[X] Go in person to negotiate your crossing.
-[X] Have the army set up siege equipment while you go. Give orders that in case of Frey betrayal, the Twins are to be razed and every Frey put to the sword, regardless of what may happen to you.
(More for show than out of any real intent. We want Frey to know the cost of betrayal, while at the same time "respecting" him by coming to negotiate in person - "respecting" Walder Frey is actually rather important when it comes to making him do what we want, the man is incredibly vane.)
On the one hand, Charcolt protagonist; on the other, Fuck Freys...
[X] Send Lord Bolton and Lord Umber to negotiate your crossing. Roose has a reputation that would make any number of Walders wary of him, and if there's one person you can trust to fuck up people on your behalf, it's the Greatjon.
Anyone who thinks it is even a remotely good idea to send Roose Bolton anywhere near Walder Frey is terminally insane. To be frank, we could send Roose to the southernmost castle in Dorne and Walder straight to the Wall, and they'd still be too close for comfort.
[X] Go in person to negotiate your crossing.
-[X] Have the army set up siege equipment while you go. Give orders that in case of Frey betrayal, the Twins are to be razed and every Frey put to the sword, regardless of what may happen to you.
[X] Go in person to negotiate your crossing.
-[X] Have the army set up siege equipment while you go. Give orders that in case of Frey betrayal, the Twins are to be razed and every Frey put to the sword, regardless of what may happen to you.
(More for show than out of any real intent. We want Frey to know the cost of betrayal, while at the same time "respecting" him by coming to negotiate in person - "respecting" Walder Frey is actually rather important when it comes to making him do what we want, the man is incredibly vane.)
[X] Go in person to negotiate your crossing.
-[X] Have the army set up siege equipment while you go. Give orders that in case of Frey betrayal, the Twins are to be razed and every Frey put to the sword, regardless of what may happen to you.
I advise against splitting the vote, and the negotiations won't last so long that there will be time to set up siege equipment. They'll screw us over or they won't.
-[X] Promise Black Walder the lordship of the Twins if he opens the gates for your army. No. of Votes: 2 godofsmallthings Thule
-[X] Make it seem as if your forces are retreating and taking another, longer way to the South. Consult with your uncle as to the question of who will have to die amongst the Freys that either a) they will go and support their rightful liege in liberating the Riverlands or b) they will fight amongst themselves so that their forces are divided and easy to defeat. Then send in your best men or women in the guise of kitchen help and poison those you have chosen to die. Then the remaining Freys will either join you or your men on the inside will open the gates and let your army, a part of which should be nearby, inside to take the Twins as yours. As the Freys have discarded their honor and have not joined the Tullys in the defense of the Riverlands, they are neither good and trustworthy allies nor are they someone you have to be honorable with. This is war. This is about saving your family. And the Freys are in your way. No. of Votes: 2 Atri ETA50M
-[X] Have the army set up siege equipment while you go. Give orders that in case of Frey betrayal, the Twins are to be razed and every Frey put to the sword, regardless of what may happen to you. No. of Votes: 2 Driven by Apathy Captain Hunt
[X] Send someone else to negotiate your crossing. No. of Votes: 1 saiman
I will note that I also wish to offer a different strategy at this point instead of splitting off to Robb with most of the cavalry and Roose with nearly all the infantry. Will this be a seperate vote, or should I offer the plan now, seeing as we are at the same point in time as Robb's decision regarding the split, and why he needed the bridge in the first place?
So perhaps an outline of a plan in case we do go alone.
What I'm thinking is that instead of offering to marry a Frey ourselves, we shift the burden onto Edmure Tully (like Charcolt suggested as a possibility), whose life and Kingdom we're on our way to save, at least if the Lannisters prove particularly bloodthirsty. Regardless, Edmure Tully will owe us quite a bit and making him repay us by marrying a Frey of his choice seems like a reasonable deal.
Marrying Edmure should actually be more desireable for Lord Frey than marrying us, since his father already has one foot in the grave while ours is still alive if imprisoned in King's Landing, where anyone reasonable would assume he would be kept alive as a hostage. Furthermore, Lord Frey would be able to leverage a marriage to Edmure Tully to much greater effect than a marriage to us, since the former would provide greater influence in the Riverlands and the South in general.
We can potentially promise that if Edmure Tully refuses, we will marry one of his daughters as a substitute. I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not, since Frey is extremely prickly about his pride and might take it as an insult.
Aside from this marriage, which should prove fairly tempting in itself, we can also promise to have a Frey squire for us like in canon. Olyvar proved to be a good squire in canon and I don't see why he wouldn't be one here. It costs us little to nothing but being the squire of a future Lord Paramount is a fairly prestigious position and it's prestige and recognition that Frey ultimately desire. We shouldn't try to bribe Frey with money or some sort of trade deal, since it's unlikely to interest him. In fact, I think he'll be insulted that we would even try.
