- Location
- Volksstaat Hessen, Deutsches Reich
It is hard to beat Equatorial Pork.
What's the most Cringeworthy Alternate History you've ever read?
- Thread starter Silent Runner
- Start date
- Post-1900
I was always suspicious about that scene in Lord of the Rings where the hobbits are in the middle of the non-farming wilderness and somehow break out lots of nice crispy "bacon" to eat. These are hobbits, they would have eaten all of their supplies much earlier. I wondered if that was Equatorial Bacon they'd collected off some other poor lost traveller.
- Location
- Somewhere
Bacon is a cured meat, it's actually a good thing to take traveling. At least the way it would have been cured in that tech level.
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ExNihilo
SPACE!
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Indeed. Bacon, which wasn't, admittedly, the stuff we think of today but more adjacent to jerky, was used as a traveling food quite often. One place, in particular, I remember from grade school was on the Oregon Trail.
Food on the Oregon Trail
- Location
- Rex, NC, USA
You don't know the half of it.
After Rumsfeld abolishes all economic regulations, the corporations eventually learn that a totally unregulated free market isn't nearly as fun as it sounds. Together with the disastrous invasion of Cuba, this proves to be Rumsfeld's downfall, and he's deposed in January 1988. Rumsfeld's VP tries to repair the damage done, but is unsuccessful. The Christian Right, who has formed their own party, exploits the American public's anger to win the 1988 elections. The fundies then proceed to unleash their own reign of terror on America.
Oh, I know bacon is a good thing to take travelling, but in the movie they were depicted as running out of Bree without a chance to collect supplies, and then had travelled for several weeks. With the amount hobbits were depicted as eating, they would have run out of nice crispy bacon long before then, unless they procured it off someone.
Madam Carstein
Cheerful Middenlander Demoness
- Location
- Middenland
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Hers
There were times where people would call the author out on a blatantly unrealistic/implausible outcome to an event and he just sort of blew them off. The Carnation Revolution resulting in a communist Portugal was... ultimately one of the TL's more mild implausibilities (because frankly most people aren't an expert on the politics of the 1970's opposition to the Estado Novo) but it really is a good example of how a timeline doesn't need to be a wank where everything is better and everyone succeeds at everything to actually be extremely implausible. Fear and Loathing is also fairly well-written, which as with most AH is good at disguising the flaws of a TL.
Oddly enough, one of the first TLs I ever really read on Alternate History: A World of Laughter, A World of Tears which deals with a fictional presidency of Walt Disney is something that has a lot of similar elements. There's some pretty off-the-wall stuff like Israel going communist and allying with the Soviet Union because of Walt Disney's antisemitism along with the Civil Rights struggle turning grimdark (some parts of this are more plausible than others, but Nation of Islam becoming basically Al-Qaeda comes across as in poor taste). IOTL, Richard Nixon who had strongly antisemitic personal views actually was an ardent supporter of Israel as President and took a strong pro-Israel stance in foreign policy.
In my experience, the problem that both WoLWoT and FLaG have is that they tend to miss certain nuances of history and politics, and more importantly they tend to employ a lot of parallelism without recognising treating the historical eras they deal with as unique and having their own trends at work. As you brought up with FLaG: Howard Hughes starts what is basically Fox News in all but name. So in other words, we skip several decades of political development that turned the Republican Party into what it is today.
And Nation of Islam in WoLWoT basically becomes Al-Qaeda: completely ignoring the complex development of extremist movements in the Muslim world.
Postscript: Not to mention that the premise of Nation of Islam becoming a terrorist organisation has some fairly unfortunate undertones vis-a-vis Islam and race relations in general. Especially when we consider that it was Malcom X's turn to Islam that actually caused him to moderate his support of political violence IOTL. Although the TL does a good job of showing how worsening violence towards African-Americans spurs the rise of increasingly extreme voices, beneath it all, there's a certain distasteful message to it. We need to remember that African-Americans suffered horrendous violence IOTL and didn't turn into some kind of terrorist fifth column.
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- Pronouns
- He/Him
Yeah. I always want to do a let's read of Rumsfieldia but I'm always hampered by the fact that Fear and Loathing is not a bad read.
