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Zenkyoto : A Brief Overview on the History of Leftism in Japan and its influence on Otaku Culture

MysticSeer said:
(see's @The Name of Love,) YOOOUUUUU!!!

I knew it!

For everyone else I've run into this guy before. And yeah he is every bit as hateful as his stated belifes would suggest. Supervillain in the DCU CK2 quest Superhero
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Go away, meta-bigot. Your moral panic is not welcome here.

In any case, there are people who believe that anime and manga will die because, as they see it, it's going the way of North American comics in being overly reliant on references (or "artificial signs," as he puts it). Given this and the drift towards Abeism, I believe that the Manga/Anime may become a sort of mirror image of the kind of "woke" Marvel comics, where the quality of the stories declines while a political message is pushed in ham-fisted ways, the difference being that a militaristic, nationalist message would be pushed in Japan while a leftist-liberal message was and is being pushed in Marvel. I mean, if stuff like Gate becomes the norm in Japan, I could see a generation of consumers rising up against it. What do you think?
 
Not going to say about that the playing the classic 'AcTuAlLy yOu'Re ThE ReAl rAcIstS' card, except lol.

Your mistake is drawing a false equivalency between political messaging and something being corporate.

True, most Marvel films end up feeling bland and corporate to some degree, it's because they're made by a massive corporation attempting to make sure each installment makes as much money as possible. The most genuine feeling Marvel movies also happen to be the ones with the most obvious and non-subtle political messages, like Thor Ragnarok. And I don't think that's a coincidence.

And frankly, media pushing militarist, nationalist narratives tend to end up sucking on their own. Such worldviews near always end up having to push against the greater human condition, and end up feeling quite soulless as a result.
 
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Oh God, we have an unironic "go woke, go broke" take here about anime and manga. That's hilarious.
 
Suzu said:
Oh God, we have an unironic "go woke, go broke" take here about anime and manga. That's hilarious.
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No, I don't believe in "go woke, go broke." The Left is winning, after all.

Sumeragi said:
The only people who would say this are.... questionable. You could stop showing your true colors.
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What would you rather I pretend to be?

tankdrop24 said:
Not going to say about that the playing the classic 'AcTuAlLy yOu'Re ThE ReAl rAcIstS' card, except lol.

Your mistake is drawing a false equivalency between political messaging and something being corporate.

True, most Marvel films end up feeling bland and corporate to some degree, it's because they're made by a massive corporation attempting to make sure each installment makes as much money as possible. The most genuine feeling Marvel movies also happen to be the ones with the most obvious and non-subtle political messages, like Thor Ragnarok. And I don't think that's a coincidence.

And frankly, media pushing militarist, nationalist narratives tend to end up sucking on their own. Such worldviews near always end up having to push against the greater human condition, and end up feeling quite soulless as a result.
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Um... first of all, I never said you guys were racists, just that some of you are meta-bigots. I posted an entire article on it. I don't believe Leftists can be racist, just as a socialist can't be a capitalist. It's a contradiction in definition.

As for corporations, I believe that they cynically proclaim the political message of whoever's in power or whoever will give them power in order to curry favor with them.
 
MysticSeer said:
Not in Japan, they're not. Or did you not read the orginal thread.
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Well, yes. I did read the original thread. The Left failed in Japan because they didn't abandon Marxism to adopt a new strategy, unlike it did in the West.

What I take "get woke, go broke" to mean is this rather stupid idea that putting left-wing politics (or indeed, any politics) into something is somehow going to make said thing unpopular. It isn't. American comics have declined not because it went woke, but because of the decline in writing quality. The decline in quality came first, and then the wokeness, not the other way around. What I was saying was that some Western commentators argue that the quality of anime/manga is declining, and as it declines, the artists will start trying to insert more blatant politics into the stories. Now, while left-liberalism happened to be the politics that dominated Marvel when it declined, Abeism seems to be set to play the same roll.

TL;DR: it's "go broke, get woke" in America, and in Japan it's "go broke, get militaristic propaganda."
 
The Name of Love said:
Um... first of all, I never said you guys were racists, just that some of you are meta-bigots. I posted an entire article on it. I don't believe Leftists can be racist, just as a socialist can't be a capitalist. It's a contradiction in definition.

As for corporations, I believe that they cynically proclaim the political message of whoever's in power or whoever will give them power in order to curry favor with them.
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First of all, of course leftists can be racists. We're people, people are illogical, contradictory things, not perfect dictionary definitions. The real way to avoid being racist and other forms of being a bigot is to maintain a sense of self-reflection and to be willing to always listen to and accept criticism from the minority groups you claim to care about.

