Wild Card: A Fallout New Vegas Post-Game Quest
- Thread starter Etranger
- Start date
- Sci-Fi
- Location
- Phoenix, Arizona
- Pronouns
- She/Her
This is a really important point to me, and I want to try and sort of build out at least some theorizing based on the options. These are just my personal interpretations of the options, and feel free to disagree with me, but I wanted to at least lay it out.
This is the chlorine bomb option. It's mass murder. They may be evil, they may be a gang, but this is mass murder via chemical weapon - Which doesn't care about the morality of its victims. It's turning their own plot against them, karmic, but completely ruthless. It's something we'll be known for, it's something we'll have done, and it's the option that explicitly says it costs a little piece of our soul. I'm, personally, fine with that - I'm voting for a plan that includes that, after all. But it's something to keep in mind.
This is the option for exposing and exiling the White Gloves. It's explicitly ruthless, quotes Caesar, and favors the goodwill of an NCR brahmin baron over the White Gloves's continued existence. We will throw them out into destitution, destroy their entire way of life, for our own personal gain and convenience. I don't think a lot of people are seeing this in that way - We'd be exiling them from their home, driving them out into the Mojave desert, and smearing them as cannibals and our enemies in a land we control - What outcomes would be left to them, as a people?
This is the option for letting the Chairmen just keep on keeping on - I view this as being essentially being happy with the status quo of the Strip, qnd being willing to let it keep on rolling.
This is the option for the Chairmen being integrated - Frankly, this is the option I view as being the most important for shifting Vegas's economy through worldview/personal choice, since it's the only one that actually talks about building the new world. I view this as choosing that sort of long-term change over continuing to let the good times roll, as a character.
This is the 'spare the White Gloves' option. I'm of the opinion that this option demonstrates a merciful streak in the Courier - A belief in reform and redemption, of sorts. A belief that, uh, we haven't exactly been displaying up til now, which might be important. Or not! I'm not the arbiter of what you believe.
To add on my own personal analysis - The only plan I really want to speak against is Strip-ped Clean, because I think people who are voting for it to simplify things or 'clean out the rot' are kind of missing the forest for the trees, here. The Courier that plan is making is one who will ruthless commit mass murder when they think it's justified, exile an entire group of largely innocent people and destroy their way of life with the life-ruining smear of cannibalism and a grudge from an extremely wealthy Brahmin Baron for personal gain or because they don't believe that the White Gloves can change, and who won't settle for the status quo, and I don't think that's the path that a lot of you think it might be, towards some sort of enlightened society. To quote Rose of Sharon Cassidy: "We were going full speed ahead... but facing backwards the whole time."
- Location
- Great Khanate of Scotland
- Pronouns
- She/Her
C'mon guys, this is "ruler of an independent state" 101. This playerbase needs to show some killer instinct or we're never gonna make it.
- Pronouns
- Reader
We did that with the legion. There is a difference between killer instinct, and careless destructiveness. Nixing a third of your income and doing yourself serious mental harm is not the brilliant ruler move, it's the crude move of burning down a city because he lacks the skill to conquer it.
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- Pronouns
- They/Them
My perspective here is, how exactly do you think it will be easier for us to eliminate the Omertas later? Like, I think it's entirely valid to decide that the White Gloves aren't a faction you're going to be acting against, and then therefore refuse to act against them.
But I think there's something a little flawed about, "I won't deal with the Omertas when I have the biggest chance to just eliminate and end their evil, I'll instead do it when they're expecting me and are no longer unbalanced."
Now, the argument about the "bit of soul" is honestly a better one for that?
- Pronouns
- Reader
There essentially neutered, with a coward in charge. House pretty much kept them in line with a few dozen pre platinum chip securitrons. You really think there going to stand up to several hundred improved ones? As long as we aren't killing them they'll try their luck with anyone else. Plus, what's his face is an idiot. Tricking him into sending half their number away to "run a new establishment in a different part of the Mojave wasteland" after we already narratively established our ability to turn his former bosses against each other will be easy.
Is there? Are we suddenly less the second most heavily armed force in the Mojave, with the backing of the heaviest armed one, because we leave the Omerta's alive? Is handling the Omerta's with Chemical bomb when we have military grade robots, competent thugs that out number them, and possibly ourselves in a suit of power armor, anything less than ridiculous and self destructive overkill?
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People are failing to take into account the fact that it's probably going to be a major undertaking to make the Gomorrah habitable again after detonating a freaking chemical weapon. Do we really want to give us that headache when we can defang the Omertas in a simpler way?
