WI: 2020 Pacific US + British Columbia ISOTed to 1968

Going by the 1970s Census, the effect on electoral votes and additional representatives from historic to ISOT would be:

So basically the Dems utterly dominate the house and presidency. They are very under-represented in the Senate though. Wonder if this will cause resentment among downtime conservatives and what they might do.

Also, kinda unrelated but how likely is it that downtime parties implement the primary system as fully as the uptime parties do? It wasn't really as powerful until reforms after the disastrous 1968 DNC.
 
Going by the 1970s Census, the effect on electoral votes and additional representatives from historic to ISOT would be:

CA=45->77 (+32)
WA=9->16 (+7) {this would punt them from 22nd largest state to 8th largest}
OR=6->10 (+4) {this would punt them from 31st largest state to 17th largest}

Also for reference, while Ford won the entire west coast and thus would take the greater net loss assuming they voted 3rd party instead, Carter states lose about 23 electoral votes, which would put him down to 273, putting the results very close to being thrown to the House. But keep in mind that such a scenario does so by delegations with each state getting one vote, so the west coast gains little benefit from such a dynamic. Having 97 representatives would easily give them the balance of power in the House proper though.
What's the geographic distribution of the states that would lose seats? Remember, this is still way past the permanent reapportionment act
 
Going by the 1970s Census, the effect on electoral votes and additional representatives from historic to ISOT would be:

CA=45->77 (+32)
WA=9->16 (+7) {this would punt them from 22nd largest state to 8th largest}
OR=6->10 (+4) {this would punt them from 31st largest state to 17th largest}

Also for reference, while Ford won the entire west coast and thus would take the greater net loss assuming they voted 3rd party instead, Carter states lose about 23 electoral votes, which would put him down to 273, putting the results very close to being thrown to the House. But keep in mind that such a scenario does so by delegations with each state getting one vote, so the west coast gains little benefit from such a dynamic. Having 97 representatives would easily give them the balance of power in the House proper though.
So basically the Dems utterly dominate the house and presidency. They are very under-represented in the Senate though. Wonder if this will cause resentment among downtime conservatives and what they might do.

Also, kinda unrelated but how likely is it that downtime parties implement the primary system as fully as the uptime parties do? It wasn't really as powerful until reforms after the disastrous 1968 DNC.

The bigger issue is that elections with California with the rest of the US would be a farce. Having an election implies there's a chance of the election not being decided already.

If Dixie's Candidate KKK wins, will California stay in the US? If California's President Black, LGBT, and Proud wins, will Dixie stay in the US?

Trying to keep the two radically different areas together requires basically fixing the elections beforehand because the positions are so opposed, which neither side will accept.
 
The bigger issue is that elections with California with the rest of the US would be a farce. Having an election implies there's a chance of the election not being decided already.

If Dixie's Candidate KKK wins, will California stay in the US? If California's President Black, LGBT, and Proud wins, will Dixie stay in the US?

Trying to keep the two radically different areas together requires basically fixing the elections beforehand because the positions are so opposed, which neither side will accept.
That is a serious issue and I think we might see violence from the white South and maybe other hard-right conservatives. Though I'm not sure that would help their cause. Thankfully the Senate does provide somewhat of a counterweight against the west coast, though it still results in loss of two GOP seats when compared to OTL.

Anyway, we've barely talked about BC. Does anyone have any idea on how BC would integrate into Canada?
 
The bigger issue is that elections with California with the rest of the US would be a farce. Having an election implies there's a chance of the election not being decided already.

If Dixie's Candidate KKK wins, will California stay in the US? If California's President Black, LGBT, and Proud wins, will Dixie stay in the US?

Trying to keep the two radically different areas together requires basically fixing the elections beforehand because the positions are so opposed, which neither side will accept.
If Washington has to pick between placating the West Coast or Dixie I don't think it would be a decision for them at all. Again, the dominant Democratic coalition sees the south as an irritating thorn in their side while the new states can provide a rock solid ally.
Anyway, we've barely talked about BC. Does anyone have any idea on how BC would integrate into Canada?
Not Well, I think.

They don't really have the population to make pandering to British Colombian voters worth the risk of alienating other parts of the country, and most British Columbians are pretty hostile to Trudeau's vision of centralization. Granting them more proportionate ridings would cause problems that Ottawa would attempt to put off for as long as humanely possible.

Also their economy probably just tanked even harder and COVID of course puts everybody in an awkward position.
 