Well, thing is I was considering something for the orders given here, before the hosts part ways.
Robb's logic was this:
The Lannisters have invaded the Riverlands with two hosts. One has scattered the Riverlords, and lays siege to Riverrun. The other is securing the passage from the Westerladns to the Crownlands and aims to hook north and advance on the Stark host along the eastern bank of the Green Fork.
Robb wants to take 90% of the cavalry and swiftly deal with Jaime's host, free Edmure and keep the Riverlords in the war, if he is to have a chacne of defeating the Lannisters.
Roose would take the foot and 10% of the cavalry, march to engage Tywin's host. Because...
There is no real reason. Robb did not wish to engage Tywin with his full host including the Freys, because he feared open battle with him, and did not trust he could sneak up on him. Then why send Roose south? The whole point is to get Tywin to think that Robb is still on the eastern bank. The North loses a third of its foot, thousands of men, for no good reason. And aside of Roose sending forces to die, the foot recieved no other word or order from Robb before he calls on them to march back North and deal with the Ironborn. The only one to make use of them was Edmure, when he wanted to exploit Tywin's leave from Harrenhal to retake the stratigic fortress.
I propose the following before splitting the hosts:
Appoint Robett Glover commander of the foot.
Instruct him to pretend to lay siege to the Twins.
When Tywin is a day and a half from the Twins, cross the Twins.
We want Tywin to get as far north as possible, so as to be as far away as possible from Jaime when he realised what happened. In the books he already was too far, and didn't even make it past the Ruby Ford before a rider arrived from Riverrun, telling him of the Battle of the Camps. No need to march to Tywin, but if we can waste more of his time, the better. When Tywin finds the Twins well guarded and the Stark host on the other side, he is going to realise three things:
He can't push on North, as that way is only bogs and Moat Cailin.
He can't assault the Twins, because that would be a bloodbath only to run after Robb, who would be half-way to King's Landing already.
There is an entire army between himself and the Westerlands.
I also want Roose closer to us, and to actually have the Northern foot to make use of instead of having them remain irrelevant during the entire war. Together with the forces Edmure still had that he gathered for the Battle of the Fords, Robb should have ~33,000 men between Tywin and the Westerlands, of them ~9,000 horse.
That's more men than Tywin. That's more heavy horse than Tywin.
What I'm thinking is that instead of offering to marry a Frey ourselves, we shift the burden onto Edmure Tully (like Charcolt suggested as a possibility), whose life and Kingdom we're on our way to save, at least if the Lannisters prove particularly bloodthirsty. Regardless, Edmure Tully will owe us quite a bit and making him repay us by marrying a Frey of his choice seems like a reasonable deal.
Marrying Edmure should actually be more desireable for Lord Frey than marrying us, since his father already has one foot in the grave while ours is still alive if imprisoned in King's Landing, where anyone reasonable would assume he would be kept alive as a hostage. Furthermore, Lord Frey would be able to leverage a marriage to Edmure Tully to much greater effect than a marriage to us, since the former would provide greater influence in the Riverlands and the South in general.
We can potentially promise that if Edmure Tully refuses, we will marry one of his daughters as a substitute. I'm not sure if this is a good idea or not, since Frey is extremely prickly about his pride and might take it as an insult.
Aside from this marriage, which should prove fairly tempting in itself, we can also promise to have a Frey squire for us like in canon. Olyvar proved to be a good squire in canon and I don't see why he wouldn't be one here. It costs us little to nothing but being the squire of a future Lord Paramount is a fairly prestigious position and it's prestige and recognition that Frey ultimately desire. We shouldn't try to bribe Frey with money or some sort of trade deal, since it's unlikely to interest him. In fact, I think he'll be insulted that we would even try.
Robb has no power to agree to a marriage in Edmure's name. Not now, not later when he was his king. The feudal oath is one of service/tax in return for protection and justice, not giving Robb the right to make such calls. The Lannisters had to do the whole dance around Sansa being the crown's ward while the head of her house was a traitor in arms to be able to pay lip service to the law when marrying her off to Tyrion. Robb had to get Edmure to agree to do it by manipulating him into feeling guilty of all the problems that plagued them, set the ground for it, then guide him into agreeing to do anything to "make amends".
And Frey knows this. We offer him Edmure and he'll call bull, nothing stopping Edmure from saying, rightly, that he did not agree to any of this. Edmure also owes nothing to us, rather the other way around.
Edmure raised the Riverlords because Catelyn kidnapped Tyrion. Edmure's lands have been ravaged because he backed up his sister, kidnapping a Lannister in Tully land, with Tully swords, using the Tully name, without ever sending word to her brother as to WHY she did it. Edmure fell captive to a Lannister invasion caused by Catelyn and Ned's actions, because he came to the aid of his allies, not the other way around. If/when we free him, we are doing so first and formost because we needthe Riverlords in ourwar.