Before you try to turn this back on me, trying to claim that, actually, you're the one who is being persecuted is a pretty classic rhetorical trick by far right people.
 
tankdrop24 said:
First of all, of course leftists can be racists. We're people, people are illogical, contradictory things, not perfect dictionary definitions. The real way to avoid being racist and other forms of being a bigot is to maintain a sense of self-reflection and to be willing to always listen to and accept criticism from the minority groups you claim to care about.

Before you try to turn this back on me, trying to claim that, actually, you're the one who is being persecuted is a pretty classic rhetorical trick by far right people.
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We both have a different definition of racist, then. I define "racism" as "anything a Leftist deems to be evil or bad," essentially.

Saying that you're being persecuted is a classic rhetorical trick by the left too. Whether it's a "rhetorical trick" has no bearing on whether it's true or not, right?

That said, I'm not really persecuted right now. I'm just kind of annoyed.
 
The Name of Love said:
We both have a different definition of racist, then. I define "racism" as "anything a Leftist deems to be evil or bad," essentially.

Saying that you're being persecuted is a classic rhetorical trick by the left too. Whether it's a "rhetorical trick" has no bearing on whether it's true or not, right?

That said, I'm not really persecuted right now. I'm just kind of annoyed.
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That is a very bizarre definition of racism. I suppose you consider yourself a racist, then?
 
The Name of Love said:
I believe that the Manga/Anime may become a sort of mirror image of the kind of "woke" Marvel comics, where the quality of the stories declines while a political message is pushed in ham-fisted ways
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Based on the essay that is that is the focal point of this thread and current animanga sphere trends, why do you think this?

It doesn't track to me. Things like GATE are part of the expanded market, not the thing taking over the industry. Fans still want their more traditional and structured stories. Manga as an industry is still chasing the old ghost of Dragon Ball. Consumer appeal for isekai and isekai accessories is high yes, but this is much like the "basketball is dead because 7 footers can shoot threes now" argument; lacking in evidence, dipped in nostalgia, and ignorant of the actual changes in the world. I pointed out in another thread that the sort of "incel baiting" shows we see getting play pale in comparison to series that will be seen as iconic in a few years time, and which don't have the same elements.
 
FortePlus said:
Based on the essay that is that is the focal point of this thread and current animanga sphere trends, why do you think this?
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I actually don't think that is the case, but I've given the argument a lot of thought. Is there a decline in the quality of anime/manga?

FortePlus said:
It doesn't track to me. Things like GATE are part of the expanded market, not the thing taking over the industry. Fans still want their more traditional and structured stories. Manga as an industry is still chasing the old ghost of Dragon Ball. Consumer appeal for isekai and isekai accessories is high yes, but this is much like the "basketball is dead because 7 footers can shoot threes now" argument; lacking in evidence, dipped in nostalgia, and ignorant of the actual changes in the world. I pointed out in another thread that the sort of "incel baiting" shows we see getting play pale in comparison to series that will be seen as iconic in a few years time, and which don't have the same elements.
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"Incel baiting" is a funny term.

But yes, nostalgia can be blinders. I've also heard arguments that anime hasn't been good since the 90s on the basis that that's when all of the iconic shows were made. That crowd is essentially saying that the shift from zenkyoto-inspired anime to the more modern, nihilistic-consumeristic-inspired anime was the death knell of manga. I personally find that idea more attractive, but I don't think it has merit either, for the reasons you've given.

If you want my honest opinion, I'd say that what's killing anime is the constant rate and amount with which they churn out new material. There's something new capturing the community every season, and that prevents anything from being recognized as a modern classic. And, of course, I believe there's something to Adorno and Horkheimer's argument that capitalism endangers high art just by the way corporations churn out homogenized corporate products like a factory assembly line. If their argument is true, it'd certainly explain a lot of what I see in modern entertainment.
 
The Name of Love said:
If you want my honest opinion, I'd say that what's killing anime is the constant rate and amount with which they churn out new material. There's something new capturing the community every season, and that prevents anything from being recognized as a modern classic.
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Is it though? The thing about there being more content than ever is accurate, and with that comes more mediocrity and low quality content. But fans of anime could point out to shows each year that stand out in some way. I think part of the issue that people have is that because of the way we can acquire anime today, it's not curated like it was in the past. Discourse used to center what was on VHS tapes and rare dubs, then later what was on Toonami and Adult Swim. Looking at the essay again, the cultural shift was still happening during the 1990s, unironically called the golden age of anime by those in the West as it contained the "empty" Evangelion.

It suggests that response to the "decline" of anime is driven by a dislike of what people are seeing now, the actual scope of the anime market. Little quirky and niche things that were supposedly the domain of extreme otaku suddenly weren't. That's not to contradict the OP's material; there is consumer driven change but it looks like there's a dispute over what that change is.
 
