- Location
- Earth
We might be able to get some up-to-date information about the Lahmian conspiracy out of her.
[WHF] The Broken Mirror - A Divided Loyalties Peggy Sue
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Approval voting Gabriella since I think she's way better than the Zhufbar guy, they're 1 vote apart at the moment, and jack albright isn't getting in.
[X] [Investigate] Take the chance on a rapid follow-up
[X] [Watch] You don't have time to micromanage Wurtbad - integrate them.
[X] [Social] Joining Thekla Donatus, Abelhelm and Hans von Eerie at the castle for a meal
[X] [Social] Getting to know Melkoth before he officially becomes your superior
[X] [Social] Letting Kurtis Krammovich question you
[X] [Social] Discussing the Cult of Sigmar with Emanuel Sigtreu
[X] [Social] Discussing with Jack Albright your different relationships with Ranald
[X] [Social] Visiting Gabriella in her Sylvanian home, and asking about her recommending you for Stirland
[X] [Investigate] Take the chance on a rapid follow-up
[X] [Watch] You don't have time to micromanage Wurtbad - integrate them.
[X] [Social] Joining Thekla Donatus, Abelhelm and Hans von Eerie at the castle for a meal
[X] [Social] Getting to know Melkoth before he officially becomes your superior
[X] [Social] Letting Kurtis Krammovich question you
[X] [Social] Discussing the Cult of Sigmar with Emanuel Sigtreu
[X] [Social] Discussing with Jack Albright your different relationships with Ranald
[X] [Social] Visiting Gabriella in her Sylvanian home, and asking about her recommending you for Stirland
Fayhem
Definitely not an escaped SCP
- Location
- At large
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Ah, I see you replied before my insta-edit of my own post. Sorry, I know it's arguably at least semi-bad form but it occurred to me I wasn't actually making the case that was in my head, and I should fix that. But yes, this exactly.
We have in another timeline, so we know what we need to know.
I don't think that we've any reason to believe that she actually likes Mathilde, or that she wouldn't throw her straight under the bus if it suited her. It seems quite probable that she's an enemy here, not a friend, and that all going to her will do is tip her off that Mathilde is a threat rather than an asset of hers.
Gabrielle is currently in a very good position. All Mathilde is going to do is screw that up for her.
Warhammer gods seem quite happy to have two of their favoured champions and even their blessed priests kills each other using the powers that they granted them. We can't assume that Ranald will intervene to prevent us going head to head. We've actually no reason to believe that Ranald actually doe communicate with Gabrielle that directly. She claims he does, but as the claimed high priestess of the god of lies, it's safe to assume everything she says is a lie. We also know that different parts of Ranald's Cult characterise him very differently, down to quite fundamental details of his character and origin.
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The guy we just hired?
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
His name is spelled differently in the voting option: earlier in the quest it was Sigetreu.
I think it is worth a single social action to check.
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- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
Dagn Typos.
- Location
- Earth
At least it's the same guy I missed before as well
Are we certain he's not a Grey with Take No Heed?
Doing that will tip her off that there's something very wrong indeed about Mathilde. The Mathilde she knows of shouldn't be coming to pay a social call on her, she shouldn't know there's anything special about her compared to any other Stirland noblewoman.
Worse, tipping her off may mean tipping off the Lahmian Sisterhood if she decided that she's better off keeping her cover with them for now and earning more credibility by warning them about Mathilde.
This isn't about the opportunity cost of a social action, this is about surrendering a massive advantage over someone who may well turn out to be an enemy in this timeline.
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- Location
- Earth
Mathilde's and Gabriella's mutual friend would have opinions on that.
Some interpretations of Ranald might object. Some might not. Which version of Ranald Gabrielle follows is not something we know.
Warhammer gods don't object to their worshippers or priests killing of each other. Some of Ulric's priests apparently also pay their respects to the Chaos Gods despite others of them believing that they're the enemy of all life. Things are not that black and white with the gods.
Also, depending on the vampire, they could well embody Ranald's doctrine very well. Lying, cheating, stealing are all things many vampires specialise in. Just because the Lahmians' are vampires doesn't mean that he has to hate them. The Sisterhood is, after all, a revolutionary organisation dedicated to the overthrow of the existing (patriarchal) order and replacing it with something they think is better. They steal, they lie, and they take serious risks as they operate. Ranald could almost be their . They even stole eternal life from the gods, depending on how you interpret it. You can see similarities between Ranald supping from Shallya's chalice and the origins of vampirism from the chalice that held the Elixir of Life.
