Whirlwind Productions (Cyclone's snippets & update announcements)

[Reveen]

One side overidealizes morally questionable characters base on Draco in Leather Pants. The other side overidealizes morally questionable characters base on They're Superheroes, So It's Okay. Both sides ahould just reread the bloody serial because they're completely ignoring key character beats and themes of the work, and because neither of them have solid grounding in canon in the first place.

 

[Ack]

...Or, or, or, or, or... Or, and bare with me because this is a totally revolutionary idea -- he could've quit, left Brockton Bay with Amelia, and retired with her somewhere far away to live a peaceful life. I mean, sure, it'd accomplish what you're saying, but using your argument of condemning people for things they could've done but didn't...

If the heroes were determined to endanger a girl they couldn't have known was there and, thus, were in the wrong...

...Then if Marquis could've left long before this with Amelia in tow and didn't, he is also in the wrong.

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Nope.

Stop right there.

No matter what else he's done (and I freely admit Marquis was a pretty nasty character under the wrong circumstances) you can not blame him for someone else's misjudgement of the situation. As far as he knew, his secret identity was secure, and thus, so was Amelia.

You simply can't predicate your entire life on what someone else 'might' do. Nor can you be blamed for their actions.

The Brigade came in without doing due diligence or informing the authorities. They committed home invasion. Their entire focus was on the man who had trounced them more than once, so much so that they probably didn't even think to look for evidence of another person on site.

That's on them. They are the ones who endangered Amelia, not him.

The test of this is to ask the question: What would have happened if they hadn't attacked?

Answer: He would have continued being her dad.

Yes, he's a criminal. Yes, he undoubtedly deserved to go to jail for his many crimes. But that specific one? Not on him.

But on a scale of who's the bigger asshole, yeah, you're misplacing the blame here. In one corner, you have a crime lord who's well known for killing people on a regular basis -- no matter his "code of honor", he's a murderer. You don't let murderers walk.

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Granted. But you should also tailor your actions to the situation. And if cops had busted in like that, no warrant, no idea of who was in the house, then the case would never have made it to court. Due process is a thing.

In the other corner, you have a team of heroes who probably could've done a better job... but didn't.

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They almost certainly could have done a better job. Uber and Leet could have done a better job (I'm almost joking, there). The only way they won was by unwittingly endangering a little girl. By using his desire to protect his daughter against him. Yes, they didn't know. But if Brandish had killed her, she would still have been dead.

And I can't stress enough that the way they conducted the fight was more villainous than heroic. Seriously, they used the women in the team as human shields. How fucking wrong is that? Yes, they were certain that he wouldn't deliberately hurt a woman. But as they themselves can attest, it's possible to hurt or kill someone by accident. Especially when you're throwing around attacks that can penetrate walls. Without checking to see if there might be an innocent on the other side of the wall.

"They didn't know that she was there, so they can't be blamed for that."

I don't know if a gun is loaded when I pick it up, but I act as though it is, every time. Because if I pull the trigger, thinking that it's unloaded, and it's loaded, and it goes off and kills someone, guess what? I'm liable.

They tried their best to help people and save them from danger, and they acted to the best of their ability to do this. If you're arguing they were screw-ups, sure. I can get behind that.

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They would've been better off joining the Protectorate. At least there's oversight there.

And then their later utter fuckup involving unmasking en masse, which led directly to Fleur's death. Which also put their kids in the public eye, never giving them the choice toward having masks if and when they triggered. That could have gone so catastrophically wrong. It's a measure of how massively moronic it was that nobody else took up the New Wave banner.

But you're not going to win an argument by saying Marquis was totally in the right and the heroes in this case were totally in the wrong.

At best, the heroes were about thirty percent in the wrong... and going against someone who was ninety percent in the wrong. It's not even close.

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I'd put them at closer to sixty percent in the wrong. Lack of due diligence, failure to alert the authorities, invading a private residence without a warrant ... to be honest, they were lucky as fuck.

 

[TheUnicorn]

And then their later utter fuckup involving unmasking en masse, which led directly to Fleur's death.

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Is this actually canon? I think it's canon that the New Wave movement floundered after Fleur's death, but even if the two events were related that does not mean someone deliberately targeted Fleur's civilian ID as opposed to her getting killed in a home invasion/carjacking/robbery gone wrong while in her civilian ID.

