Zenkyoto : A Brief Overview on the History of Leftism in Japan and its influence on Otaku Culture

100%. The need for a cleaner image and continued social mobility is key so there is a need to discard things that might dull any of that. Things that are seen as "quirky" might be played up or left alone if the public is receptive to it, or if it ultimately doesn't affect too much. Basically exploiting what they can exploit. It doesn't mean there aren't people who actually are passionate about their crafts and technologies, but they're usually not at the front of their companies driving change.

And yeah all of the bad stuff has been around for years, but there's this tribalism that just glosses over it completely to continue the "nerds vs. jocks" culture wars of times past. Which is funny because as far as anime was concerned, they watched the same things.
The nerds left behind by those former nerds who climbed the mainstream power hierarchy get upset because these former nerds basically just crap all over them. Some of the criticism is valid, some of it isn't, but all of it comes from a place of hypocrisy and cynical status-seeking. They see it as a betrayal of sorts. This kind of resentment is then aimed at new people coming in to critique the nerd culture, and that's how you get things like GamerGate.

Nerd culture is largely left-libertarian in its political leanings and general demeanor, but there's a sense in which it's conservative because everyone is conservative about what they know. Nobody wants the status quo to change if they like the status quo.
 
You can't fully appreciate the nature and scope of Japanese cultural output by looking at only anime/manga, and equally significantly you can't appreciate the cultural output of anime/manga just by looking at a few subsections of it. I've basically talked about this before in a different thread, but frankly most people just don't appreciate how much stuff there is, and how heterogeneous it is.

Let's illustrate this by taking a look at the wikipedia article for "List of manga magazines". Now obviously the first thing to note is that there's a heck of a lot of them, even if you sort by "year of last issue" and only count the ones that are blank and thus (probably) still in circulation, there's a heck of a lot. But even more interestingly, if you sort by publisher, I counted 49 (probably off by a few because I did a manual count) distinct publishers. At least a few of those are out of business, but there are easily 30 distinct publishers of manga magazines still active today.

In my opinion, this is an unimaginable ecosystem for the publication of comics for those of us in the west. Becoming a successful mangaka is not easy, but it's nonetheless a job with enough demand that a really rather astounding number of people actually get to do it, and huge numbers of people who attempt it spin off into a multitude of related fields (character design, anime, illustration work, graphic design, video game art...!) and equally a huge number of people get involved in amateur projects - doujinshi being what we are most familiar with, but here too there are numerous variations, and some artists even go pro or semi-pro off the kind of conventions and art markets that were originally spawned around doujinshi.

This is an enormous cultural enterprise, and fascinatingly, it is highly driven by individual interests. Obviously pro mangaka are enmeshed in the editorial culture of the magazine they work with, and many mangaka work almost exclusively on adaptations or spin-offs of other works as part of multi-media franchises (and often seem totally happy and often highly enthusiastic about these serializations, typically as fans of the original work - the Spice and Wolf manga and the Railgun manga spinoff come to mind), but a huge number of manga serializations are, essentially, crowdsourced until they start serialization.

What can we even say about such a vast, complex field? How can we speak about "manga" when we can barely keep track of the fraction of series we like, and probably couldn't even say what the titles are of the three most popular manga in the biggest shoujo magazine?

(for the record, according to wikipedia this is (likely) Ciao magazine with around 500k issues in circulation circa 2016, where wikipedia notes 5 currently running series out of 18, and I'm not even going to try to figure out which of these three are the most popular - probably Youkai Watch is one of them but anyway)

As a different example, one of my favourite manga, Asahinagu, started serialization in 2011, has reached 32 volumes and had a live-action movie adaptation. The most recent scanlation effort (and there is no official English version) has barely gotten halfway through volume 2. I know only one other person other than me who reads it, and unless you stalk my posts, I bet most people don't even know it exists. And why would you?

In a sense, the vague talk by me and guderian2nd in the first two posts of this thread about ~current manga culture~ was vague not because it is difficult to identify the current signs of "the history of manga", but because today, "the history of manga" is nearly equivalent to "the history of japan". At the vast scale of this enterprise, conceptualizing manga as somehow more approachable, more accessible, more easy to analyse than, say, the field of literature strikes me as fundamentally mistaken. Because at the end of the day, anybody can draw manga. Some boy drew an entire manga (oneshot, I believe) on his smartphone.

