- Location
- United States
He wouldn't dare do anything. We're in the castle, yes, but if he breaks guest right and attacks us or imprisons us, our army will burn the Twins to the ground.
Winter is Coming: House Stark Quest
- Thread starter Charcolt
- Start date
- Location
- Too Deep in the Midnight Sea
[X] Go in person to negotiate your crossing.
- Location
- MURICA
They want Robb dead so they can play Roose Bolton?
I assume you haven't read BBQ aka Bobby Baratheon Quest if you wonder such a thing.
Let's say that the Crack tag is here for reasons. Glorious, mind-blowing and totally crazy reasons.
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NuclearConsensus
Herald of the Thorned One
- Location
- the Philippines
[X] Send Lord Bolton and Lord Umber to negotiate your crossing. Roose has a reputation that would make any number of Walders wary of him, and if there's one person you can trust to fuck up people on your behalf, it's the Greatjon.
In_lurk_shadow
[ ]
- Location
- here and there
[X] Send Lord Bolton and Lord Umber to negotiate your crossing. Roose has a reputation that would make any number of Walders wary of him, and if there's one person you can trust to fuck up people on your behalf, it's the Greatjon.
- Location
- Who knows?
Whoooo ground zero for a new Charcolt quest! I'm leaning towards.
[X]Send Lord Bolton and Lord Umber to negotiate your crossing. Roose has a reputation that would make any number of Walders wary of him, and if there's one person you can trust to fuck up people on your behalf, it's the Greatjon.
I wonder we could include opening negotiations with something like guaranteeing their right to the river while insinuating that there are plans to create another crossing or semthing else in an effort to blindside Walder from immediate marriage shenanigans.
[X]Send Lord Bolton and Lord Umber to negotiate your crossing. Roose has a reputation that would make any number of Walders wary of him, and if there's one person you can trust to fuck up people on your behalf, it's the Greatjon.
I wonder we could include opening negotiations with something like guaranteeing their right to the river while insinuating that there are plans to create another crossing or semthing else in an effort to blindside Walder from immediate marriage shenanigans.
Voting for this for now...
[X] Send Lord Bolton and Lord Umber to negotiate your crossing. Roose has a reputation that would make any number of Walders wary of him, and if there's one person you can trust to fuck up people on your behalf, it's the Greatjon.
This makes sense. Lord Bolton is scary as fuck, and Lord Umber is loyal. Roose will negotiate seriously, and Lord Umber's presence will keep any scheming on his part to a minimum.
People voting to go in person... that's fucking nuts. Without guest right - which we won't officially have unless he offers bread and salt - he can just nab us, throw us in the dungeon, and tell our army that if they attack that he'll kill us. He may well be willing to risk it if he thinks he can get greater reward from the Lannisters by handing us over, because even if our army tries to storm the castle all he has to do is hold out long enough for the Lannister army to arrive and break them. Taking a castle by storm is not a simple matter, and it's a crapshoot whether it could be done.
And if we have guest right... well, we all know how Walder Frey gives no fucks about guest right.
Going into the castle ourself puts us into a massively inferior bargaining position. We'd not only have to agree to marry a Frey, but probably something else equally bad if not worse on top of it.
[X] Send Lord Bolton and Lord Umber to negotiate your crossing. Roose has a reputation that would make any number of Walders wary of him, and if there's one person you can trust to fuck up people on your behalf, it's the Greatjon.
This makes sense. Lord Bolton is scary as fuck, and Lord Umber is loyal. Roose will negotiate seriously, and Lord Umber's presence will keep any scheming on his part to a minimum.
People voting to go in person... that's fucking nuts. Without guest right - which we won't officially have unless he offers bread and salt - he can just nab us, throw us in the dungeon, and tell our army that if they attack that he'll kill us. He may well be willing to risk it if he thinks he can get greater reward from the Lannisters by handing us over, because even if our army tries to storm the castle all he has to do is hold out long enough for the Lannister army to arrive and break them. Taking a castle by storm is not a simple matter, and it's a crapshoot whether it could be done.
And if we have guest right... well, we all know how Walder Frey gives no fucks about guest right.
Going into the castle ourself puts us into a massively inferior bargaining position. We'd not only have to agree to marry a Frey, but probably something else equally bad if not worse on top of it.
- Location
- United States
It's not nearly as insane as you believe. Walder Frey doesn't want Robb dead, he wants prestige and he wants one of his daughters married to the King in the North, and he wants anything else he can weasel out of the negotiations. He can't do that unless he offers us bread and salt to start negotiations in the first place.