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- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
I'm pretty sure Ranald will have told her about what's up given that in the original timeline he told her about the Divine Mugging and came to her with a scheme about becoming Empress. So she knows something is up with us. The only thing left to change is what we know.
I recognize that convincing you of this is unlikely because you have strong idiosyncratic opinions on whether or not gods can actually communicate directly and straightforwardly with their followers, but I am arguing this point for the sake of unconvinced people on the sidelines.
- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
Eh, Ulric (preaches every man for themself, self-sufficiency and survival), Khorne (preaches kill stuff in combat) and Khaine (preaches stab people in the back) are known for that.
Other gods aren't generally seen blessing two people on opposite sides of a fight. It happens, but very rarely. (And before you point at the wargame - you can have the Grand Theogonist fighting for both sides in the wargame. There are limits to its simulationism.)
Given Mathilde's knowledge of the divine in general, breaking a gods tenets is a good way to have that god side against you. Two relevant Ranaldan tenets:
"There is no honour among thieves, yet trust in your brothers and sisters, for there is honour among Ranaldans."
"Betraying a fellow to authorities is the cardinal sin."
I'll also note that I've seen claims in the DL thread that those Shallyans who kill people to prevent the spread of plague can cast divine spells just fine. Those claims are false - joining that sect massively reduces their ability to cast miracles in WFRP canon.
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I think that the argument that gods can directly and straightforwardly communicate with their followers is the idiosyncratic view that is very weakly supported by the texts.
There are plenty of Sigmarite schisms that seem to be able to have priests on both sides. Hell, all the Cults are written to be divided and have internal conflicts and heresies that wouldn't happen if the god could and would tell one side they were wrong. It eliminates a huge number of plot hooks around religion if you have gods telling priests who is right and who is wrong about theological or secular matters. On a meta-level, it would be bad design, which is why Tome of Salvation is full of descriptions about the internal divisions between Cults.
On your point about the tabletop, a lot of the setting is written to support that ability of any armies, including from the same faction, to justifiably face each other on the battle field with their powers working. That's why you need a setting where two battle priests of Sigmar can be on opposite sides of a battle and both their spells work.
More specifically, here, Mathilde is the authorities. The Lahmian sisterhood isn't. On the trust point, the question is trust them to do what.
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- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Not in quest canon.
Ranald can communicate with Mathilde more clearly by Word of Boney, but chooses not to. So that makes it very plausible that he does communicate clearly with Heidi, like she has claimed, and which explains how she knows about what we have done that is relevant to Ranald before anyone could have told her.
Again, we've had this argument before and I don't expect to convince you. This is for the folks in the back who might be scared off by "oh maybe we will be letting Heidi know something is up and she can tell the Lahmians." She knows.
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- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
DL canon - Ranald can and does directly and straightforwardly communicate with Mathilde (psychic communication to go with the "don't") and with Wolf (drawing The Magister and The Priest from a deck with no major arcana).
He may or may not be exceptional for a god in having that ability - but given as he's the god in question that's a relevant factor.
Gods have tenets and then they have interpretations. Disobeying the tenets weakens your relationship with the god. Ignoring someone's interpretation doesn't.
If The Empire is on both sides of a conflict, such as in a civil war, you can have Sigmarites on both sides of that conflict without problem - both are defending "The Empire". But you cannot have Sigmarites fighting against The Empire without their spellcasting ability rapidly fading.
It's unclear exactly why that happens, but theories range from "The gods are psychic manifestations of certain personality types" to "The Gods are real people, but they can only see through the eyes of their priests and thus don't know which side is right if their followers don't"
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That's a perfectly reasonable standpoint - as long as it remains within the tenets it's unclear how gods will react. But Mathilde doesn't generally think of Ranald as the sort to treat "out her to vampires" as an acceptable response. If she did, she couldn't have such high Piety.
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- Location
- Earth
Ranald's no shanking rule does not apply to Chaos worshippers and likely Vampires as well.
He certainly never complained about Mathilde using the Nightprowler to kill all those Necromancers in the College of Necromancy.
- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
"A true devotee of Ranald uses the dagger and stiletto; only amateurs and the slow-witted need armour and long sword."
He doesn't have a no-shanking rule. He has a no-unnecessary-shanking rule.
To take an example of gods and their ability to communicate. Before 2150 IC, Stromfels and his Cult didn't exist. Mannan was the god of the sea and sailing, including storms and shipwrecks. The High Elves didn't like that, and they struck a side deal when they signed the Treaty of Amity and Commerce with Marienberg to have political pressure put on the Cult to change their practices.
