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You Are: A sector admiral of a strained imperium.

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[X] Refuse
-[X] "I have no interest in the words of a mouthpiece with no understanding of the situation before her. Upon this Sector and more the NASP can be broken, not in battle, but by their very nature. I will not endanger the Imperium, regardless of who rules it, by giving them unity in a moment of our weakness. You will obey my orders, aid in the execution of this plan, and then we will return to the sector capital. You know that what is said here will not be recorded by my implants and I have no interest in attempting to bring you down when I have no proof. You will suffer in the court of your peers for your conduct today. That is enough."

this is the perfect vote so I am voting now. Seriously @Gunman accepting the deal with what she is offering is not worth it. I could understand accepting the 5 share deal but she is LOW BALLING atm I am betting you she wants to bargain here and if we accept this without a fight she will value our ability and us FAR less than we are worth.

we need to give her a LIGHT counter offer like make it clear we are willing to be bargained down without saying so if we want to really get our values worth here. Just ask for 6-7 and expect to get 4-5.
 
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san said:
we need to give her a LIGHT counter offer like make it clear we are willing to be bargained down without saying so if we want to really get our values worth here. Just ask for 6-7 and expect to get 4-5.
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To be clear a moment here, I'm fully expecting her to get murdered by her father for her abject failure to get us onside, and then for us to get very intimidatingly approached by a different agent of their House. We're not rejecting Arslan, we're rejecting the Viscountess, because all she's done is waste our time. I expect her father to be able to tell the difference. Sucks to be her.
 
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Snowfire said:
To be clear a moment here, I'm fully expecting her to get murdered by her father for her abject failure to get us onside, and then for us to get very intimidatingly approached by a different agent of their House. We're not rejecting Arslan, we're rejecting the Viscountess, because all she's done is waste our time. I expect her father to be able to tell the difference. Sucks to be her.
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I doubt anyone knows we are that good yet. In any case I am suggesting to make a real effort to bargain so that DOES happen if we do choose to take that path not to simply accept. Also I still think the better choice is to outright refuse here.
 
[X] Accept Her Proposal. Agree with her proposal, you are being healthily bribed and a single share from somebody as influential and rich as her could be construed as her being genuinely grateful for your assistance and skill in battle, a noble gesture from a mentee to a mentor and attempt to influence you rather than outright patronage from her house.

Sucks we can't get Shares right now but our position in the coming civil war is of the utmost importance.
 
[X] Refuse
-[X] "I have no interest in the words of a mouthpiece with no understanding of the situation before her. Upon this Sector and more the NASP can be broken, not in battle, but by their very nature. I will not endanger the Imperium, regardless of who rules it, by giving them unity in a moment of our weakness. You will obey my orders, aid in the execution of this plan, and then we will return to the sector capital. You know that what is said here will not be recorded by my implants and I have no interest in attempting to bring you down when I have no proof. You will suffer in the court of your peers for your conduct today. That is enough."

Either this or arresting her is where I am inclined to go.

The added confirmation that the vice-countess is a tool as well just poisons any deal that could be offered.

After all, if she is a tool as the heir then Reinhard could only ever be a lesser one in that situation. I'll pass.
 
[X] Refuse
-[X] "I have no interest in the words of a mouthpiece with no understanding of the situation before her. Upon this Sector and more the NASP can be broken, not in battle, but by their very nature. I will not endanger the Imperium, regardless of who rules it, by giving them unity in a moment of our weakness. You will obey my orders, aid in the execution of this plan, and then we will return to the sector capital. You know that what is said here will not be recorded by my implants and I have no interest in attempting to bring you down when I have no proof. You will suffer in the court of your peers for your conduct today. That is enough."

I made my view clear when I voted for arrest earlier. But the argument that arresting her isn't worth the trouble is pretty good. As well everything I said still applies to this action as well.

Edit: Here is what I wrote earlier for my reasoning.

I don't think I want to aide her in this at all. She has at every opportunity tried to undercut us. When we first met she tried to boost herself up. She then pretended to agree with our plan but never had any intention of following it. I'm pretty sure she intended to use us as a scapegoat for the nuking. She refused to talk with us until we forced her hand. Now she is trying to get us to go against established rules of conduct as if she is in the superior position of power. No this has gone on long enough.
 