Going by the 1970s Census, the effect on electoral votes and additional representatives from historic to ISOT would be:

CA=45->77 (+32)
WA=9->16 (+7) {this would punt them from 22nd largest state to 8th largest}
OR=6->10 (+4) {this would punt them from 31st largest state to 17th largest}
I used the 1970 Census and population figures from July 2019, along with a Python script. I got an additional 32 seats for CA and 4 for OR, but Washington boosted 8 seats rather than 7.
What's the geographic distribution of the states that would lose seats? Remember, this is still way past the permanent reapportionment act
As for who lost, the short answer is "basically everybody, but the bigger states more". New York gives up four seats, PA/TX/IL/OH lose three, Michigan and Florida lose two. TN/AL/OK/AR/NE/UT/NM/ME/RI/HI are all in the high end of their seat ranges so getting shifted down keeps them in that tier. ND/DE/NV/VT/WY/AK were at 1 anyway. Everyone else loses one.

"CA","NY","PA","TX","IL","OH","MI","NJ","FL","MA","IN","NC","MO","VA","GA","WI","TN","MD","MN","LA","AL","WA","KY","CT","IA","SC","OK","KS","MS","CO","OR","AR","AZ","WV","NE","UT","NM","ME","RI","HI","NH","ID","MT","SD","ND","DE","NV","VT","WY","AK"
[75, 35, 22, 21, 21, 20, 17, 14, 13, 11, 10, 10, 9, 9, 9, 8, 8, 7, 7, 7, 7, 15, 6, 6, 5, 5, 5, 4, 4, 4, 8, 4, 3, 3, 3, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1]
[43, 39, 25, 24, 24, 23, 19, 15, 15, 12, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10, 9, 8, 8, 8, 8, 7, 7, 7, 7, 6, 6, 5, 5, 5, 5, 4, 4, 4, 4, 3, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 2, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1, 1]

So basically the Dems utterly dominate the house and presidency. They are very under-represented in the Senate though. Wonder if this will cause resentment among downtime conservatives and what they might do.
I was going to say 'hardly', but looking deeper I think you might be right. California goes from a net of two or three Democrats to around +60. Washington and Oregon go from a combined 8-3 Democratic advantage to probably 20ish Democrats and 3 or so Republicans. Now, some of these 75 new Democrats will come at the expense of Democratic seats elsewhere (how many, depends on who controls the redistricting process in those states, and the 1968 officeholders likely won't be the ones who do it), but the notion that the Democratic caucus won't expand significantly and have a much more powerful liberal contingent is hard to believe. As for the Senate, I'd bet that Mike Mansfield, Senate Majority Leader for sixteen years, will be able to outmaneuver the Dixiecrat contingent with the help of Everett Dirksen, Hugh Scott, and Howard Baker. There is going to be some anger there, you're right, but I think the condemnation of history will weigh on people who aren't fire-breathing segregationists, which at least in the Outer South should be a decent portion.

Also for reference, while Ford won the entire west coast and thus would take the greater net loss assuming they voted 3rd party instead, Carter states lose about 23 electoral votes, which would put him down to 273, putting the results very close to being thrown to the House. But keep in mind that such a scenario does so by delegations with each state getting one vote, so the west coast gains little benefit from such a dynamic. Having 97 representatives would easily give them the balance of power in the House proper though.
With such a massive change in 1968, projecting that Ford and Carter will win all the same states eight years later that they did OTL is more than a little silly. :p
 
I like how everyone just assumes that the up-time and down-time Democratic party just fuse seamlessly and go from victory to victory. To the downtime Democrats, the uptime Dems are insanely radical. We wouldn't be looking at one party, but two very separate parties. The downtime voters, Dem and GOP would take a look at the uptime states and just go "NOPE, not gonna happen!".

Also remember that in 1968, California was the Golden State, a utopia of middle class achievement (maybe not for everyone , but that was the general image). California now is an oligarchy with small group of the insanely wealthy, a collapsing middle class and a giant mass of exploited helots living paycheck to paycheck. Pretty sure 1968 didn't have miles of homeless encampments or people shiting in the streets in LA and San Francisco. How do you think a gay pride parade would look like to the average downtime union Dem voter? Not to mention that the uptime states would have huge economic problems, seeing how much of the supply chain is coming now from overseas.
 
Not to mention that the uptime states would have huge economic problems, seeing how much of the supply chain is coming now from overseas.

That's not an economic problem when literally every nation on Earth is begging for you to produce goods for them in exchange for raw materials, labor, and low quality goods.