- Location
- Rex, NC, USA
So just leave FLaG alone and stick to Rumsfeldia.
- Location
- Rex, NC, USA
Guess what other TL has Portugal going Red? New Deal Coalition Retained.
Madam Carstein
Cheerful Middenlander Demoness
- Location
- Middenland
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Hers
I mean, when it comes down to it, we're all a lot more inclined to be forgiving of a well-written implausible timeline than a badly-written implausible timeline. Because we might not agree with the conclusions but at least it's a fun journey to take.
Guess what other TL has Portugal going Red? New Deal Coalition Retained.
Sounds about right.
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- Location
- East Coast
But you need the one to get to the other.
To be fair, I'd argue--and have always argued--that the flaws of Rumsfeldia are present in FLaG, just not to the same extent, so that the writing largely papers them over.
At least, early on. I'd argue that the later portions of the timeline are very much a preview of Rumsfeldia's brand of... fun.
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- Location
- Cibao Wilayet, Caliphate of Quisqueya
In the last few chapters the social instability is so bad several states stop listening to the federal government. Ironically seeing the US gets so bad is what spurs Europe and the Soviets to improve themselves, which I found a bit funny.
Norseman
Entirely Wholesome
Some of my cringe is technologically related (and I will deliberately use online fiction as examples):
1. Technological Fashion
This is the idea that the reason that we use certain technologies instead of others is a cultural, fashion statement sort of thing. So we did not start using cannon instead of rockets in the 19th century because cannons worked better, but because that's just the path we went down for no particular reason. Often this is combined with the idea that inventions were rejected because they were not invented here etc, etc.
2. Nine Mothers Giving Birth in A Month (Or If You Fund It You Could Build It)
This is the idea (similar to above) that if you could only get enough funding for something it could be made to work. Like the magical orbit mass drivers in the 1990s in Anglo-American Nazi War. Or the magical late Victorian rockets of Green Antarctica. Or the magical high altitude high speed jets of The Big One. Though here I will actually say that The Big One is, early on, more realistic by far, since at least you can actually build functional high speed high altitude jets. I am pretty sure that the Tsalal rockets and the AANW mass drivers are flat out impossible given the technological level of the world they are in.
Other examples (less egregious) are things like early Victorian steamcars or steamcars in general; the difference engine; earlier breechloaders; rockets instead of cannons etc. In most cases immense resources across multiple countries were put into making similar devices it's just that english speaking people only know about the most famous examples in English speaking countries (for instance there was Per Georg Scheutz that had similar ideas to Babbage).
These technologies failed not because of stodgy officials, but because it just was not possible to make them work properly at the time.
3. Monkey Don't See, Hear, Or Do
Three big offenders here are Green Antarctica, AANW, and The Big One. In the first place the western powers appear entirely oblivious to the power and significance of Tsalal rocketry, to the point where Tsalal fleets can wipe out the Royal Navy without breathing heavy. For AANW and TBO a massive nuclear and air force program is completely hidden from the Nazis, who either don't notice it or fail to take any sensible steps to prevent it.
This is basically where a technology is mass deployed on a massive scale, consuming a sizeable proportion of GDP for years on end, and yet powers with an obvious interest in such things fail to take notice or develop countermeasures.
4. Monkey See, Monkey Do
On the other hand there is this belief that if HUMAN BEINGS can SEE AMAZING TECHNOLOGY the we can COPY IT BECAUSE WE KNOW IT CAN BE DONE! The most frustrating examples of this is not pulp fiction, but internet stories. Imagine that you grabbed a computer scientist from 1985 and took them to 2019, then showed him a working computer, let him know of the specs, and sent him back in time. Would he (or she) be able to replicate anything?
Some stuff sure. He'd know a bit about good GUI, he'd know that multi-core processors would at some time become useful. But other than that? Well there is not much he could do.
Now imagine dropping a fully functional F-16 into Victorian Britain. Could they copy it in 10 years? 20? 50? Very doubtful, the technology is so beyond them that they'd have serious trouble just understanding what it does. And that is with a complete example to take apart and study, not simply being aware that the technology exists.