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[X] Refuse
-[X] "I have no interest in the words of a mouthpiece with no understanding of the situation before her. Upon this Sector and more the NASP can be broken, not in battle, but by their very nature. I will not endanger the Imperium, regardless of who rules it, by giving them unity in a moment of our weakness. You will obey my orders, aid in the execution of this plan, and then we will return to the sector capital. You know that what is said here will not be recorded by my implants and I have no interest in attempting to bring you down when I have no proof. You will suffer in the court of your peers for your conduct today. That is enough."

Also discords are perfectly fine
 
I've never had a problem with quests having Discord channels, ether I've been very fortunate or the issue is being exaggerated.
 
Gunman said:
@George @buli-buli @Ghazkull @tri2 @Satar @Uhtread @Darth @dragon @Lunamoto @Ruirk @DeltaV11.2 @Ghostdevil @Artificial Girl @PeliusAnar @nat_401 @Decado @Imperator @SirLagginton

Change your vote if your current vote is to Demand.



Demanding is going to fail because we have a less than 26% chance of passing. Either flatly accept her offer, refuse or arrest.

[X] Accept Her Proposal. Agree with her proposal, you are being healthily bribed and a single share from somebody as influential and rich as her could be construed as her being genuinely grateful for your assistance and skill in battle, a noble gesture from a mentee to a mentor and attempt to influence you rather than outright patronage from her house.
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A "fail" result doesn't necessarily mean that we screw things up badly enough to end negotiations or not get what we want. Failure on a diplomacy roll usually means loss of political capital, being forced to make concessions in our actions, sometimes nothing(we failed both etiquette rolls at the govenor's ball, which only gave us a neutral result). My guess is to get a genuinely awful result we'd need to roll 15 or less.

However, knowing she's a tool acting on behalf of her father/some other powerful figure makes me think that the NASP actually is about to finish their armament plan and that inciting the war now is probably the best move. On that note, that she's a tool presenting this case on behalf of someone else seriously raises the stakes on refusal. We need patronage, big time, if we're throwing a deal from a ducal house back at them. I don't think simple refusal is enough to buy us that. And if she's under huge pressure to get the war... she's going to bombard if we refuse. Unless we forcibly stop her, now, I don't think we can prevent that. The planet's defenses have mostly been supressed, and while we might be able to block her shots for now we need to get our fleet in play to avoid her spreading out(We could absolutely kill her in a direct fight with our flag alone, but I suspect that with our fleet here we'll at minimum take damage to other ships).

[X] Demand More. Agree to her proposal in return for five shares, sufficient to make you a baron, along with assurance of strategic command when you openly move to the side of her family in future. This will make it obvious that you are a client of House Arslan, people take note of that level of share transfer. You would be asking for the value of a pair of battlecruisers with screening fast ships or a flotilla of light cruisers, a significant investment even for a rich ducal house.
[X] Accept Surrender. You will take the monitor's surrender, the cadets aboard and their captain fought honourably and should be treated appropriately.

I still want some political capital from capturing the monitor though.
 
Kufufu said:
I've never had a problem with quests having Discord channels, ether I've been very fortunate or the issue is being exaggerated.
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Why isn't it being put to a vote? Why does recent discussion seem to be ignoring the fact that a large portion (majority?) of the user-base doesn't want this? I honestly don't get this at all, and it isn't fair to current voters to just kick it under the table.

This discord thing wasn't something that literally anyone wanted or asked for. Yeah, yeah, I get that Packrat's the QM, but don't the players get any say in this? A few players have been kind enough to PM me Discord transcripts and it looks like the discussion is packed with a certain subset of players :thonk: who get to whisper in the QM's ear and get real-time access to new information while the rest of us are forced to make do.

I'm getting real sick of the endless drama tbh. Can't we just play a normal quest, like the hundreds of other quests on this site, the standard way, with plans and votes and consequences? Without groups of people all out to push their own agenda? Without the recurring nastiness on all sides? Without an unnecessary Discord (that, at best, is the absence of a problem and at worst going to make sure that certain people without Discord, including me, are always going to be a few steps slower on the uptake?)

