Sansa managed to get out because Littlefinger was positioned well enough to smuggle her out during a crisis.
Winter is Coming: House Stark Quest
- Thread starter Charcolt
- Start date
Sansa managed to get out because Littlefinger was positioned well enough to smuggle her out during a crisis.
Then if not the Martells, we should try to get someone else who's well positioned to get Ned and Sansa out when the opportunity presents itself. I just feel that even a backup covert rescue plan is better than to trust in the sanity of Cersei and Joffrey to not take Ned's or Sansa's head when they're cornered.
- Location
- Mists of Albion
So he wasn't penalised due to respect when he marched on the Eyrie itself, but he would be declared war on for marrying his daughter to a House heavily associated to his own that's popular in the Vale and already is associated heavily with the ruling regent due to being related to that regent?
That's makes no sense to me can you explain in more detail how that works?
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First, when Bronze Yohn marched on the Eyrie Littlefinger had everything perfectly under control - he was going to fuck them over diplomatically thanks to Corbray, why escalate things when it wasn't necessary?
Second, whenever foreign influence comes into play everyone always gets a bit touchy, and the situation in the Vale is quite strained already. It wouldn't take much to assume Yohn wants to see Robin trained by Robb, which would basically put the Vale under the control of House Stark. Or if you want an analogy - what would people think if one of the candidates for American presidency was suspected of entertaining uncomfortably close ties with a foreign country?
Also, "associated heavily"? Lysa? Who hasn't seen Cat and Edmure since forever?
Just because you're family it doesn't mean you're actually close. Cersei and Tyrion prove that as well.
- Location
- Brazil
Oh. I'm sorry. Did you miss that in Canon that the Lord Declarants didn't actually get shit? Why? Because Petyr had Arryn. End of the story. They couldn't move against him unless they took control of him. And guess what? That's exactly what they tried to do and couldn't. There's also the fact that while Lysa was alive no one moved against her despite her being cray cray and refusing to join the war. So no. I'm right, you're wrong.
Lysa is an Arryn for all effects. That's how marriage specially in very Patriarchal societies work. You join your husband's family and are now part of them. If you're important enough you can retain your first surname, but you're part of your husband family. That's why Cersei keeping the Lion and pose as if she were still a Lannisters was seeing as both incredibly arrogant and insulting. Robert just didn't care. So no. The Lord of Vales wont just give you control of them just because you asked them and are tangentially related. Succession doesn't work like that. Note that Petyr only tenous hold was that married into the Arryns so to say. Not the other way around. He was using Lysa's proxy power from her previous marriage.
Unless you can prove that the Royce's were planning rebellion against LYSA, your argument isnt I'm anyway wat feasible. You're also remembering things wrong since they didn't hate Lysa, just disliked being kept out of the war and thought she was being coward but they even had a cousin trying to marry her.
This is delusional. This is also dumb. If Aerys I BURN LIVE PEOPLE Targaryen wasn't considered insane enough to be removed by part of his vassals until he burned their family for the lols, Lysa delusions and paranoia are far, faaaaaaaaaar from a reason to remove her specially for a complete stranger. Lysa is an Arryn and that's what matters. Their oaths of fealty are to her and Little Robin.
- Location
- Mists of Albion
Warning For Marginal Behavior
First, Littlefinger is too distant to be a factor here and he can't pull his shit on them and he doesn't yet have the power to cause a civil war, as mentioned already Lysa can't strike against us without becoming an attempted Kinslayer and she can't play politics to save her life.
Second that foreign influence is from a House with very deep ties to the Eyrie, Ned Stark wa a raised there, a Valeman died alongside Brandon and our Grandfather, the Vale fought a rebellion alongside us and the idea of fighting alongside house Stark was a popular one even after Robb was dead and the Boltons in charge, as we see via Baelish's plan for the Vale to declare for Sansa. Thus the idea of us being Russia in your analogy is highly, highly unlikely, it's like Americans being concerned with Theresa May's associations with Trump really when you look at the history and political climate.
Family, Duty, Honour are the words of her original house, that means a lot in Westeros and familial associations were strong enough to give Cat some leverage in the Vale and us a lot of leverage in yet Riverlands. She can't attack us directly without being a Kinslayer, and if she attacks a House Royce bound by marriage to us that exactly the same thing, she'd be pushed out the regency very quickly if she was mad and an attempted Kinslayer
Oh I'm sorry did you miss the fact that in Cannon and in this quest he's stuck months away in Kings Landing?
No they'll give you control because you offer them highly profitable and notable marriages and the fact Lysa is insane and unpopular does help a lot.