Between Edmure and Robb Frey has two future lords paramount. The one can give his word that he would marry Frey's daughter, the other cannot, and has avoided it in the past. Both families give him the exact same, but offering him first Edmure when we have nothing to back up said promise is unlikely to end well. Robb went to the trouble of getting Edmure to agree to "make amends" for a reason.
Back to my earlier summary, if the canon deal was a marriage to a future lord paramount, a squire, two foster kids, and a marriage to a lost sister, the above is offering a marriage to a future lord who is under no obligation to honor the agreement, and taking the squire. This is an objectively worse deal for Frey.
I get that people don't want the Walders in Winterfell, and to keep the marriage option open, but is there any plan regarding what to do once we are inside the lion's den? We are not really in a position to throw Frey crumbs and expect him to lick out boots.
Robb has no power to agree to a marriage in Edmure's name. Not now, not later when he was his king. The feudal oath is one of service/tax in return for protection and justice, not giving Robb the right to make such calls. The Lannisters had to do the whole dance around Sansa being the crown's ward while the head of her house was a traitor in arms to be able to pay lip service to the law when marrying her off to Tyrion. Robb had to get Edmure to agree to do it by manipulating him into feeling guilty of all the problems that plagued them, set the ground for it, then guide him into agreeing to do anything to "make amends".
And Frey knows this. We offer him Edmure and he'll call bull, nothing stopping Edmure from saying, rightly, that he did not agree to any of this. Edmure also owes nothing to us, rather the other way around.
Edmure raised the Riverlords because Catelyn kidnapped Tyrion. Edmure's lands have been ravaged because he backed up his sister, kidnapping a Lannister in Tully land, with Tully swords, using the Tully name, without ever sending word to her brother as to WHY she did it. Edmure fell captive to a Lannister invasion caused by Catelyn and Ned's actions, because he came to the aid of his allies, not the other way around. If/when we free him, we are doing so first and formost because we needthe Riverlords in ourwar.
Between Edmure and Robb Frey has two future lords paramount. The one can give his word that he would marry Frey's daughter, the other cannot, and has avoided it in the past. Both families give him the exact same, but offering him first Edmure when we have nothing to back up said promise is unlikely to end well. Robb went to the trouble of getting Edmure to agree to "make amends" for a reason.
Back to my earlier summary, if the canon deal was a marriage to a future lord paramount, a squire, two foster kids, and a marriage to a lost sister, the above is offering a marriage to a future lord who is under no obligation to honor the agreement, and taking the squire. This is an objectively worse deal for Frey.
I get that people don't want the Walders in Winterfell, and to keep the marriage option open, but is there any plan regarding what to do once we are inside the lion's den? We are not really in a position to throw Frey crumbs and expect him to lick out boots.
Did you completely miss the part where I wrote how we could potentially promise to marry a Frey if Edmure refuses? Because I did in fact write that for this specific reason. I don't want to sound rude but maybe you should spend a bit more time reading people's posts before writing a huge reply about a single issue.
Anyway, I'm aware that we do not have the power to force Edmure to marry anyone which is why I didn't say or imply that Robb had this power in my post. I'm also aware of the feudal contract and how it worked, though it might be different in GRRM's grimdark version of the feudal Europe. I simply said that Edmure would owe us for bailing him out of a terrible situation which our mother(i.e. NOT US) was the spark of but which he's responsible for. He could've fairly easily avoided this situationif he was actually a competent leader and military commander. Edmure is going to owe us when we come to his rescue, regardless of how the conflict started. (ultimately, the Lannisters escalated the situation insanely when they mobilised and invaded the Riverlands.)
That we need Edmure and the Riverlands in our war is irrelevant. They are already committed to a war with the Lannisters. They've suffered casualties and a severe humiliation at the hands of these people and it is extremely unlikely that they will make peace with them yet. Honour demands that they fight the Lannisters.
The Lannisters had to do the whole dance around Sansa being the crown's ward while the head of her house was a traitor in arms to be able to pay lip service to the law when marrying her off to Tyrion.
This is objectively wrong. Sansa wasn't married off to Tyrion in order to pay lip service to the law. She was married off to Tyrion in order to create a claim on the North for their future children.
Between Edmure and Robb Frey has two future lords paramount. The one can give his word that he would marry Frey's daughter, the other cannot, and has avoided it in the past. Both families give him the exact same, but offering him first Edmure when we have nothing to back up said promise is unlikely to end well. Robb went to the trouble of getting Edmure to agree to "make amends" for a reason.
This is also objectively wrong, which I outlined in my post. A marriage to the Lord Paramount in the kingdom that you're a part of is significantly more valuable than a marriage to one of a different kingdom, all else being equal.