- Pronouns
- They/Them
To be fair, the leading plan is also messing around with the second out of the three casinos, and in the long-term any plan with the Chairmen helping out will mean that the Top will eventually need more workers/etc because they're going to be busy.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
Decontaminate the casino of chemical residues isn't like scrubbing rads out of a nuclear power plant. Hell why do we even need the building? There's plenty enough clothing (chem suit, power armor, fully sealed helmet) around if we really need to pull stuff out of the building. A war just ended and we sent NCR packing, do you think tourist season is still on after a devastating loss for them? There are still two perfectly fine casino assuming we still have gambler worth fleecing.
"Wealth generation" isn't an automatic good thing for "the economy". Actually think who benefits from the House/Three Casino setup? It's House and the Three casinos who, if you were paying attention, did fuck all to clean up the space they eat and sleep in. "New Vegas" city is a festering city that got lucky because somehow infectious diseases and diarrhea didn't wipe 3/4 of the resident on a regular basis.
We are not House, who didn't know the first thing about restarting an economy because he only leeched off of a successful existing power, we actually want to be a power. A power that have a functional system that can replace the population and resources it's depleting.
"Wealth generation" isn't an automatic good thing for "the economy". Actually think who benefits from the House/Three Casino setup? It's House and the Three casinos who, if you were paying attention, did fuck all to clean up the space they eat and sleep in. "New Vegas" city is a festering city that got lucky because somehow infectious diseases and diarrhea didn't wipe 3/4 of the resident on a regular basis.
We are not House, who didn't know the first thing about restarting an economy because he only leeched off of a successful existing power, we actually want to be a power. A power that have a functional system that can replace the population and resources it's depleting.
- Location
- Somewhere in the area
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
That just means more job opportunities for the people of new vegas imo.
It will be interesting to see what we did with the other communities in the Vegas ruins. The Fiends are screwed. So after we finish the prologue we should reclaim Vault 3.
- Pronouns
- Reader
Actually it's messing with all of them. Just because we aren't doing anything bad to the Chairmen, doesn't mean the staff shortage from pulling them from the Casino isn't going to have a large negative impact. The NCR pulling back east and the boomers setting up on one of the roads to Vegas is already going to have an effect on incoming traffic. Bombing one building, creating staff shortages in two and scaring away customers with reputation hit white Gloves casino is taking is going to nuke our economy.
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
Like holy shit, the mummy with so many electronic eyes is blind to the fact that his jewel city is a burnt out husk with carrion feeding on it. The guy never cared about anything but his delusions. He most certainly didn't build jack all after waking up, some old world "titan of industry" he is.
The fact that we aren't going to be focusing our economy on tourism doesn't mean we should knock out the sole pillar supporting our economy. At the very least we need to keep the casinos running long enough to allow us to successfully diversify our economy.
On another note, I really like the idea that we're just "Courier Six". Like our life before the premature burial doesn't matter any more. Or we don't remember it.
On another note, I really like the idea that we're just "Courier Six". Like our life before the premature burial doesn't matter any more. Or we don't remember it.
- Pronouns
- Reader
We don't have a surplus of unemployed, none junkie and thug employees to take over our casinos. Infact, with a lot of NCR populations pulling back east, the sheer percentage of maniac raiders and gangsters, and only two none NCR or destroyed population centers in the wasteland besides free side and the strip, we have a serious reliable manpower shortage.
Yeah. House was kind of a shithead with Tunnel vision when he woke up. He figured to do anything, he would need to get his robots, so he invested over 800000 caps in hiring prospectors to find the platinum chip in 2280 alone, millions in the years leading up to 2280. instead of in taking over anything beyond the strip.
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- Location
- Great Khanate of Scotland
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Are chlorine weapons really that hard to clean up or that just something we're assuming?
EDIT: After some googling it seems like chlorine gas - well, it's a gas, all we have to do is ventilate the building, and any residual traces can be easily cleaned up with water. This isn't nearly as big a problem as people are implying.
EDIT: After some googling it seems like chlorine gas - well, it's a gas, all we have to do is ventilate the building, and any residual traces can be easily cleaned up with water. This isn't nearly as big a problem as people are implying.
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- Location
- United states
Also don't think that anyone is going to be willing to go to the Omertas' casino if people chemical bomb the hell out of it. People IRL are already uncomfortable of moving into a place where a murder happened. I have no idea why people are ignoring the fact that potential customers are likely going to want to stay away from a casino where mass murder/genocide happened by way of chemical war literally just happened.
