- Location
- Tarn-Vedra
[X] Plan CM 1.0
Let's get this over with. Tally?
Let's get this over with. Tally?
Winter is Coming: House Stark Quest
- Thread starter Charcolt
- Start date
Charcolt
Comic Fan
You don't call the vote.
- Location
- Asia
Driven by Apathy
Formerly known as Brain_Caster
@Charcolt
Will we have to worry about what Cersei might do to Ser Barristan if we don't negotiate for his safe passage? Or has he already left King's Landing?
Anyway, it seems to me that with the hostage issue clarified, plan spudman and plan CM are essentially identical, except for two things plan spudman does which plan CM does not:
It would probably be IC for Ned to want them anyway though. At least saving the bastards is very much the right thing to do and while we don't really need Myrcella as a hostage, Ned has spent enough time in Lannister dungeons to consider them a bigger threat than their current strategical position warrants.
Will we have to worry about what Cersei might do to Ser Barristan if we don't negotiate for his safe passage? Or has he already left King's Landing?
Anyway, it seems to me that with the hostage issue clarified, plan spudman and plan CM are essentially identical, except for two things plan spudman does which plan CM does not:
- Gets Robert's bastards out of King's Landing
- Possibly gets Myrcella as a hostage
It would probably be IC for Ned to want them anyway though. At least saving the bastards is very much the right thing to do and while we don't really need Myrcella as a hostage, Ned has spent enough time in Lannister dungeons to consider them a bigger threat than their current strategical position warrants.
- Location
- Underground
Ugh. I removed the mention of exchange for Myrcella. Though Cersei may ask for one of ours in exchange for her. That would be part of the haggling if there is any, I suppose.
Just so we're clear. I wouldn't be surprised if we get Myrcella for free because Cersei wants her to be safe. And I never had any intention of leaving Sansa in King's Landing.
If it comes down to hostage exchange we could offer one of the hostages we already have. That works for me. A Westerland lord for the Queen's daughter (bastard she may be) isn't a bad deal necessarily. It means
So how about it @Driven by Apathy , @Edkose .
We may get Myrcella for free, and I won't support giving over a Stark or any Northerner if it comes to that. But instead leave it to a hostage exchange roll (if we agree to counter offer) for one of the other hostages.
Edit: Added a bit to the Myrcella part.
Another hostage may be exchanged for her if Cersei counter offers. Not Tywin or Gregor.
Even then, it's a point of a deal that we can drop during the haggling stage if we don't like it.
I think that should address just about everyone's concerns?
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Charcolt
Comic Fan
Ser Barristan Selmy has already left the city. He knew that the Starks were no longer in imminent danger, and at the time nobody thought/dared to stop him.
Ned will default to certain things even if they aren't mentioned directly in a plan, because he's a bit more set in his ways than Robb. That includes protecting Robert's children.
Driven by Apathy
Formerly known as Brain_Caster
[x] Plan spudman
While IMHO strategically it would be best for House Stark to just forget about Robert's bastards and Myrcella, it is very much IC for Ned not to. And OCC it might lead us to interesting places. So the plan has my vote.
- Location
- Mists of Albion
Actually it doesn't address my concern about the future problems having Myrcella could cause, Stannis and Renly aren't going to just let her go, and keeping her could hurt us quite a bit, furthermore hiding her or letting her slip away would cause massive damage to our relations with the king just when winter is rolling in alongside a Horde of tens of thousands of Wildlings and a possible Ironborm invasion. Not to mention any possible food shortages for the really long winter coming will require us to go south for aid, which will cause some issues as they might make sure the price of grain is jacked up or something.
Edit: never mind, you won
- Location
- Underground
Oh. Nevermind that part then.
Jeez...would have been nice to get confirmation on that before regarding the bastards.
Anyway...my plan still has the difference of Myrcella. Possibly for free. Possibly for the low low cost of one of the many lordlings we already have (and we don't have to take that part of the deal if we don't like it).
Besides keeping a genuinely nice Lannister safe...Cersei cares more about her children than anyone (other than herself). That adds some value to her as a hostage even if she is a bastard.
Dark Abstraction
Infrequent Participant
- Location
- United States
I do hate spaghetti posting, so I'm gonna address everything at the bottom.
It's already been clarified by the GM that hostage exchange would involve exchanging Tyrion, Kevan's sons, and/or the lesser Lannister nobility Robb captured, not leaving Stark people in Cersei's clutches.
Do recall that, given the publicly questioned legitimacy of Cersei's children, and the fact that Myrcella's a girl and so behind the boys in the line of succession anyway, getting her is pretty much just insurance against the Lannisters; she's not much of a threat to the Baratheon's legitimacy. And as has been mentioned, Ned can always "disappear" her rather than give her up; this is a medieval society, it's not as if it's easy to track her and prove Ned the liar if he does send her to Essos in secret.
Sansa's not getting ditched, so those people have no leg to stand on anyway.
The Lannisters don't really have the option of not keeping their word, yes, but having Myrcella isn't to make sure they do the deal, it's to make sure that they don't decide to be shits in a couple years, after this whole debacle's ended and they've had some time to recover and nurse their grudges.
(Again, I'm not actually voting for spudman's plan, just clarifying that it's not as bad as people seem to be portraying it as.)
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- Location
- Underground
We wouldn't need to hide her.