I don't want to be a bother about this, but I notice @Snowfire had to post quite a few times about glaring issues in the quest before he got any traction with his entirely justified complaints, so I'm going to try this one last post.
 
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Satar said:
Why isn't it being put to a vote? Why does recent discussion seem to be ignoring the fact that a large portion (majority?) of the user-base doesn't want this? I honestly don't get this at all, and it isn't fair to current voters to just kick it under the table.

This discord thing wasn't something that literally anyone wanted or asked for. Yeah, yeah, I get that Packrat's the QM, but don't the players get any say in this? A few players have been kind enough to PM me Discord transcripts and it looks like the discussion is packed with a certain subset of players :thonk: who get to whisper in the QM's ear and get real-time access to new information while the rest of us are forced to make do.

I'm getting real sick of the endless drama tbh. Can't we just play a normal quest, like the hundreds of other quests on this site, the standard way, with plans and votes and consequences? Without groups of people all out to push their own agenda? Without the recurring nastiness on all sides? Without an unnecessary Discord (that, at best, is the absence of a problem and at worst going to make sure that certain people without Discord, including me, are always going to be a few steps slower on the uptake?)

I don't want to be a bother about this, but I notice @Snowfire had to post quite a few times about glaring issues in the quest before he got any traction with his entirely justified complaints, so I'm going to try this one last post.
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Well if you're against a Discord channel just dont use it?
Why would it be a vote? It doesn't affect the quest at all, save for some people discussing the quest in the discord chat instead of in thread.
Either way it hardly affects you or the other questers.
 
Cosmonaut has job, house, garden, senile parents, kids, girlfriends, ex wife, cats, dog, chickens, bunny, and college to keep busy.

Do not punish Cosmonaut for not having time to use Discord.
 
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Kufufu said:
Well if you're against a Discord channel just dont use it?
Why would it be a vote? It doesn't affect the quest at all, save for some people discussing the quest in the discord chat instead of in thread.
Either way it hardly affects you or the other questers.
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having more information about the setting or situation make it easier to get one's plans through, so it absolutely affects people if others who want different things have exclusive information from the discord.
 
Kufufu said:
Well if you're against a Discord channel just dont use it?
Why would it be a vote? It doesn't affect the quest at all, save for some people discussing the quest in the discord chat instead of in thread.
Either way it hardly affects you or the other questers.
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Oh, boy, man, I don't know where to start. In small quests where engagement is low and so are the pre-existing divides between the players, it doesn't hurt to have a Discord. When the divides are large, and the discussion already verging on acrimonious...well, A Dragon of the North is a perfect case study for how vile and corrosive a separate Discord becomes. It can sink a quest. Why?

It maintains and perpetuates an information disequilibrium. People who have the time and energy to get on Discord become far more versed in the lore than the forum-only players. They get to interact the with GM more often, and often build a rapport with him/her that forum-only members struggle to match. Have you heard of the Blue-Eyes Brown-Eyes psychological experiment? Human beings tend to form in-groups and out-groups based on the most trivial cosmetic things. Differential access to information-- differential access to power, really, is one of the strongest dividing lines.

So the Discord in-groups tend to become elitist. They tend to hammer things out on Discord-- it's much faster than the forum-- and vote as a block. That's vote brigading, brother. They develop a sort of dismissive attitude towards forum-only players. Gossip runs rife. The transcripts that Gunman posted and ones that a few of you sent me show the early signs of this process. Discord players are already beginning to obliquely talk about forum-only players. Soon enough it won't be oblique.

Starting a Discord de-facto punishes people who can't-- for any number of reasons-- be on the Discord. Period.

Edit:

It's especially tone-deaf after the Viscount Arc debacle.
 
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Snowfire said:
To be clear a moment here, I'm fully expecting her to get murdered by her father for her abject failure to get us onside, and then for us to get very intimidatingly approached by a different agent of their House. We're not rejecting Arslan, we're rejecting the Viscountess, because all she's done is waste our time. I expect her father to be able to tell the difference. Sucks to be her.
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If she's in that dire straits, she is going to bombard Chuang Mu if we refuse. She has to bring back something to her familiy, and starting the war at least gives her that. At which point we are either going to have to stop her by force, which will put us against house Arslan- even if they'd be inclined to forgive us personally, the political implications of letting us, a commoner, get away with attacking(possibly killing) their heir would prevent it. Or we stand by and let it happen, in which case we are letting Arslan get their plan while aligning ourselves with the Imperials. Also it makes us look weak, which is not really what we need to look when we come back having started(well she did, but we were there and the senior officer) a war.
 