There's also the facts that Tywin was still kicking for much of that time and they had no major incentives such as marriages....
To try and take the regency from her and gain power, that's why she was seen as desirable, she'd give legitimacy and power to any house she married, as we saw with Baelish's rise, people actively didn't like her however.
Their oaths of fealty are to Robin. Not Lysa, who isn't as mad as Aerys, but Aerys was a Targaryen, by birth not marriage, picking on Crownlanders who couldn't rebel without the rest of the Kingdoms attacking, and even then there's the belief that the Lords Paramount were going to throw a coup despite that fact Aerys madness only affected Tywin and and Crownlands for much of his rule, Aerys madness being focussed and stopped by Tywin. So those are two very different situations, especially as Post Aerys people seem to be far more cautious of mad rulers, otherwise Joffery wouldn't have been kept on such as tight leash.
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You don't actually need Baelish to cause civil war in that case?
All you need are a crazy Lysa who thinks Cat wants to take her baby boy away from her and Vale knights unwilling to see Nothern influence in their domain.
Fighting alongside doesn't mean being House Stark's bitch - that's what many Valesmen would fear if Robin was under Robb's thumb. Also, Northerners are filthy degenrates worshipping trees, the many, many pious knights will love that fact.
Last but not least, Sansa is a woman in a patriarchal society. If you think her political weight is the same as Robb, male King of the North...well, I can't say anything but we're done here.
Wow, shaming people. Such leverage, especially considering what she accomplished - nothing at all.
And you keep using the word 'Kinslayer' incorrectly - you're considered such if you slay aka kill family members, not if you simply declare war/defend yourself/attack them.
- Location
- Mists of Albion
And then she becomes an attempted Kinslayer which gets her ignored or desposed aside from a minority of supporters
I don't get what your trying to say here. Are you saying that the Vale would raise their sword in a far far far worse tactical situation for a woman but not for a man who has singlehanded broken the hated Lannisters for minimal losses? Because that means I am certainly done here. A marriage of Robb and Sansa to the Vale at this point is far more valuable than just Sansa when Baelish Cannon Plan kicked in.
Being Allies not bitches, being friends not idiots, and Robin is our Kin, we can't really hurt him all that much can we?
So her declaring war (that she wants to kill us with her armies) doesn't make her an attempted Kinslayer?
What's your definition of it then?
And to turn your own point against you, you claim the Vale wouldn't like us because of religion and that they are oh so pious and chivalrous, well attempted Kinslaying is one of the biggest wrongs for both of those things, thus your own argument shows how mere 'shaming' is a hell of a lot more than just words
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- Location
- Brazil
Warning For Marginal Behavior: Be more civil!
Stannis and Renly aren't kinslayers, and they're at war. You're only a kinslayer if your personally kill family. I'm also what kind of leverage we get from screaming the Tully's words at people, and really, again you have this delusions that everyone loves House Stark just because you want that. Can you prove that the Starks are that popular? Also you quoting me are fucking moronice since you're removing context. Your final plane is just a lie. You couldn't back up any of your claims with facts. "A HIGHLY PROFITABLE MARRIAGE" Oooh, so that's your new line argument, since BUT WE KEWL didn't work. Keep moving the goalposts. And their oaths of fealty aren't to just Robin but to the ARRYN family, and Lysa is recognized as the regent of her son, so yes, the're directly loyal to her too.
His definition is the correct one. Unless you can find a quote proving your view. Here what GRRM said about Kinslaying "There are degrees in kinslaying, as in anything else. Fighting a battle in which a brother dies might be frowned upon, but killing him with your own hand would be considered far worse", so it involves direct clashes. So please, stop lying.
No, people would expect the latter to control in some manner the Vale should he win a power struggle against Lysa. The former would simply be the Vale's ticket to have a lot of power over the North instead because she's a woman and the North isn't in the best position at that point of ASOIAF.
Also, the whole Kinslayer stuff?
I already provided a definition, one supported by canon - was Daeron II accused of Kinslaying when he fought against his brother? Was any of the later Targaryen kings called a Kinslayer for fighting family? No. Bloodraven was accused as such only when he killed Daemon and his sons, plus Aenys.
Besides, the notion that an army has to kill the opposite leader is fairly flawed - Tywin is very much alive, isn't he? A war doesn't need to end with your opponent's death, only with his defeat.
- Location
- Mists of Albion
That's because it was being pinned on Brienne in cannon and they haven't fought each other yet or even declared true war against each other yet.
So are we just ignoring the examples I gave of Northern closeness to the Vale and of cannon support the Vale had for the North, Lords pushing to join Robb and the whole Vale rising for Sansa in Baelish's plans?