If the Baratheons win, Myrcella is a proven bastard and has no claim on the Throne anyway. Sure, they may well kill any Lannisters they can get their hands on in the heat of the moment during the fighting and immediate aftermath, but Myrcella wouldn't be a threat in the aftermath or long term.
If they get THAT upset that she's still alive and are willing to go to war or take other drastic steps, which I highly doubt...the Faith could an option. But tackle that problem IF it comes. And I consider it a big if.
Myrcella is valuable so long as Cersei has any influence in King's Landing and/or Casterly Rock. If Tyrion is ransomed and released he also cares about her well being. Kevan might...*shrug*
I haven't won yet. Still need some votes to go my way or change back.
@godofsmallthings , @Edkose @Captain Hunt Since a lot of the concerns regarding Myrcella have been addressed, how about it? Try for another free hostage...or haggle to exchange her for a lordling (which we can just drop during the haggling stage if we don't like that part).
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NúmenoreanNazgûl
Witch-King
- Location
- Minas Morgul
We could offer to take Myrcella out of harms way. We could even dye her hair and pretend she's Arya so that the Baratheons don't know we have her. It's up to Cersei whether she accepts or not either way, but maybe phrasing it this way might make her more receptive to the plan?
Dark Abstraction
Infrequent Participant
- Location
- United States
Actually, you know, spudman's plan is pretty good. I'm not opposed to it or Crimson Moon's plan winning, but I think getting Myrcella would be a good measure for buying some leverage against Cersei. Worst thing that happens is we trade one or two of Kevan's sons for her, and since he'd be the one leading Lannister forces against Robb, his good will would be useful in that case anyway.
[X] Plan Spudman
[X] Plan Spudman
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- Location
- Spain
[X] Plan Spudman
Random Member
Gardener of Human Happiness
- Location
- Behind You
@Charcolt Where would Myrcella be in the line of succession had she not been a bastard actually? Behind her brothers or behind Stannis and Renly? Because after the Dance, women in line for the Iron Throne might have been placed behind all men in line, but that was for the Targs so....
Or is the law too muddled to offer a precise answer to this?
Or is the law too muddled to offer a precise answer to this?
- Location
- Underground
*sigh* With all the OOC argument for it I think that kind of goes without saying.
But fuck it. I'll add a bit about her being out of harm's way. I don't think those that voted for my plan will care either way, but if it makes you feel better about it.
Here.
[X] Plan spudman
-[X] Jaime will be exchanged for Ned, Sansa, Arya (once found) and any of his men still imprisoned by Lannisters. Robert's bastards and any family will have safe passage along with Ned's party. The other noble hostages stay with the army as 'insurance'. Tyrion or Kevan's sons' release can be negotiated if Cersei makes a counter-offer.
-[X] The North and Riverlands will also receive fair compensation directly from Casterly Rock's coffers for the damage caused and men lost.
-[X] You will also be given back Ice, that book 'proving' Cersei's incest and Littlefinger's head right the hell now.
-[X] The Northern host will not march on King's Landing (for a number of months to be determined).
-[X] Myrcella as a hostage. It also gets her out of harm's way. Another hostage may be exchanged for her if Cersei counter offers. Not Tywin or Gregor.
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Dark Abstraction
Infrequent Participant
- Location
- United States
I imagine that it'd work out the same way the Targs would have done it, since the legitimacy of Robert's claim to the throne was due to his grandmother being a Targ. But she probably would have been expected to marry into another family for political purposes before pressing a claim for the throne herself, so she probably wouldn't end up in the running in the first place, outside very unusual circumstances.
Charcolt
Comic Fan
Succession laws can be more flexible in times of chaos. Myrcella was considered Tommen's heir in the books. While it's likely Cersei would change the succession laws to place her daughter before an uncle or other relation, there's no mention of her doing so which suggests the Baratheons continued the practice of Agnatic-Cognatic Primogeniture they used prior to taking the throne and threw out the old Targaryen tradition (very in character for Robert and Cersei both I'd say).
That said, even a legitimate Myrcella would have a tough time becoming (and staying) queen without an army close by or a very stable kingdom. Women rulers don't have it easy.
- Location
- United States
Thank god. Spudman was making me really worried there.
- Location
- Underground
You're a bit behind in the discussion...if getting Myrcella requires a hostage (it may not! we may get her for free if Cersei thinks she's safer with honorable to a fault Ned Stark than in King's Landing), it'll be giving one of the hostages we already have. Even then it would be part of the haggling. So not set in stone.
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Driven by Apathy
Formerly known as Brain_Caster
Possibly. But I suspect Cersei doesn't really understand that even House Lannister's wealth is limited. She'll consider any demand for monetary reparations a trifling issue to be solved by throwing some of her House's supposedly infinite reserve of gold at it.
It's not like Tywin's around to inform her that the mines have run dry (if they even have - is this show or book canon?). Kevan probably knows, but it doesn't seem like he'll be directly involved in the negotiations. Hopefully by the time he informs her, the deal will have been made... and Myrcella will be in Stark hands, giving Cersei a powerful incentive to keep to the terms agreed. And House Stark would never know that the Lannister can barely afford to pay.
Heh. That would be a rather amusing way for things to work out.
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- Location
- United States
Or it could blow up in our face because Cersei refuses to part with Myrcella? You're acting like this has no risks attached and that if the roll to get Myrcella fails everything will be completely fine with the rest of the negotiations.