for Caesar that he used to furnish his legions and operate autonomously of the senate. But he didn't take Rome with the full might of Gaul; he took it with one legion and a lot of luck.
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I mean, doesn't that kinda qualify as a powerbase?

He took Rome with one legion. Then he held Rome, secured Spain and beat Pompey at Pharsalus with the legions he had forged in Gaul, along the help of the wealth and clients he had accrued. If Pompey's conquest in Asia provided him with a powerbase (which it did), then Caesar's conquests in Gaul qualifies as well.

Regardless of the semantical debate though, Spain will provide us with clients, wealth, experience and allows to raise our own legions as needed (or rather allow Sertorius). Just as Caesar's Campaign in Gaul did for him.
 
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Bullmoose said:
I mean, doesn't that kinda qualify as a powerbase?

He took Rome with one legion. Then he held Rome, secured Spain and beat Pompey at Pharsalus with the legions he had forged in Gaul, along the help of the wealth and clients he had accrued. If Pompey's conquest in Asia provided him with a powerbase (which it did), then Caesar's conquests in Gaul qualifies as well.

Regardless of the semantical debate though, Spain will provide us with clients, wealth, experience and allows to raise our own legions as needed (or rather allow Sertorius). Just as Caesar's Campaign in Gaul did for him.
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Well actually when you put it that way yes :V
 
[X] The Quixotic Quest
-[] Accept Sertorius' offer. Scaevola will doubtless be angered by your implicit rejection of his patronage, but you will gain as a mentor a man who learned at the feet of Marius himself. You will fight in the dusky fields of Spain where your father earned his glory and his name, and learn of war at the feet of a master. Hannibal, Scipio, Sertorius -- some of Rome's most beloved and hated names have arisen in Spain. Might you follow in their footsteps?
-[] A Soldier's Welcome: You pay a visit to your sisters at the apartment Proserpina has rented for your family in Rome. Your old servants will be there as well.
-[] Mentor: You pay a visit to the Pontifex Maximus, your mentor, the old jurist Scaevola.
-[] Blood and Sand: The teeming hordes of Rome gather in the amphitheaters of the city to watch men fight and die and scrabble in the dirt for the glory and the name of Rome. Many of the city's more bloodthirsty elite take a special delight in these festivities, and several influential Senate members often watch.
-[] Revels in the Forum: When night falls, the plebs and the patricians alike join in great revels in the Forum, with wine, flesh, and food abound. The common people will love any who join them in their mad bacchanals.
 
If it makes anyone feel better, I put in the decision to speak to Scaevola for that very reason, it seemed appropriate to say our goodbyes and explain our thoughts to him. We might end up on opposite sides in the future, but I figured Atellus would want to do right by him in whatever way he could.

It should also be noted we might end up on the opposite side of Scaevola anyway, as our current plan is to play both sides until a victor becomes apparent. If the populares come out ahead, we'd be forced to betray him out of political expediency.
 
Violation of Rule 4 - Spaghetti posting
Meep said:
The benefits are that we're avoiding the civil war,
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Depending how it goes we are merely postponing our involvement and already picking our side.
Meep said:
getting the chance to make a name for ourselves by taking land for Rome,
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For the start we would be claiming land held by the Sullan faction.
Meep said:
but Atellus already aligns ideologically with the populares, so we're not safe if Sulla wins regardless,
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And Sulla knows this because?
Meep said:
We can't influence things to stop the Sertorian Wars from happening.
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Why would we even want to, as long as we don't have to fight it?
Bullmoose said:
If Sulla wins (or if Marius has a stroke or something, which I am betting can happen any day now) and comes west to retake Rome, I'm of the opinion that we're fucked because we've made an enemy of Pompey. Even if we try to switch sides and help Sulla, we are a nobody who can offer him little. Even adding our relationship with Scaevola, Pompey has way more to offer to Sulla than we do. And once the proscriptions start, our name is going to show up on a list one day.
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I doubt that, mostly because Pompey is a pompous ass. In OTL he quickly managed to alienate Sulla. We'd probably have to hide for a few months if Sulla is so badly bruised when coming home that he has to accept whatever Pompey is telling him. For a while that is, you don't really think that once entrenched Sulla is going to listen to a youth like him?
Bullmoose said:
And lets not rely too much on historical hindsight in evaluating Sertorius' fate, and ours, if we choose to go with him. It was an incompetent, overly ambitious underling who betrayed him. Guess who's going to be there to stop any such thing from happening if we do end up at war with whatever figure controls Rome?
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Knowing that Roman held Spain has neither the resources nor the manpower to contest the rest of the empire is not historical hindsight. Sure, there is always the possibility that things can take a better turn, but the deck is stacked against him.
Bullmoose said:
the populares are a far more sympathetic choice to me than the optimates.
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not the current batch and if you ask me.
 
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Thyreus said:
Depending how it goes we are merely postponing our involvement and already picking our side.

For the start we would be claiming land held by the Sullan faction.

And Sulla knows this because?

Why would we even want to, as long as we don't have to fight it?

I doubt that, mostly because Pompey is a pompous ass. In OTL he quickly managed to alienate Sulla. We'd probably have to hide for a few months if Sulla is so badly bruised when coming home that he has to accept whatever Pompey is telling him. For a while that is, you don't really think that once entrenched Sulla is going to listen to a youth like him?

Knowing that Roman held Spain has neither the resources nor the manpower to contest the rest of the empire is not historical hindsight. Sure, there is always the possibility that things can take a better turn, but the deck is stacked against him.

not the current batch and if you ask me.
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We can always spin taking over Spain as a neccesary step to securing the valuable Hispanic Tin Traid from African Raids after the fact. After all the current governors are incompetent and there are raids happening.

As to whether or not Spain has the resources to resist Sulla, it technically does, it just requires more efficient management. It was Pompey's main power base during the First Triumvirate and provided tens of thousands of troops for the Barcids before Rome showed up. Spain also is a good source of metals and grain, two things essential to fielding legions.

The main problem is that the Governors have mismanaged things for years now and the peninsula suffers raids from Numidians and Pirates on the regular. Its possible that our involvement can help right the ship before Sulla comes calling
 
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