George said:
having more information about the setting or situation make it easier to get one's plans through, so it absolutely affects people if others who want different things have exclusive information from the discord.
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Do people not communicate from Discord to thread?
If not I can see how that would be annoying but surely that's easily fixed?
 
I also disagree with the Discord thing, Never used it, probably never will. That kind of information should be in the Thread anyways.
 
[X] Demand More. Agree to her proposal in return for five shares, sufficient to make you a baron, along with assurance of strategic command when you openly move to the side of her family in future. This will make it obvious that you are a client of House Arslan, people take note of that level of share transfer. You would be asking for the value of a pair of battlecruisers with screening fast ships or a flotilla of light cruisers, a significant investment even for a rich ducal house.

[X] No. You let her go along with her original plan of genocide and refusing surrender to create an atrocity, be it her plan or her fathers.
 
[X] Refuse
-[X] "I have no interest in the words of a mouthpiece with no understanding of the situation before her. Upon this Sector and more the NASP can be broken, not in battle, but by their very nature. I will not endanger the Imperium, regardless of who rules it, by giving them unity in a moment of our weakness. You will obey my orders, aid in the execution of this plan, and then we will return to the sector capital. You know that what is said here will not be recorded by my implants and I have no interest in attempting to bring you down when I have no proof. You will suffer in the court of your peers for your conduct today. That is enough."
Adhoc vote count started by nkd1325 on Sep 11, 2018 at 11:00 PM, finished with 187 posts and 56 votes.
  • [X] Arrest Her. She is attempting conspiracy to treason, broadcast to all ships that she is a traitor then board the Fafnir and take her captive.
    [X] Infrastructure & Surrender. You will limit bombardment of Chuang Mu to infrastructure and take the monitor's surrender. You will seek to provoke the war another way.
    [X] Refuse
    -[X] "I have no interest in the words of a mouthpiece with no understanding of the situation before her. Upon this Sector and more the NASP can be broken, not in battle, but by their very nature. I will not endanger the Imperium, regardless of who rules it, by giving them unity in a moment of our weakness. You will obey my orders, aid in the execution of this plan, and then we will return to the sector capital. You know that what is said here will not be recorded by my implants and I have no interest in attempting to bring you down when I have no proof. You will suffer in the court of your peers for your conduct today. That is enough."
    [X] Demand A Lot More. Agree to her proposal only if she will make you a baron immediately, with another five shares to follow and a guarantee that you will be given strategic command when you openly move to her families' side in the future. Given people will know where the shares come from, this is going to make it obvious that you are a client of House Arslan, but also a terrifyingly valued one. You would be asking for the value of a planet or nearly two squadrons of capital ships, enough to build up House Arslan's navy by at least a fifth and probably a quarter instead.
    [X] Demand More. Agree to her proposal in return for five shares, sufficient to make you a baron, along with assurance of strategic command when you openly move to the side of her family in future. This will make it obvious that you are a client of House Arslan, people take note of that level of share transfer. You would be asking for the value of a pair of battlecruisers with screening fast ships or a flotilla of light cruisers, a significant investment even for a rich ducal house.
    [X] Arrest
    [X] No. You let her go along with her original plan of genocide and refusing surrender to create an atrocity, be it her plan or her fathers.
    [X] Accept Her Proposal. Agree with her proposal, you are being healthily bribed and a single share from somebody as influential and rich as her could be construed as her being genuinely grateful for your assistance and skill in battle, a noble gesture from a mentee to a mentor and attempt to influence you rather than outright patronage from her house.
    [X] Refuse. You will have no part of what is, ultimately, treason and genocide.
    [X] No.
    [X] Accept Her Proposal.
    [X] Accept Surrender. You will take the monitor's surrender, the cadets aboard and their captain fought honourably and should be treated appropriately.
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[X] Refuse
-[X] "I have no interest in the words of a mouthpiece with no understanding of the situation before her. Upon this Sector and more the NASP can be broken, not in battle, but by their very nature. I will not endanger the Imperium, regardless of who rules it, by giving them unity in a moment of our weakness. You will obey my orders, aid in the execution of this plan, and then we will return to the sector capital. You know that what is said here will not be recorded by my implants and I have no interest in attempting to bring you down when I have no proof. You will suffer in the court of your peers for your conduct today. That is enough."
 