As for taking the castle, yes, it's not a simple matter at all, but we know and Frey knows that if Robb doesn't return safely from the Twins the entire northern army will go berserk. They won't stop until they see every Frey dead.
What would happen if we go in person is Walder probably either calls us stupid for coming in person or arrogant, doesn't matter which since he insults us either way, and then we remind him that negotiations won't take place without bread and salt which he'll give us because he wants us to give him things too.
EDIT: Although if you see Roslin Frey as an unacceptable compromise I understand why you want Roose and Greatjon to go in our place.
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- Location
- Australia
[X] Send Lord Bolton and Lord Umber to negotiate your crossing. Roose has a reputation that would make any number of Walders wary of him, and if there's one person you can trust to fuck up people on your behalf, it's the Greatjon.
- Location
- Tel'aran'rhiod
King of the north hasn't happened yet mate
- Location
- United States
You know what I meant. Married to Robb.
- Location
- nz
[X] Send Lord Bolton and Lord Umber to negotiate your crossing. Roose has a reputation that would make any number of Walders wary of him, and if there's one person you can trust to fuck up people on your behalf, it's the Greatjon.
- Location
- New York
[X] Send Lord Bolton and Lord Umber to negotiate your crossing. Roose has a reputation that would make any number of Walders wary of him, and if there's one person you can trust to fuck up people on your behalf, it's the Greatjon.
Given how early this is in the timeline, I don't think we have the prestige to assure either safety or success by negotiating in person. Though the main downside in sending anyone not of our family is the issue of offering concessions to the Freys from the side of House Stark, as opposed to concessions by Houses Umber or Bolton.
Given how early this is in the timeline, I don't think we have the prestige to assure either safety or success by negotiating in person. Though the main downside in sending anyone not of our family is the issue of offering concessions to the Freys from the side of House Stark, as opposed to concessions by Houses Umber or Bolton.
It's exactly as insane as I believe it to be. Going will show him that we're stupid and arrogant, and one way or another he will make us pay for our stupidity and arrogance. Here's how...
1. Due to his greater leverage from having us in his power, he will not only demand the marriage but he'll demand something else on top of it. So if you're willing to accept the marriage for a crossing, just send Catelyn and be done with it.
2. He'll decide that we're too stupid and arrogant to risk backing, because we're clearly an idiot for putting ourself in his power. At best he decides to just kick us out and wash his hands of it. Alternatively he takes us hostage, guest right or no - he can just deny ever having given us bread and salt, and nobody will be able to prove otherwise.
And yeah, our army will be pissed if he takes us hostage, but even if they go berserk that's not a guarantee that he'll lose. Far from it. The Twins are a rather formidable fortress, or more accurately two and a half formidable fortresses. Taking it by storm will not be easy, even with a five to one numerical advantage. First, we'd have to take the eastern Twin, which is a good castle with high curtain walls, a deep moat, a barbican and a portcullis, so the castle is basically an island castle. But let's suppose our army, in a berserker rage (which, by the way, is a terrible condition to be in for a castle offensive, due to the disruption of discipline), manages to somehow breach it and start flooding in after taking the grievous casualties one would expect when storming a well defended castle. Do the Freys admit their defeat and throw down their arms? No. They withdraw their forces across the bridge. The Northern forces then have to march themselves across the bridge, but they'll be opposed. Half way across the bridge is the Water Tower, which has arrow slits to kill people coming down the nice bridge killzone, portcullises that would need to be broken through to keep them there, and murder holes to start dropping boiling oil on them when they manage to start getting through them. But ok, after taking even more grievous casualties getting through that miniature fortress guess what? They get to go through the whole thing again, since they've got another nice, narrow killzone to go through in order to get to the western Twin, which they they then have to somehow storm, and at that point they have to do it tired and battered while the Freys will now fight completely to the death since they don't have a good retreat available without abandoning their home. And oh, if they succeed they'll need to refortify everything before the Lannisters arrive, because if you've wrecked the defenses then their army will have an easy time getting through to catch up to slaughter whatever remains of the Northern army.
There's a reason the Lannister army didn't try to take the Twins in canon, even with part of the Frey army having left to join up with Robb.
Current tally.
Vote Tally : Winter is Coming: House Stark Quest | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 3-46]
##### NetTally 1.9.8
[X] Go in person to negotiate your crossing.