In the face of that, I think our analysis of Japan, and Japanese culture, and the culture of manga requires some humility, and also either some specificity or a much wider understanding of current manga than I think anybody on this forum - even me, who reads both widely and in Japanese - is really capable of.

EDIT: turns out there are actually more than 18 series serialized in Ciao magazine because not all of them run in every issue lol. Also the Youkai Watch manga in Ciao isn't the primary serialization but a spin-off, so I'm totally in the dark about relative popularity :V
 
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In the face of that, I think our analysis of Japan, and Japanese culture, and the culture of manga requires some humility, and also either some specificity or a much wider understanding of current manga than I think anybody on this forum - even me, who reads both widely and in Japanese - is really capable of.
Without a doubt. I've learned a lot about this in the past few years (I also remember that you spoke on the sheer size of what's called Japanese literature compared to the "notable in the west" light novel subsection). I was attempting to get at that when I mentioned the super narrow scope of content shown on cable channels like Cartoon Network, that nonetheless shaped how western (at least American, as the most vocal) audiences saw anime (and manga) for multiple decades now. There's so much that we don't know or even understand though and I try to remind myself of that.


They see it as a betrayal of sorts. This kind of resentment is then aimed at new people coming in to critique the nerd culture, and that's how you get things like GamerGate.
Meh. Gamergate was nerds LARPing as Crusaders and trying to drive what they perceived as "infidels" out of their culture. They saw it as a culture war and acted accordingly. We've had critique about how being "normal" changes you for a while now in "nerd focused" works and commentary etc. So I don't see Gamergate as a redirection of frustration, it was an opportunity to lash out at foreign entities that were a threat to the status quo, supposedly. That's why there was such confusion about what it was at first as a movement, especially once it started to turn on people who asked what was happening with the "game" part of the whole thing.

The betrayal angle seems even more suspect when you realize that nerds aren't any less hierarchical than any other group. They can be far more exclusive than even the popularly characterized knucklehead sportsball fandom, which while also toxic in its own ways has a relatively low bar to entry. Going back to my point about everyone watching the same things, there's this misconception that anyone who isn't a "nerd" watched anime for "mmm pretty girls" and "haha shiny laser go brrrr", that they didn't have an appreciation for the technical elements or the dramatic elements or anything else; the kind of cultural elitism that carries over today and suggests the "decline" of anime and manga because the uncultured masses don't know what they're looking at. It's a recurring thing, you see it in videogames too, but it's very loud in western anime discourse. When you can call it that anyways.
 
Without a doubt. I've learned a lot about this in the past few years (I also remember that you spoke on the sheer size of what's called Japanese literature compared to the "notable in the west" light novel subsection). I was attempting to get at that when I mentioned the super narrow scope of content shown on cable channels like Cartoon Network, that nonetheless shaped how western (at least American, as the most vocal) audiences saw anime (and manga) for multiple decades now. There's so much that we don't know or even understand though and I try to remind myself of that.



Meh. Gamergate was nerds LARPing as Crusaders and trying to drive what they perceived as "infidels" out of their culture. They saw it as a culture war and acted accordingly. We've had critique about how being "normal" changes you for a while now in "nerd focused" works and commentary etc. So I don't see Gamergate as a redirection of frustration, it was an opportunity to lash out at foreign entities that were a threat to the status quo, supposedly. That's why there was such confusion about what it was at first as a movement, especially once it started to turn on people who asked what was happening with the "game" part of the whole thing.

The betrayal angle seems even more suspect when you realize that nerds aren't any less hierarchical than any other group. They can be far more exclusive than even the popularly characterized knucklehead sportsball fandom, which while also toxic in its own ways has a relatively low bar to entry. Going back to my point about everyone watching the same things, there's this misconception that anyone who isn't a "nerd" watched anime for "mmm pretty girls" and "haha shiny laser go brrrr", that they didn't have an appreciation for the technical elements or the dramatic elements or anything else; the kind of cultural elitism that carries over today and suggests the "decline" of anime and manga because the uncultured masses don't know what they're looking at. It's a recurring thing, you see it in videogames too, but it's very loud in western anime discourse. When you can call it that anyways.
Gamergate was an astroturfed media blitz by the far right. It was never anything else.
 