Back to my earlier summary, if the canon deal was a marriage to a future lord paramount, a squire, two foster kids, and a marriage to a lost sister, the above is offering a marriage to a future lord who is under no obligation to honor the agreement, and taking the squire. This is an objectively worse deal for Frey.
Hence, why I said this was the outline to a potential offer, not a final offer of what we could or even should offer. Also, the deal should be way worse than the deal offered in canon, which was to borrow a phrase "the worst trade deal in the history of trade deals, maybe ever." What Caitlyn offered Lord Frey for crossing the Twins was absolutely ridiculous.
It was midday when the vanguard of your mighty host arrived at the Twins. The seat of House Frey bristling with archers and scorpions. Its every battlement was manned, the drawbridge raised and the porculis dropped. Someone with a sense of humor had nailed a single wooden board to the front gate.
Greatjon Umber expressed what every one of you was thinking. "Fuck."
Lord Bolton's thoughts were somewhat more nuanced. "That cannot be assaulted, my lords."
As your banners voice their agreement, a sally port opened and out rode a dozen knights, at the front of them four sons of House Frey. The banners they raised bore dual towers, identical (if a bit less prickly-looking) to the ones which now stood before you. The eldest of them slowed, and at his raised hand his escort ground to a halt. He was an aged, somewhat weaselly looking man, his balding head peppered with liver spots, but his eyes were kind enough.
Surely this must be Walder Frey?
Then he spoke. "My lord father has sent me to greet you, and inquire as to who leads this mighty host."
Your eyes bulged. This was Lord Frey's heir? He was old enough to be your grandfather. Feeling more than a little absurd, you rode forward. There was no need to introduce yourself, with the grey-white direwolf shield strabbed to your saddle, its slightly fleshier cousin hanging by your side. "I do."
Was that a hint of amusement in those watery grey eyes? It vanished quickly when Grey Wind let out a low, rumbling snarl that saw his gelding buck slightly. "My lord father would be most honored if you would share meat and mead with him in the castle and explain your purpose here."
A roar passed through your entourage. Not one of them approved, as they let known through a storm of cursed and shouts. To step into Lord Walder's clutches was to sell yourself to the Lannisters, to be imprisoned just as father was in King's Landing. Lord Walder should open his gates to your assembled lords, should step out to treat with you on this contested ground, should bugger himself with either one of his castles.
"I will go."
The din redoubled, and more than one man looked ready to call you a foolish boy. The Greatjon did just that, but even he fell silent as you called out in the lordliest voice you could manage. "I will go. I will treat with Lord Walder and negotiate our Crossing. It is my duty and no one else's."
Your eyes met mother's, so like your own. She looked more afraid than you had ever seen her, and her lips formed the word 'why?'
Sometimes a lord's life counts least of all, Robb.
"My father will be pleased to meet with you, Lord Robb," Ser Stevron said. "To vouchsafe for our good intentions, my brother Ser Perwyn will remain here until she is safely returned to you."
Some small comfort then. Assuming Lord Walder loved his son, a man who could not be but a few years your senior, more than the mountain of gold Tywin Lannister might offer to see yet another Stark in his custody. You gestured to Grey Wind, though your gaze did not leave the Heir to the Crossing. "You will allow me this consideration? It seems only fitting when I shall be vanishing into the gullet of your own sigil."
There was a moment of thick, uneasy silence, broken by a chuckle from somewhere behind you. A reminder, to his men and to yours, that while your look might be Tully that was not who you were. Ser Stevron spoke at last. "If your... hound is trained, I think it not a problem."
Without another word, without looking back, you made your way into the domain of House Frey.
-
Twenty sons (not counting Ser Perwyn outside). Thirty-six grandsons. Nineteen great-grandsons. More daughters, granddaughters, and bastards than you could count without looking daft. And at the center of them all was a man who like as not had taken Old Nan's maidenhead. This then was the late Walder Frey.
"Lord Frey," you said, bowing your head slightly "Thank you for your hospitality." Grey Wind rubbed against your armored leg uneasily, circling around you as if to get the measure of the hall and its inhabitants. Upon realizing that despite the resemblence, none of them were food (yet), it curled up by your side.
The old man's watery eyes squinted. "A young wolf comes into my home. And just to make sure I know who he is, he's brought a kinsman along to shit on my floor. Why have you come here, boy? What am I to do with you?"
"Father," Ser Stevron said reproachfully, "you forget yourself. Lord Stark is here at your invitation."
"Did I ask you? You are not Lord Frey yet, not until I die. Do I look dead? I'll hear no instructions from you."
"This is no way to speak in front of our noble guest, Father," one of his younger sons said.
"Now my bastards presume to teach me courtesy," Lord Walder complained. "I'll speak any way I like, damn you. I've had three kings to guest in my life, and queens as well, do you think I require lessons from the likes of you, Ryger? Your mother was milking goats the first time I gave her my seed." He dismissed the red-faced youth with a flick of his fingers and gestured to two of his other sons. "Danwell, Whalen, help me to my chair."