No. of Votes: 15
[X] Send Lord Bolton and Lord Umber to negotiate your crossing. Roose has a reputation that would make any number of Walders wary of him, and if there's one person you can trust to fuck up people on your behalf, it's the Greatjon.
No. of Votes: 13
[X] Attempt to take the Twins by force or guile.
-[X] Promise Black Walder the lordship of the Twins if he opens the gates for your army.
No. of Votes: 2
[X] Send someone else to negotiate your crossing.
-[X] The Blackfish
No. of Votes: 1
[X] Attempt to take the Twins by force or guile.
-[X] Make it seem as if your forces are retreating and taking another, longer way to the South. Consult with your uncle as to the question of who will have to die amongst the Freys that either a) they will go and support their rightful liege in liberating the Riverlands or b) they will fight amongst themselves so that their forces are divided and easy to defeat. Then send in your best men or women in the guise of kitchen help and poison those you have chosen to die. Then the remaining Freys will either join you or your men on the inside will open the gates and let your army, a part of which should be nearby, inside to take the Twins as yours. As the Freys have discarded their honor and have not joined the Tullys in the defense of the Riverlands, they are neither good and trustworthy allies nor are they someone you have to be honorable with. This is war. This is about saving your family. And the Freys are in your way.
No. of Votes: 1
Total No. of Voters: 32
##### NetTally 1.9.8
[X] Go in person to negotiate your crossing.
No. of Votes: 15
[X] Send Lord Bolton and Lord Umber to negotiate your crossing. Roose has a reputation that would make any number of Walders wary of him, and if there's one person you can trust to fuck up people on your behalf, it's the Greatjon.
No. of Votes: 13
[X] Attempt to take the Twins by force or guile.
-[X] Promise Black Walder the lordship of the Twins if he opens the gates for your army.
No. of Votes: 2
[X] Send someone else to negotiate your crossing.
-[X] The Blackfish
No. of Votes: 1
[X] Attempt to take the Twins by force or guile.
-[X] Make it seem as if your forces are retreating and taking another, longer way to the South. Consult with your uncle as to the question of who will have to die amongst the Freys that either a) they will go and support their rightful liege in liberating the Riverlands or b) they will fight amongst themselves so that their forces are divided and easy to defeat. Then send in your best men or women in the guise of kitchen help and poison those you have chosen to die. Then the remaining Freys will either join you or your men on the inside will open the gates and let your army, a part of which should be nearby, inside to take the Twins as yours. As the Freys have discarded their honor and have not joined the Tullys in the defense of the Riverlands, they are neither good and trustworthy allies nor are they someone you have to be honorable with. This is war. This is about saving your family. And the Freys are in your way.
No. of Votes: 1
Total No. of Voters: 32
- Location
- United States
I mean, in canon sending Catelyn accomplished:
That's a hell of a lot more than just a marriage for Robb. That's the reason that literally nobody is voting to send Catelyn.
Or he'll see what he can get out of negotiating? He's an opportunist. We're the biggest opportunity he's going to get. Yes, he'll definitely be tempted by what the Lannisters can offer him, but one of his sons is already married to Genna Lannister and ever since Tywin rose to power he's consistently rebuffed the Freys out of retribution. They're not going to offer Walder anything more than he's already gotten. No marriages, no fosterings, nothing. They might pay him like a common whore, but that's the most he can expect. With us he's looking at a potential marriage to the heir of one of the Seven Kingdoms which he's not just going to toss out the window right off the bat. To even think he would is ridiculous. He has daughters to spare and is all too willing to sacrifice them.
They're a scummy house, yeah, but even they're not going to break guest right on a whim. That's one of the most horrific violations in ASOIAF and even the Wildlings have taboo against it. The Freys breaking guest right at the Red Wedding happened because Robb went back on his agreement with them and married someone else. Even they would balk at breaking guest right because, "Maybe the Lannisters will offer us a better deal." The Red Wedding came about because the Freys genuinely believed they were wronged.
Yes, you've made your point, the Twins are really freaking hard to take. But the other part of it is that Walder Frey isn't eager to start a war with the army quite literally at his doorstep.
That being said I know which way the wind blows and I know I'll end up losing.
[X] Send Lord Bolton and Lord Umber to negotiate your crossing. Roose has a reputation that would make any number of Walders wary of him, and if there's one person you can trust to fuck up people on your behalf, it's the Greatjon.
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