 

[Ack]

Is this actually canon? I think it's canon that the New Wave movement floundered after Fleur's death, but even if the two events were related that does not mean someone deliberately targeted Fleur's civilian ID as opposed to her getting killed in a home invasion/carjacking/robbery gone wrong while in her civilian ID.

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She was attacked and killed in her own home. She was publicly known as a cape. Nobody in their right mind would choose a cape's house for a simple robbery, so the very strong inference is that they went there with the express purpose of killing her.

Also, iirc there's WoG somewhere that indicates that it was an aspiring member of the Empire Eighty-Eight who did it, and that Kaiser killed him for it.

 

[serra2]

She was attacked and killed in her own home. She was publicly known as a cape. Nobody in their right mind would choose a cape's house for a simple robbery, so the very strong inference is that they went there with the express purpose of killing her.

Also, iirc there's WoG somewhere that indicates that it was an aspiring member of the Empire Eighty-Eight who did it, and that Kaiser killed him for it.

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...She was attacked and killed in public by a guy looking to get in with the E88. That is all we know. Everything else you said is bad fanon you made up.

 

[Seed00]

......

This line of discussion is not going to end well. I have larger response but I keep deleting them after asking why do I bother? Better to stand on the sidelines and lurk in this little shindig.

 

[Ack]

...She was attacked and killed in public by a guy looking to get in with the E88. That is all we know. Everything else you said is bad fanon you made up.

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What part? The fact that she was publicly known as a cape, and that the guy who killed her was looking to get in with the Empire Eighty-Eight?

Here's the thing. If she was in costume, then she was putting herself out there. She wasn't. She was in civilian wear, doing civilian things. But the point is that she was a known cape. The guy who attacked her had to have known that. He specifically went after her in her civilian identity, knowing that she was a cape. The intent to kill is almost guaranteed.

Which still means that the Brigade, in going after Marquis in his secret identity, did exactly the same thing. Only, instead of almost murdering her, the wanna-be E88 guy did kill her.

Would this have happened if the Brigade hadn't gone New Wave? Probably not.

Would it have happened if they hadn't publicly attacked and captured Marquis in his own home and set the precedent? Maybe, maybe not. We'll never know.

But the possibility exists that attacking Fleur in her civilian identity was in some way inspired by the Marquis capture. And in any case, even if it wasn't, it was still a very shitty precedent to set.

 

[Cyclone]

...She was attacked and killed in public by a guy looking to get in with the E88. That is all we know. Everything else you said is bad fanon you made up.

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Citation on any details about Fleur's death? I really would like to know what canon and WoG has to say about it -- for future reference, if nothing else -- and I can't seem to find any of it.

As for the discussion... I have rebuttals and arguments I can make, but honestly? I'm sick of this discussion. I was sick of it when I stopped following the Another Way thread. I was sick of it when it came up here (or the SB version; can't even remember which) after I posted my own take on Hostage Situation that Ack encouraged me to write. I posted my rant because I needed to get things off my chest, not to start yet another argument on the relative morality between the multiple murderer and the reckless home invaders (equally unflattering descriptions chosen to avoid further conflict or accidental sniping). I should have expected something like this would happen, and that's on me.

But it's not like any of us is going to convince anyone else, so what say we just leave it be?

I have a new snippet that's undergoing review after a few last tweaks, and I should be posting it up in the next couple of days.

 

[BBBence1111]

Are you people still arguing who did the right thing in a situation where clearly everyone was in the wrong?

The Brigade for not following any kind of protocol, while Marquis for being a supervillain.

And I can't quote Ack's post, but: Basing your security on a secret identity is hilariously stupid. You are not two separate people, you are a guy in a mask. Expecting law enforcement to stop trying to take you in is a good way to get yourself caught.

Edit: Damn Ninjas

 

[serra2]

Citation on any details about Fleur's death? I really would like to know what canon and WoG has to say about it -- for future reference, if nothing else -- and I can't seem to find any of it.

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It's, like, an off-hand remark by either Lisa or Taylor when discussing New Wave. Like, all they mention is what I said, New Wave took off Masks, Movement failed when Fleur got killed rumor was E88 dude looking to get in.