Will California need to manufacture more industrial equipment and will people be unable to buy a new IPhone every year? Sure, but that's not an economic problem.
 
Thankfully there is at least some manufacturing of most types electronics and electronics parts on the west coast, if not perhaps enough to meet demand. A good chunk of Intel's fabs are on the west coast for example. That's the main part of the supply chain can't be replaced with downtime manufacturing and or new manufacturing with uptime knowledge. California even has a rare earth mine that is supposed to re-open this year. No doubt there is going to be a lot of stuff that is going to take time to replace in the supply chain and tech is probably going to regress to some extent. The west coast is going to be in for a rough couple years at least until they can unfuck supply chain issues. After about 5-10 years they come back even stronger than before because they have an even bigger stranglehold on the tech industry.

Edit: That rare earth mine is operating since 2017 but it has no processing facilities for the ore at the moment. That is what is being built.
 
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I like how everyone just assumes that the up-time and down-time Democratic party just fuse seamlessly and go from victory to victory. To the downtime Democrats, the uptime Dems are insanely radical. We wouldn't be looking at one party, but two very separate parties. The downtime voters, Dem and GOP would take a look at the uptime states and just go "NOPE, not gonna happen!".
This was still the era of Great Society and to a lesser extent the New Deal. The dominant faction of the party was very forward thinking, in some ways moreso than the Californian Democrats who are still in a lot of ways the product of the Reagan Revolution. There will be A LOT of culture shock and the current situation with COVID and the riots means you're not going to have a squeaky clean image to present to the rest of the country but in the immediate term there is absolutely no incentive for the downtime Democrats to not take advantage of the situation.
 
This was still the era of Great Society and to a lesser extent the New Deal. The dominant faction of the party was very forward thinking, in some ways moreso than the Californian Democrats who are still in a lot of ways the product of the Reagan Revolution. There will be A LOT of culture shock and the current situation with COVID and the riots means you're not going to have a squeaky clean image to present to the rest of the country but in the immediate term there is absolutely no incentive for the downtime Democrats to not take advantage of the situation.

I think there'll be a lot of clashes on programs because the downtime democrats are in some way more economically radical and the uptime democrats are far ahead on social issues. But what are they going to do, work with the republicans who were increasingly set on their historical path?

This could give the west coast GOP a boost though, considering those republicans are slightly less insane.
 
See premise *click*,
See the first post,
Discuss secession or invasion downtime USA.

I understand about autonomy or influence or whatever but outright invasion? THE HELL!!!
I have a conclusion that top politicians/regimes of a country representatives/image of peoples on bottom/root.
Ugh... Oh Why humanity 😱
 
I think there'll be a lot of clashes on programs because the downtime democrats are in some way more economically radical and the uptime democrats are far ahead on social issues. But what are they going to do, work with the republicans who were increasingly set on their historical path?

This could give the west coast GOP a boost though, considering those republicans are slightly less insane.
Theyre at an interesting crossroads right now. If they stay the course they're probably fucked so they have to make up their minds about what kind of party they actually are and do it fast.

One option is to pull an early southern strategy and maybe cut some kind of deal with Wallace to stop him eating their lunch in the south.

On the other hand they might decide that the southern strategy is a dead end and try to fight for democrats who feel alienated by west coast progressivism. That involves breaking into organized labour however and I think that's pretty much always been foreign territory for them. Given future history that's gonna be a real tough sell for the big union bosses.
 
Theyre at an interesting crossroads right now. If they stay the course they're probably fucked so they have to make up their minds about what kind of party they actually are and do it fast.

One option is to pull an early southern strategy and maybe cut some kind of deal with Wallace to stop him eating their lunch in the south.

On the other hand they might decide that the southern strategy is a dead end and try to fight for democrats who feel alienated by west coast progressivism. That involves breaking into organized labour however and I think that's pretty much always been foreign territory for them. Given future history that's gonna be a real tough sell for the big union bosses.

To be honest organized labour is also going to be kinda foreign to uptime democrats too :V

The democrats will have to contend with the fact that they gave up on the New Deal's legacy after Reagan trounced them.

It's not something the republicans are well placed to capitalize on though, so I fully expect another go at the southern strategy, especially as the dixiecrats realize this isn't their party anymore.
 
To be honest organized labour is also going to be kinda foreign to uptime democrats too :V

The democrats will have to contend with the fact that they gave up on the New Deal's legacy after Reagan trounced them.