They shifted Lord Walder from his litter and carried him to the high seat of the Freys, a tall chair of black oak whose back was carved in the shape of two towers linked by a bridge. His young wife crept up timidly and covered his legs with a blanket. When he was settled, the old man beckoned you forward. "I ask again, boy, why are you here?"
Onward into the breach then. "We seek passage across your bridge," you replied. "Our army hoped to pass south in defense of Riverrun. Where we expected to find your army."
Lord Walder sniggered. "You've come up tardy. I hear the Kingslayer went through your fool uncle like an axe through ripe cheese. I called my swords, yes I did, you saw them on the walls. It was my intent to march as soon as all my strength was assembled. Well, to send my sons. I am well past marching myself, boy." He looked around for likely confirmation and pointed to a tall, stooped man of fifty years. "Tell him, Jared. Tell her that was my intent."
"It was, my lord," said the prompted boy. "On my honor."
"Is it my fault that your fool uncle lost his battle before we could march?" He leaned back against his cushions and scowled at you, as if challenging you to dispute his version of events. "Why should my boys hurry south to die? All those who did go south are running north again."
You took a breath, hoping beyond all hopes that this hadn't been the worst mistake of your life.
What cause did Walder Frey have to help you? His oath to your grandfather meant nothing, or little enough that he was willing to act as if a Lannister victory negated it entirely. It was the same course he had attempted at the Trident, neutrality to the extent of plausibility. Honor and duty were not the keys to this man's shriveled up peach pit of a heart.
So what did we want? What had you wanted that night which already felt like a lifetime ago, when the Greatjon defied you before the assembled banners of the North. What did this man, who bristled at his own mentions of Tullys and Lannisters, want?
"Because I'm here now, treating with you face to face. Would Tywin Lannister have done the same?"
Tywin Lannister was smarter than that, honestly.
"Send your kin away. Let us you and I come to terms, and see what mutual profit can be made here."
At that his worm-like lips wriggled into something resembling a smile.
Right. Time to haggle.
-
Please Vote in Plan Format.
5 Points Required to Pass
[] Fostering - Winterfell (1p)
The fostering of noble youths is a tried and true way of establishing and maintaining ties between Houses. Lord Frey has suggested that two of his grandsons, both named Walder, be fostered at Winterfell.
[] Fostering - The Crossing (1p)
The fostering of noble youths is a tried and true way of establishing and maintaining ties between Houses. Lord Frey has suggested that your youngest brother Rickon be fostered at the Crossing.
[] Squiring - Olyvar Frey (1p)
It is a great honor to serve as the squire to a member of one of the great houses (even if technically you aren't a knight!). Olyvar is around two years your senior, and said to be a dependable sort.
[] Betrothal Offer - Robb Stark (3p)
Marriage is the foundation of any noble alliance, and House Frey has no shortage of unmarried heirs. Lord Frey has offered your choice of his daughters and granddaughters (write-in).
[] Betrothal Offer - Sansa Stark (2p)
Marriage is the foundation of any noble alliance, and House Frey has no shortage of unmarried heirs. Lord Frey has offered his grandson Steffon as a potential husband for your eldest sister.
[] Betrothal Offer - Arya Stark (2p)
Marriage is the foundation of any noble alliance, and House Frey has no shortage of unmarried heirs. Lord Frey has offered his youngest son Elmar as a potential husband for your youngest sister.
[] Betrothal Offer - Brandon Stark (2p)
Marriage is the foundation of any noble alliance, and House Frey has no shortage of unmarried heirs. Lord Frey has offered his granddaughter Cynthea as a potential wife for your eldest brother.
[] Betrothal Offer - Rickon Stark (2p)
Marriage is the foundation of any noble alliance, and House Frey has no shortage of unmarried heirs. Lord Frey has has offered his great-granddaughter Perra as a potential wife for your youngest brother.
[] Betrothal Offer - Brynden Tully (1p)
Marriage is the foundation of any noble alliance, and House Frey has no shortage of unmarried heirs. Your great-uncle may not appreciate it, but Lord Frey has an unmarried daughter.
[] Betrothal Offer - Edmure Tully? (1p)
You have no rights over your uncle and he's a prisoner besides. Lord Walder knows that, so an offer to attempt strongarming Edmure should he be rescued isn't worth much.
[] Betrothal Offer - Theon Greyjoy? (1p)
Theon is still your family's ward, and is something of a catch as Heir to Pyke (ignoring the whole Ironborn thing). He could say no, but perhaps he'd agree to a match with Fair Walda?
[] Vacant Keeps (1p)
The North has no shortage of empty halls, and Lord Frey has no shortage of useless sons. An abandoned castle in the frozen North isn't the most attractive prospect to everyone, but it could be a good cap to any deal in progress.