I don't know what word you're trying to say here but it seems insulting.
Maybe you just misspelled moron.
Ironic.
I'm going to redirect you to the part where she is a Tully, with the Tully looks and is Arryn by marriage, it's enough to give her power but incentives can make that powers hold far lesser, Catelyn was still counted by many as a Tully.
I'm not in a plane and I'm not lying mate, cool down on the misspelled insults here.
So ordering your armies to murder your relative wouldn't count in any degree of kinslaying?
Oh wait it's mentioned on your own quote on Kinslaying that just being on the opposite side of a battle is considered kinslaying, I wonder what giving the order to have that battle with the specific goal of killing them counts as?
Also this is the Vale, I've already gone over why it's extra bad to be a Kinslayer there.
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1. Family back.
2. Independent kingdom, if possible.
3. Heads of our enemies on pikes.
- Location
- Mists of Albion
And the fact they have to war against the Lannisters and the rest of the realm to get the power? They ally with us then they suddenly have influence over the North and Riverlands alliance, similar to the amount we have on them. Not as much gain as they'd get for rising up for cannon Sansa, but it's at a far far far lesser risk.
So you're saying they would basically fight a near unwinnable war to have power over the North and Riverlands but would have a civil war if the greatest general in recent Westerosi history rolled up to them and offered them less influence, but still outside influence over those same areas, if they joined his coalition, which is utterly dominating at the moment?
They'd get Sansa, Robin is our kin and we can't hurt him and they want to join the war anyway.
In comparison they'd be fighting a Frey controlled Riverlands, Bolton controlled North, Lannnister controlled Stormlands, Crowmlands and Westerlands alongside a Tyrell controlled Reach? All so they can directly control the ruined North and Riverlands?
That sounds like fun
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- Location
- United States
1. Family back
2. In a position where our enemies can't afford to attack us
3. Cersei and Joffrey dead
4. Someone halfway sane on the Iron Throne
Independence doesn't really interest me until after we've already won the war.
Driven by Apathy
Formerly known as Brain_Caster
On titles:
Robb Stark the Winter Storm
Or, alternatively:
Robb Stark the Winterwind
Like a violent winter storm he came down from the north, his icy grip the doom of anyone unlucky enough to be caught in the open. Poor, foolish Lannisters. They should have paid more attention to the weather.
Associations:
Ice, Winter - House Stark; this one's obvious. "Winter is coming" and all that.
Storm, Wind - Robert Baratheon of Storm's End during the rebellion - the storm king for whom Eddard Stark named his firstborn son. Not the fat Robert of later years and sad reality, but the militarily formidable warrior king Robert of popular imagination.
Robb Stark the Winter Storm
Or, alternatively:
Robb Stark the Winterwind
Like a violent winter storm he came down from the north, his icy grip the doom of anyone unlucky enough to be caught in the open. Poor, foolish Lannisters. They should have paid more attention to the weather.
Associations:
Ice, Winter - House Stark; this one's obvious. "Winter is coming" and all that.
Storm, Wind - Robert Baratheon of Storm's End during the rebellion - the storm king for whom Eddard Stark named his firstborn son. Not the fat Robert of later years and sad reality, but the militarily formidable warrior king Robert of popular imagination.
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- Location
- Mists of Albion
1. Family and Ice back
2. For us to stay alive
3. For the Vale to get involved in our coalition
Driven by Apathy
Formerly known as Brain_Caster
Pretty much this.
Our main objective, for now, should be to get back Ned (if still alive), Sansa and Arya while we let the Baratheons fight it out. Grand plans to become hegemon of Westeros miss the point.
Prince Ire
Section XIII
- Location
- the Universe
Why would no Whitewalkers butterfly away the dragons?
- Location
- Brazil
Trying to become ruler of Westeros would backfire spectacularly if we try that now.
1- Get our family members back. Arya is missing but we don't know that, while Sansa is Cersei's trump card. Ned is probably going to die. Our sisters, Ned's body and Ice are our main priorities.
To get them back we would need a hostage exchange. Jaime is actually by far the best one for that. Cersei is obsessed with him and he is much less competent than Tywin or Tyrion. I would suggest going through Kevan and Cersei in parallel. We should try to do it before a siege in KL happens and throws everything to shit. Arya should still be around in the city by now. This situation may or may not change soon. Either way, speed is of essence.