1. Technological Fashion
This is the idea that the reason that we use certain technologies instead of others is a cultural, fashion statement sort of thing. So we did not start using cannon instead of rockets in the 19th century because cannons worked better, but because that's just the path we went down for no particular reason. Often this is combined with the idea that inventions were rejected because they were not invented here etc, etc.
2. Nine Mothers Giving Birth in A Month (Or If You Fund It You Could Build It)
This is the idea (similar to above) that if you could only get enough funding for something it could be made to work. Like the magical orbit mass drivers in the 1990s in Anglo-American Nazi War. Or the magical late Victorian rockets of Green Antarctica. Or the magical high altitude high speed jets of The Big One. Though here I will actually say that The Big One is, early on, more realistic by far, since at least you can actually build functional high speed high altitude jets. I am pretty sure that the Tsalal rockets and the AANW mass drivers are flat out impossible given the technological level of the world they are in.
Other examples (less egregious) are things like early Victorian steamcars or steamcars in general; the difference engine; earlier breechloaders; rockets instead of cannons etc. In most cases immense resources across multiple countries were put into making similar devices it's just that english speaking people only know about the most famous examples in English speaking countries (for instance there was Per Georg Scheutz that had similar ideas to Babbage).
These technologies failed not because of stodgy officials, but because it just was not possible to make them work properly at the time.
3. Monkey Don't See, Hear, Or Do
Three big offenders here are Green Antarctica, AANW, and The Big One. In the first place the western powers appear entirely oblivious to the power and significance of Tsalal rocketry, to the point where Tsalal fleets can wipe out the Royal Navy without breathing heavy. For AANW and TBO a massive nuclear and air force program is completely hidden from the Nazis, who either don't notice it or fail to take any sensible steps to prevent it.
This is basically where a technology is mass deployed on a massive scale, consuming a sizeable proportion of GDP for years on end, and yet powers with an obvious interest in such things fail to take notice or develop countermeasures.
4. Monkey See, Monkey Do
On the other hand there is this belief that if HUMAN BEINGS can SEE AMAZING TECHNOLOGY the we can COPY IT BECAUSE WE KNOW IT CAN BE DONE! The most frustrating examples of this is not pulp fiction, but internet stories. Imagine that you grabbed a computer scientist from 1985 and took them to 2019, then showed him a working computer, let him know of the specs, and sent him back in time. Would he (or she) be able to replicate anything?
Some stuff sure. He'd know a bit about good GUI, he'd know that multi-core processors would at some time become useful. But other than that? Well there is not much he could do.
Now imagine dropping a fully functional F-16 into Victorian Britain. Could they copy it in 10 years? 20? 50? Very doubtful, the technology is so beyond them that they'd have serious trouble just understanding what it does. And that is with a complete example to take apart and study, not simply being aware that the technology exists.
Coiler
ROURKE
This specific part is at least somewhat more plausible, given A: WWII Germany's er, "iffy" track record with intelligence and B: Their stretched-to-breaking already, limited-resource war economy which makes countermeasures more technically difficult.
Madam Carstein
Cheerful Middenlander Demoness
- Location
- Middenland
- Pronouns
- She/Her/Hers
I would say more than a bit iffy: British intelligence turned every single Nazi spy in the UK and when the Enigma code was broken, the Third Reich never became aware of it.
So honestly, I can imagine Nazi intelligence flying totally blind as to this sort of thing.
- Location
- The Midlands.
Arguably it's even worse than that. They didn't bother to notice that the head of their intelligence service had turned against them until the July bomb plot, by which time he'd spent pretty much the entire war actively working against them.
- Location
- USS Enterprise CV-6
To be fair that was with Soviet supplied groups though IIRC.Guess what other TL has Portugal going Red? New Deal Coalition Retained.
Anchises
Le Charismeur
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Said radicalization is very forced though.
Rumsfeldia's Rumsfeld basically is the extreme parody of a Tea Party-Neocon crossover.
Drew is basically working through his anger with the contemporary Republican party.