Tally
Adhoc vote count started by Kufufu on Sep 11, 2018 at 11:16 PM, finished with 189 posts and 57 votes.
  • [X] Arrest Her. She is attempting conspiracy to treason, broadcast to all ships that she is a traitor then board the Fafnir and take her captive.
    [X] Refuse
    [X] Infrastructure & Surrender. You will limit bombardment of Chuang Mu to infrastructure and take the monitor's surrender. You will seek to provoke the war another way.
    -[X] "I have no interest in the words of a mouthpiece with no understanding of the situation before her. Upon this Sector and more the NASP can be broken, not in battle, but by their very nature. I will not endanger the Imperium, regardless of who rules it, by giving them unity in a moment of our weakness. You will obey my orders, aid in the execution of this plan, and then we will return to the sector capital. You know that what is said here will not be recorded by my implants and I have no interest in attempting to bring you down when I have no proof. You will suffer in the court of your peers for your conduct today. That is enough."
    [X] Demand A Lot More. Agree to her proposal only if she will make you a baron immediately, with another five shares to follow and a guarantee that you will be given strategic command when you openly move to her families' side in the future. Given people will know where the shares come from, this is going to make it obvious that you are a client of House Arslan, but also a terrifyingly valued one. You would be asking for the value of a planet or nearly two squadrons of capital ships, enough to build up House Arslan's navy by at least a fifth and probably a quarter instead.
    [X] Demand More. Agree to her proposal in return for five shares, sufficient to make you a baron, along with assurance of strategic command when you openly move to the side of her family in future. This will make it obvious that you are a client of House Arslan, people take note of that level of share transfer. You would be asking for the value of a pair of battlecruisers with screening fast ships or a flotilla of light cruisers, a significant investment even for a rich ducal house.
    [X] Arrest
    [X] No. You let her go along with her original plan of genocide and refusing surrender to create an atrocity, be it her plan or her fathers.
    [X] Accept Her Proposal. Agree with her proposal, you are being healthily bribed and a single share from somebody as influential and rich as her could be construed as her being genuinely grateful for your assistance and skill in battle, a noble gesture from a mentee to a mentor and attempt to influence you rather than outright patronage from her house.
    [X] Refuse. You will have no part of what is, ultimately, treason and genocide.
    [X] No.
    [X] Accept Her Proposal.
    [X] Accept Surrender. You will take the monitor's surrender, the cadets aboard and their captain fought honourably and should be treated appropriately.
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Satar said:
Oh, boy, man, I don't know where to start. In small quests where engagement is low and so are the pre-existing divides between the players, it doesn't hurt to have a Discord. When the divides are large, and the discussion already verging on acrimonious...well, A Dragon of the North is a perfect case study for how vile and corrosive a separate Discord becomes. It can sink a quest. Why?

It maintains and perpetuates an information disequilibrium. People who have the time and energy to get on Discord become far more versed in the lore than the forum-only players. They get to interact the with GM more often, and often build a rapport with him/her that forum-only members struggle to match. Have you heard of the Blue-Eyes Brown-Eyes psychological experiment? Human beings tend to form in-groups and out-groups based on the most trivial cosmetic things. Differential access to information-- differential access to power, really, is one of the strongest dividing lines.

So the Discord in-groups tend to become elitist. They tend to hammer things out on Discord-- it's much faster than the forum-- and vote as a block. That's vote brigading, brother. They develop a sort of dismissive attitude towards forum-only players. Gossip runs rife. The transcripts that Gunman posted and ones that a few of you sent me show the early signs of this process. Discord players are already beginning to obliquely talk about forum-only players. Soon enough it won't be oblique.

Starting a Discord de-facto punishes people who can't-- for any number of reasons-- be on the Discord. Period.

Edit:

It's especially tone-deaf after the Viscount Arc debacle.
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Unfortunately @Packrat has set his mind on it. :(
 
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