Gamergate was an astroturfed media blitz by the far right. It was never anything else.
It was something else before the salt right got to it, just not much more than angry ranting. One of the guys who helped propel the whole thing forward with the Zoe Quinn video series (it was InternetAristocrat that he went by) basically said that if the "movement" didn't find a direction certain elements would find one for them, pretty much indicating that there was interest in the state of gaming (this was around the time of protests against "paid DLC" and the like). At the very beginning there was some sort of concern about "gaming" mixed in with the sjw railing, but the latter took over starting with #notyourshield and then it was downhill from there.
 
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Meh. Gamergate was nerds LARPing as Crusaders and trying to drive what they perceived as "infidels" out of their culture. They saw it as a culture war and acted accordingly. We've had critique about how being "normal" changes you for a while now in "nerd focused" works and commentary etc. So I don't see Gamergate as a redirection of frustration, it was an opportunity to lash out at foreign entities that were a threat to the status quo, supposedly. That's why there was such confusion about what it was at first as a movement, especially once it started to turn on people who asked what was happening with the "game" part of the whole thing.

The betrayal angle seems even more suspect when you realize that nerds aren't any less hierarchical than any other group. They can be far more exclusive than even the popularly characterized knucklehead sportsball fandom, which while also toxic in its own ways has a relatively low bar to entry. Going back to my point about everyone watching the same things, there's this misconception that anyone who isn't a "nerd" watched anime for "mmm pretty girls" and "haha shiny laser go brrrr", that they didn't have an appreciation for the technical elements or the dramatic elements or anything else; the kind of cultural elitism that carries over today and suggests the "decline" of anime and manga because the uncultured masses don't know what they're looking at. It's a recurring thing, you see it in videogames too, but it's very loud in western anime discourse. When you can call it that anyways.
First, I don't see how the presence of exclusivity in nerddom makes the betrayal angle more suspect.

Second, there's nothing else you've said that I disagree with.
 
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First, I don't see how the presence of exclusivity in nerddom makes the betrayal angle more suspect.
It's that and the already hierarchical nature as I mentioned. But to answer the exclusivity point, these are groups with pretty concrete ideas on what it "means to be a nerd". There's an awareness already that to get ahead or to be accepted by mainstream culture you have to be less of yourself, or not disclose your interests too often aka "hiding your power level". With that in mind and watching it happen so often, combined with the fact that even the "high up" nerds often present as normal, I don't really see it as betrayal. I'm not sure what that anger is, maybe it's just jealousy.

But it's also more than possible that it is some sort of feeling of betrayal, even if it doesn't strictly make sense based on pattern recognition, and I'm just not getting it.
 
As a small, perhaps general interest addition that I won't vouch for the accuracy of, I did a quick check of "how many pro-mangaka are there in Japan" in Japanese, and found this blogpost from 2015 プロ漫画家は日本に何人いるのか? - 漫画の真ん中 (it's in Japanese, obviously)

Now I couldn't be bothered to actually read the full argumentation so take it with a grain of salt, but on skimming I found that the blogpost estimates that probably (as of 2015), around 6000 people were capable of feeding themselves by being mangaka were probably more or less full-time pros based on tankobon sales (but this may not reflect if they needed supplemental income or not).

On the one hand, that's not like, tons of people, but on the other hand fuck that's a lot of people producing manga full-time.
 
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Oh God, we have an unironic "go woke, go broke" take here about anime and manga. That's hilarious.

It is. So is the diagram for the beliefs that mentions "natural heirarchy" atop "deep heritage", "race-realism" and "sex realism".

Ahh, when you start your claim to be speaking for the true and natural masters of humanity with a misspelling.
 
Go away, meta-bigot. Your moral panic is not welcome here.

In any case, there are people who believe that anime and manga will die because, as they see it, it's going the way of North American comics in being overly reliant on references (or "artificial signs," as he puts it).