And all this talk about going to the PRT, did they even have a presence in the city at the time of the Raid? We know thye were around when Lung cam in to town years later, but almost no one mentions them or the Protectorate as a force around the time of Marquis.

 

[TheUnicorn]

She was attacked and killed in her own home.

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Is there a cite for that?

Nobody in their right mind would choose a cape's house for a simple robbery, so the very strong inference is that they went there with the express purpose of killing her.

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You're assuming the robbers knew who was living in the house they were planning to rob, that they knew she was in the house at the time, and thatthey heard about her being a cape.

Also, iirc there's WoG somewhere that indicates that it was an aspiring member of the Empire Eighty-Eight who did it, and that Kaiser killed him for it.

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Do you have a cite for that? I'm pretty sure that's fanon.

 

[Bailey Matutine]

Citation on any details about Fleur's death? I really would like to know what canon and WoG has to say about it -- for future reference, if nothing else -- and I can't seem to find any of it.

As for the discussion... I have rebuttals and arguments I can make, but honestly? I'm sick of this discussion. I was sick of it when I stopped following the Another Way thread. I was sick of it when it came up here (or the SB version; can't even remember which) after I posted my own take on Hostage Situation that Ack encouraged me to write. I posted my rant because I needed to get things off my chest, not to start yet another argument on the relative morality between the multiple murderer and the reckless home invaders (equally unflattering descriptions chosen to avoid further conflict or accidental sniping). I should have expected something like this would happen, and that's on me.

But it's not like any of us is going to convince anyone else, so what say we just leave it be?

I have a new snippet that's undergoing review after a few last tweaks, and I should be posting it up in the next couple of days.

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One of the interludes mentions offhand that one of the things the New Wave movement was stalled out by was a criminal (no details given) killing "one of the core members" in "her" civilian identity. Her name is not mentioned in that interlude, and in fact she's only mentioned by name in Carol's interlude, if I recall correctly. The interlude that mentions her death is in the context of somebody who is wishing that their movement hadn't fallen through, but wasn't part of it.

So for all we know she was standing in line at a convenience store and one of the teeth fired a gun around while high as balls before grabbing the entire cash register and running away.

 

[Cyclone]

One of the interludes mentions offhand that one of the things the New Wave movement was stalled out by was a criminal (no details given) killing "one of the core members" in "her" civilian identity. Her name is not mentioned in that interlude, and in fact she's only mentioned by name in Carol's interlude, if I recall correctly. The interlude that mentions her death is in the context of somebody who is wishing that their movement hadn't fallen through, but wasn't part of it.

So for all we know she was standing in line at a convenience store and one of the teeth fired a gun around while high as balls before grabbing the entire cash register and running away.

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Yeah, I do remember running across it once, but not seeing anything linking it to the Empire even tangentially or, really, anything beyond "killed in her civilian identity."

Found it. Thanks!

Back in Brockton Bay, New Wave had tried to start something, capes without masks. It had been disastrous. The message had been lost in the ensuing celebrity, and that had only intensified after one of the core members of the group was found and killed in her civilian identity.

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So, yeah. No mention of who did it, how, when, why, or where.

If someone has a citation with more details, though, I'd still like to have it for future reference. As in, an actual citation or quote with link.

 

[Bailey Matutine]

Yeah, I do remember running across it once, but not seeing anything linking it to the Empire even tangentially or, really, anything beyond "killed in her civilian identity."

Found it. Thanks!



So, yeah. No mention of who did it, how, when, why, or where.

If someone has a citation with more details, though, I'd still like to have it for future reference. As in, an actual citation or quote with link.

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I went onto the parahumans IRC and asked if anyone had a citation for any details about Fleur's death.

Wildbow came in, said he absolutely never gave details, and said we could buy an interlude with donation money if we wanted more details.

 

[Ack]

Okay, wasn't going to weigh in here, but Fleur was a celebrity. All of New Wave were. Their faces went nationwide.

For her to be killed by someone who didn't know who she was, who didn't know she was a cape, would be like Brad Pitt wandering into the grocery store to pick up a six-pack of Coke, and the guy holding up the store not recognising him.