[] Write-in Offer (?p)
Surely there is something of value you can offer in this deal, other than what has already been discussed.
Walda "the Heir" (290)
The only daughter of Lord Frey's great-grandson Edwyn, Walda is technically in line to inherit the Twins when the prior four generations of House Frey drop dead. Her parents may yet father a son, but it's a thought worth considering.
Marianne Vance (281)
While technically not a Frey, Marianne is Ser Stevron's granddaughter and would still bind the Freys tightly to your cause.
"Fair" Walda (281)
The loveliest of the women presented before you, this blonde-haired, blue-eyed Walda is a cousin to the Waynwoods and Hardyngs of the Vale.
"White" Walda (288)
The daughter of one Rhaegar Frey (Seriously?), she is a rake thin, nervous-looking girl with pale blonde hair.
Zia (285)
A brown-haired, weaselly looking girl with a pair of surprisingly sharp green eyes and the largest smile of any of the Frey children.
Alyx (282)
The daughter of Symond Frey and his Braavosi wife, there is a distinctly foreign look to her features, and she seems clever enough.
Amerei (282)
Attractive despite her pinched, chinless face, Ami possesses long legs and full breasts. She also is in line for Castle Darry, for what that's worth.
"Fat" Walda (284)
By far the heaviest Walda (hence the name), she comes with an equally heavy dowry. She too is an heir to House Darry by her mother.
Marissa (286)
Somewhat overshadowed by her two older sisters, there is also Merrett Frey's third daughter by Mariya Darry.
Roslin (283)
The youngest and only daughter of Lord Walder by his Rosby wife (and thus a sister to Perwyn and Olyvar), Roslin is shockingly lovely and gentle.
Arwyn (285)
Lord Frey's oldest daughter by Annara Farring, she possesses long black hair and a rather nasty looking sneer.
If it's cool with y'all, I'm just going to sidestep the canon dialogue in the future so I don't feel like I have to attempt and fail to mirror GRRM's voice.
Note that some of the bartering options are only available because of the high roll.
[] Squiring - Olyvar Frey
It is a great honor to serve as the squire to a member of one of the great houses (even if technically you aren't a knight!). Olyvar is around two years your senior, and said to be a dependable sort.
[] Fostering - Winterfell
The fostering of noble youths is a tried and true way of establishing and maintaining ties between Houses. Lord Frey has suggested that two of his grandsons, both named Walder, be fostered at Winterfell.
These are the two most prestigious options that do us the least damage. The two Walders sent to Winterfell weren't evil or particularly stupid, they were just a bit annoying (and unlucky). And Olyvar is actually far more noble and loyal than the rest of his house, so I'm pretty eager to pluck him from the Freys.
As for marriage options, I wouldn't mind Roslin for several reasons.
1. She's pretty
2. She's sweet-tempered
3. She hates the other Freys, no surprise there
4. This is pretty cold-blooded, but there's a good chance she'll die in childbirth, which would then free us up for other marriages
Of course, if others in the thread want a different marriage out of this quest (like Margaery or someone along those lines) then we can always do our best to avoid committing to a Frey.
[X] Squiring - Olyvar Frey
It is a great honor to serve as the squire to a member of one of the great houses (even if technically you aren't a knight!). Olyvar is around two years your senior, and said to be a dependable sort.
[X] Fostering - Winterfell
The fostering of noble youths is a tried and true way of establishing and maintaining ties between Houses. Lord Frey has suggested that two of his grandsons, both named Walder, be fostered at Winterfell.
As @Duesal said, two options that cost us the least, and technically give us hostages. Olyvar was also a good dude and loyal in canon.
That's my opening offer. If that's not enough (I don't know if we have this option, but I assume we can haggle a bit, given this is a negotiation), I'd also offer:
[X] Betrothal Offer - Brandon Stark
Marriage is the foundation of any noble alliance, and House Frey has no shortage of unmarried heirs. Lord Frey has offered his granddaughter Cynthea as a potential wife for your eldest brother. To Fat Walda, who could get Darry if we wish it.
[X] Vacant Keeps
The North has no shortage of empty halls, and Lord Frey has no shortage of useless sons. An abandoned castle in the frozen North isn't the most attractive prospect to everyone, but it could be a good cap to any deal in progress.
Give them some of those, especially for example the empty ones near the Wall, or really, any ones that free up from the casualties in the coming battles.
Betrothing Bran might be seen as a huge insult since he's crippled. Also, if he leaves for his Bloodraven quest then we're in a bit of a bind and the Freys will be pissy about it. What about Rickon instead? I like your idea of vacant keeps, though. Tossing them right into the Others' warpath is something I can get behind.
[X] Plan Minimal Commitment
-[X] Squiring - Olyvar Frey
It is a great honor to serve as the squire to a member of one of the great houses (even if technically you aren't a knight!). Olyvar is around two years your senior, and said to be a dependable sort.