FortePlus said:
Is it though? The thing about there being more content than ever is accurate, and with that comes more mediocrity and low quality content. But fans of anime could point out to shows each year that stand out in some way. I think part of the issue that people have is that because of the way we can acquire anime today, it's not curated like it was in the past. Discourse used to center what was on VHS tapes and rare dubs, then later what was on Toonami and Adult Swim. Looking at the essay again, the cultural shift was still happening during the 1990s, unironically called the golden age of anime by those in the West as it contained the "empty" Evangelion.

It suggests that response to the "decline" of anime is driven by a dislike of what people are seeing now, the actual scope of the anime market. Little quirky and niche things that were supposedly the domain of extreme otaku suddenly weren't. That's not to contradict the OP's material; there is consumer driven change but it looks like there's a dispute over what that change is.
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Hm... the author did mention anime is going from being a niche thing to being a mainstream thing. Something similar happened to nerd culture in America. At first, the nerd was the underdog. Next thing you know, you have famous celebrities talking about how they like D&D. Computer nerds used to be geeky losers until Silicon Valley showed us how powerful these geeky losers really were. Do you think that this represents a shift in power, in which the nerd has risen up the food chain? Or do think this is the powerful co-opting niche things because they see a chance to make a profit?
 
The Name of Love said:
Do you think that this represents a shift in power, in which the nerd has risen up the food chain? Or do think this is the powerful co-opting niche things because they see a chance to make a profit?
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Definitely about the money and getting into an "untapped" market with potential for growth. Accessibility to the public (not necessarily accessibility for those disadvantaged) is also key so the parts of nerd culture tapped are the more palatable ones, and the ones that blend into mainstream culture. Nerd culture meanwhile gets a few excuses, but underneath the media adoration is being exposed as having many problematic and outright toxic elements. There are strides made as always to include parts of "nerddom" that are positive and resonate with the "normals" but the power is still definitely in the hands of the industry and corporations.

Outside of entertainment, the so called nerdy guys who got big are just following the boomer capitalist blueprint. It's a new looking group of people in this space but with the same sensibilities as the generation before them, like exploiting the lags in regulation of new technologies and industries or playing shell games with investors and public money. As for celebrities, I think most of them are being honest about their likes, but obviously image and acceptance has a lot to do with what they express in public. Since being an eccentric doesn't work for everyone, nerd stuff being "in" helped a lot with casual talk about those sorts of hobbies. They're human so they have those.
 
FortePlus said:
Definitely about the money and getting into an "untapped" market with potential for growth. Accessibility to the public (not necessarily accessibility for those disadvantaged) is also key so the parts of nerd culture tapped are the more palatable ones, and the ones that blend into mainstream culture. Nerd culture meanwhile gets a few excuses, but underneath the media adoration is being exposed as having many problematic and outright toxic elements. There are strides made as always to include parts of "nerddom" that are positive and resonate with the "normals" but the power is still definitely in the hands of the industry and corporations.

Outside of entertainment, the so called nerdy guys who got big are just following the boomer capitalist blueprint. It's a new looking group of people in this space but with the same sensibilities as the generation before them, like exploiting the lags in regulation of new technologies and industries or playing shell games with investors and public money. As for celebrities, I think most of them are being honest about their likes, but obviously image and acceptance has a lot to do with what they express in public. Since being an eccentric doesn't work for everyone, nerd stuff being "in" helped a lot with casual talk about those sorts of hobbies. They're human so they have those.
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A lot of the "problematic and outright toxic elements" were always there, but were overlooked so long as nerds were kept out of the mainstream. Now that a lot of the things they like have mainstream acceptance, there are a few nerds that followed the "boomer capitalist blueprint" and rose to the top of the hierarchy, and they need to sort of purge the more socially unacceptable elements of their past now that they're in the "in" crowd, if that makes sense.
 
The Name of Love said:
A lot of the "problematic and outright toxic elements" were always there, but were overlooked so long as nerds were kept out of the mainstream. Now that a lot of the things they like have mainstream acceptance, there are a few nerds that followed the "boomer capitalist blueprint" and rose to the top of the hierarchy, and they need to sort of purge the more socially unacceptable elements of their past now that they're in the "in" crowd, if that makes sense.
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100%. The need for a cleaner image and continued social mobility is key so there is a need to discard things that might dull any of that. Things that are seen as "quirky" might be played up or left alone if the public is receptive to it, or if it ultimately doesn't affect too much. Basically exploiting what they can exploit. It doesn't mean there aren't people who actually are passionate about their crafts and technologies, but they're usually not at the front of their companies driving change.

And yeah all of the bad stuff has been around for years, but there's this tribalism that just glosses over it completely to continue the "nerds vs. jocks" culture wars of times past. Which is funny because as far as anime was concerned, they watched the same things.
 
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