Overall, there's a strong inference that the unmasking led directly to her being targeted and killed (which is more likely than an accidental homicide, given that capes make enemies). This is borne out by the fact that following the death, nobody else took up the concept. If her death was clearly proven to have nothing to do with her being an unmasked cape, then there wouldn't have been as much of a problem.

And all this talk about going to the PRT, did they even have a presence in the city at the time of the Raid? We know thye were around when Lung cam in to town years later, but almost no one mentions them or the Protectorate as a force around the time of Marquis.

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"Let's call the PRT," Manpower said. "We should get Marquis into custody stat."

"Wouldn't mind some medical treatment, if you could rush that?" Marquis asked.

"…And medical treatment," Manpower amended his statement.

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They're talking like they expect the PRT to show up relatively quickly (ie, from within the city, not driving from Boston).

 

[serra2]

Overall, there's a strong inference that the unmasking led directly to her being targeted and killed (which is more likely than an accidental homicide, given that capes make enemies). This is borne out by the fact that following the death, nobody else took up the concept. If her death was clearly proven to have nothing to do with her being an unmasked cape, then there wouldn't have been as much of a problem.

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Well, yeah no one took up the whole "No Mask" concept, it was not even all that popular to begin with. It's like the Kardashians trying to start a new social trend about wearing sausages on your head, unless there was already a groundswell with it, it goes nowhere.
There is nothing in the text that indicates that this was a direct assassination by one of her enemies. At worst, this is a "Will no one rid me of this priest" type situation, with some underling looking to advance by making a play. The fact that no one else in the family got targeted and killed seems to indicate how much their enemies cared about targeting them.

They're talking like they expect the PRT to show up relatively quickly (ie, from within the city, not driving from Boston).

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So, the PRT probably had a squad or two in the city, but no mention of Protectorate forces. Given these are Independent Heroes, their interactions with the PRT are likely limited to handing off criminals at the most, as the PRT officers have a mostly bad on-screen record against capes.

For her to be killed by someone who didn't know who she was, who didn't know she was a cape, would be like Brad Pitt wandering into the grocery store to pick up a six-pack of Coke, and the guy holding up the store not recognising him.

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I think it was Al Pachino who once joked about joining a Al Pacino look-alike contest.... and coming in 4th place. There is a shit-ton of things that can be done with make-up and styling to make someone unrecognizable.

 

[Ars Poetica]

For her to be killed by someone who didn't know who she was, who didn't know she was a cape, would be like Brad Pitt wandering into the grocery store to pick up a six-pack of Coke, and the guy holding up the store not recognising him.

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You know what, that's a really interesting point. Let's let Reddit decide if you're right and see what happens.

 

[serra2]

You know what, that's a really interesting point. Let's let Reddit decide if you're right and see what happens.

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Why did you post that on r/ShowerThoughts? Why not on r/AskReddit?

 

[Ars Poetica]

Why did you post that on r/ShowerThoughts? Why not on r/AskReddit?

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I've legit never used Reddit before. Ever.

EDIT: Let's try this again.



Also, @Ghoul King, I know you're probably busy and have no reason to come here, but you're probably one of the most well-read Worm experts on the site. Think you could weigh-in on this and end the debate before it spirals out of control?

 

[BBBence1111]

Okay, wasn't going to weigh in here, but Fleur was a celebrity. All of New Wave were. Their faces went nationwide.

For her to be killed by someone who didn't know who she was, who didn't know she was a cape, would be like Brad Pitt wandering into the grocery store to pick up a six-pack of Coke, and the guy holding up the store not recognising him.

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Brad Pitt could walk into a store I'm in, introduce himself as Brad and I wouldn't have an idea. I know who he is but I couldn't pick him out of a 100 people.

Overall, there's a strong inference that the unmasking led directly to her being targeted and killed (which is more likely than an accidental homicide, given that capes make enemies). This is borne out by the fact that following the death, nobody else took up the concept. If her death was clearly proven to have nothing to do with her being an unmasked cape, then there wouldn't have been as much of a problem.

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She could have died due to something completely random and still stalled New Wave. Why? The Media love to pick up stories like this, and many capes would see unmasked>died, while missing the actual reason.

Also, I just find the whole concept of secret identities stupid. Protecting yourself/family? Police don't get masks. Not going after superpowered criminals in their ci? Let me just shout "my thinker power told me the police are coming" while robbing a store or ten then never go out wearing that mask again.