What part of losing a third of our income don't people understand by taking out the Omertas don't people understand?
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VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
IRL you let the building or field air out for weeks? It doesn't really stick around, being reactive and such.
- Location
- Great Khanate of Scotland
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Yeah I was just editing my post to say that, this isn't gonna be a problem for us.
- Location
- Somewhere in the area
- Pronouns
- He/She/They
It's not the sole pillar of our economy what are you talking about? For all these arguments about not thinking things through, only one side seems to consider tourism the end all be all of our current let alone future income. The contract to sell energy and water from Hoover Dam still stands, and it's likely we can renegotiate for a better deal now that we have our own army and don't need the NCR's to defend against the Legion. And the population of new vegas is large, there are more than enough unemployed locals who could take over running the casinos after the strip families are removed.
- Location
- United states
I'm amused at the reasoning that people are using while ignoring every other point: "Hey potential customers! Why don't you come over to the strip? Wait, where are you all going? Why aren't we getting customers? What do you mean that people aren't comfortable visiting a place where mass murder and genocide happened along with outright cannibalism?!"
VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
You do know majority of the tourists are from NCR and their expedition force right? Both of whom we sent packing? And can i remind you those same tourists was also having the time of their lives during both the 1st and 2nd battle of hover dam against the actual genocidal mass murder hobo army? Like what even is this assumption the war that just ended wouldn't already upset the status quo that House setup decades ago?
- Pronouns
- Reader
We seem to not understand that none of the nobodies in the general Mojave area make it into the strip. 2000 cap buy in. It's mainly wealthy foreign elites who we are fleecing, and money leaving the pocket of wealthy foreign nationals to prop up our none existent alternative economy is a good thing.
Frankly, it seems to me your more concerned with dismantling the casinos than the difficulties doing so causes us in the short and medium term.
The NCR have only been around since 2272. 9 years. While they have become a big customer, they are far from our only ones, unless of course, we nuke the strip with the current leading plan.
Tourists have been coming for years, despite heavy raider and escalating legion presence. With the legion sent packing, and NCR pulled back in good order, short an incentive to stay away(rumors of cannibalism and genocide), the NCRs wealth individuals will likely return to sample our luxuries in the medium term.
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Necessary caveat before I post this: I think that, when we're discussing a decision that involves horrific sexual abuse and all the other shit the omertas have been up to (apparently, I haven't played fallout so I'm going by the vibes in the thread), and the use of chlorine gas to kill people (which I am extremely strongly against on principle because it's a needlessly cruel method of killing someone in almost all cases),
So, this is my field (sorta, tangentially; not chemical weapons clean-up specifically because we haven't exactly done that in the past few decades). First of all, chlorine is volatile, yes, so most of it will diffuse away slowly over time. Chlorine will also dissolve into water, and react with water to form hydroclhoric and hypochlorous acid (this is why chlorine is a viable chemical weapon - it turns to acid when it touches your skin/lungs, which then slowly melt away). This makes neutralizing a bottle of chlorine very easy - you just bubble it through an alkaline solution; in an NBC context, you can just open the windows and the wind will take it away from your military assets (and you have bigger ocncerns than where it goes after that).
However, there are some complications. The casino is presumably not airtight, which means that when the bombs go off, a large portion of the chlorine will either seep out through the gaps in the building, or be vented up into a plume by the air conditioning system. Plume rise is a pain in the ass to calculate (I'd have to dig up a textbook to find values) and there are frankly too many unknowns, so I'm going to refrain from doing an estimate of the concentrations in the contaminated area and just say it'd be non-zero. Also, chlorine is denser than air. In WWI, a recurrent problem was that chlorine gas would pool in shell craters so that even well after an attack, troops seeking shelter could get gassed; if there's no wind, then you're reliant on just diffusive mass transfer in stagnant air and that will take a while. This is a problem for things like basements where we'd have to do a systematic sweep of the surrounding area with detectors to make sure that there are no pockets of chlorine gas waiting in the bottom before getting stirred up by a fan or something. Also, this is less significant, but hydrochloric acid will accelerate corrosion, so we probably should take a look at the structure of the casino afterwards to make sure nothing weird has happened.
Thankfully, chlorine isn't like some of the more fun chemical weapons that'll persist as a liquid capable of killing you in minute doses for months. If we were using nerve agents I'd be against this on grounds of sheer stupidity.
All that said, Etran has said that the chlorine gas won't be a serious problem; this is purely me nerding out.