It's not something the republicans are well placed to capitalize on though, so I fully expect another go at the southern strategy, especially as the dixiecrats realize this isn't their party anymore.
Organized labour still makes up a large part of the democratic political scene, so a lot of the moderate operative types from California are gonna end up drawn into their orbit out of necessity anyways, nevermind the actual progressives.
 
Organized labour still makes up a large part of the democratic political scene, so a lot of the moderate operative types from California are gonna end up drawn into their orbit out of necessity anyways, nevermind the actual progressives.

For sure, but it'll require a bit of adaptation considering the sheer difference in unionization rates. 68 is past the peak, but not by much. The unionization rate is more than double what they're used to.
 
I think there'll be a lot of clashes on programs because the downtime democrats are in some way more economically radical and the uptime democrats are far ahead on social issues. But what are they going to do, work with the republicans who were increasingly set on their historical path?

This could give the west coast GOP a boost though, considering those republicans are slightly less insane.

Remember the West Coast GOP of this time produced Reagan and Nixon (unless you're referring to the 2020 West Coast GOP which is still bad). If you want moderate Republicans in 1968, it's better to look at the Eastern Establishment like Nelson Rockefeller (and even his record was hardly without blemish, as his handling of the Attica Prison Riots attests to).

I don't honestly see the Democrats of 1968 having that many issues with 2020 Democrats. The trends of the party's political development are going leftward anyway and younger Democratic voters will eagerly take up the War on Poverty and other big economic initiatives.

Honestly... the same is probably true of the GOP, they will probably have no problem hopping on board with Nixon... and actually will be to the right of him on things like gun control.
 
It would be funny if the US becomes complacent because they believe the USSR's end is inevitable, when it was in fact quite circumstantial.

That cuts both ways. The Soviet system utterly failed IOTL and the fact that their inevitable march to victory is very much not inevitable is a HUGE deal.
 
That cuts both ways. The Soviet system utterly failed IOTL and the fact that their inevitable march to victory is very much not inevitable is a HUGE deal.

With the dissemination of uptime tech, the Soviets will almost certainly see heavy use of modern electronics well before their OTL collapse, so we'll get to see Computerized Communist Command Economy in action, and it will probably be extremely powerful, especially with the Soviets no doubt going over all their economic data with a fine comb and beating everyone who lies about production on reports to avoid their original problems.
 
That cuts both ways. The Soviet system utterly failed IOTL and the fact that their inevitable march to victory is very much not inevitable is a HUGE deal.
Man, I'd love to be a fly on the wall at those Politiburo meetings. The Brezhnev stagnation gets confronted with the full knowledge of what that stagnation would lead to. OTOH, Suslov and other hardliners will point to Gorbachev's rule as the primary cause of the USSR's collapse.
 
Man, I'd love to be a fly on the wall at those Politiburo meetings. The Brezhnev stagnation gets confronted with the full knowledge of what that stagnation would lead to. OTOH, Suslov and other hardliners will point to Gorbachev's rule as the primary cause of the USSR's collapse.

One thing is for certain, the Eastern Block puppets are going to have the Soviet's hands so far up their ass that they may as well be Soviet Socialist Republics, if they aren't openly turned into SSRs anyway.

Alternatively maybe the SSR system will be abolished as leading to separatism, and it will just be a big happy Soviet Union.
 
With the dissemination of uptime tech, the Soviets will almost certainly see heavy use of modern electronics well before their OTL collapse, so we'll get to see Computerized Communist Command Economy in action, and it will probably be extremely powerful, especially with the Soviets no doubt going over all their economic data with a fine comb and beating everyone who lies about production on reports to avoid their original problems.
Do you think they would get over their political infighting and fully implement the SOFE program?
 
Do you think they would get over their political infighting and fully implement the SOFE program?

Absolutely, with garbage uptime electronics being far better than anything downtime has, electronics will be decades more advanced than OTL in just a few short years.

Especially since they know the nation will collapse without the advancements.
 
I think the most likely outcome for the Soviet economy is a continuation of the Kosygin reforms, they were already generally in place at the time and sort-of worked. But that probably too depends on how reformism is dealt with as OTL they were rolled back after the backlash to Prague Spring.
 
I think the most likely outcome for the Soviet economy is a continuation of the Kosygin reforms, they were already generally in place at the time and sort-of worked. But that probably too depends on how reformism is dealt with as OTL they were rolled back after the backlash to Prague Spring.
On that note: the ISOT is on June 1 and the Soviets invaded to stop the Prague Spring on August 21. How they deal with Czechoslovakia will greatly influence uptimer opinion of them.
 
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