Ah, yes, I see you are recommending us a very reasonable Youtuber who makes videos with titles like

The 'Progressive' movement will sell you slavery under the banner of Liberty
There is no such thing as a good 'progressive' story

Anyway, let's actually explore this. I'm sure that Get Woke Go Broke will have the same sort of level of veracity we see in American media. I mean you have manga like Bloom Into You which *checks notes* has 850,000 copies in Japan alone. There's also, according to a friend, Kaguya-sama Love Is War (full disclosure, haven't read myself), and I think its numbers speak for themselves so I'll just link them. There's also Kurusaya no Hitorigoto, a manga that takes a more positive view of courtesans and a female protagonist that was 9th on AnimeJapan's Most Wanted Anime Adaptation poll.

I could also point out the popularity of works like Soul Eater (when it was running) and Act-Age, two examples of popular shounen manga with female protagonists. (Act-Age is also incredibly popular among "I want this to be adapted into an anime" polls). I would argue Bakarina deserves to be included here too.

If you go to anime, I could point out that the magical girl series with often rather progressive themes Precure continues to utterly dominate children's media. I could note Sailor Moon's stranglehold on the same sorts of demographics before then that completely brought new life to the genre. I could point out the popularity of Revolutionary Girl Utena. I could point out Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood. I could point out Ghost in the Shell and its sequel movie and then two-season series.

It's almost like "Get Woke Go Broke" is, ironically, an entirely broken and useless euphemism regardless of the language, despite the fact that it rhymes!

(Thanks to @Magery and @Fyre for some assistance here.)
 
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Go away, meta-bigot. Your moral panic is not welcome here.

In any case, there are people who believe that anime and manga will die because, as they see it, it's going the way of North American comics in being overly reliant on references (or "artificial signs," as he puts it).

Sometimes I think the Alt-Right tries to make its terminology as ungainly and ugly as possible because they think it gives their horrible ideas intellectual heft.

And other times, I know.
 
Ah, yes, I see you are recommending us a very reasonable Youtuber who makes videos with titles like




Anyway, let's actually explore this. I'm sure that Get Woke Go Broke will have the same sort of level of veracity we see in American media. I mean you have manga like Bloom Into You which *checks notes* has 850,000 copies in Japan alone. There's also, according to a friend, Kaguya-sama Love Is War (full disclosure, haven't read myself), and I think its numbers speak for themselves so I'll just link them. There's also Kurusaya no Hitorigoto, a manga that takes a more positive view of courtesans and a female protagonist that was 9th on AnimeJapan's Most Wanted Anime Adaptation poll.

I could also point out the popularity of works like Soul Eater (when it was running) and Act-Age, two examples of popular shounen manga with female protagonists. (Act-Age is also incredibly popular among "I want this to be adapted into an anime" polls). I would argue Bakarina deserves to be included here too.

If you go to anime, I could point out that the magical girl series with often rather progressive themes Precure continues to utterly dominate children's media. I could note Sailor Moon's stranglehold on the same sorts of demographics before then that completely brought new life to the genre. I could point out the popularity of Revolutionary Girl Utena. I could point out Fullmetal Alchemist: Brotherhood. I could point out Ghost in the Shell and its sequel movie and then two-season series.

It's almost like "Get Woke Go Broke" is, ironically, an entirely broken and useless euphemism regardless of the language, despite the fact that it rhymes!

(Thanks to @Magery and @Fyre for some assistance here.)
For the third time, I don't believe in Get Woke, Go Broke. I accept that the Leftists are in charge and pretty much rule the world.
 
For the third time, I don't believe in Get Woke, Go Broke.

Let's pretend that that isn't fundamentally the argument that your source was making then.

The thesis that you are independently promoting is equally without any sort of substance. You think manga and anime writing are fundamentally engoing this massive decline en masse because ???? and that this will result in them persuing more progressive themes to compensate for bad writing because ????.

Your thesis is entirely dependent upon utter speculation without any actual substance to your claims whatsoever.
 
Let's pretend that that isn't fundamentally the argument that your source was making then.