-[X] Fostering - Winterfell
The fostering of noble youths is a tried and true way of establishing and maintaining ties between Houses. Lord Frey has suggested that two of his grandsons, both named Walder, be fostered at Winterfell.
-[X] Betrothal Offer - Rickon Stark
Marriage is the foundation of any noble alliance, and House Frey has no shortage of unmarried heirs. Lord Frey has has offered his great-granddaughter Perra as a potential wife for your youngest brother.
-[X] Vacant Keeps
The North has no shortage of empty halls, and Lord Frey has no shortage of useless sons. An abandoned castle in the frozen North isn't the most attractive prospect to everyone, but it could be a good cap to any deal in progress.
Give them some of those, especially for example the empty ones near the Wall, or really, any ones that free up from the casualties in the coming battles.
[X] Plan Minimal Commitment
-[X] Squiring - Olyvar Frey (1p)
It is a great honor to serve as the squire to a member of one of the great houses (even if technically you aren't a knight!). Olyvar is around two years your senior, and said to be a dependable sort.
-[X] Fostering - Winterfell (1p)
The fostering of noble youths is a tried and true way of establishing and maintaining ties between Houses. Lord Frey has suggested that two of his grandsons, both named Walder, be fostered at Winterfell.
-[X] Betrothal Offer - Rickon Stark (2p)
Marriage is the foundation of any noble alliance, and House Frey has no shortage of unmarried heirs. Lord Frey has has offered his great-granddaughter Perra as a potential wife for your youngest brother.
-[X] Write-in Offer (1p)
You will grant House Frey reduced rates on Northern lumber for 10 years. In addition, you will arrange for a one-time gift of Ironwood as a sign of House Stark's esteem and friendship.
Right Fostering-Winterfell and Squiring Olyvar is a no brainer, they don't cost us much and Olyvar is one of those rare good Frey. I don't mind marrying Roslin. I know we could in theory get a better wife, but I quite like her character. Give some random vacant keeps for the younger Freys for final appeasement to seal the deal.
Oh and remember to use plan format guys.
Edit: Drop the vacant keeps, thanks to the new point system by Charcolt this should be enough to pass.
[X] Plan Marriages for River crossings are dumb but I need the points.
-[X] Squiring - Olyvar Frey
-[X] Fostering - The Crossing
-[X] Fostering - Winterfell
-[X] Vacant Keeps
-[X] Betrothal Offer - Rickon Stark
Realized I forgot to add the point values to the bartering options (adjusted by the positive roll and Walder liking the cut of your jib). A successful plan must have at least 5 points!
Sounds about right: no leaving any kind of ours at the Crossing, but gets the maximum use out of the Freys. As for Rikons betrothal ... we're likely to have to survive the Winter before having to worry about that.
[] Fostering - Winterfell
- This is a perfectly positive offer. We get hostages, they get prestige, and it is a sign of trust. The worse we get from this is that they piss off Bran, and I don't like Bran enough to save him some annoynace while we fight a war to save our family. Literally no downsides.
[] Fostering - The Crossing
Mostly like the above, only in reverse. We can argue easily that Rickon is too young to be seperated from his family (he already only has Bran with him), and sending one of our heirs closer to a warzone is not something we are willing to accept.
[] Squiring - Olyvar Frey
Again, no downsides. Not even using canon knowledge, just pointing out that a squire traveling with us is an even better assurance of trust.
[] Betrothal Offer - Robb Stark
For crying out loud, this is our best card. We are a lord paramount, the Freys are a major Riverlands House. The ridicules assumption they are "beneath" us, when they bring us a strategic bridge, two powerful castles and 4,000 men, 1,000 of them heavy cavalry, is just that, ridicules. We are the LP of the North, we are worth more than all of our siblings combined, because as long as we live and have children, our children will inherit Winterfell and the North. Our siblings, at best, are alliances for this lifetime. Our children are an alliance until the next generation, if not longer.
[] Betrothal Offer - Sansa Stark
Coin we don't have, and if we can get her we can get other alliances.
[] Betrothal Offer - Arya Stark
Like Sansa, coin we don't have, and can be married for other alliances.
[] Betrothal Offer - Brandon Stark
Our current heir, who is a cripple and unlikely to sire children. Not going to go over well, Walder will probably see it as an insult.
[] Betrothal Offer - Rickon Stark
Now this is something. Our best current heir, as he is the only male Stark that can keep the family going if we die childless. I suggest marrying him to Walda "the Heir", for the chance of also placing House Stark on the Twins in the future. Also, gives us the longest bethrothel, and thus the most chances to cancel it peacefully if we ever change our minds.
[] Betrothal Offer - Brynden Tully
Coin we have, of dubius value. What is an old man, not in line to inherit anything going to do for the Freys? The odds any children he might have in his remaining years using any claim on the Riverlands or Riverrun in the future is slim.