A chaotic 70s would have brought forward a very different brand of Republican radicalism. Especially because Spiro Agnew discredited most of the conservative ideas that the Neocons relied upon.
It would have been far more interesting to see how the Nixon-era Republicans would have radicalized.
- Location
- A secret place
I suspect, that Drew is driven by opposition to Operation Iraqi Freedom. Rumsfeld was the mastermind of Operation Iraqi Freedom.
The utter implausibility of Rumsfeldia is sad, because I liked Gumbo. Gumbo was a dystopia, but a believable dystopia. China became a Khmer Rouge-style nightmare in Gumbo, but the rest of the world was, despite being worse off than in OTL, not totally fucked up. Gumbo was basically just the OTL 1970's being worse. Gumbo was a soft dystopia except China, while Rumsfeldia was a hard dystopia. A soft dystopia is, when the world is worse off than in OTL, but not really horrible. It is similar to a soft utopia, which is, when the world is better off than in OTL, but still far from perfect. Drew gave no convincing reason for the sudden transition from the soft dystopia of Gumbo to the hard dystopia of Rumsfeldia.
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Re: Green Antarctica cringe: also the freaky medical stuff and casual mutilation the Tsalal get up to, especially the Cold Islanders, though to be fair with them it's hard to tell how much is in-universe embellishment. There's a reason no real culture views the human body as a trivially deconstructible machine, and it's not just morality and squick. Your malnourished immune-compromised slaves will die of infections if you cut out their eyes because they "work in the dark so they don't need them anymore" Iskr, that seems kind of wasteful and also those germs will spread to your people who are constantly doing questionably sanitary things like mutilating their faces and then wearing human skin face masks.
Really, the Tsalal should have horrible problems with disease given their combination of unsanitary lifestyles and extreme inbreeding (which weakens collective disease resistance). And they have a grimmer version of the "libertarianism is not actually a good social system for a space colony" issue.
I don't think I'd call Green Antarctica the most cringeworthy alternate history I ever read, but it's definitely got a big "these people do not suffer the realistic costs of their way of doing things, at all" problem.
The Draka had the same issue. As I recall, the Spartans (who the Draka are roughly modernized and "amped up" versions of) had to be cautious with foreign adventurism because it was risky to take too much of their manpower away from keeping the Helots down. Going by that once they ran out of easy conquests a culture like the Draka should actually expand fairly conservatively and be almost timid as a geopolitical actor (in ironic contrast with their macho culture and self-image). The Draka just conquer tens of millions of square kilometers of land and huge chunks of the world population in a few years no problem.
Mopman43
Mountain-Hermit of Nitpeak
- Location
- Vermont
During the Peloponnesian War, there was an incident where Sparta considered a captive force of a couple hundred Spartans as a significant enough issue to be worth accepting peace with Athens under unfavorable terms in exchange for their release.
- Location
- USS Enterprise CV-6
Honestly the Draka never even should've gotten past the equator at best. Also India leaving the allies even though they knew the moment they did the Draka would invade. Basically everyone but the Draka was drinking lead paint it felt like.
Really it would make more sense for the Tsalal to be fastidiously clean and have very strong purity laws/taboos as a cultural adaptation to their collective weakness to contagious disease. If you want to make that dystopian, extrapolate from that bit in one of the early chapters about a lethally enforced taboo against touching the wrong kind of animal.
I thought of mentioning that. Definitely one of the single most eyeroll-inducing things in the timeline as I remember. Being stuck between the ocean and a land border with the Draka should really, really, really radically change people's strategic calculations, priorities, and visceral sense of who their friends and enemies are. If anything Indians, Southeast Asians, Japanese, and British should be the most pro-Alliance people; they just have to look at a world map to see a viscerally terrifying picture. Central and South America, where the Draka are a relatively distant threat on the other side of comfortingly wide oceans, is where the Alliance would be more likely to fracture.
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Baron Steakpuncher
Hopeful Idealist
- Location
- Australia
I read a TL somewhere where fucking Rommel ended up imprisoned by Israel then released to be its king if he could beat the arabs for them.
Like, the fuck?
Like, the fuck?