2- Securing the Riverlands. That means moping up the roving bands of bandits and marauders, making the peasantry feel safe again and reestablishing the burned keeps when possible, while setting up a communication with the borders to ensure we're not caught by surprise by any army, from the Ironborns to either Baratheons. This will give us more liberty to set up camp without worries to scramble if an attack happens and we can get the farms producing food again, which is vital.
We need to establish a strong and good relationship with Edmure, he is crucial to this. We can't let him out of the loop sometimes like Canon Robb did. His failures no standing, he is competent enough, is a good leader, widely liked and is loyal and well meaning.
3- Food and Loot and Glory. Those are the three things that move armies. We don't have that plenty in the Riverlands anymore. But guess where we can find it? The mostly unprotected West. I don't think we can afford to overextend and try to take Casterly Rock. But with the main Lannisters branch in our power, the West is already deeply demoralized. We take the Golden Tooth, it's mine and it's vital strategic position and we seal the West as corraled in a desperate defensive war. Further steps can wait. The Golden Tooth also gives us something we lack, a strong defensive position that closes off a venue of attack.
I can't ignore those examples since all you did was say that they did that instead of offering proof. Like you said about everyone hating Lysa. You keep saying that without backing it up. I can't ignore what you don't show.
Your redirect me to your bullshit. That literally means nothing. And oh. How cute. You're now appealing to grammar since you don't have a lick to stand on. While misspelling canon just above. Cute. And you end with pretending you didn't drastically change goalposts. Le shock.
1- Get our family members back. Arya is missing but we don't know that, while Sansa is Cersei's trump card. Ned is probably going to die. Our sisters, Ned's body and Ice are our main priorities.
To get them back we would need a hostage exchange. Jaime is actually by far the best one for that. Cersei is obsessed with him and he is much less competent than Tywin or Tyrion. I would suggest going through Kevan and Cersei in parallel. We should try to do it before a siege in KL happens and throws everything to shit. Arya should still be around in the city by now. This situation may or may not change soon. Either way, speed is of essence.
2- Securing the Riverlands. That means moping up the roving bands of bandits and marauders, making the peasantry feel safe again and reestablishing the burned keeps when possible, while setting up a communication with the borders to ensure we're not caught by surprise by any army, from the Ironborns to either Baratheons. This will give us more liberty to set up camp without worries to scramble if an attack happens and we can get the farms producing food again, which is vital.
We need to establish a strong and good relationship with Edmure, he is crucial to this. We can't let him out of the loop sometimes like Canon Robb did. His failures no standing, he is competent enough, is a good leader, widely liked and is loyal and well meaning.
3- Food and Loot and Glory. Those are the three things that move armies. We don't have that plenty in the Riverlands anymore. But guess where we can find it? The mostly unprotected West. I don't think we can afford to overextend and try to take Casterly Rock. But with the main Lannisters branch in our power, the West is already deeply demoralized. We take the Golden Tooth, it's mine and it's vital strategic position and we seal the West as corraled in a desperate defensive war. Further steps can wait. The Golden Tooth also gives us something we lack, a strong defensive position that closes off a venue of attack.
Stop spaghetti posting me so you can take out the quotes of context and distort them. You're also lying again. Before it was just declaring war is kinslaying. Then going to any battle. Now it's them going to battle personally. Keep moving the goalposts.
I can't ignore those examples since all you did was say that they did that instead of offering proof. Like you said about everyone hating Lysa. You keep saying that without backing it up. I can't ignore what you don't show.
Your redirect me to your bullshit. That literally means nothing. And oh. How cute. You're now appealing to grammar since you don't have a lick to stand on. While misspelling canon just above. Cute. And you end with pretending you didn't drastically change goalposts. Le shock.
- Location
- Brazil
Why you want to suck up Dorne so much? What did they do that makes us want to like them so badly? What's their use even? Or what, you think that Doran who didn't lift a finger to avenge his sister and niece and nephew will just day fuck it and throw their lot with us for killing a Mook they didn't like in a fight that had nothing to do with us? Why?
- Location
- Spain
I would say that taking Casterly Rock, and a great number of places in the West, would be extremely easy at this point. There is no chance in hell that the West can put together an army capable of matching Robb´s with so little time, and taking many of its keeps would be as simple as issuing the classic siege ultimatum (surrender immediately or we will start beheading the hostages)
Shapeless Phobos
Filthy Casual
Maybe Wolf's Teeth for Robb's Elites? Could even have it be Blackwood's completely unbiased suggestion. Or Winter's Teeth, Frostguard, or things like that.
As for Robb's own nickname...I kind of like the Winterwind suggestion and it's reasoning. Also it goes well with his direwolf's name. Could even be made into Robb's own song(Which my mind may or may not be trying to compose to much failure).