[] Betrothal Offer - Edmure Tully?
Coin we do not have, may refuse, currently a captive with good odds of being executed or dying in the war even if we rescue him.
[] Betrothal Offer - Theon Greyjoy?
Official heir to the Iron Islands, so that's got to count for something. A marriage probably won't stop Balon from being Balon, but I would prefer anything to keep Theon on our side. If he already had difficulty choosing between family and us, a marriage tied to the mainland may be what wins him over.
[] Vacant Keeps
Why the fuck would we offer them lands. Shit, why do we even have empty lands that are not being settled and making money for us, or kept to be given as rewards for good service from our own men?
Also, offering lands far in the North to Andal Faith worshippers is a recipe for disaster and quarreling vassals. The Hill Clans and the Umbers are not likely to be friendly neighbors with Freys.
[] Write-in Offer
Without a developed economic model for Westeros, there's little other incentives we can offer. The Twins are already profiting from almost all land trade between the North and South. We can't exactly make up trade deals out of our asses, or offer them a bigger monopoly than they already have.
Just my 2 cents. Better suck it up and take the bethrothel than risk offering "smart" deals that Walder will scuff at.
@Yonatan will you be willing to switch to my plan? You are literally giving the Frey too much. We only need 5 point to succeed. Foster-Winterfell give one, Squire-Olyvar give one, and Robb-marriage to Roslin give three. We don't need more than that.
@Yonatan will you be willing to switch to my plan? You are literally giving the Frey too much. We only need 5 point to succeed. Foster-Winterfell give one, Squire-Olyvar give one, and Robb-marriage to Roslin give three. We don't need more than that.
The only stuff I give them more than your plan is the Rickon and Theon marriage, and I gave my reasons why these would be possibly more beneficial to us. Rickon would have a chance to inherit the Twins and Theon costs us nothing.
The only stuff I give them more than your plan is the Rickon and Theon marriage, and I gave my reasons why these would be possibly more beneficial to us. Rickon would have a chance to inherit the Twins and Theon costs us nothing.
There are way too many Freys that have to die for Rickon to inherit. And look at your plan, in canon Catelyn give House Frey 7 Points (Foster-Winterfell, Squire olyvar, Robb marriage, Arya marriage). You're giving them 8! Why do you want to give so many favors to House Frey when 5 is enough?
Shit, why do we even have empty lands that are not being settled and making money for us, or kept to be given as rewards for good service from our own men?
The North is dotted with holdfasts, but generally they're too expensive or isolated to bother fixing up. There are three in decent condition which Ned hoped to give to Bran, Rickon, and Jon Snow when they came of age. Of course, Catelyn also had hopes of petitioning to name Bran Lord of Harrenhal if Lady Whent died before Edmure had any children.
There are way too many Freys that have to die for Rickon to inherit. And look at your plan, in canon Catelyn give House Frey 7 Points (Foster-Winterfell, Squire olyvar, Robb marriage, Arya marriage). You're giving them 8! Why do you want to give so many favors to House Frey when 5 is enough?
Walda is the direct heir via the male-line, barring the birth of any brothers or any Black Walder-related accident (though she is half a decade older than Rickon for what that's worth).
There are way too many Freys that have to die for Rickon to inherit. And look at your plan, in canon Catelyn give House Frey 7 Points (Foster-Winterfell, Squire olyvar, Robb marriage, Arya marriage). You're giving them 8! Why do you want to give so many favors to House Frey when 5 is enough?
1. Why do you think 5 is enough? Sure, he might agree if we only offer ourselves. He might also try and haggle for more, or limit our choice of bride if we don't offer him a second bethrothel.
2. The only thing that needs to happen is for Walda the Heir not to die before her parents and grandparents and for her parents to not give birth to a son. After that its just a matter of time. Worse case, Rickon has a wife with no lands, which is already his most likely prospect anyway.
3. I give 8 points because I included Theon, who may not agree, and his inclusion gives the Freys nothing. Balon is gonna Balon, I am trying to nudge Theon to stay with us over his family.
1. Why do you think 5 is enough? Sure, he might agree if we only offer ourselves. He might also try and haggle for more, or limit our choice of bride if we don't offer him a second bethrothel.
2. The only thing that needs to happen is for Walda the Heir not to die before her parents and grandparents and for her parents to not give birth to a son. After that its just a matter of time. Worse case, Rickon has a wife with no lands, which is already his most likely prospect anyway.
3. I give 8 points because I included Theon, who may not agree, and his inclusion gives the Freys nothing. Balon is gonna Balon, I am trying to nudge Theon to stay with us over his family.
Because it said so on the update? 5 Point require to pass. Giving too much to the Frey might make them happy but it would also make Robb look like a bad negotiator from the North lords' point of view. The Freys haven't done anything but we're piling them with good things.