The thesis that you are independently promoting is equally without any sort of substance. You think manga and anime writing are fundamentally engoing this massive decline en masse because ???? and that this will result in them persuing more progressive themes to compensate for bad writing because ????.

Your thesis is entirely dependent upon utter speculation without any actual substance to your claims whatsoever.

Look, what's the point of wanting to bring back the Middle Ages if you can't bring back good old-fashioned scholastic style arguments?

Only, minus any actual effort, because, you know, actually reasoning out your bullshit the way Thomas Aquinas did is hard.
 
Let's pretend that that isn't fundamentally the argument that your source was making then.

The thesis that you are independently promoting is equally without any sort of substance. You think manga and anime writing are fundamentally engoing this massive decline en masse because ???? and that this will result in them persuing more progressive themes to compensate for bad writing because ????.

Your thesis is entirely dependent upon utter speculation without any actual substance to your claims whatsoever.
You didn't actually read what I wrote. I said that they'd undergo a decline and start pursuing militaristic Abeist tropes.

How about you calm down and stop posting. You're clearly just upset at me for no reason.

Look, what's the point of wanting to bring back the Middle Ages if you can't bring back good old-fashioned scholastic style arguments?

Only, minus any actual effort, because, you know, actually reasoning out your bullshit the way Thomas Aquinas did is hard.
I think I'm going to have to ignore you two.
 
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How about you calm down and stop posting. You're clearly just upset at me for no reason.

A very calm, simple question then- why do you think that the quality of anime and manga is declining? You have that as a premise of your thesis, so I assume this to be true in your opinion, but I have no idea why. As I believe @FortePlus pointed out, you have an increase in production (or at least international awareness) and this can certain create the impression that the field is dominated by dreck, but I know people that tell me about several good manga on basically a daily basis, and I can think of plenty of good anime that have been released recently, so that doesn't really carry much water for me either. You confusingly seemed to question that thesis earlier, so maybe you don't believe it after all? But if you do, what is your basis for that belief?
 
Actually, I don't "have" to do anything.

Correct. You do not. And if people respond to your refusal to adjust your behavior towards them by refusing to adjust their behavior towards you, you should not be surprised.

And yet you clearly are. I am left with the impression that the "freedom" that appears towards the bottom of that goofy little drawing you posted is, as you imagine it, something where you may eat as much cake as you wish, while never having to deal with a bellyache. You, individuals like you, and that is all. Everyone else of course, is lower down the "natural heirarchy" and must make do with their inferior brand of freedom.

And then you wonder at the outrage and the lack of converts.
 
As I believe @FortePlus pointed out, you have an increase in production (or at least international awareness) and this can certain create the impression that the field is dominated by dreck, but I know people that tell me about several good manga on basically a daily basis, and I can think of plenty of good anime that have been released recently, so that doesn't really carry much water for me either.
This actually goes back to the point made about what we call nerd culture, here specifically wrt western anime fandom: change is scary and disturbing. Until recently anime and manga were basically drip fed to this side of the world - the point I was trying to make with "curation". It was about what properties could be sold and which ones would take off, which ones suited dubbing etc. That narrowed what the anime community saw and consumed; even the VHS tape market was super limited in what was on it.

Now thanks to the internet and the rise of rapid globalization, the amount of content we can access (which isn't even close to everything in Japan) is explosive, and the shift in the status quo has shaken the kinds of people who have this false sense of what anime used to be.

And this point can be illustrated with two videogame series that are mirrors of each other; one is treated as good, cool, "rock influenced", and stylish by the mainstream, the other is looked down on as weeb pandering derivative anime trash despite being explicitly inspired by the former. These are Arc System Works franchises Guilty Gear for the former and Blazblue for the latter. It's extremely interesting what perception does to critique, because I don't know why anyone would think Guilty Gear isn't super anime, but here we are!
 
Am I still an idiot for seeing positive portrayals of Japanese Ultranationalism, such as in MuvLuv and Gate, as bad?

Edit: Also, Anime is probably getting better? Its probably better than it ever was. I love giant robots and can put on rose tinted glasses to look at the 70's and 80's all I want... but then I take off those rose tinted glasses and look at stuff like Ginguiser and Dorvack.
 
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