 

[TheUnicorn]

Okay, wasn't going to weigh in here, but Fleur was a celebrity. All of New Wave were. Their faces went nationwide.

For her to be killed by someone who didn't know who she was, who didn't know she was a cape, would be like Brad Pitt wandering into the grocery store to pick up a six-pack of Coke, and the guy holding up the store not recognising him.

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First, that happens. The more famous the star the less likely it is but it does happen.
Second, there's a big difference between recognizing the person's face, and knowing the person is there in the store you're planning to rob, or even that the house you're planning to rob belongs to the cape in question(heck the sudden realization that the robber was facing a cape could have been what led to her getting killed).
Third, in poor light conditions, especially with adrenaline involved people too often fail to recognize their own family (with often unfortunate results when they think someone is trying to break into the house)
Fourth while I agree it's likely that New wave did get their faces on the national news given how many Americans have no idea who their vice president is you're SERIOUSLY overestimating how recognizable that makes them
Fifth if someone can try robbing a gun store with a knife I can see someone trying to rob a cape with a gun.

Overall, there's a strong inference that the unmasking led directly to her being targeted and killed

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Where do you get that inference from?

She could have died due to something completely random and still stalled New Wave.

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She could have died of a heart attack or some other perfectly natural cause and still stalled New Wave. her death would have affected the rest of the family and for something like New Wave to become a movement you need someone charismatic to convince other capes to join, if either she or her husband were the heart or the face of the group her death and her husband leaving would have stalled any attempt to turn their gesture into a movement.

 

[Cyclone]

Lightning Bug (Worm/DC TV-verse)​

We lapsed into silence. I'd told her my story, but I didn't know how much she'd believe of it. After all, this Earth had somehow escaped virtually untouched by Gold Morning.

But... I suppose that wasn't really important. In a way, I guess I was just hoping for some closure.

"So," Anne-Rose said, "what are you doing now? After all that... excitement, I mean."

"Going to college," I answered. "Somehow, I got a scholarship to Hudson University, believe it or not, and I even got an internship at a nearby research lab." Boy, had that been a surprise. I could only assume Contessa had pulled some strings for some reason. I chuckled. "You know, Dad actually got a job offer with the local ILWU chapter in this city, but... well..." I shrugged.

Aside from unconfirmed rumors and legends that every Earth had, this Earth hadn't had any capes until about a year ago, as far as I could tell, but this city was where things seemed to be kicking off, and in a big way at that.

She nodded in understanding. "I get it. With the quake last year and that vigilante running around, I don't blame you." She leaned back. "I'd leave myself, but... the Glades are my home. I'm sure you can relate."

I could. Brockton Bay had been a shithole, and Leviathan had done a lot more damage than the earthquake here had, but... it had still been home. Home enough for me to stay. Home enough for me to threaten the mayor in his own house and nearly kill his son in front of him for it.

"You have a place to stay tonight?" she asked.

I shook my head. "No. I've got to catch the train tonight if I want to make it back in time for the big night tomorrow."

"Oh?" She pursed her lips, and after a moment, realization crossed her face. "Ohhh." Not surprising. It had been all over national news. She nodded. "Well, good luck, Taylor."

"Thanks."

With that, I got up and left.

A couple of hours later found me waiting at the train station. I tensed as an SCPD officer walking by on a foot patrol caught me watching him and met my gaze, but he just gave me a friendly smile and a reassuring nod before continuing on his way.

So, this was my life now. No Skitter, no Weaver, no Khepri. No more being a wanted criminal. No more powers. No more capes. No more costumes. No more heroes or villains.

Just Taylor. Just... normal.

And you know what? I think... I think I could maybe learn to be okay with that.

But first, I had to get back... home.

To Central City.

Cisco would be so disappointed if I wasn't there when they turned on the particle accelerator tomorrow night.

 

[BF110C4]

Taylor, are you sure you're not a living bad luck magnet? Because you're worse news to a city than most natural disasters.

 

[BBBence1111]

I'm not sure what's worse. The fact that she's in the Arrowverse or that we all know what's going to happen...

 

[Franklymydear]

we all know what's going to happen...

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Nice for all you 'all'.

How about for those of us who don't?