As a result, the Cult of Mannan changed their doctrine and rituals to exclude the negative aspects of their god from their worship. Some of Mannan's priests refused to go along with that and those that escaped the resulting purge went underground. The new orthodoxy of the Cult of Mannan proclaimed that those who kept the old style of worship were heretics, and later that they were worshippers of a proscribed god who they called Stromfels.
Both the new orthodoxy and the underground traditionalists both believed they worship Mannan. They both used very similar rituals, prayers, and other forms of worship, but the legal Cult has edited sections out. They both get granted divine miracles by Mannan, despite the fact that they're in a war to the death over the nature of their god.
At no point is there any mention that Mannan could, should, or would be able or be expected to express an opinion on the matter to his priests.
Mathilde has a divine reality warping relic of phenomenal power that gives Ranald a possible unique ability to use to communicate with her when she turns the Coin to the appropriate face. Most people don't.
As a result, the Cult of Mannan changed their doctrine and rituals to exclude the negative aspects of their god from their worship. Some of Mannan's priests refused to go along with that and those that escaped the resulting purge went underground. The new orthodoxy of the Cult of Mannan proclaimed that those who kept the old style of worship were heretics, and later that they were worshippers of a proscribed god who they called Stromfels.
Both the new orthodoxy and the underground traditionalists both believed they worship Mannan. They both used very similar rituals, prayers, and other forms of worship, but the legal Cult has edited sections out. They both get granted divine miracles by Mannan, despite the fact that they're in a war to the death over the nature of their god.
At no point is there any mention that Mannan could, should, or would be able or be expected to express an opinion on the matter to his priests.
Mathilde has a divine reality warping relic of phenomenal power that gives Ranald a possible unique ability to use to communicate with her when she turns the Coin to the appropriate face. Most people don't.
- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
Wolf didn't, but Ranald could insert tarot cards into his deck of playing cards in order to send him a message when Mathilde first met him.
Ranald is specifically called out as a shockingly personable god. Admittedly Mathilde's never seen him talk to anyone without the "magic powers" mutation, which is one of the things she might discuss with Albright if he wins social vote at some point in future.
pucflek
Verified simpleton
- Location
- Czech Republic
Ranald is literally a thief that nailed a goddess so hard it elevated him to divinity.
THE FUCKING WIDOW LITERALLY SHITTALKED KHORNE IN FRONT OF US over at original quest.
What part of that is not direct communication. Even if you don't believe Heidi has direct uplink to him, which like, weird, but okay, the rest is quite clear.
(another possible examples include Asuryan possessing at least some incarnations of Phoenix King, Grombrindal literally walking amongst mortals, whatever the fuck Lady is doing with the Prophettes and personally giving every Grail Knight the cup they drink from)
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Is Ranald a shockingly personable god, or wa that from one of storyeater's omakes?
Things like messing with a deck of cards (which could be done by influencing someone to miss-sort them) is the kind of omen I'd expect of a Warhammer god. It's indirect and can be explained away as a very peculiar accident, and it requires interpretation. I could easily see Heidi, for example, using card based divination techniques to communicate with him and interpreting the patterns of the order in which she draws the cards after randomising them as messages from them.
What I wouldn't expect is that they'd be unambiguous or something that can be proved to be divine intervention if someone disputed it.
Just as I'd expect that a Verenan priest might see messages by turning to a random page in a book or similar text based divination. You'd do something in a God's portfolio that they could influence and interpret the result.
Some of Ranald's worshippers believe that he was always a god and ran a con on Shallya where he pretended to be a mortal to steal power from her.
Whether Ranald was a mortal, or whether he's a god that was formed from the legend of a mortal's accompaniment, is something we don't know. The entire story may never have happened at all, just as Ulric probably wasn't originally a god of wolves despite his modern worshippers fervently believing he always was. The gods' mythic histories may well be that, myths. Perhaps with some lesser or greater seed of truth, perhaps without. In the case of Ranald, god of lies and liars, then it seems that the stories his Cult tells of his origin and the least reliable.
And can you quote where we heard the Widow talk to Khorne?
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- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
Either Ranald is particularly personable, or every god is entirely capable of talking directly to their followers in ways that are absolutely undeniable.
Because adding tarot cards to a deck that doesn't have them - not a deck from which they've been removed, one that doesn't even have them to begin with - is not subtle.
Take your pick, because I can't be bothered to look it up right now.